Thursday, July 10, 2014

PCG's Wayne Turgeon: "I sat up for hours waiting for some noise from anybody, and it was dead quiet."



Words are not enough to describe PCG's Wayne Turgeon.  He was in Pasadena when I was there and was a complete asswipe at that time when he was only in his 20's.  Since his days learning to become a ministurd he has now moved into the roll as an "evangelist" in the Philadelphia Church of God.

The other day he was lecturing a group of young kids who were in Edmond to attend a summer camp on the cult compound.

He fondly remembers his highlight of being a camp counselor in Loch Lomand, Scotland in 1980.  It was shortly after the Mount St. Helen's eruption and the ash cloud was causing lots of rain in Europe.  At the Scottish summer camp it was a particularly hard rain with lots of thunder and lightning.  Kids were scared.  So what do the ever compassionate Turgeon do?

Can you share a story from sep?
We had a really wet, stormy camp [in Scotland]. It was after Mt. St. Helens had blown in May, so it was just raining throughout all of Europe. It was the wettest summer on record for many years. It was storming, with thunder and lightning. The guys were all, “Eeeee. Ooohhhh,” scared to death. I got down on the middle of the floor—I don’t know if I could do it now—and cranked out 100 pushups and said, “If I hear another peep, all of you are going to get down and do the same number.” I sat up for hours waiting for some noise from anybody, and it was dead quiet.
He brags that they sat there for HOURS and he did nothing, absolutely nothing.  He is quit proud of this!  He seems to think this is cute and appropriate on how to treat frightened kids.  What a pathetic moron.  Its no wonder that so many in the PCG hate his guts!

70 comments:

Byker Bob said...

100 pushups is certainly noteworthy, but this situation called for something on a higher plain than ego and fear. Basically, he made those campers feel as if they were on their own.

Since this was a religious summer camp, you would think that a leader might be leading his troops in prayer, and reassuring these kids that they had God's protection.

This ass doesn't realize it, but this example of his vanity was on the same level as Moses getting pissed off and striking the rock. But, that is apparently what passes for leadership at PCG. You folks in the PCG like this, and think it's the right way to go? If so, you probably deserve what they are dishing out to you. You do get a vote, the kind you cast with your tithes and your feet!

BB

Anonymous said...

Of course, any Bible story about Moses striking a rock is just exaggerated bluster to solidify people's belief in a proposed god.

Same as Wayne Turgeon's one zillion fake pushups.

When you're on a "mission from god", there's almost no end to how many lies you can tell and the ways in which you can use various sleazy sales tactics to bring others into the fold.

DennisCDiehl said...

"Since this was a religious summer camp, you would think that a leader might be leading his troops in prayer, and reassuring these kids that they had God's protection"

I understand the sentiment behind this but reassuring these kids that they had God's protection " may be a set up for a lifetime experience with it not actually being so and they may have needed to take care of themselves better.

I have buried a lot of kids whose angels must have been on vacation the day they needed watching over...

Black Ops Mikey said...

The leaders in the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia obviously don't know or understand God as a Father and certainly have no grasp of morals or ethics.

Do these people even believe in God (other than their cult leader)?

Absolutely no fruit of the Holy Spirit -- none! Plenty of works of the flesh though.

It's pretty clear that with this level of arrogance to the point of hubris, any God (or god) would do well to ignore them.

Nothing like child abuse by a cult leader. Take another look at nomore.org.

Maybe the PCG can be featured on Dr. Phil as has House of Yahweh.

Black Ops Mikey said...

This is an excellent segue for the teens to leave PCG and turn to atheism.

Black Ops Mikey said...

Great is the power of the Ori!

All hail the Ori!

All those who do not follow the path of Origin will be destroyed!

[Don't buy it -- it is a false religion, designed to take power from the people and give it to those who lead them. Without the people to worship them, they have no power.

Wait!

What!?!

Without people worshiping the CoHAM and giving them their power (money), the CoHAM leaders have no power!]

Great is the power of the CoHAM!

All hail the CoHAM!

[And we already know how this ends because of the Ark of Truth!]

Assistant Deacon said...

It figures that a Flurry would marry the guy.

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Dennis C. Diehl seems to be in support of Turdgeon's method of instructing kids that they're alone in the universe and there's only pain in calling out to a Higher Power.

Perhaps this is yet another bit of evidence that Dennis' hypocrisy is PCG-worthy.

In one of Dennis' recent comments, which I was too slow on the notice, he bragged about his past habit of dropping in on Whaler's games before sundown on Saturdays.

That revelation is lovely in the light that those who were loyally tithing so that notre-Dennie could buy his hockey tickets, had to miss the first period of those games because Dennie had spanked the fear of Armstrong into them so searingly, they dared not rebel.

Given Dennis' recorded liberty with the historic record, I wonder how many children did Dennis really bury, and what number among them did he preach false Armstrongism hope to their parents?

What does Dennis owe those parents? Or how many hockey tickets or BLT's does he owe the rest of us?

If Dennis is still into rolling in the freebies, I think the PCG sheep are good for a few more sports tickets and a smattering of Celtic dance performances to boot. PCG powers have to admire his self-serving-hypocrisy.

Talk is cheap and that is all that Dennis seems to offer to all those he's duped - past and present.

How about Dennis shut up or put up some hockey tickets for all!

Or, if he prays for forgiveness, may he be cleansed in the righteousness of Jesus!

As much as I enjoy hockey, I'd much prefer forgiveness for notre-Dennie!

Anonymous said...

OMG!
Dennis said it causes pain to talk to Zeus?

From what I heard, talking to any of the gods- even the ones that Yahweh is jealous of, can provide an anti-pain placebo effect.

But, heck, what do I know?- I'm not even a person who plays an evangelist on TV. I'm just a fish.

Luv,
Doctor Sturgeon

Anonymous said...

Holy crap, UT! Why so testy?
Was it a child of yours who died or something like that?
We all have our burdens, but yours seems to have just exploded here.

Anonymous said...

God knew what He was doing in the lives of His children whom Dennis buried, even it those experiences were confusing to some. They are going to be just fine!

DennisCDiehl said...

UT misspoke:

"In one of Dennis' recent comments, which I was too slow on the notice, he bragged about his past habit of dropping in on Whaler's games before sundown on Saturdays. "

That's a bold faced lie about what I said. I said , since the sun went down in NY IN THE WINTER around 4pm and services were 2:30 to 4:30 on Sabbath, I found myself wanting to wrap up services around 4ish so we could go to a hockey game. I NEVER implied I cut anything short on the Sabbath to get to a hockey game you fool.

Next time ask for a clarification and don't include me in your insecure rants

DennisCDiehl said...

PS UT's whole rant is quite a load of bullshit. I don't know the guy and far as I know we have never talked over lunch.

Don't project all your WCG/Armstrongist and church bullshit on me. Nothing you said is remotely true of me as a former minister, man or human being.

How about this...You email me. DennisCDiehl@aol.com , I give you my phone number and you call me to discuss my life and way of being with you man to man???? Go ahead..do it. I'll tell everyone here how it goes.

DennisCDiehl said...

PPS IN FACT:

UT I'll be home this evening at 8 pm for you to call and discuss my life, motivation to ministry, background and the actual person I am as opposed to your shallow opinions based on never having spent a minute talking to me personally.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. If you don't call to get aquainted and get to know me, you need to ask your Jesus to forgive you for not going to your brother before publically excoriating and judging him in your world of problem solving.

Anonymous said...

Hey Dennis I think that was Dave Pack. :)

DennisCDiehl said...

"How about Dennis shut up or put up some hockey tickets for all! "

Your turn...and if you call, I'll buy YOU hockey tickets.

You remind me of a guy that came to help me move in to rent house when transferred to a new church and looked at my stuff, (which was not much) and said.."SO this is where my tithe money goes..."

One of the problems with being a minister was always the idea some had that any income , and I never made more than 32,000 at the end of it all in the late 90's, that one had to only purchase approved basics and not actually have a life, take the kids on a vacation at Cedar Point , go to the zoo, drive home to see parents or send them to summer camp. And no, the church never let them go free.

I rue the day I ever heard of WCG and going into ministry which I always thought was my calling even back as a kid in the Presbyterian Church, but that's another story. As a kid, I was trained by men who didn't know what they were talking about in the world of all things Bible, God and religion. They still don't. I've done that homework for myself and it's Jesus people such as yourself that are off putting to be like you to say the least.

Call me UT or it's your turn to close your mouth. I may have to put you on hold for a bit but be patient. I may be on the phone if Dave Pack calls this evening at 7.

Redfox712 said...

To any PCG member who may be reading here I appeal to you:

Do not listen to Dennis Leap.

He does not have your children's interest at heart.

Forcing your children to be quiet for long periods of time is just to make PCG ministers easier to hear. It does nothing to help them learn how to be good people.

DennisCDiehl said...

And....the fellow the fellow that wanted to see what I was doing with his tithe money is today one of my closest former church friends I can count on one hand. So see, it can work out nicely :)

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Sensitive Dennis,

I stand correct and apologize; I did misquote what you posted.

However, you are aware it was not a "bold faced lie". It was an accident of a faulty memory meeting a fine bottle of wine.

Luckily, in a minute, I found your posts in question, and you hadn't deleted them yet, like you've done with some of your other goofy spoutings. In one of those deleted posts you slammed your brother Oleh Kubic with accusations that I feel were unfair and inaccurate. However, you no doubt, had previously cleared the matter with him when you privately went to him to help with his sin.

Below, I've copied the posts you added to this topic:

"James Malm: No BBQing, Buying Gas, Eating Out on Saturdays, But If You Do Eat Out You Might As Well Pay For A Whore Too!"

DennisCDiehl said...
The liberal Dutchman in me saved me from hurting my kids too badly with sabbath bunk. Every friday night we'd head to family swim at the Y and jammie up for Dunkin Donuts on the way home.

After church in the morning if I did not have to make the trip to another service, we'd go to the Toledo zoo and up to Lake Erie shores, or have a weekly church picnic down by the Old Mill Stream (the real one)

I have records of their immunizations too and even a few of their youthful birthday cakes.

No regrets...Thank you jebus

June 8, 2014 at 7:53 AM

DennisCDiehl said...
oh...forgot...I did cut a few winter sermons short when sun went down around 4pm so we could get good seats with the boys at Whaler Hockey Games downtown . The snowstorm was a perfect night for hockey and puck collecting

June 8, 2014 at 7:55 AM

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

So in the posts above, we have the record of you, while receiving your tithe blood money paycheck for preaching Armstrongism, doing your own thing, with: 1. Breaking the Sabbath by swimming with the heathens on Friday nights. 2. Trips to Dunkie's must have included breaking the dietary laws (if you did it right).
3. Going against the immunization prohibition. 4. Celebrating birthdays.
5. Cheating the minions out of the full sermons they paid for and hung on every word of so that you could get the primo seats at the Whalers'games.
6. And, perhaps the no regrets comment was a reference to earning a living by selling snake oil and laws that you didn't keep.

I was wrong in the content of what I posted last night but, the gist is correct; you peddled Armstrongism and brag about how you didn't do all that silly stuff. That is typical COG hypocrisy!

More of your COG brand hypocrisy is evidenced by your hitting numerous names on this forum, which is designed to slug it out with any and all players of Armstrongism. But against the principals of fair play, you don't tolerate the audacity of me hitting back at you, the presiding, venerated minister of Banned by HWA.

I feel that talking with you personally has got to be like playing basketball with Dave Pack - best to avoid both for the sake of my safety and sanity.

Of course I'm going to have to rebel against the instructions of a COG minister to contact him. I'd prefer to just occasionally point out your wackiness in your publicly posted comments.

Admittedly, I am a sinner but, I don't find I'm breaking any responsibility to you, as a brother - when has talking to a COG minister ever turned out good for the other party?

Dennis, many people adore you and still hang on your every word - there's no denying that. However, I think that although you've changed your doctrines, your preaching is still toxic. We all have a right to our opinions. If I can get you or another to consider for a moment that Dennis' words are not as wonderful as Jesus thinks Dennis is - then I'd be rolling on the floor with delight and more wine.

I hold no grudges against you - though I do enjoy fighting you. We've discussed before that there's benefit in learning to take a punch, as well as to throw one.

Anonymous said...

I hate Armstrong and everything related to him, but I am going to be honest.... That story was actually pretty awesome.

Connie Schmidt said...

Sing along to the tune...
"DONT MESS WITH BILL" by the Marvlettes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVsW_6AomOQ

Don't mess with Dennis
(No, no, no, no)
(Don't mess with Dennis)
Leave my Dennis alone
(Don't mess with Dennis)
Get a Cult of your own
(Don't mess with Dennis)
'Cause he's mine all mine
(Don't mess with Dennis)
I say it one more time
(Don't mess with Dennis)


Ken said...

I am a former minister of WCG myself and find myself hardly ever agreeing with anything that Dennis says about God, Jesus, the apostles or the Bible.
That being said however, the last thing I would ever accuse Dennis of is being a hypocrite. His "problem" (as some would see it), even when he was at AC or as a minister, was always that he was totally honest and open about every thing.
Can't say I agree with him these days, but I know that at College and in his church areas and the Feast in Niagara he was considered a breath of fresh air -open, honest, knowledgeable and fun.

Anonymous said...

God knew EXACTLY what He was doing in the lives of the lives of the millions of people that died horribly in the Holocaust...All His Children are are going to be just fine!
Now THAT's a religion that makes me feel good.
PS: No need to contact my siblings or parents who I'm pissed off at in this life.
The Kingdumb will make everything all better!
Damn, I'm so full of Holy Spirit that I can hardly stand it, sometimes. Like the folks who roll around on the floor at church!

DennisCDiehl said...

UT said:

Cheating the minions out of the full sermons they paid for and hung on every word of so that you could get the primo seats at the Whalers'games.

You're weird. Never concluded church before 4:30. Games at 7

"But against the principals of fair play, you don't tolerate the audacity of me hitting back at you, the presiding, venerated minister of Banned by HWA."

sure I do. I have asked you call me at 8 this evening haven't I. That's pretty tolerant even with all your misinformed comments about what you think I did, was or thought.

"Of course I'm going to have to rebel against the instructions of a COG minister to contact him. I'd prefer to just occasionally point out your wackiness in your publicly posted comments."

I haven't been a COG minister for over 15 years. You have your own brand of wackiness in your own publically posted comments. What you mean is that you aren't man or woman (I have been told you are a woman and a known one but I have no way of knowing. They seem to think they know who you are) enough to have a decent conversation. Your righteous avoidance is really timid fear you got into this and that you have to find a way not to talk face to face about these issues you exaggerate or expound not knowing me one bit. I'll still be waiting just to be sure you have no integrity to talk to another person instead of talking about them as if they weren't in the room. I hope you learn to watch your lying mouth.

CONNIE: call me. I probably have an opening at 8 if you are going to be the sarcastic tease. Since sarcasm is anger turned sideways..perhaps we can discuss your own painbody issues.

"Given Dennis' recorded liberty with the historic record, I wonder how many children did Dennis really bury, and what number among them did he preach false Armstrongism hope to their parents?"

Ask me fool. I'm right here in the room. Lots and everything I said at the funerals was directly out of the Bible about time and chance, the battle going hard against some in their suicides and the hope that lies within those so inclined. Among all of them I quoted extensively from the Bible. Old Testament and New to help good folks get through hell

"If Dennis is still into rolling in the freebies, I think the PCG sheep are good for a few more sports tickets and a smattering of Celtic dance performances to boot. PCG powers have to admire his self-serving-hypocrisy."

I have had a therapeutic massage practice for 15 years. I detect you have some issues with PCG of which I have never had any contact nor would ever care to. I have no illusions about my normal human self and think nothing special of myself.

"1. Breaking the Sabbath by swimming with the heathens on Friday nights. 2. Trips to Dunkie's must have included breaking the dietary laws (if you did it right).
3. Going against the immunization prohibition. 4. Celebrating birthdays."

You need to preface this with "In my opinion." These issues were always majoring in the minor for WCG. I love swimming with pagans. Most polite, unjudgmental and enjoyable folk I have ever met. If it helps, I led a SEP week canoe trip into the wilderness and ended up on an island for the sabbath with 24 kids. No one thought they could swim in the lake and were just sitting around. I thought this was stupid so told them to go swim and enjoy the sabbath and the wilderness. This was in 1971 just so you chronical my deviance properly.

Darn right I immunized my kids. Wife was not happy but I told her I grew up with it, felt comfy doing it, took responsibility for it, told the church and asked everyone who asked me for an exemption form if THEY really believed in no shots or just were feeling the group pressure to conform. I happen to think, and always have that adults and members can do or not do anything medical they want. But you must take care of children and not make those "faith" decisions for their helpless selves.

DennisCDiehl said...

UT found it:
DennisCDiehl said...
The liberal Dutchman in me saved me from hurting my kids too badly with sabbath bunk. Every friday night we'd head to family swim at the Y and jammie up for Dunkin Donuts on the way home.

After church in the morning if I did not have to make the trip to another service, we'd go to the Toledo zoo and up to Lake Erie shores, or have a weekly church picnic down by the Old Mill Stream (the real one)

I have records of their immunizations too and even a few of their youthful birthday cakes."

First of all I don't delete postings. The few I have were for typos that I wanted to correct and usually the next posting was the corrected one.

Other than that, what's your point? Was it a sin to take my kids to the zoo on Sabbath when I did not have to make the 180 mile round trip to the other church once a month or so? Try using "yes" or "no" in your answer. I think it was balanced living. Calling the Sabbath a "delight" and all that which was not a scripture most Sabbath keepers know in the least what to do with. My boys still like me and talk to me and don't call other people asking if they should destroy me or not.

The grown child of one very very self absorbed, "yes that's me spoken of in the Bible" called me once to ask if with one letter on the internet he should destroy his father. I said no. He's your father and you don't need that baggage in your life forever more. You're dad will do himself in if he keeps it up. (He did and he is) He later thanked me for sparing him such a life long mistake. I also had physical information that this site would have loved and I destroyed it for the sake of the son who asked me to.

I don't believe in drama much and adopt the view that all forms of negativity in life are some form of non acceptance. Tell me your negativities and I'lls how you what you aren't accepting and moving on from.

DennisCDiehl said...

None of this would have come up had I not just taken a look at the comments. Several months ago I started a concerted effort on my personal part to no write anymore as I have said about all I can and tending to repeat myself. I still have writing priviledges on this site and no, this site does not belong to me. Once in awhile I comment, however, if I see something personal and terribly inaccurate publically posted about what one thinks I believe or don't, said or didn't say, I will correct it. That's my right and I'd suggest you not talk about me as if I was not in the room again.

Besides, I have to comment sometimes. It drives Connie nuts who thinks I went into some kind of retirement and have no right to show up again lol.

DennisCDiehl said...

UT opined:
I was wrong in the content of what I posted last night but, the gist is correct; you peddled Armstrongism and brag about how you didn't do all that silly stuff. That is typical COG hypocrisy!"

In exactly what way is that hypocrisy? I told my church about going to the zoo and felt it was not a problem if they wished to enjoy an afternoon with their kids and help the kids halfway like the Sabbath. I told them and other churches in sermons about our Friday night YMCA swims with jammies and dunkin donuts on the way home. How is that hypocrisy? I picniced in the park after church with a hundred other church members EVERY WEEK in the summer after church. How is that hypocrisy. If you mean I didn't obey the powers that be on such stupid topics that were none of their business anyway, thenyou got me. Even a counselor told me once I tended to not obey the rules I disagreed with. I asked him if he did and he stuttered around and said something about getting along...etc..

The only time I got in pinch with my advice to live a real and practical life was from a ministerial assistant type who is now a biggie in one of the splinters that many hate for his self righteous rules. A member asked me if he had to clean out his store and shut it down for UB. The assistant told him he had to. I said no. It's an object lesson and not meant to bankrupt the biz. Just do it at home. The mini-ass called Joe Tkach Sr and got backing on the closure of the store. He informed me of the decision. I said fine and told the store owner I was the pastor at the moment and no, he did not have to close or clean the store of leaven. Nothing came from it save I told the mini ass to grow up and come to me.

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Hey Ken,

I agree with every word you wrote about Dennis in this quote:
"Can't say I agree with him these days, but I know that at College and in his church areas and the Feast in Niagara he was considered a breath of fresh air -open, honest, knowledgeable and fun."

I believed that to be true about Dennis back then - now, all I can see is a typical, intolerant, smug, COG minister. He's slinging different doctrines but, his preaching is still toxic.

I posted Dennis' actual words so that people could judge for themselves whether he is being hypocritical.

I would be delighted if Dennis would return to being a breath of fresh air - open, honest, knowledgeable and fun. That Dennis was great!

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Hey Ken,

I agree with every word you wrote about Dennis in this quote:
"Can't say I agree with him these days, but I know that at College and in his church areas and the Feast in Niagara he was considered a breath of fresh air -open, honest, knowledgeable and fun."

I believed that to be true about Dennis back then - now, all I can see is a typical, intolerant, smug, COG minister. He's slinging different doctrines but, his preaching is still toxic.

I posted Dennis' actual words so that people could judge for themselves whether he is being hypocritical.

I would be delighted if Dennis would return to being a breath of fresh air - open, honest, knowledgeable and fun. That Dennis was great!

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Sensitive, Breath of Fresh Air Dennis,

In the opening line of my post at 6:25 AM, there is a typo. I meant to write: I stand CORRECTED and I apologize.

I can't imagine ever purposefully lying about you, as you accused. Although I have been guilty of lying, I always feel terribly guilty afterwards and try to make it right.

I hope you see that I recalled your posts mistakenly and I tried to clear up the matter by posting your actual words that support the gist of what I was trying to say. They honestly seem hypocritical to me.

I hate hypocrisy but, I hate it most when I see it show up in me! To some extent, hypocrisy is a part of the human condition that we can all fall into.

I don't try to hide my sins, like lying and being hypocritical. Instead, I fight them back by being upfront about them.

Now where is that Breath of Fresh Air Dennis - don't you want to come clean and admit your hypocrisy of drawing a WCG paycheck for duping the flock and then not practicing what your cult put on the people, and then bragging about it?

Perhaps you'd feel more peace if you were more honest with yourself and your following. Look at how you jumped on poor Connie and accused her of sarcasm. I see no sarcasm in her post - and I know sarcasm!

Anyone who can't see you are acting like a COG minister has been duped again. In fact, I'd put your act side by side with any of the PCG top tyrants any day. I'm surprised Gerald hasn't called you with a job offer. I only mention PCG because the original topic was a tactic Turdgeon employed and you supported.

Dennis, I love swimming with the heathen too! I do so at every chance and would much prefer to do so at 8:00 PM tonight instead of talking to an angry old COG minister.

Connie Schmidt said...

Dearest Dennis:

You do not drive me "nuts". Post all you want, you are an interesting writer, and although I often disagree with your anti-God agnostic rhetoric, you are an excellent apologist and worth reading for debates sake to keep me sharp. I do enjoy your insight into the workings of the WCG.

You are correct about me using humor to cope, I have done so all my life. Most comedians are masking a lot of pain. I could use a serious rub down, but I doubt you are able to do that over the phone!

UT was rough with you. However, there is sort of a point he has. I believe Dennis that you are a lot like Albert Speer.

Speer, an official in the Hitler government has been known , or wanted to be known as the "Good Nazi". The one who regretted being involved
with Hitler, and who came into the regime with the best of intentions for a better Germany.

He disowned Hitler and the Nazi's during the Nuremberg trials. After his capture and imprisonment, Speer was renowned for his candor, openness and insight into the Third Reich. In fact , his book , "Inside the Third Reich" is perhaps one of the most insightful books about Nazi Germany ever written. Speer indeed was regretful.

Like Speer, you have been an officer in the Reich. Like Speer, you have regrets, and have had open and candid writings, been open, and yes even provided insight into the "empire". Like Speer, you would not do all over again, and you do not defend the dictator.

Nonetheless, Speer was still found guilty at Nuremberg, but did not receive the death penalty as most in the trial did. He was imprisoned for 20 years.

One of the defense lawyers at Nuremberg made the claim in court "If this man is guilty, then who , in all of Germany is not guilty? Is the man who worked at the munition factory not guilty as well , is the foot soldier or newspaper reporter not guilty too?"

The defense lawyer made a great point that I think he did not intend to make. It was not so much that this made Speer innocent, or the German people innocent, but rather it made ALL OF THEM, all Germans culpable.

So, I Connie Schmidt, do declare my guilt, fully, that I was a culpable agent of a mad man. That I cooperated and supported a corrupt regime, and did so for my own selfish, cowardly, and confused reasons. For this, I deserve no mercy.

No Dennis, you are not the "Good German", nor am I. Let us both go and sin no more.

DennisCDiehl said...

Thank you Connie. That was very thoughtful and realistic. I went into WCG as a young all my life Presbyterian kid who thought AC was a seminary. The literature captured me when I was 14 for lots of reasons both personal and general to what I thought I should do with my life. WHen I was there you could not have driven me away. When I grew up, you could not have talked me back into it. I believed what spin the church put on what was actually in the Bible. Presbyterians never read from much of the NT in my Dutch Reformed growing up believe it or not. I recall not one sermon given. So I got hooked on WCG thinking they were the ones who took the whole thing more seriously.

I never, from the start was enamoured with Armstrongs. They were just people. HWA the old grandpa who would die soonish and Ted the charismatic radio guy. I have stories but will spare us. Let's just say Ted did not like me from the git go.

Anyway, I had to be there and then I didn't when I grew up and got tired of all the drama . On top of that personal stuff was falling apart and the classic mid life dark night hit gangbusters. That's just how I think and process stuff.

I don't feel we have to apologize for our sincerity. Everyone I knew was sincere locally and we all thought we saw the right things in the Bible, the right way. The Armstrong/WCG dramas were far away and I tried to keep them there. Of course they came calling as did the tkaches who were rather despicable types in their approach .

Anyway, thank you. The beat goes on...

DennisCDiehl said...

I'm thinking UT wants me to admit to and apologize for abuses such as that he or she suffered from her own minister experiences. I can't. I didn't do that stuff and wasn't that kind of minister or man. My not grow up in the church background and coming from a stable family where common sense and person decision making was emphacised kept me from being overly compliant for the most part with that I simply could not agree with. But I'd grown up in a church where not all speaking the same thing was ok and went into one where it wasn't. That was the rub.

DennisCDiehl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

Fresh, Clean, and Calm Dennis,

You are quite the prolific little writer today! I'm sorry I don't have the time to address each specific point you raised but, I hope I've covered them in the large picture. At least you now realize I re-posted and responded to your very own words. Although, it is confusing why you say I'm weird for mentioning you concluded sermons early when you were the one who originally said it.

But yes, I am weird - I can't hide from that. I'm weird for spending so much time toying with you - among numerous other of my weirdities.

My weirdness tells me that the only way to get your attention is to be weird and rough with you.

I do applaud you for making life a little more tolerable for the minions by being much more relaxed and realistic with how you sometimes administered the rules of the cult with your version of COG-lite.

Within a vile system, and while being the symbol of that system, you did help some people. However, you still sold poisonous Armstrongism - even though your intentions were only good.

I'm all for forgiving you for the past - which is easier to do if you make it the past. Now though, your intentions are still good (I think) but you have another type of poison to push on the people - in my opinion.

You say you no longer have a calling to preach - yet you continue to preach. I wish, as a kid, I had stood up stronger to battle Armstrongism. Yet remaining childish, when I see you pushing the new poison, I like to counter with a beware of the preacher message.

Okay, you don't have to buy anyone hockey tickets but, I still think you should shut up or put up some Y memberships, a few rounds of hot chocolate at Dunkin' Donuts, and a birthday cake or two - to any who missed out on them because you sold them on the doctrines of your church.

It's Friday night, it's late, and I got to get swimming with my fellow heathens! Don't wait up for my call; you would have had better luck with telling me not to call you at 8:00 PM on heathen swim night. Good luck with a ring from Connie though!

DennisCDiehl said...

Connie said: "You are correct about me using humor to cope, I have done so all my life. Most comedians are masking a lot of pain."

Exactly right. I use "humor" to cover the anger I suppose. Passive aggressive comes to mind..lol. I had a person then a teen get in touch a few months ago and said "I always told my parents on the way home from church that I think Mr. Diehl was serious about.." They said no. He asked me if I was. I said yes lol That's how you get to say things that are serious and true without being too direct. Most of the most funny comedians, such as Carlin and Bill Hick were funny because they were honest and telling the truths most are only thinking

DennisCDiehl said...

PS and then I am done, ok, i'll try to be done lol

Connie said:
"So, I Connie Schmidt, do declare my guilt, fully, that I was a culpable agent of a mad man. That I cooperated and supported a corrupt regime, and did so for my own selfish, cowardly, and confused reasons. For this, I deserve no mercy."

Nope Connie. Not true or necessary. No need to internalize blame or fault. You/We did nothing deliberately and knowing it was not appropriate or true. That's not why or how we were in a church environment. When I spoke, I spoke Bible not HWA, WCG or GTA. I spoke topics and teachings from the Bible not from church literature. I didn't teach from AC notes or ideas. I taught from the Bible. I grew up knowing more of the bible at 18 than most ministers. As a dutch reformed calvinist christian reformed kid of immigrants we had learn whole chapters of the bible by heart and all the OT stories as well as parables of Jesus etc. We did little with Paul and nothing with Revelation. That was the stuff of theology and who knows what else.

I was into the Bible when I went to AC, not the Armstrongs. Don't be the monkey on your own back.

UT, The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA said...

The heathen pool will have to wait!

Dennis just posted that he did not preach Armstrongism - he preached the Bible!

That's exactly what Herbie would say!

Neither Herbie or notre-Dennie would have any connection to reality with that statement.

Because Dennis just tried to re-write a long recorded history, I'll re-post his entire post below because I believe someone to be a dirty deleter.

The truth shall set your free Dennis!

Blogger DennisCDiehl said...
PS and then I am done, ok, i'll try to be done lol

Connie said:
"So, I Connie Schmidt, do declare my guilt, fully, that I was a culpable agent of a mad man. That I cooperated and supported a corrupt regime, and did so for my own selfish, cowardly, and confused reasons. For this, I deserve no mercy."

Nope Connie. Not true or necessary. No need to internalize blame or fault. You/We did nothing deliberately and knowing it was not appropriate or true. That's not why or how we were in a church environment. When I spoke, I spoke Bible not HWA, WCG or GTA. I spoke topics and teachings from the Bible not from church literature. I didn't teach from AC notes or ideas. I taught from the Bible. I grew up knowing more of the bible at 18 than most ministers. As a dutch reformed calvinist christian reformed kid of immigrants we had learn whole chapters of the bible by heart and all the OT stories as well as parables of Jesus etc. We did little with Paul and nothing with Revelation. That was the stuff of theology and who knows what else.

I was into the Bible when I went to AC, not the Armstrongs. Don't be the monkey on your own back.

July 11, 2014 at 4:14 PM

Assistant Deacon said...

This thread almost made Wayne Turgeon's 100 pushups seem tolerable.

Anonymous said...

UT, you sir (or ma'am) are an asshole.

Anonymous said...

For years I've been reading this site and never once have I witnessed Dennis address anyone with disrespect -- and certainly not with the level of disrespect UT displays towards Dennis.

It is UT who is the hypocrite here. What a load of rubbish.

Anonymous said...

The more this jerk runs off at the mouth the more it sounds like a Velvet. If it's not her then this person has some serious mental health issues!

Anonymous said...

UT-

Maybe I haven't been around long enough, but I've always kinda wondered why you've branded yourself with the identity of "The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA." I guess something happened here in the past between you and Gary? Over the past couple of years you always seemed like a reasonable person in your comments.

Until today.

We all have our bad days, in which we're prone to over-react or come off too harsh - harsher than we thought we sounded. It happens to me from time to time. And you can't always predict how others are going to interpret what you've written.

But the comments from the evening of the 10th and the morning of the 11th just seem to reveal a long-standing resentment of Dennis that's downright personal, and IMHO, sort of unfair. Sure, we don't always understand everyone, and not everyone rubs us the right way. But these sorts of accusations of calculated hypocrisy, a sinister personality, and corrupt motivations on Dennis' part seem to ME be totally unwarranted, no matter how you read it.

Was it these sorts of comments in the past that led to whatever it was that has prompted you to adopt the "The Reigning Being of Being Banned by Banned by HWA" moniker?

DennisCDiehl said...

This thread has been very interesting to me personally. It seems to help in giving me closure of sorts hearing from the different types people and how they have processed their own pain and regrets.

I'm very secure in who I am and where I am in life with simply wanting to separate what is true and real from what is less true and unreal. It is important for me personally to be authentic . I have no problem sharing the thoughts that most people only think to themselves. It's better mental health for me.

I can't say it any better than Eckhart Tolle's description and function of the "Painbody"

"There is such a thing as old emotional pain living inside you. It is an accumulation of painful life experience that was not fully faced and accepted in the moment it arose. It leaves behind an energy form of emotional pain. It comes together with other energy forms from other instances, and so after some years you have a "painbody," an energy entity consisting of old emotion.

It lives in human beings, and it is the emotional aspect of egoic consciousness. When the ego is amplified by the emotion of the painbody, the ego has enormous strength still -- particularly at those times. It requires very great presence so that you can be there as the space also for your painbody, when it arises. "

Personal thanks to those of you who were kind and balanced through this interesting exchange...


DennisCDiehl said...

A bit more to peek one's interest in the painbody..

"That is everybody's job here -- to be there, to recognize the painbody when it shifts from dormant to active, when something triggers a very strong emotional reaction. At that moment, when it does take over your mind, the internal dialogue, which is dysfunctional at the best of times, now becomes the voice of the painbody talking to you internally. Everything it says is deeply colored by the old, painful emotion of the painbody. Every interpretation, everything it says, every judgment about your life, about other people, about a situation you are in, will be totally distorted by the old emotional pain.

If you are not there as the space for it, you are identified with the painbody and you believe every negative thought that it is telling you. If you are alone, the painbody will feed on every negative thought that arises, and get more energy. That's why it's become active -- after it does that for a while, you can't stop thinking, at night, or whenever it is. The painbody is feeding, and after a few hours, it's had enough. You feel a little depleted. And then it happens again a few weeks later, or few days later.

The painbody would feel even better if it could feed on somebody else's reaction. Your partner would be a favorite person. And it will, if there is somebody around, or family situations. Our pain bodies love families. And it will just provoke this person, your partner or whoever it is. The painbody knows exactly what the thing is that will trigger a negative response. Then it says the thing that is going to really hurt you. And of course, if you are not absolutely present in that moment, then immediately you will react. And the painbody loves it! Give me more drama, please! "

The rest is here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eckhart-tolle/living-in-presence-with-y_b_753114.html

DennisCDiehl said...

Aways happy to chat email or even phone so no one need to hesitate to stay in touch. It was awfully quiet around here last evening at 8 pm :)

DennisCDiehl said...

Apostle and Davidic Joshua Ben Pack was going to give me a call after services today, I thought, but said he was cutting services short and willing to deprive the brethren of his full and overarching sermon because he had to get to a basketball game... :)

Naw...he didn't call me either...

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Whoa!!

I am scratching my balding little head trying to understand how this post on PCG Wayne Turgeon and his 100 push-ups turned into an attack on my friend Dennis Diehl. Oh well, can’t explain the unexplainable.

Here’s my version of Mr. Turgeon’s story:

Kids at Camp: Please tell us a scary story from the glory years of God’s Philadelphia era otherwise known as the Worldwide Church of God under God’s Apostle Herbert W. Armstrong – the most important man of the 20th century!

Mr. Turgeon: It was a dark and stormy night at God’s SEP camp in Scotland. The kids were restless that night after enjoying evening games of bible scrabble and munching on stale Matzo crackers leftover from last spring’s Passover. As we lay down for the evening, a rebellious spirit could be felt among the children. It was a night to be much remembered – not to be confused with “THE night to be much remembered”. Suddenly out of nowhere an image appeared that took the form of a white haired older gentleman dressed in a dark business suit who could be hear saying, “In vain do you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men – I command you to do 100 push-ups or face a good spanking from a hard spanking paddle.

I got down and could only do 15 sit-ups before I fell on my face in exhaustion. Suddenly, like a hand from nowhere I felt three great big whacks on my posterior. Three is the number of utter completion. I looked up and found the corporal punishment was being inflicted by one of the rebellious campers dressed up to look like Mr. Armstrong!

I sat up for hours waiting to hear noise from anybody, but it was dead quiet!

Richard

Byker Bob said...

Even with a company car, gasoline credit card, housing allowance, and expense account, it would have been very difficult to live and raise a family on $32,000 per year at the end of the 1990s. We must remember that tithes and taxes would have further dissipated the salary portion.

Although money isn't everything, reading that was reaffirming for a person who consciously made a decision against going into the ministry (a pattern that was considered to be the height of rebellion during that era). It's been much better for me personally, working with industrial and business equipment, because they conform to certain laws and design, and are emotionless and somewhat predictable. Working with people is a tough, frustrating racket, because people take weird and irrational courses, and are capable of great anger and ingratitude.

It must have been especially difficult working with people while operating under the guidance of the false principles of Armstrongism, That history is a gift that keeps on giving, unfortunately, because there are people who want to continue holding someone responsible for what the worst stereotypes did, even though the specific individual in point always tried to utilize common sense, and has since repudiated the principles which caused the group behavior.

BB

Anonymous said...

It's not so much what a person believes or disbelieves that becomes offensive. It's whether or not they were an asshole about it. Based on a considerable body of testimony over the years, Dennis was not one.

~Miguel de la Rodente

Anonymous said...

Whoever this UT person is, certainly needs some psychiatric help! There are a lot if deep seated issues this person has never faced up to. Armstrongism has wrapped her/his brain.

Anonymous said...

Velvet. UT has to be Velvet. Lots of similarities.....

old EXPCG hag said...

When are you going to throw any of YOUR kids out the door of PCG like you so easily do to others kids, especially your oldest Grant whom has given you so much trouble over the years, Wayne?

Dictator Dumb-Ass!

Anonymous said...

Grant is the new little golden boy of the PCG. He is a self indulgent arrogant little shit that gets away with all kinds of stuff because of old grand dad. He will be as abusive as his dad if he ever becomes a ministurd.

DennisCDiehl said...

IMPORTANT:

For the record. UT sent me a very heartfelt apology this morning for all the comments and what felt like personal attacks. I don't take many things personally anymore and we will talk on the phone sometime this week and probably have a really great talk.

Thank you UT. All is well....

DennisCDiehl said...

PS UT is unable to post at the moment and did want to post a personal apology. I'll go ahead and take responsibility to post the one I received this am. I trust it is sincere. Haven't talked to the blogmeister but I think he trust my judgement here.

We're all here to learn...

"Hi Dennis
I tried to post an apology but, Gary banned me again.
I guess he thought it was too snarky - he's prolly right.
In honor of Gary's wisdom, I'll just say I'm sorry for whatever you need an apology to cover.
I think I can fit a phone call in on Thursday around 7 PM - if that's something that would be useful to you.
I have no need for a conversation or anything - so do whatever's best for you.
I'm also sorry for the need for anonymity - that's a complicated family issue.
The scheduling difficulty is also as crazy as I am.
If you'd like a call, send me your digits.
....
UT

DennisCDiehl said...

My response for the record:

"Hi UT
No apologies needed. I guess I don't think that way as everyone is where they are when they are there on the journey. I learned long ago not to take things personally and for the most part it reflects where the person is at the time with their own issues, pain and hurts.

(Leaving out personal info here....) Continue: Would enjoy talking. I would be discrete with your call and anonimity of course.

Thank you for taking the time to be in touch. I am "impressed" and just naive enough to believe you lol . I do believe you.

den

John said...

hyp·o·crite

a person who claims or pretends to have certain beliefs
about what is right but who behaves in a way that
disagrees with those beliefs


So how do you celebrate a child's birthday as a minister of
WCG and not be a hypocrite.

I think the only way to do that would be to come before
the congregation and say something like "Brethren, Despite of the
church's teaching regarding the celebration of birthdays I choose
to celebrate my own childrens birthdays with a birthday cake."

Anonymous said...

Wayne Turgeon's 100,000,000 pushups aside, I'll make a few comments.

I find Dennis to be an honest man(thru sermons and even the history of his sermons).

On this site, a person may meet a variety of types- not all very helpful.
Some, in fact may write posts dead set against you- attacks which may reflect a mindset[which even many Christians would consider wrong-headed]- and not knowing you well enough, but considering themselves Christian and believing the Holy Spirit is pushing their ass into it, they have a need to attack.
They believe that they're on a "Mission from God" and that their actions are totally holy and justified.

I've had experience with people who think they're so 'in' with the Holy Spirit that they believe it's ok to bully those who disagree with their cherished interpretations and beliefs because they think Jesus would want them to.

Frankly, such people do nothing but make Christianity look bad.

Anonymous said...

My views on the minors were not ,never unavailable upon request john n often requested

You need to say, "in my view and never having met you, you are a hypocrite" as your ill informed view n judgment. Perhaps a good read of 1 Corinthians 13 at you church could help?

Dennis

John said...

I'm an agnostic so I won't be reading Corinthians or any other part of the bible. You can say it's a minor but it wasn't a minor thing to the church kids
who never got a chance to celebrate their birthday. You had liberty which the other folks didn't have. Maybe as their spiritual guide you could have preached about the liberty you had and not just make it available upon request.

Anonymous said...

"So how do you celebrate a child's birthday as a minister of
WCG and not be a hypocrite. I think the only way to do that would be to come before the congregation and say something like 'Brethren, Despite of the church's teaching regarding the celebration of birthdays I choose
to celebrate my own childrens birthdays with a birthday cake.
'"

Well, sure, John, that's one way he could have done it. It's not the only way, though. At any time Dennis could have made his views and practices on birthdays known to his congregations. He could have done it in the context of Christmas, for example. I get the feeling that Dennis differed with the official Gestapo party line on more issues than birthdays (i.e. the deleavening of businesses), and I can well imagine him telling his congregations both what Pasadena was saying, as well his reasons for not agreeing with Pasadena, and what he thought made more sense and supported instead.

I wish I had Dennis for a pastor when I was growing up in WCG instead of Robin Webber.

DennisCDiehl said...

I guess ya had to be there. I was in my late 20's at the time and as a minister, you can't win having any opinion or view on the marginal topics (much less major ones) the church was noted for. Make up, Petra, What was leaven, and birthdays come to mind.

There were always Church zealots that would call HQ in a heartbeat should they detect any deviation from the expected spiel on majoring in the minors. People knew my views and knew I just asked they do or not do something because THEY really believed it, like immunizations, healing etc and not just because they thought they had to or were expected to by others.

"All speaking the same thing" is probably one of the most ridiculous scriptures and concepts in the NT. It simply is impossible and to so means that either the entire group is right or wrong on any number of topics. All speaking the same thing , to me, is just compliance and usually means "all speak the same thing, I the leader tell you." It's a stupid way to lead and ranks right up there with being all things to all men. Not possible nor good mental health.

I guess I chose my battles so I could be of the most help for as long as I though I had to be there.

DennisCDiehl said...

I guess ya had to be there. I was in my late 20's at the time and as a minister, you can't win having any opinion or view on the marginal topics (much less major ones) the church was noted for. Make up, Petra, What was leaven, and birthdays come to mind.

There were always Church zealots that would call HQ in a heartbeat should they detect any deviation from the expected spiel on majoring in the minors. People knew my views and knew I just asked they do or not do something because THEY really believed it, like immunizations, healing etc and not just because they thought they had to or were expected to by others.

"All speaking the same thing" is probably one of the most ridiculous scriptures and concepts in the NT. It simply is impossible and to so means that either the entire group is right or wrong on any number of topics. All speaking the same thing , to me, is just compliance and usually means "all speak the same thing, I the leader tell you." It's a stupid way to lead and ranks right up there with being all things to all men. Not possible nor good mental health.

I guess I chose my battles so I could be of the most help for as long as I though I had to be there.

John said...

As a former member my comments are inspired by witnessing double standards in the conduct of some ministers and their families. I realize everything isn't black and white. I didn't walk in your shoes so I can't say with certainty what choices I would have made had I been in your position.

old EXPCG hag said...

My one last comment for this post:


But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Genesis 50:20

Yes God does use evil people to work for good in others lives. It might take a while, but when the truth is finally known, even the perpetrators will be astounded.

If you can just keep from getting pissed off in the mean time!

DennisCDiehl said...

That "double standard" thing is human thing. Minister and member alike. It's the nature of the beast when one thinks they simply must suppress who they are and what they really think for the idea of group think, "truth" and all speaking the same thing etc. It might seem right but it is wrong and impossible. The characters, apostles and wanna be's in both OT and NT came no where near all speaking the same thing.

A man or woman in ministry is in a terrible position to be an authentic human being. Controlled from above and watched like a hawk form "below" it is unnatural and unfair. Member screws up..."forgive me". Minister screws up..."crucify me, marginalize me, report on me, fire me and label me." is my experience. I mean "me" in a big sense, not just me.

All men and women I know in ministry must wear two faces at times to even stay in the position. I don't miss it but I do understand it

Anonymous said...

Just did a re-read of this, and it occurred to me that if the Turgemeister happened to hear his name was featured at Banned, and popped in to check it out, he's probably laughing his ass off at us.

Anonymous said...

Whew!
I finally finished reading through these comments, and I agree with the sentiment that it was as tedious as those campy herculean armstrongist pushups.

Heck, I like Dennis, but it reflects a dim view of others' ability to think for themselves to say that anyone here "hangs on his every word"!

In fact I'd categorize most of Tolle's teachings which Den has advocated as powerful yet phony schmaltz, overly simplistic and anathema to acceptance of real nuance.

But, Dennis and has been sincere, has a good sense of humor and has graciously provided insights into the WCG experience and theology.
And, I'd hardly call him "anti-God", as someone here accused him of being.

IMO, what this brouhaha boils down to is that one or more people with the savior complex think that Den is leading people astray from what they perceive as the Truth.