"BUT, he was the one God had chosen, and he had to accept that, and submit to God’s will. "

This post ties in with the previous post on the Branch Davidians.  This is a quote by Neil Godfrey of the Vridar blog. Neil is a former Worldwide Church of God member who runs an excellent blog on "Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science."

It’s a story of dashed idealism, sordid and cruel moments, the power of belief, and too much that I can personally relate to. I watched the TV mini-series on the Waco story late last year and, as I expected, found myself too easily able to identify with some of the followers. My experience was with the Worldwide Church of God. Not that that was my only experience with religion, but it was the one that echoed aspects of the Branch Davidians history. 

One moment in the movie that left me shaking my head in all too believable “disbelief” was when one of the most loyal followers of Dave Koresh was challenged by an outsider pointing to some of Koresh’s blatant moral failings. With unshakable faith the loyal follower replied that he wished with all his being that God had chosen anyone else except Vernon Howell (who took the name Dave Koresh) to be his prophet because he could scarcely imagine a less likeable person, . . .  BUT, he was the one God had chosen, and he had to accept that, and submit to God’s will. 

How often did the ministry in the Worldwide Church of God, especially the upper leadership, find opportunities to preach the message of King David, a “man after God’s own heart”, chosen by God, and David’s moral failings, his adultery, his murders, made no difference. Those who rebelled against this David when he was getting older and losing his grip on the kingdom were the ones led by Satan against “God’s anointed”.

The hypocrisy, the self-serving message, it’s all sickening in hindsight. But that’s how many of us were. If it hadn’t been the Armstrongs I suppose in another time and place it could have been Vernon Howell and it could have been me there. The one “saving grace” for the Worldwide Church of God was that it’s top leader was old and had no desire to give up his comforts or put himself in any serious physical risks. Those things come so much more easily to one in his early 30s. (For a number of years we were seriously expecting our leader to be given a vision or sign that would be the signal for us to “flee” to a “place in the wilderness”.)  Waco (the background story)

The Story Behind Waco’s Tragedy | James Haught

The Story Behind Waco’s Tragedy | James Haught

"As we go about our daily lives, it’s unsettling to realize that some people among us are capable of believing far-out fantasies, 

enough even to die for them."

(Here is the fascinating story of how the Branch Davidians evolved from the Seventh Day Adventist movement, which formed after the William Miller fiasco.s of 1843 - 1844.  This is also the heritage of Armstrongism. Given the fact how crazy some of the men are who are leading present-day splinter cults in the Church of God, Armstrongism has the potential to face a future tragedy of massive scale.)

By James A. Haught

Most Americans remember the historic 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian cult compound at Waco, Texas, which left eighty cultists and four federal officers dead. But did you know that the story actually began 150 years ago with a famous fiasco?

Since watching weird religion is my hobby, I’ll tell you the tale:

In the 1830s, a New England Baptist preacher, William Miller, computed from obscure prophecies in the Book of Daniel that Jesus would return to Earth between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844. Miller began warning of the approaching apocalypse. By the 1840s, he had drawn nearly 100,000 followers.

When the fateful time arrived, the “Millerites” prayed and prayed – but nothing happened. Then Miller re-examined the Bible verses and announced that he had erred; the correct date would be Oct. 22, 1844. As it neared, many of the faithful gave away their possessions and waited on hilltops for the heavens to open. Again, zilch.

Many Millerites lost their faith, but a hard core held firm. Some of them insisted that doomsday actually had occurred on Oct. 22, but it was a preparatory event in heaven that would be followed soon by Jesus bursting forth onto Earth. This group formed the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

As the Seventh-day Adventists grew more than 3 million strong, some members felt that the church wasn’t holy enough. In the 1930s, a Los Angeles Adventist, Victor Houteff, said Jesus wouldn’t return until an ultra-pure church was ready to greet him. So Houteff opened a Waco commune for pure believers, calling them Davidian Seventh-day Adventists.

He died in 1955, and the Davidians prayerfully awaited his resurrection. When it didn’t happen, his widow Florence took over. She proclaimed that the Second Coming would be on Easter Day, 1959. Hundreds of followers around America quit their jobs, sold their belongings, and hurried to Waco for the rapture. Wrong again.

Once more, the disillusioned departed, and a hard core persisted. A member named Ben Roden took command and named the survivors Branch Davidians. He died in 1978, leaving the commune, called Mount Carmel, to his widow Lois and son George.

Soon afterward, a 23-year-old Texas Adventist named Vernon Howell, a ninth-grade dropout, moved into the compound (and reportedly became the lover of the 67-year-old widow). He had hypnotic charisma, electrifying the others with his revelations of the coming apocalypse.

He married the 14-year-old daughter of a commune couple – but soon declared that God had commanded him to establish a House of David, in which he was to have as many wives as King David. He bedded more than a dozen commune females, one merely 11, another 50. He gave each a Star of David to wear as an emblem that she had been chosen by the king.

After Lois Roden died in 1986, her son George vied with Howell for command. Roden won, temporarily. Howell took his followers and left Mount Carmel, wandering as nomads. Then in 1987, Howell’s band returned to challenge Roden for leadership.

Roden proposed an epic contest: From a graveyard, he dug up the corpse of an 85-year-old woman, and declared that whoever could resurrect her would be the true prophet of Mount Carmel. Howell evaded, and urged police to arrest Roden for corpse abuse.

Then Howell and seven armed supporters crept into Mount Carmel in after-midnight darkness. Roden grabbed his Uzi machine gun and engaged the intruders in a firefight. He was wounded slightly in the hand and chest. Howell’s band was charged with attempted murder, and released on bond.

Next, Roden was jailed for contempt of court because he filed grossly obscene motions in an unrelated case. While Roden was locked up, Howell moved his followers back into the compound and took over.

Their subsequent trial for attempted murder ended in acquittals. The dethroned Roden later killed a man and was put in a state mental hospital.

Reigning as sole prophet, Howell preached that he was an angel sent by God to implement the Second Coming. He said God ordained him to move to Israel and convert the Jews, which would trigger the Battle of Armageddon and make Earth a paradise for the surviving faithful. Howell visited Israel – but failed to convert the Jews.

Traveling around the globe, the dynamic young prophet attracted converts who sold their possessions, gave all their money to him, and followed him to Waco to live in the compound. In 1989, he proclaimed that all women in the compound were his brides, and the rest of the men must remain celibate. Some married couples rebelled and left. Others, utterly dominated by him, obeyed.

In 1990, Howell changed his name to David Koresh and began preaching that the great doomsday battle would occur in Texas. He and his lieutenants bought hundreds of guns and machine guns, plus ammunition, plus gas masks and other war supplies.

Federal agents heard that the commune contained illegal machine guns, and took steps to disarm the cult. The siege and its outcome are a well-known American tragedy. Surrounded zealots allowed themselves and their children to burn to death, rather than walk out to safety.

The Waco saga has entered history, like Jonestown, the witch-hunts and other bizarre episodes. As we go about our daily lives, it’s unsettling to realize that some people among us are capable of believing far-out fantasies, enough even to die for them.

(Haught is editor of West Virginia’s largest newspaper, The Charleston Gazette, and a senior editor of Free Inquiry. This article previously appeared in Free Inquiry, summer 1994.)

Dr Robert Kuhn interviews Sean Carroll on Atheism and the Universe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lawrence_Kuhn#Other_affiliations

Early career[edit]

Kuhn first came to prominence in 1972 when "Why the Vast Difference between Animal Brain and Human Mind?" appeared in The Plain Truth magazine published by Ambassador College, an institution of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG). The WCG's Systematic Theology Project^[6] was coordinated by Kuhn, but later banned by WCG Founder Herbert W. Armstrong. Kuhn severed his connection to the WCG and its affiliates, including the Ambassador International Cultural Foundation (classical music concerts, featuring musicians including Vladimir Horowitz and Luciano Pavarotti), which Kuhn had created and managed.

"Although if They Disrespect ME, They Disrespect God" and too..."I am the Elijah to Come"

….and may as well throw in, That Prophet

David C Pack

December 12, 1998

SAID.....

"I hope you'll remember it enough to quote it right back to me"

Note:  Can do...

 "I want to make a statement about...me...

 Note:  Now there's a rare topic...

"Now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now.."

Note: But since you did tell us in '98, it is time to repost  it again

"I am telling you  if I go off into strange ideas,  misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me."

Note: That's why I am reposting this

" I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying?"

Note: Evidently not...

"Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren?"

Note: Evidently not...

" Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And  I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me..."

Note: I am quoting it right back to you Dave. Is anybody listening there in RCG?

But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."

Note: I disagree....and yes you have

Dave Pack: I Am THAT Prophet of Deuteronomy 18

God is going to work through another man like he did Moses.  I believed it was Christ for 50 years, but...I was setting you up a couple weeks ago about who could speak and every last soul on earth would hear what he said, if they didn't do it, billions of people, they would be destroyed. Ripped out of mankind.  Here is who that prophet is.  There are NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES! He is Elijah the prophet (Me).


If they disrespect me, they disrespect God.

David C Pack: More Absurd Claims "Proving" He Is Elijah

If you thought the video from the other day was totally absurd, wait till you hear more claims that Dave Pack makes about himself.  It is going to be a matter of weeks before he proclaims himself as a "christ."  That is about the only thing left for him to claim.

His new claims:

• Attended college in the "Crown City" of Pasadena...apparently makes him "Kingly"
• Born in 1948, the same year as Modern Israel
• For the last 26 years lived near the city of Summit...which is 20 some miles from Akron, which is named after Ekron which is 20 some miles from Jerusalem. 
• Lives in a city founded by Elijah Wadsworth...Which validates Packs claim as Elijah...WUT???
• I have the name David and I am a descendant of King David
• Lives in a State with the motto "With God all things are possible"

It's Funny How One Insect Can Damage So Much Grain!

The title of this post was borrowed from the lyrics of Elton John's Empty Garden (a reference to the senseless assassination of John Lennon). This line, nevertheless, seemed to me to precisely convey the very negative impact that one Herbert W Armstrong had on me and my family.

I hope that what follows will serve as a cautionary tale for anyone who might be interested in joining one of the many splinter groups that formed as a consequence of the disintegration of Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God (or any other group which claims to have THE TRUTH). It is also my hope that what follows will serve those who are currently involved in one of those splinter groups and be a comfort to others who have left the movement.

I was introduced to the Worldwide Church as a small child in the mid-1960's by my father. He listened to HWA and his son, Garner Ted, on a small transistor radio that rested on the headboard of his bed. My younger brother and I would lie across the bed beside him and listen along to the "World Tomorrow" broadcast. Nevertheless, as my father was a divorced man with two small children and still living with his parents, he felt that he was unworthy and/or unable to make the necessary commitment to God and "His Church."

My father, however, never lost his conviction that HWA had rediscovered "TRUE" Christianity, and that he and his son were the only folks preaching the "TRUE" Gospel message. Among the more important elements of their message were their teachings that Christians should observe the Jewish Sabbath, eschew the observance of "pagan" holidays (e.g. Christmas, Easter, etc.), follow the dietary rules of the Old Testament, interpret the Bible literally and reject anything that wasn't specifically stated in Scripture, understand that God was "reproducing" Himself, and that the English speaking peoples of the earth represented the modern descendants of Israel. And, despite his reluctance to formally join the group, my father believed and taught these "TRUTHS" to me and my brother.

As a teen, I began to study my father's belief system independently of him and in greater detail. I studied Armstrong's booklets and "Bible Correspondence Course" and eventually became convinced that my father had been right about Armstrong and his "TRUTHS." I began attending the Worldwide Church on Saturdays and refused to eat any "unclean" meats (pork, shellfish, etc.). I also stopped celebrating Christmas (which had been a very important family celebration prior to that). Thus, within a relatively short span of time, I had convinced Armstrong's ministry that I had swallowed their teachings hook, line and sinker and was consequently baptized at the tender age of seventeen.

Looking back on those events, I am amazed at how selfish, self-centered and bigoted I was. My poor grandparents adjusted to my new religion without protest. My grandmother stopped cooking with pork. My grandfather left the Christmas decorations in the attic and pretended not to mind the sudden disappearance of his favorite holiday. They also quickly accepted and adjusted to the fact that I would no longer do my chores on God's Sabbath (we were commanded to rest on that day) - though my grandfather was still working full-time and my grandmother had severe rheumatoid arthritis and numerous other health problems). My younger brother ceased to get Christmas gifts.

All of this was further complicated by the fact that I was a closeted homosexual desperately trying to deny the reality of who I was and to whom I was attracted. In Armstrongism, homosexuality was a wicked perversion - a willful choice to live a sinful life. Homosexuals were referred to from the pulpit as queers and sissies. Indeed, my own father had parroted this kind of language!

Needless to say, I certainly didn't want to disappoint God, break His commands or shame my father and grandparents with such behavior! Add to all of this the fact that HWA expected his followers to date within the church, and I was pretty much destined to be a very frustrated, unhappy and lonely young man.

Fate, however, intervened. After actively considering attending the church's private college (Ambassador College at their Pasadena, California headquarters), I made the decision to attend two public colleges. And, while attending one of them, I met a beautiful and intelligent young lady who was actually willing to talk to me and appeared to be interested in me! We began dating, and I began to imagine that I might be able to overcome the wickedness inside of me and have a "normal" life.

It wasn't long, however, until my conscience got the better of me. I was being a hypocrite. I was attending church and dating someone who wasn't a member! I confessed my sin to the ministry and was promptly disfellowshipped (a kind of excommunication).

I was terrified. The gates of hell yawned before me! I was on the outside of God's "ONE TRUE CHURCH." How could I survive being cut off from God and His people? I broke up with the young lady. She was bewildered, and I was a hot mess!

In the meantime, however, my father had remarried and joined the Church of God International (founded by Garner Ted after he was himself kicked out of his father's church). He wrote me and assured me that God had not abandoned me and told me that I should not lose hope. To make a long story short, I eventually reconciled with the girl and began attending my father's church.

Even so, my suppressed homosexuality did not magically disappear over the years that followed. Though I prayed about it constantly, averted my eyes and remained physically faithful to the splendid lady that I had married, my sexual orientation did not change. Hence, although we had two beautiful daughters together, the marriage eventually collapsed under the weight of my self-denial and awful secret.

To make matters worse, when I finally came out of the closet, my father revealed to me that he had always suspected that I was gay. Moreover, although I had been writing for church publications and speaking to their congregations for years, I was suddenly persona non grata, My father, who had by this time been a licensed minister of CGI for many years, not only supported the anti-gay sermons of his associates and friends, he also gave sermons along the same lines.

Thus, although my dad has assured me that he still loves me, he remains firmly convinced that the major components of Armstrong's teachings (including those against homosexuality) are THE TRUTH. As a consequence, my relationship with my father (once very close) has suffered tremendously.

And, even though I left the Worldwide Church in 1985, and Herbert Armstrong died less than a year later, the damage which he inflicted on me and my family is still being felt in February of 2019. Yes, it's funny how one insect can damage so much grain! 

By Miller Jones

Blog: God cannot be contained! Commentary on the endless possibilities of God