This was written by Herman Hoeh and was in the Good News October 1957:
What is the purpose of the ministry?To instruct the brethren to grow in love and in good deeds — exactly as Heb. 10:24 mentions. Then God intends THE PASTORS to set the right example and to instruct the flock which should assemble WITH a minister. IF BRETHREN COULD ACCOMPLISH THIS BY ASSEMBLING WITHOUT A MINISTER, THEN JESUS WASTED HIS TIME TO TRAIN INDIVIDUALS TO BECOME PASTORS OR ELDERS. Then He was mistaken in training the disciples to preach and to feed the flock, if the flock could feed itself!The very fact that the ministry is FOR the edifying of the church is PROOF POSITIVE that assembling without a shepherd will NOT lead to UNITY and perfection in knowledge. Without a pastor, disunity, contention and error will inevitably arise in a local group. EXPERIENCE PROVES IT!
What is a person to do if they have a minister that treats them like dirt? What if someone has a minister that tells them to abandon their loved one a the mall so the state can take care of the loved one? What if a woman has been molested by a minister or severely beaten by a husband and the minister tells her she still has to attend church with him? What if your minister sexually assaulted one of your children? Why in the world would anyone need to sit there and listen to this crap when, if they wanted, they could gather with friends and open their Bibles and study together?
The above is all about control. Members have always been considered too stupid to know anything about the Bible, even though their founder never had any theological education, other than parking his butt in a public library for 6 months while not working to care for his family.
Church leaders need members to gather together in order to control them and take their money.
They forget this one simple scripture though that says they don't need a minister present:
Matthew 18:18-20The Message (MSG)
18-20 “Take this most seriously: A yes on earth is yes in heaven; a no on earth is no in heaven. What you say to one another is eternal. I mean this. When two of you get together on anything at all on earth and make a prayer of it, my Father in heaven goes into action. And when two or three of you are together because of me, you can be sure that I’ll be there.”
Matthew 18:18-20King James Version (KJV)
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
35 comments:
The Armstrongism line of thinking is that Jesus came to preach the Kingdom. They downplay His role as the initiator of the New Covenant and salvation, the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes and the TGCOL. These were radical, new and fresh at that point in history, but have now been widely preached for over 2,000 years. The true judge of a Christian's character is not so much how he or she reacts amongst "insiders", but how he or she treats outsiders or nonbelievers. So far as learning goes, every single minute is an opportunity, and our education comes from keeping as many channels open as possible. We probably learn the most and the most intensely from our poor choices and mistakes.
BB
In Christ's day there was no printing press, so members were limited in their ability to do personal research. They lacked the tools to be as independent as todays Christians. So unfortunately they were overly dependent on teachers.
Herman conveniently leaves out bible verses such as 'prove all things' (a personal responsibility) and ''don't lord it over the flock like the gentiles.'
He makes dubious conclusions based on cherry picking scriptures,
Hermon may have been a "nice guy", but he was a phony, a sycophant and a heretic.
80% of my past ministers are either believers in a Creator, stayed with Tkach or started their own little tithing group. I don't trust any preacher or person, without a long track record.
Creating need, is always the catalyst to having control. The self interest demonstrated by Hoeh is self evident.
So then, which scripture is correct, Hebrews 10:24, or Matthew 18:20?
I mean, they can't both be right.
Do we need any more reason to toss christianity in the trash? If it's founding texts are an incoherent, unreliable mishmash, then of what use are they except as interesting ancient literature? You know, just like all the rest of ancient literature.
Don't some non ministers have the gift of teaching? Didn't Paul tell us in Romans that if someone has a gift, let them use it? Members of the church are seldom able to conduct themselves as adults in the church. Only the minister can decide anything. In fact, even those like GTA and RCM and other "top leaders" had little real authority. It seems as if only HWA could make decisions, subordinates only implemented policies, never formulated them. Perhaps this explains why there was so much alcoholism in the church. Many men, even those with titles and church provided homes on Waverly Drive, probably felt frustrated. Perhaps the manager of a Taco Bell had more real authority than some evangelists.
You are right-on anon 3:20. Both sides of so many doctrinal disputes can be argued from scriptures. The bible contradicts itself on so many maters. It is indeed a "mishmash" of writings. Let me recommend the "skeptics bible". You can access it online.
Herman Hoeh was called mule at Ambassador College. I was asked why Mr. Hoeh was called mule, I told them it was because he was a dumb ass.
You do realize he goes into that very scripture you say they miss. Are you then hiding it from the people in order for YOU to be the one to say it? that is quite deceitful. Exactly what you say these false prophets are doing(which of course they are doing), but please be honest and read the rest of the article from Herman Hoeh, and we must get the CONTEXT of the scripture which he does quite well.
It is found in the section titled - Where Two or Three Gather Together
"But didn’t Jesus promise that wherever two or three brethren gather together, He will be in their midst?..." Those reading can find the rest of the story in the Good News October 1957 issue, with the article titled "Should You ASSEMBLE Without a Minister?" by Herman Hoeh
It seems the author does not want you to think he touched on this. Why? Are they starting their own church/cult here?(sort of like only the minister or teacher(this case the author) can tell us what "really" is going on, with many blind sheep saying yes, yes. It must be true, without proving it true first. Blind leading the Blind I say. let' check up on them, and prove them true or not. Prove all things as the Bible says. Are they withholding the truth, the full truth here? Why tell a lie, when there is a plain section dedicated to that scripture within the very article they are ridiculing? Don't take my word here check up on it. We have the proof right there in the article. Lets not be led astray here. Or is that the point to this post/article?
Leave it to the Kitchen clan to come on here and defend one of WCG's sex perverts. Hoeh had his collection of young underage male porn. Given how sick and perverted so many in the ministry were and still are, WHY do the Kitchens promote their filth? They whore themselves out to the law and Moses and ignore Christ.
We do not promote such filth(if it is true. Right now it is hearsay). This site and your comments have done more promoting of that "filth" than anything. And you sure do ignore Jesus Christ and His Father and the Father's law which Christ magnified. What does the scriptures say about this? The Ninth Commandment - "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" - is the basis for the other statutes and judgments in this category in the Bible.
Most people assume that the Ninth Commandment is only against lying. Though it does cover lying (Revelation 21:8, Colossians 3:9) it is mainly against false accusations made against another!
The main object of the last six commandments is love of your neighbor (Romans 13:9-10). And the Ninth Commandment forbids making a false witness against your neighbor - thus harming him. The Moffatt and the New English Bible say, "You shall not give false evidence [against your neighbor]."
Does God consider it a light thing for a man to falsely accuse his neighbor (brother)?
And what about Jesus' words: "Judge not that ye be not judged"? We know that we can judge a person's actions as being either in conformity or not with God's law. But can we judge his heart?
"But why doest thou judge thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (Romans 14:10). And in verse 13, "Let us not therefore judge another any more."
The apostle James must have had trouble with judging and accusing in his day, for he writes: "Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou are not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who are thou that judgest another?" (James 4:11-12).
Those who would speak evil of another and judge their brothers are in reality judging the law and speaking evil of GOD'S LAW! And like you have said, "The one who accuses us usually is guilty of the very thing he accuses others of."
Many people don't mean or intend to be malicious with their words. They are just careless and neglectful. They say and pass on information without checking it out - without responsibility! For some it is just habit. But God's Law also deals with neglect. And one can forfeit his life through neglect! (See Exodus 21:28-36.)
Sometimes people accuse because they want to get another person in trouble and see him thrown out of his job or the Church.
Whatever the motive, whether neglect, carelessness or malice, Jesus' words still ring true: "But I say unto you, that every idle [Moffatt says 'careless'] word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shall be condemned" (Matthew 12:36-37).
Another translation says it this way: "I tell you this: there is not a thoughtless word that comes from men's lips but they will have to account for it on the day of judgment" (New English Bible).
Are we a New Testament Christian, Obeying all of Christ's message from God the Father, or are we ignoring what Jesus Christ really said?
I have mixed feelings about Herman Hoeh. He baptised me in November of 1955 in the pool in the lower gardens. He was always a friend and didn't turn his back on me when I pulled out of the organization. He was very kind to my youngest daughter, Nancy, after my wife divorced me.
On the other hand, he would do anything to keep in the good graces of HWA. I think he found himself in between the proverbial rock and hard place. He'd been used to the good life and had no skills to survive in the world at large anymore than I did at the time, but I was already at rock bottom financially and every other way. I suspect he saw through it as much as I and others did, but concluded it was too late, that it was all a con game to begin with, so why rock the boat and bring destitution on himself and his family. He even spent a lot of time with Buddhists at their local temple.
We'll never know what went on in his inner mind. He was very adept at being a chameleon.
Allen C. Dexter
Tim Kitchen
Why are you pulling the 10 commandments into this? Christians who follow Jesus have not bound to the 10 commandments. The law, including the 10 commandments only serve as a tutor to show the unrighteous of the law keepers. The 10 commandments are included in the 603 other laws of the old covenant that are the "ministry of condemnation" and a "ministry of death." The power of sin dominates the life of a law keeper. Those that follow Jesus are new Christians to the core and have no need for the law.
So it is okay for a new testament "Christian" , to worship other gods, to build graven images and worship them; to dishonor parents, to rob and steal, to covet property of others, to cheat on your wife or husband and commit adultery? You mean, Jesus said we can do all that? Come on, Jim Jones, I won't take your koolaid. That is utterly CONTRARY to what the Word of God says. Jim Jones said the same thing. "Do not believe the Bible" but guess what, im going to believe God's word, and not drink your koolaid.
Come on people. You believe this? It is easily disproved. Read the original article from Herman Hoeh. He's right. This website is a cult like Jim Jones, who don't want their people believing the Word of God! Don't drink their koolaid.
I recall Dr H also said something like, the Apostles should have started a college...
Sam: Prove me wrong. You can't!
"The 10 commandments are included in the 603 other laws of the old covenant that are the "ministry of condemnation" and a "ministry of death."
Your law keeping is useless and leads only to condemnation and death. Your continual prostitution to Herbie Armstrong means you have no idea who Jesus is or what he even accomplished.
Did he ever SHOW you his "collection of underage male porn"? I am not in a position to know whether he had such, but I am surely going to assume he didn't unless someone proves otherwise. Your assertion is not proof. It's defamation. And you hide behind "Anonymous" while you do it.
Yawn. The second oldest fake argument in the book, right after "unless you are circumcised according to the law of Moses, you cannot be saved". Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
But hey, keep knocking down that same tired old straw man if you like, the only one entertained by it is you.
It seems to me that the insistence that a minister attend every bible discussion is born from Fear. It's a distrust of Jesus when he said that his sheep know his voice. He said he isn't going to lose even one of those whom the father had given him. A Minister who believes him doesn't have to fret about people talking to each other outside of his presence.
Sam Kitchen
Saying that this is a Jim Jones cult is inaccurate. There are a spread of beliefs on this site. Some I agree with, others I don't. There's the same spread in secular society as well. Many ministers under Herb behaved like Jim Jones, and according to reports still do. Dave Pack being a good example.
I must admit, I believe publicly mentioning ministers personal sins as hitting below the belt. It's the harm done to others that's the issue. Herbs church was run along abusive cult lines, inflicting enormous harm on members that they still live with on a daily basis.
Sam, perhaps you should focus on the perpetrators rather than the victims.
Good point, Gordon. Such a fearful minister must be secretly worrying what Gamaliel would have to say about him.
BB
So in affect, according to him, the ministers replace the Holy Spirit, and thus Yahweh.
What we are left with, is an organization of idolators.
Sam Kitchen, So are you saying a wife is property? The commandment says "you shall not covet your neighbors wife ..or anything that is your neighbors. It covers a whole lot more than 'property'.
I will know God is truly in a "church" body when the members don't covet the children of others and the heads of the church don't promote it. You know, adoption, where they take advantage of another's disadvantage (poverty, etc.) to get the child they so desperately covet. I don't see any "church" that is there yet.
Both Armstrongs gave "new unfortunate meaning" to the term "Where Two or Three Gather Together".
Some years back I was involved with an independent church of God, and at one of the meetings someone asked if they could put JW literature on the lit table. I think I was the only one who supported the idea. Those who really get it aren't going to be affected. And those who aren't part of it anyway will eventually leave for one reason or another. So it really makes no difference what's on the lit table. That was my reasoning and belief based on Jesus' promise.
I've got news for everyone. Jesus is present not because he sees a bunch of Christians and decides to bop out with them. He's present in each one of them individually. This can get magnified in a group, assuming authenticity and sincerity of all the members.
BB
More about Hoeh. He was sort of like far out authors that attract a fringe group with far fetched claims, like Von Dannekin (hope I spelled that right). While I was a starry-eyed follower, I always looked forward to his sermons because he brought in these far out things he'd found in some questionable book and did the denunciations of Egyptian history he later had to repudiate when he withdrew his Compendium of World History from circulation.
He was as gullible in many ways as we all were, and he basked for a time in adulation, but he did have the honesty to admit it, just like I've had to that day he walked into the now demolished Administration building, laid the two volumes of his book and his doctors degree on the counter and said, "it's all wrong," and walked out. That took a lot of guts -- and real humility!
I, for one, still respect the guy in many ways. I can't condemn him without condemning myself.
Allen C. Dexter
Allen,
Did you witness that "counter act" somewhere in the early seventies? Or are you compounding your personal experience with Hoeh with something you read on some blog somewhere, sometime?
If we are talking about Hoeh I liked his take on things when during Apartheid he spoke at a black Feast site and asked the question, Why do WE gentiles keep the Feast?"
His Budhism permeated Church doctrine for those who have eyes to see! Of course since Christianity itself originated by the Eastern traders visiting the Roman capital city of Sepphoris where Jesus worked as a carpenter in his teens.
Nck
I did not personally witness what Herman did. I was informed of it by people I have no reason to doubt.
Allen C. Dexter
By the way, NCK, I've never encountered those things you state about Jesus and Sepphoris. Is there an online source I can research? I even have my doubts that Jesus ever really existed. Nazareth certainly didn't. There's no historical record of it anywhere, according to what I've found.
Allen C. Dexter
Hi Allen, thanks. My question was specifically if you were informed on that act in the early seventies or were you made aware of it just a short while (10 years for your age) ago?
Nck
There were a number of unique qualities that Dr. Hoeh had. One thing that amazed me as an AC student was the fact that he would occasionally volunteer for work parties on campus. When he showed up to set up tables and chairs as one example, he showed up not as an outspoken "authority", but as a way dressed-down (old pants and a sweatshirt) humble worker, who said next to nothing, and just took orders as to where to place the chairs. When the work was done, he left without any fanfare. I was so blown away by that, that I remarked about it to an upper classman, who informed me that Dr. Hoeh was known to do such things from time to time. It was quite remarkable.
BB
Yes, BB. That's one of the reasons I have trouble condemning him. He obviously had feelings for others and believed in at least trying to practice humility. We're all a mixed bag, and we act according to the concepts that pervade our mind at the time. Our actions speak a whole lot louder than our words.
Allen C. Dexter
Hi Allen,
-Fact: Nazareth existed as an extremely small town.
-Fact: There is no historical contemporary record of Jesus.
-Fact: The personage of Jesus was known for extreme philosophical sophistication at a young age
-Fact: You don't learn that stuff in redneck country
-Fact: It seems that the personage of Jesus stepfather was quite wealthy builder
-Fact: One of the main capital cities, political and trading hub of the Roman empire was just 12 miles from that hilly hamlet
-MOST IMPORTANT FACT THAT MOST IMPORTANT CITY IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE
-The temple priests seemed to be amazed about the lads knowledge
-Many people and traders from the Orient passed by Sepphoris for administrative purposes
-The entire book of Revelation is Eastern mysticism based on star constellation known to the scholars from the East.
-Christianity bears the marks of meekness, compassion etc etc etc which are all Buddhist tenets
Herman Hoeh was a Buddhist.
When the true church burried their apostle many Buddhist priests assembled to pay hommage TO THIS DAY.
Therefore Christ was a Buddhist.
nck
Allen
There's plenty of funny stuff and science in my posting. I leave it to the interested to research the scientific part and laugh about the funnies.
It's kinda like taking your thesis about Paul going into the Arabian desert to the next level and assert or connect that somehow the Arabs did not have Islam revealed to them through an archangel but through many learned people as can be asserted by the complex poetry of the next revelation building on the Jewish customs. Perhaps by a church founded by Paul somewhere along the Arabian coast, filled with refugees from Jerusalem.
nck
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