Philadelphia Church of God, Celitc Throne and New Place of Safety - Paran...The Gospel Message Has Never Been So Crazy!

The Philadelphia Church of God has pulled a lot of stunts over the decades but none of them compare to the claim they are now in the possession of the new coronation stone that their so-called "jesus" will return to sit upon.

They trecked off to Oregon and dug up a rock that Herbert Armstrong supposedly prayed at and dug it up and took it to the cult compound in Edmond, Oklahoma where it is now enshrined in a glass case resting on a royal purple base.

PCG is also obsessed with Celtic dancing and apparently considers this the dance of Kings that Jeremiah brought to Ireland when he and his daughters brought the ark to Hill Tara where they buried it. PCG sees it as their destiny to dig the ark up and take it along with Herb's prayer rock and have them ready for his "jesus" to come back and sit upon.

This Celtic crapfest mythology that they have latched on to is so important that they have commissioned a new play called Celtic Throne which they premiered in Edmond at Armstrong Auditorium and then took it to Branson, Missouri for a couple of shows.

Celtic Throne (Twitter)

In relation to this, Exit and Support had the following up:

GF said on January 15, 2017 (the day he called for a Church-wide fast): “I heard a strong voice. That had never happened to me before. This voice said, ‘There is a new stone of destiny and a new throne of David.’ ” (The New Throne of David by Gerald Flurry, Chap. 1, 2018)

Last month Brad Macdonald gave a Bible Study to members. Following is a partial transcript, including GF’s words. It was entitled, “The Urgent Need for Celtic Throne.” It also covers the Place of Safety being in Paran. (bolding mine)

Macdonald: “Celtic Throne is the United States and Britain in Prophecy performed as a dance show.”

“It’s about the New Throne of David. … Traces the throne of David on to America. Tells the story of the Davidic Covenant; … God’s relationship with America and Britain.” [see British Israelism: True or False?]

“The performance is spiritual. But to people in the world they won’t get any of that. We worked hard at this not being too spiritual. …If they aren’t religious they won’t be overwhelmed by a musical that isn’t too spiritual.”

“In June 2019 GF gave a sermon, ‘How the New Throne Changes God’s Work’ and that was turned into an article for the March-April 2020 Royal Vision.”

“In GF’s 2nd message at the FOT last year GF talked about Hebrews and the New Throne of David and probably for half of that message he talked about the Place of Safety, the 10,000 coming from Peran, and then he talked about the coronation and returning to the Place of Safety and the throne being transferred over.”

“But at the end of that sermon, he [GF] did something that I haven’t seen him do before. He stopped his sermon at 10 or 15 min earlier and he played this clip of the Irish Dancers dancing to this music that Brian Burns had written… That message, too, was written up in the March April Royal Vision.”

“This is what Mr.  Flurry got into in that 2nd Feast message last year: [reads the scripture in Jude 1:14 about how “behold, the Lord cometh with 10,000 of his saints.”]

“In the March-April Royal Vision, Mr. Flurry really digs down deep in these passages and to our time in the place of safety. It is an incredible article…we should all read and study that again.”

“Mr. Flurry explains things about the place of safety that I don’t think I’ve ever read before. …. But he gets us focused on the place of safety and on some of those details. Here’s a quote from that article [by GF]: (talking about the verse in Jude) “If Christ comes with these saints from Paran, that means before that time Christ will come personally to Peran. To what likely will be the place of safety.”

Wikipedia has this about Paran:

Biblical Paran[edit]

Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael into the Desert, illustration by Gustave Doré

The Wilderness or Desert of Paran is said to be the place where the Egyptian servant girl Hagar of Abraham's wife Sarah (Sarai) and wife to Abraham in Genesis 16:3 (who by her suggestion made his wife and bore him a son Ishmael) was sent into exile from Abraham's dwelling in Beersheba (Genesis 16:1). Hagar "departed, and strayed in the wilderness of Beer-sheba" (Genesis 21):

Then God opened her [Hagar's] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. (Genesis 21:19-22)

Paran is later mentioned in the Book of Numbers as a place where the Israelites temporarily settled during the Exodus:

Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (Numbers 10:12)^[1]

Paran again features in the opening lines of the Book of Deuteronomy: 

These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert beyond the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (Deuteronomy 1:1)

He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones, from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deuteronomy 33:2)

King David spent some time in the wilderness of Paran after Samuel died (1 Samuel 25:1).

1 Kings 11:17-18 states that when Hadad the Edomite fled from Edom to Egypt, he passed through Midian and Paran on the way to Egypt.

It is not certain precisely where the wilderness of Paran is to be located. It is often associated with Mount Sinai in Egypt, and there is some evidence that it may originally have referred to the southern portion of the Sinai Peninsula.^[2]

Exit and Support continues:

Macdonald: “To leave Peran, you have to go to Peran. So why would Christ visit the 10,000 in the Place of Safety in the Tribulation?”

GF continues: “In I Thes. 4 it says Christ will meet everyone in the air and bring them back to earth with Him. But here we learn that He will come from Peran with His 10,000.”

“Why the difference with this group of people? Well, Peran is where the new throne will be.” (refers to Isa 16)

Back to that article from GF. “When will Christ begin ruling from that throne? It certainly would seem he needs to already be ruling on it when He gets to earth. After all He is King of Kings. A King must have a throne. Where would He take control of that throne before He arrives? The most practical place seems to be the place of safety, where the people who have the new throne are. It seems the place of safety would be where Christ officially receives His throne.”

To demonstrate how sick Flurry and the COG is about this stupid old rock, they deem it necessary for Christ to return back to. As if Jesus needs a rock, particularly Herb's rock to descend to and be crowned upon.

“Imagine Jesus Christ Himself coming to where we are. Being crowned and receiving the throne we now have, and officially becoming King of Kings. Then taking those 10,000 saints with Him.” … Think about what sort of event; celebration is going to be attached to the throne being turned over.”

“Maybe think of it in the context of just David bringing the Ark into Jerusalem and how hard David worked the 2nd time to get it right; how hard he worked, even on his dance and choreographing this journey. … The Ark as we know symbolizes God’s throne.”

GF continues: “That is overwhelming to think about. … I’m not saying absolutely this will happen, but it looks like what Scripture indicates. It certainly fits the time frame beautifully. It seems this would be the main reason Christ would come to take the 10,000 to officially assume David’s throne. If so, what a dramatic role we have in the Second Coming. This should be most inspiring to God’s people.”

Goes to Luke 1. “We have a dramatic role in Jesus Christ’s second Coming. And God wants us to start thinking about that and God wants us to start preparing for that.”

According to Stephen Flurry, the apostate son of Gerald Flurry, the PCG and the world is right on the edge of the tribulation and that the work is DONE! 

“Just look at world events. SF said in a recent message, or Trumpet Daily, “We are on the outer edges of the Tribulation. We’re done! There is no going back. The world will not be the same. … we do have to work; we do have to plan for the future, but there’s no hope in the future of this world. Our hearts have to be in this Work; our hearts have to be in the Throne of David; our hearts and energies and hopes have to be in this moment when we turn the throne over to Jesus Christ, and then we come with Him from Peran. That’s all there is! There’s nothing left in the world. ‘This is where our minds really need to be and it’s hard because we’re physical…”

The Flurry clan then pulls a Dave Pack and threatens their members with losing their salvation unless they give all they have to the work. Right now that work is flying Flurry's grandkids back and forth Celtic dance shows.

“But we can’t be consumed by [the physical]; … they can’t come before God. They can’t come before preparing for the place of safety. They can’t come before getting ready to go to the place of safety. To think, you and I are going to be a part of this, in just a few months, a year, or two or three or four. It’s really incredible.”

Reads Luke 1:30-32. “It’s incredible to think that you–YOU–will be there in that moment, if it’s the way Mr. Flurry explains it. He did say it may not happen exactly this way. But if it does and if it goes the way the Scriptures indicate, you’ll be there when Christ is given the throne of the father David. We need to start thinking about the coronation, and what might be involved in the coronation. And Celtic Throne helps get us ready for the Coronation, even if it just gets us thinking about the throne of David, and thinking about the history of the throne of David, and getting us excited for the throne of David. This show is going to help get the church ready for this moment.”

“He [God] really does want us thinking about the New Throne of David. He wants us thinking about the return of Jesus Christ. He wants us thinking about sitting on the throne of David with Jesus Christ. He wants us preparing for the place of safety. And preparing to play some role, whatever that might be, in turning David’s throne over to Jesus Christ.”

Says they are gonna create an album and a DVD. Tells how they’ve got some merchandise. “We have T-shirts and coffee mugs.”

“Celtic Throne declares the name of Israel. [Voice raises] Celtic Throne DECLARES the AWESOME — the AWESOME history of Ephraim and Manasseh — history that we should never apologize for! Mistakes have been made to be sure because all humans have human nature. But we can’t apologize for the 2,520 year promise. We can’t apologize for the way God’s worked with these nations.”

Could Herbert Armstrong have ever imagined that the end time would require the church to be putting on stage shows to get the gospel message out? Armstrongism gets stupider by the moment.

“As Mr. Flurry has been telling us the past 2 or 3 weeks, we have to uphold that history and declare the history of Israel …because GOD is involved in that history! That’s what makes it so special.”

[voice goes back to normal] “And Celtic Throne I think plays a role in that and that is something to get really excited about and to support and throw your weight behind–and everybody has. We’ve got to declare the name of Israel and we’ll do that hopefully through this show.”

“Celtic Throne will bring the New Throne of David alive. This is what GF said in one of his recent messages. This is something God’s people have been hearing about for decades. Yet, as we get closer to it, Christ is putting together the pieces so we can understand it better.

“Celtic Throne is your story; it’s your history; it your future. It tells the story of your throne. But it’s also much bigger than just us. It carries a message of hope for the world. It carries a message about God’s family, it carries a message about the incredible human potential, and it carries a message about the New Throne of David.”

[end of Bible study]

This message was insane and full of pride as it focused on GF’s New Throne of David and the Place of Safety. It shows how PCG does not put the emphasis on the Person of Christ, and His love, grace and mercy toward His children, but focuses instead on what great things members will be involved in. The emphasis is all on the New Throne of David and how members will have it in the Place of Safety (which is in Paran) and hand it over to Christ. (Read July 1, 2019 letter: Gerald Flurry’s New Throne of David.)

When has the Church of God EVER put its focus upon Christ? All we ever heard and still hear is law-keeping and punishment. Jesus is never part of the picture and when he is, he usually gets the last couple paragraphs of an article.

The Church of God has been taken over by crazy men who have self-appointed themselves, lied through their teeth trying to prove their prophethood status, spiritually abused members, dreamed incredibly stupid dreams, and tried to claim they were from God, and much much more silliness.

What an absolute embarassment the Church of God movement has become.

EXCLUSIVE Another RCG Headquarters' Minister Leaves, Blasting Dave Pack's Prophetic Confusion in a Letter to RCG Ministry

Good morning, ministers and wives.

I trust this email finds you well.

When God called me in 2008, I never thought I'd find myself writing an email like this one. But if we can agree that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor . 14:33), then we can also agree that what's currently being taught by our pastor general is not of God.

To say that there's a lot of confusion in the Church would be an understatement. Brethren no longer know what to believe because they simply can't keep things straight. If you don't know this already, talk to the brethren about prophecy. Or for that matter, talk to a fellow-minister.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY THE SPIRITS WHETHER THEY ARE OF GOD: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ... (6) We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God doesn't hear us. HEREBY KNOW WE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR” (1 John 4:1, 6).

John wrote a lot about truth and when we read the books he was inspired to write, we can know it is truth. But, we are also supposed to be able to distinguish truth from the spirit of error! If dozens of failed prophetic scenarios is not the spirit of error, then I don't know what is! What does it matter if the spirit of error is being introduced by the top man or someone else? The spirit of error is the spirit of error!

We frequently say in the Church that we shouldn't get hung up on prophecy being wrong. However, technically speaking, anything taught is doctrine. It's the very definition of the word. So there is false doctrine being taught. And besides that, we often touch on foundational doctrines and change them to fit the latest prophetic narrative anyway.

For example, we recently said that the God that Moses , Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw was the Father (Ex. 24:9-10.) But how can we ignore plain scriptures like John 1:18? “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared [Him].” What allows us to sweep aside SUCH A SIMPLE scripture like that? When establishing doctrine, are we not to start with the simplest scriptures first?

Our understanding of who and what God is has changed dramatically in recent months. When is the last time we properly referred to God as a family? Do we really think that the most spectacular era of God's Church, the Philadelphian era, who God said NOTHING bad about in Revelation, had the wrong understanding of who and what God is? Did our predecessors not know God in the same way that we now do? On logic alone, it's inconceivable!

Then there are the verses that we flat out ignore. 2 Cor. 5:10 says that we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ. But not us? Somehow we've made it already? Most, if not all of you, care for more of God's sheep than I do. When you heard Rev. 22:11 explained (“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still...”), did you honestly think that everyone in your pastorate was sealed at that time? That people were done growing? That it was time to relax? What spirit influenced such a thing to be taught?

As ministers, we represent the Church. Especially the Headquarters ministry. I, for one, can't look brethren in the eyes anymore and explain the latest prophetic scenario to them. What's taught is plain strange at times. We always start with the belief that there's no way Christ could come beyond the current week we're in and then we wrest the scriptures to fit that bias.

I want to go on record to say that I'm not following anyone or any group. Some of you may know that an old friend of mine, Riordan Dennis, was removed from the Church recently. I made the mistake of being too friendly with Riordan after he left and was ultimately used by him, and the group that he's a part of, in a way that appeared to lend credence to their movement. I do not follow them. I have no interest in attending a splinter that has compromised on the truth of God even more than The Restored Church of God has. I don't claim to know how the prophetic pieces of the jigsaw puzzle fit.

Let me state that it's wonderful to be here at Headquarters. I love the home we're in. I love living on this beautiful campus. I love you and all the friends I have here and in the wider Church. I love the job I have. I love being the minister over Pittsburgh. But at the end of the day, THE TRUTH HAS TO MATTER MORE THAN ANY OF THIS! It's the only reason we came to the Church in the first place.

I understand that this email will likely lead to me being fired. I'm OK with that. I hope you will also stand up for the truth as ministers of God, no matter how uncomfortable that might be at times. I trust that God will sort out this mess in His time, however, I wasn't prepared to look Christ in the eyes and explain to Him why I didn't stand up for the truth and for His people.

In Christ's Service,

Alex J. Groen

Dave Pack: Do Not Loathe My Position As Apostle When I Change, Clarify and Make Complete U-Turns

For decades, the Church held fast to an overly simplistic prophetic timeline. While true after a fashion, this understanding either ignored or misunderstood other verses. Christians were to faithfully hold on to this old thinking as it was “present truth” (II Pet. 1:12).

Over the last few years, God has greatly expanded our prophetic knowledge. Instead of using a vision or a visitation from an angel, the God who said He changes not (Mal. 3:6) chose to reveal prophetic truth to His Church through an apostle! Appreciate the significance of this. God wants His apostle, guided by the Holy Spirit, to put together the grand prophetic puzzle.

Adjusting decades of incomplete thinking is not easy. God anticipated there would be moments of clarification or, at times, complete U-turns in understanding. Therefore, He tells us in I Thessalonians 5:20 to not despise, loathe or feel contempt toward this process.

How does “prove all things” apply in this situation?

Led by an apostle, the entire Church must prove the prophetic truths God is revealing. In other words, we may have to “test” several scenarios before coming to a full understanding of God’s intent.

Most are familiar with proving established doctrine. Far fewer are familiar with the process of how doctrine is initially revealed to the Church. The latter is not always a clean process.

“Proving all things” in light of prophetic understanding is not an invitation for heresy—anything contrary to the official teachings of the Church. For individuals to keep or throw out prophetic doctrines at their own discretion would lead to chaos at worse and confusion at best. It would also violate speaking the same things and being of the same mind and judgment.

Avoid going out on a limb and taking a “twiggy” approach to doctrinal understanding. Stick to prophetic doctrines as they are being taught.

Since prophecy is only to be known in part until fulfilled (I Cor. 13:9, 12), there is inevitably a process of trial and error when seeking complete understanding. God went so far as to record the mistakes of previous apostles to comfort future leaders and those who look to them for guidance.

Dave Pack 

Dave Pack's Kingdom of God...Wait till you see how it all plays out...

Double click to enlarge

If you thought Bwana Bob was pulling things out of the air or his a.... to preach as truth, wait till you see Dave Pack's chart above.

Jesus comes for the second time to Wadsworth where he and Dave will set up a new kingdom with houses and lands. Dave, JC, and a select few of the righteous will dwell in peace and harmony for 3 1/2 years. Then all hell breaks loose and there is 16 - 18 months of hell as the man of sin is revealed and sorrows rain down.

As the time of sorrows is in full swing, Dave's JC comes for the 3rd time! Poor guy, he has returned so many times that I doubt even he knows where he is in the grand scheme of things. During this time all the sheep and goats will be judged and Satan and his demons will be cast back into heaven!  This all lasts for  3 1/2 years.  WTH?  Is there no end to the stupidity that comes out of Dave and the rest of the apostate splinter leaders?

Then another 3 1/2 years dawns and we find out that Satan and his demons have pissed off God so much that he casts them back down to earth to wreak havoc. Bwana Bob will start sacrifices and commit the abomination of desolation in the temple, while Ron and Laura Weinland will be witlessly witnessing in Jerusalem.

Such a glorious time to be a COG member and be alive to witness all of this greatness unfold before their eyes!

After 3 1/2 years of this mess, God returns!  Woo Hoo!

Millennial bliss happens and everyone since Adam will be raised.

Dave and Jesus will be ruling from Wadsworth while Herbert Armstrong will be in charge of re-educating the world with resurrected Pasadena ministers and evangelists who will be teaching the world how life should be while the rest of the COG members are off on other planets ruling their worlds with iron-fisted millennial bliss.

Isn't being a Church of God member a great thing!

Zerubbabel Circumcises His Son And Offers Him Up To Yahweh

Zerubbabel ( Michael Noordhoek ) has a new video up and it is crazier than hell.  He talks about circumcising his son and being will to sacrifice him and offer him up to Yahweh.  I don't know if this is the son he produced with his daughter that he bragged about a couple years ago or not.

He goes on to say it has been 436 days since he got out of jail.

Talks about his new magic shoes of affliction, and a box he got from Amazon, a B-36 box that corresponds to Issac being alive 36 years.

His god, who has 14 eyes, has been showing him just how things are.

He has been sent by his god now for 9 1/2 years and no one believes him or god.

This is the face of Armstrongism at its worst.

This will be Bob Thiel in 10 years after his string of prophetic failures drives him over the edge.

Brenda Denzler: "...the day I was disfellowshipped, it felt like the earth literally weaved and wobbled under my feet"

What Doesn't Kill You Makes You

One survivor on "New Normals" and living through "apocalyptic" times that reveal who we really are.

BY BRENDA DENZLER

PUBLISHED MARCH 31, 2020  www.curetoday.com 

I have faced the apocalypse three times, now, in my life. I managed to come through the first two. Not unscathed…but I did survive. However, the world that I knew afterward was not the same one I'd known before.

The first time it happened I was 30 years old. When I was in my early teens, I'd joined a large fundamentalist religious cult that preached the end of the world by about 1975. Of course, that didn't happen, but personally, it more or less did. I wound up leaving the church in 1982 — getting kicked out actually. As I walked over to a neighbor's house the day I was disfellowshipped, it felt like the earth literally weaved and wobbled under my feet. It was a blow to lose the world I'd known for fifteen years. All the things I thought I knew, all the things I'd done because that was just what good, righteous people do…. All gone. Life went on, however, a new and different life than the one I'd thought I'd have.

The second time was in 2009 when I was diagnosed with inflammatory breast cancer. Another little apocalypse, but this time it challenged not just my worldview and my way of being in the world, but my life itself. Like the first time, I survived this, too. I was lucky. But also like the first time, my life was never the same. This time, though, there was a name for what I was facing — a "new normal."

Today, I'm in the middle of the third apocalypse of my life: the COVID-19 pandemic. No…that's not quite right. This time "we" are in a little apocalypse, not just me by myself. And we're not in the middle of it at all — we've only just begun.

Our way of being in the world is changing every day. Things we thought we knew, things that we thought were truths and steadfast parts of our lives that we could pretty much rely upon, are being revealed as only provisionally true or frankly untrue. Almost everything is in flux for us now, like the ground that moved under my feet decades ago when my personal world shifted on its axis.

We will, however, find a collective new normal. Eventually. I've never liked the term. It makes it sound like everything gets OK again. It's maybe just a little different, but it's basically just like it was before. Before the world fell apart due to a belief system collapse or due to a cancer diagnosis. That's not true though. As many cancer survivors know, a "new normal" always means leaving something behind, something that you inevitably miss.

I miss the certainty and reassurance of being a fundamentalist — of having my world consist of blacks and whites, wrongs and rights cosmic checklists that I can mark off to make sure that I'm OK and in God's good graces. I miss the way I felt good before cancer, a feeling of well-being and the ability to do things that are now beyond me, not to mention the assumption (false though it was) that the future only holds more of the same.

Today, I also miss the way I lived before COVID-19. Coming and going as I pleased, knowing that if I went to the grocery store I'd be able to get whatever I needed, not worrying about whether my high-risk status dooms me to my worst nightmare: the choice between drowning in the waste products from my own COVID-infected, self-destructing lungs or having a tube pushed down my throat to try to force oxygen into me--or being denied that because I'm too old at 66. I worry about the safety of my family and my friends. I am scared senseless at the unnecessary magnitude of the economic collapse that threatens to bedevil us as surely as the late effects of cancer treatments.

I only know one thing for sure. It's a thing that most cancer survivors already know: What doesn't kill you, makes you. It doesn't make you stronger, or prettier, or healthier or more kind or charitable…. It just makes you more of whatever you already are.

We will find a new normal, once this global mini-apocalypse has passed (at least, in its extreme form). What that new normal will be like is up to us. We will lose something, for sure. We will have to mourn what we've lost. But there will be no going back. What we are left with will have to do; it will have to be - or become - good enough.

Take a look in the mirror. Take a look at everyone around you in your life. Take a look at the human race. We are in the process of becoming more of whatever we already are, and we're going to have to live with it for a long time. Let's do what we each can to make it our best. As John Denver said in his song, The Eagle and the Hawk, "reach for the heavens and hope for the future, and all that we can be and not what we are."

Be safe. Stay well. Help others.

Brenda Denzler

UPDATE: $90,000 Being Sought For James Malm Memorial

James Malm's son is seeking $90,000.00 to honor his dad and support him during this time of grief. I am not trying to be insensitive here, but no memorial or funeral costs $90,000.00. If he cannot afford to maintain a web site then it needs to be shut down.  I have never understood why people in the COG who think they are prophets and/or God's mouthpiece for new revelation expect people to pay to maintain their lifestyles. 

James Malm, passed away unexpectedly on June 5, 2020 . James was 70 years of age. A prolithic writer James had worked tirelessly on the shininglight websites suddenly leaving behind friends and family including his eldest son and best friend David malm,  James  and  David relied on contributions from visitors to his websites. During such a horrible time like this, those closest to James should not have to worry about finances. Therefore, I would like to start a Go Fund Me page in order to keep going while I grieve for my Dad. I appreciate your generosity, thank you

UPDATE:

James' wish was to see his site up all through the tribulation so it could help wayward COG members. How absurd!

So after some thought I decided I will be going to white rock to put dads ashes in the ocean, We talked about a day trip there for years and never went. 

My plans are to study this work and take things one day at a time, James wrote for hours everyday and I was mistaken when I said there were many more posts Im new to using this blog. 

James would tell me how he wanted his sites up during the tribulation to help people. 

Im not gonna lie I could really use some help if you would like to help with the funeral cost or send support I bank at rbc under spooky____@________ also is my paypal [auto deposit is set up now]