Saturday, October 28, 2017

Why Does This Have To Be So Complicated?

I know there is a way that seems right unto a man but the ways thereof are death, God does not see as a man sees and the wisdom of man is foolishness with God.....but which concept would seem like it would cause less mental, emotional and spiritual confusion, drama and stress in real life?

...and probably end in a hug?


This...


or...


just wondering....

71 comments:

Byker Bob said...

I'd hazard a guess regarding the depth of emotion involved between apologizing or killing an animal, but there isn't a direct correlation with either. One person could be practically a basket case over whatever he is verbally apologizing for, while another could fake all the emotions normally associated with sacrificing a poor innocent animal. Perhaps the most important factor is the correct condition of heart, and not whatever you are doing to signify that condition. Sociopaths can shed blood on command, and never feel any remorse or repentence. They do whatever is required to escape penalty.

The writers of the Bible knew nothing of Freud, or Jung, or the DSM-IV. That's why legalists and literalists are so easy to manipulate and deceive.

BB

Anonymous said...

Doesn't the concept of human sacrifice to appease the Gods come from ancient, superstitious religious beliefs? Wasn't the practice of sacrificing humans a common part of ancient religions? Is human sacrifice carried over into the story of Jesus?

True Bread said...

Love the Creator, be kind....live forever...not complicated at all.

Anonymous said...

Love the Creator, be kind....live forever...not complicated at all.

How much love do you feel for each of your great-great-great-grandparents? Be honest. You wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for each of them, but how much of a difference do they make in your life, every day? For that matter, do you even know all of their names?

How much love do you feel for the person who wired your neighborhood for electricity? Your life would be much less comfortable were it not for that person (or those people).

How much love do you feel for the resident of the fourth-floor apartment on the second street inland from the bay in Kowloon?

Each of the above are real people, whose existences can be proven with no recourse to "faith." The Bible makes it clear that unless you love real people, like the above-mentioned people, you haven't actually loved this "Creator" who you have only had "faith" in.

So why do we see so many people proclaim that they "love" a Creator -- one who as often as not is a projection of their own needs and wants -- yet the actions of those who proclaim such "love" are mutually incompatible?

Sorry, but "Love the Creator" is very, very complicated and rests on a host of unprovable assumptions about which human beings have fought each other for millennia.

Helen Wheels said...

"Love the Creator, be kind....live forever...not complicated at all."

Sure...

Love the Dear Supernatural Leader, be kind, and live forever...in a celestial North Korea.

It's so easy for people who have been raised to read their bibles in a particular way, to imagine that biblical marriage, for example, is between one man and one woman, or that the god they imagine is so benevolent sanctioned genocide, slavery, misogyny, etc. But you've never read it for what it says, or analyzed why such a brutal, backward, barbaric god was worthy of worship, quite apart from whether or not he existed.

I won't bother quibbling with how easy it is to love brutal dictators, since Anon5:09PM has tackled that. My point, is whether or not such a soul-killing "life" under a brutal dictator would be tolerable for a finite period, let alone an infinite one.

At least with earthly prisons, if there is no other escape, death always offers a last-ditch way out. Not so with the proposition of the celestial prison called "heaven."

True Bread said...

Anon 5:09

wow....looks like I touched a nerve....sorry.

I know of every one of my ancestors back to Limbach Germany, and most back to England, France, and Scandinavia....do I "love" them...not really. Never knew them, so it seems like an arbitrary question....How about you...???

Anonymous said...

So if someone damages Dennis's car, does he accept the 'I sorry, please forgive me' or does he insist that the guilty party pay for the repair of his car?

True Bread said...

Hell on Wheels said:

Not so with the proposition of the celestial prison called "heaven."


Sorry, I don't believe in your concept of "Shangra La" after death....plus that was a lot of rambling going on there...another nerve touched I see...

DennisCDiehl said...

If you are going to "love the creator" then you are going with number one. Forgiveness is a function blood shedding and cleansing for forgiveness. Messy stuff, but that's His way.

True Bread said...

Dennis...

Indeed....I am going with door number 1....however unworthy of that blood I am.

Anonymous said...

It's not rocket science to be a good person and treat others as you would want to be treated. If a higher power exists or not we should try to get along if humanly possible.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely Agree. But most people on this blog live in an insular world and never think outside the box.

Byker Bob said...

Love is a quality which people either have, or lack. If you love fellow man, you are also capable of loving God, and vice versa. The TGCOL (love for God, and love for fellow man) work in coordination with one another, as a matched set. If you attend a church which teaches you that you must love God, or the law, to the exclusion of fellow man, practicing that will kill your capacity for loving humans, which will ultimately render you incapable of loving God. You either love, or you don't. The minute you begin putting conditions on it is the minute it starts to die across not just across a few narrow and surgically selected bands, but across the whole wave length.

BB

Personal Account said...

"Helen Wheels" at 5:51, what the hell are you rambling on about?

Arno said...

Christianity is one big bloody mess, and so is BibleGod, because BibleGod is a creation of the creature ... and everything the creature has touched, became corrupt.

My whole being churns inside-out when contemplating the bloody mess humans has made of religion. Just think about it, wherever human beings are, there are probproblems - just look at their religion. The specific religion's god rubs off on the devotees, and I guess the other way around ad well. Armstrongism is a vivid example of this.

There was at least one small bright little light trying to shine from a biblical viewpoint, but it seems poor old Hosea's words fell on anything but the ears of those people it was intended for, i.e. sacrifice vs. mercy (Hosea 6:6)

But then again, human beings had to muddy the waters once again...

Gordon Feil said...

Dennis, I have wondered the same thing and I recently discussed it at http://gordon-feil-theology.blogspot.ca/2017/08/the-atonement-was-it-penal-substitution.html?m=1

I think it needs more discussing, but as I see it, the life and death of the savior didn't pay the death penalty. Instead it did away with the need for the penalty, for reasons discussed there.

For those of you who haven't thought this through, which is the death that Paul mentioned had Romans 6:23? Is it the temporary physical death? Or is it Eternal death? If this death penalty is eternal death, then it remains unpaid because the one who died did not stay dead eternally. And if the death penalty is the physical death, then what was the point of him paying that penalty when we still all die anyway?

nck said...

Re: 7:07 "So if someone damages Dennis's car, does he accept the 'I sorry, please forgive me' or does he insist that the guilty party pay for the repair of his car?"


-If his wife damages his car by hitting a bench in a public parc. He is not required to implicate a family member if his son presses charges for the damage of the family car.
-If a 3 year old grandson makes a huge scratch on the car through its childlike way of walking or cycling I do wonder if he would "insist" on repayment.
-If he is taking a stressed out bipolar mother to first aid and she damages the car and later says the above. Perhaps he would or perhaps he would't.


My point.
It is the repairman who needs to be compensated of course if asked to repair.
But if DD would "insist on repayment or decides to forgive" would require an extensive knowledge of the case and persons involved, would it not, even in the case of deliberate and nonsensical act of damage impairment. Perhaps by the creator of the piece of art himself. Think Noah and rainbows. Think South African truth commission. Think Gandhi fighting for the freedom of an entire nation. Think Martin Luther King.

And perhaps just try and get a grasp of what a God would think like.

nck

Anonymous said...

What Dennis is ignoring is that forgiveness means agreeing to play for another persons mistake/sin. So if you lend someone one hundred dollars which they don't repay, and you forgive the debt, you are out of pocket one hundred dollars.
Forgiveness is not some magic wand that wipes away reality as Dennis implies.

Forgiveness (paying for another's mistake) and blood offerings (symbolising paying for another's sin) is one and the same.

This is another example of Dennis the spiritual menace muddying the moral/spiritual waters.

Anonymous said...

Helen
Heaven is a North Korean prison?
Then why did Satan and his demons fight not be thrown out of heaven?
Hmmm, you seem to have abandoned reason.

DennisCDiehl said...

1248

Tell me in what way was Jesus blood sacrifice a sacrifice? Gospel Jesus knew he would be coming back “in three days.” God knew he was going to bring him back from the dead in three days so the idea that “for God so loved the world he gave his only son” seems rather more a weekend inconvenience to many. If Jesus, the son of God , was to be such an incredible blood sacrifice, should he not have stayed dead instead of coming back better than ever in a mere three days? What kind of sacrifice is that???

Humans who give their lives for others stay dead and the living grateful .

The reason Gospel Jesus had to be resurrected and ascend back to heaven in the story is to provide an object of worship for the religion that followed from it. Had Jesus simply stayed dead, that is not a very convincing story of sacrifice and no different than any human who sacrifices their life willingly or unwillingly for others. Gospel Jesus also was practicing death by Romans with his provocative actions in the Temple and going bonkers over moneychangers whose job it was to change pagan coin into clean money for sacrifice in the Temple. Very acceptable in the day and not turning “My fathers’s house into a den of thieves.” Maybe someone charged Jesus too much in exchange and he was bitter.

Anyway, the argument can be made that Jesus blood sacrifice was merely a weekend inconvenience and coming back better than ever instead of staying dead like all OT types did is not such a big deal. It’s a show and a passion play at best.

Dennis Diehl said...

It seems Jesus didn't actually shed his blood and die our sins. He paused...

Anonymous said...

Dennis,

In the OT sacrificial system, sacrifice was not merely a "blood" sacrifice. At least some portion of every offering was burned up and consumed by fire. If a sacrifice got up off the altar, or walked away whole, it would not have been considered a valid sacrifice.

When Christ rose from the dead, reports are that the disciples saw Him WHOLE. No part had been burned away or consumed by fire. Not only did He come back to life; no part of Him had been taken in sacrifice. There had been no "pleasing odor" from the burning of Jesus to be smelled by the intended recipient of the sacrifice. Because of this, we can be certain that the requirement of the sacrifice had not been met.

What conclusion must we draw? Is it possible that God didn't really expect the Israelites to fulfill the letter of the law, such that the sacrifice of Jesus was valid despite its insufficiency? If so, then Jesus' sacrifice wasn't really necessary as there was no perfect letter of the law that had to be fulfilled perfectly, after all. But then we must ask: What lessons we are supposed to draw from a sacrifice that was neither a proper sacrifice nor a necessary one? What kind of a God would cause so much unnecessary confusion and pain? It just doesn't make sense.

Anonymous said...

The reasoning used to explain why the sacrifice of Jesus had to happen was that he had to be born a human to experience the pain, difficulties and temptations of being human. The problem I have with that is, didn't God create every cell in the human body? Didn't God create every brain cell that we have in our brains? The idea that he doesn't understand why we think the way we do is crazy? Didn't God invent the thinking process? Didn't God invent emotions? Besides, doesn't God know our every thought? Why do we need a half deity, half human man/God to bridge the gap between us and God the father?

Dennis Diehl said...

Reality is that Paul's Cosmic Christ,crucified in the heavens by principalities and powers was the first concept of Jesus. Paul knew nor quoted any Gospel Jesus and his writings are FIRST. Paul had long died before The gospels came on the scene. The gospel story bringing Cosmic Christ of Paul to earth in story form came later with all the inheirant problems

Dennis Diehl said...

Gospel Jesus als died young and healthy without the stress of growing old and wasting away

Dennis Diehl said...

And too tens of thousands were crucified and died far worse and drawn out deaths than gospel Jesus. Millions were more tortured and mutilated than he. Crucifictiom too days. No nice burial. Eaten by dogs. It's just hard to resurrect them good as new

Anonymous said...

Dennis
No one stays dead. Everyone gets resurrected. For those who died thousands of years ago, to them it will seem like a few seconds. So Christ's staying dead for three days parallels every human death. Christ's life being cut short meant not getting married and having children or grandchildren. That is more than your 'weekend inconvenience.' You make no mention of Christ's sadistic mistreatment by the soldiers, his beating to the point that he couldn't carry His own cross because his back muscles were shredded. You make no mention of His agonising experience on the cross and being killed by a spear in His side. It's grossly dishonest to call all this a weekend inconvenience.

You then changed the topic to the historic ongoing 'culture war.' Yes Christ did rock the boat by rebuking evil and throwing the dishonest thieving money changers out of the temple. Should not the money changing been done outside the temple.
I remind you that your posts and comments are part of this culture war as well.
You seem to imply that the forces of civilization should not fight back against the forces of evil. We would all be Nazi slaves today if we followed your advice.

Helen Wheels said...

Anon2:40AM wrote:

A) Heaven is a North Korean prison?
B) Then why did Satan and his demons fight not be thrown out of heaven?
C) Hmmm, you seem to have abandoned reason.

C) It takes reversing the burden of proof and no end of special pleading (literally, an abandonment of reason) to think that the christian gods really exist in the first place.

B) It's just a story. A myth. A fairy tale. You know, like the qur'an, or the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the Illiad & the Odyssey, or Beowulf, or...

...and even if it weren't, history is written by the winners not the losers...

A) If you want to live in a place run by an autocratic dictator who thinks that genocide, slavery, misogyny, etc. are good things, and from which there can be no escape, well, more power to ya...

...but if, against all odds, beyond all reason, you should somehow turn out to be right about the issue of existence, don't be surprised if this autocratic dictator's idea of "paradise" wasn't what you were expecting, simply because you chose to ignore the fine print...

Caveat emptor!

Byker Bob said...

There are those who have found what they believe to be powerful constructs to invalidate their Savior. This argument, in particular, is somewhat popular here, and gets repackaged and restated again and again. We've all heard of a motorcycle cop's list of excuses that people commonly offer him. "Oh, Mr. Motorist, that's #9!" is the cop's response. As escaped Armstrong lab rats, we've got our own list of recurring topics here. There will always be someone who feels that his or her premises and contentions in the previous discussion were not understood or accepted. These are issues that each individual must resolve in his own life or mind, and so many of us already have. In that way, the process is more like smoking cessation than sitting in a class hearing facts and arguments. Personally, I believe that even if Jesus had never existed, we'd all still need some sort of savior and forgiveness. Isn't that what we're actually admitting if we say that man invented Jesus, and people believed in Him like wildfire for thousands of years?

BB

Anonymous said...

Helen
There is a abundance of evidence as to Gods true nature. All those wonderful foods that God has given us is one example. Have you owned a dog or a cat? What does that tell you about Gods nature? That people hate being the victims of oppression, of some dictator, is of Gods doing. He does define reality you know. If God was a monster, He could have programmed your mind to desire and enjoy your own destruction.
You seem to believe that you are wiser and better natured than God. Really?

Maybe the problem isn't God, but rather your failure to develop the traits needed to be happy in the reality that God has created.

Helen Wheels said...

"There is a abundance of evidence as to Gods true nature. All those wonderful foods that God has given us is one example. Have you owned a dog or a cat? What does that tell you about Gods nature? That people hate being the victims of oppression, of some dictator, is of Gods doing. He does define reality you know. If God was a monster, He could have programmed your mind to desire and enjoy your own destruction. You seem to believe that you are wiser and better natured than God. Really? Maybe the problem isn't God, but rather your failure to develop the traits needed to be happy in the reality that God has created."

Of which god is this that I should assume you speak? Allah? Lord Brahma? Ahura Mazda?

There are a lot of other creator gods that are currently worshiped by other people just as intelligent, just as educated, and just as sincere as you. Any one of these gods is just as adequate to attribute all the things to which, for some reason indistinguishable from special pleading, you illogically attribute to yours, if indeed such attributions are required at all.

But go ahead, stick you head back in the sand and keep lecturing me on how I should adopt your specific variety of parochialism, and how I should distrust all the other parochialisms.

Too bad you'll you'll never be able to tell me what makes yours superior, or even why such parochialism is even necessary in the first place.

Questeruk said...

Dennis,

You say why couldn’t it be

I love you.
I’m sorry.
Please forgive me.
Thank you.

Unless I have got something badly wrong all these years, are not these words all that the God of the Bible is requiring of every individual human being?

The example was given earlier in this thread of someone damaging your car. If they then ask for your forgiveness, and you give it without asking for anything in the way of payment from the other person, then you are ‘taking the hit’ yourself.

The same way, God is forgiving those that genuinely ask His forgiveness, without taking anything from us for this forgiveness. The ‘hit’ has already been taken by Jesus Christ.

If you Dennis, next weekend, had to go through what Jesus went through on His last day, would you just call that a ‘weekend inconvenience?’

Christ, the creator of all, did this so that, as far as God is concerned, no other individual needs to do it.

Byker Bob said...

Actually, Q., someone being raped is nowhere near intense as what Jesus suffered. A rape may last 5 or 10 minutes, or it could be repeated and last for hours. Yet, the scars such an event leaves are often permanent in nature. Everybody with a shred of empathy feels terrible on a rape victim or survivor's behalf. Even a burglary can leave permanent scars, and cause paranoia for years. And there are certainly other life-searing experiences known to mankind. Lynching certainly comes to mind as one of the most evil injustices known in our recent past, and the reality is that Jesus was lynched by an angry mob!

When I was a little boy, my father brought home a magazine. I don't remember whether it was Life, or Look, actually it could have been any of the popular magazines of the day. On the cover was a picture of the remains of a black man who had been beaten, dragged through the streets until he was dead, and his body had then been doused with accelerant, and set on fire. It was horrifying, and I had nightmares for weeks.

It just amazes me that as we discuss and enumerate all of the horrible ways in which Armstrongism ruined lives, and attempt to help one another recover, somehow the incredible amount of pain and mental trauma Jesus suffered could be minimized into a bad weekend. And people jump on that, and say "Amen!" Seems like maybe we only feel as if our own pain is legitimate. Minimizing is the direct opposite of hyperbole, and just as bad. Both completely miss the boat.

Put in other terms that hopefully people will understand, Dorothy Armstrong was not brutalized to the extent that Jesus was. Yet we constantly reference her, and all agree that what she endured was both horrible, and life-changing. So there is a gross inconsistency here. I suppose that those who call Jesus' suffering a bad weekend feel justified, because they feel as if they're only talking about a literary character, or a myth. But, they'd be livid if someone did the same things to their dog!

BB

True Bread said...

A "bad weekend"...???

You can be assured the Messiah was well aware of the Roman form of murder all of His life...He knew all along what awaited Him....wrap your mind around that.

Anonymous said...

Helen
You make mention of logic fallacies as if you are a respecter of reason. Yet you shrug off all arguments. It's all water off a ducks back.

All you do is wallow non stop in your hatred of God and the reality He has created. It's as if you're possessed by this attitude.

nck said...

The only thing that is accomplished in likening Dorothy to Jesus is that both the trial of Jesus as "this blogs Court" on "the Dorothy trial" do not come close to stand the test of legal scrutiny. Pontius Pilatus washed his hands from the mockery that the Jewish Sanhedrin made of Jesus'trial according to their own standards as I wash my hands from the mockery of this blog's legal scholars.

nck

nck said...

True Bread,

How can you be so sure the Romans murdered Jesus.

The Romans were handed a person who apparantly caused "Tumultum ad murum" and dealt accordingly to keep the peace in a rebellious nation from within "The Green Zone".

The Sanhedrin court was a mockery by their own standards.

In my opinion Christs suffering at the end of his life was bad enough.
Worse however must have been the experience of 33 years of "gravity", the jewish teenage ladies around, in the knowledge that one sin would have caused the end of it all, the heat of Palestine without airconditioning having been one of the God persona's and of course the general suffering after having eaten Meditarenean food that has been lying in the sun for too long.

In short, the human experience must have been suffering too and I wouldn't belittle the way Romans maintained order, peace and prosperity when confronted with the local authorities having a request.

nck

DennisCDiehl said...

For the record, the intent of the post was to ask why God could not just forgive with simple repentance/apology etc from humans instead of being unable to forgive without shedding blood. The practice and attitude reflects the cultic nature of OT religions.

DennisCDiehl said...

Could it simply be that reflecting the times, human priests made up this need of the gods to justify temples, priesthood’s and an endless supply of good meat and income and , of course, has nothing to do with what they know any god needs to have happen before “forgiveness” takes hold?

We have to ask “Just how did humans know or find out that “God” requires this? “God told us” is not a good enough answer.

nck said...

"For the record, the intent of the post was to ask why God could not just forgive with simple repentance/apology etc from humans instead of being unable to forgive without shedding blood. The practice and attitude reflects the cultic nature of OT religions."


Dennis I believe this is the first time I am responding in a differing way to a posting of yours.

It is very clear and simple. There is a price for everything. That is the nature of nature. Ying and Yang. The balance of the Universe. etc etc
My initial response on this thread is how others could decide to pay the price, for whatever. But absolutely nothing comes for free. Not sunlight, not life itself, nor grace.

There is always a cost. As I responded earlier to BB's climate worries. Through Larssen C. Nature is initiating to exact the price upon us we have willingly not included in our gas prices and other abuse of nature.

nck


nck said...

This wisdom can be found both through Einstein, or for the more good natured people "the sound of music musical." ......Nothing comes from nothing. E=MC2.

A single apology is not enough.
But another may choose to pay the price.

nck

Dennis Diehl said...

Nck
"Freely have you received..freely give" sounds free....

John G said...

Gordon Feil on October 28, 2017 at 9:52 PM said...

"...I think ...the life and death of the savior didn't pay the death penalty. Instead it did away with the need for the penalty, for reasons discussed there.

For those of you who haven't thought this through, which is the death that Paul mentioned had Romans 6:23? Is it the temporary physical death? Or is it Eternal death? If this death penalty is eternal death, then it remains unpaid because the one who died did not stay dead eternally. And if the death penalty is the physical death, then what was the point of him paying that penalty when we still all die anyway?..."

Don Ward of United wrote some paper where he explained that the death mentioned in Romans 6:23 refers to eternal death, not a physical one.

Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death..."

Elsewhere we read: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die..." Heb 9:27

While Jesus Christ did not sin, nor earn them wages of sin, He died. All other humans sin. All of those humans who "earned" them wages, will die, but what is death? Death is only a temporary cessation from life. The second death is something else. So all human beings will experience that physical death, but that isn't the end of the matter. Jesus Christ was resurrected to life and human beings will be saved by His life. If He were not resurrected, all bets are off.

The rest of Hebrews 9:27 said: "...but after this the judgment:"

What judgment? The wages of sin for all humans were paid for by their own deaths!

The rest of Romans 6:23 said: "...but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

So, what is God's judgment on this? Christ knew what that judgment was. He tells us this:

"...Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matthew 25:34

Along with that will come that gift of God: that eternal life through Jesus Christ. Done diehl! Remember, death paid for them wages. There is no other penalty. God is not into double jeopardy, throwing the sins back on the heads of human beings. There is no need for any mythical "third resurrection." Now Lev 16 does speak about placing sins on some goat's head, but that is another story...

The Apostle Paul sums a lot of what I just wrote by simply saying:

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19

As we were told elsewhere God sent His son to save the world......and not to condemn the world. Satan and his angels will later be taken and destroyed. We wrestle not flesh and blood.

Many people are welcome to continue to believe in all sorts of other theories about life and death, but...

Time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

Christ died because everything is cause and effect, action/reaction. There are no exceptions. This inherently demolishes socialism and communism which today saturates politics and the main stream media.

Helen Wheels said...

Anon1:16AM wrote:
"You make mention of logic fallacies as if you are a respecter of reason. Yet you shrug off all arguments. It's all water off a ducks back. All you do is wallow non stop in your hatred of God and the reality He has created. It's as if you're possessed by this attitude."

Actually, I asked some pointed questions.

Then predicted that you couldn't/wouldn't answer them.

...and just like clockwork...

Anonymous said...

P.S. to Gordon Feil

God did inspire Jeremiah to tell us this:

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I WILL FORGIVE their iniquity, and I WILL REMEMBER their sin NO MORE." Jer 31:34

The fulfillment of this verse is still way in the future. It will not be fulfilled for all humanity, all Israel, until the time of the second resurrection during a time of the Great Last Day, or Eighth Day as Lev 23 mentions.

Don't expect fulfillment of these words during any Mickey Mouse Millennium either!

God's Plan of Salvation is very long-range, but this verse will be fulfilled.

Time will tell...

John

nck said...

.......Inquire which house is worthy........

But I m no expert.
Nulla sumna potest quam ipse haberet.

Which is Roman Law.

One cannot give away that what one does not own.

Nck

nck said...

Oops mixing up my Roman Law.

Nemo plus iuris tranfere potest quam ipse habere.

Its been awhile.

Nck

Anonymous said...

Dennis
No, no no. Free is 'not freely have you received, freely give.'
Or 'freely have you received, do not freely give.'
Did you study science at school?

Anonymous said...

Hell in high heels , you must have been dropped on your head to many times when you were a baby.

Anonymous said...


Helen
You ignore every answered question and argument that people give. It's just a game with you.

Questeruk said...


"Freely have you received..freely give" sounds free....

The analogy is correct as far as it goes, Dennis.

Christ has freely given His life, which gives us access to ‘the club’/(God’s Kingdom).

However, as a member, you are still expected to follow the club’s rules! Free membership doesn’t mean you are exempt from following the club rules.

Gordon Feil said...

So John, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the wages of sin is the physical death we all have, but it's no problem because after that comes God's judgment that we are worth resurrecting. Under that admittedly attractive model, how is Jesus a savior?

Gordon Feil said...

John, see my reply to your earlier comment.

Anonymous said...

Freely have you received, freely give.
The target audience is expected to tithe. So how 'free' is that?

Helen Wheels said...

Anon11:46PM/5:43PM/1:16AM/12:26PM/2:40AM wrote:

"You ignore every answered question and argument that people give. It's just a game with you."

Not so. You (potentially plural) have made some claims and assumptions:

1) The christian canon is somehow different from the qur'an, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Illiad & the Odyssey, Beowulf, etc.

How is it different? If I take one to be myth, upon what basis should another one of these be taken as anything more than that? Give me a legitimate basis. Put up or shut up. It's as simple as that. There is no "hate" involved. Why should I accept your claim? If you can't produce anything beyond special pleading, then I can't accept it. Period.

2) You refer to a "god."
2a) "There is a abundance of evidence as to 'god's' true nature. All those wonderful foods that 'god' has given us is one example."
2b) "Have you owned a dog or a cat? What does that tell you about 'god's' nature?"
2c) This "god" defines and created reality.
—Anon12:26PM

What "god" is this? Why should I think this god is not Zeus, Odin, or Quetzalcoatl?
Again, give me a legitimate basis. Put up or shut up. It's as simple as that. There is no "hate" involved. Why should I accept your claim? If you can't produce anything beyond special pleading, then I can't accept it. Period.

3) I am "possessed by" and "wallow nonstop" in "hatred" of "god."
—Anon1:16AM

Refusal to accept groundless, irrational propaganda = "hate." Got it. Sounds like North Korea.

4) Insinuation that I don't actually respect "reason."
—Anon1:16AM

Evidence that I don't? Demanding reasons from you draws ad hominem insults intended to deflect and distract from the fact you have no intelligent responses, not any rational discourse.

5) I was dropped on my head too many times as a baby
—Anon5:43AM

Ad hominem insult intended to deflect and distract from the fact you have no intelligent responses.

Once again, give me a legitimate basis to accept your claims. Put up or shut up. It's as simple as that. There is no "hate" involved. Why should I accept your claims? If you can't produce anything beyond fallacies and deflection, then I can't accept them. Period!

Anonymous said...

Gordon Feil October 31, 2017 at 7:55 AM said...
So John, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the wages of sin is the physical death we all have, but it's no problem because after that comes God's judgment that we are worth resurrecting. Under that admittedly attractive model, how is Jesus a savior?

Gordon Feil, I didn't make the "rules." I am reading the same thing you read. Death is a temporary separation from life. And death represents the wages of sin. Yes, God will find us worth resurrecting, each man/woman in his/her own order as God so wills, and then eventually take/destroy Satan and his angels (Matt 25:41, 46).

Overall, many verses indicate Jesus Christ is the savior. Many other verses indicate The God, the Father, is the savior. God will accomplish 2 resurrections for all humanity, from Adam and Eve on to the "last physical man/woman standing;" there will be no 3rd. The God will accomplish it all through His Son. How do we know?

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 2 Cor 8:6

John

Anonymous said...

Helen
There is a body of evidence of where you are coming from. This includes your comments on previous posts. On this post alone you complain of marriage being between a man and woman, heaven being a concentration camp, and parochialism. You complain non stop of the reality that God has created. In Genesis God said that everything that He created is good. Helen couldn't disagree more.

This evidence combined with a lifetime of experience enables listeners to discern that you are a God hater. Yet you (like Dennis) expect us to ignore this with the (childish) comeback of 'you can't read my heart.'

So Helen and Dennis have no idea what's in the hearts of those they know well?
They have no idea what's in the heart of a bully etc.

Questeruk said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Questeruk
Have you considered that the 'the more you feed them, the more they proliferate and nothing gets solved' might be technically correct. Maybe the solution is the Africans adopting a better moral code.

nck said...

Questeruk,

wrong thread.

It seems a troll posted the RSK comment.
RSK is a black man and I doubt he would post such a thing under that picture even if he might politically agree which he apparently does not, seeing his response.

I can't speak for Allen, but it seems the posting is not from his original account under which he regularly posts.

You seem to be quoting General Sheridan who was noted for the destruction of the economic infrastructure of the confederates. The destruction of infrastructure or not being connected to that through trade tariffs is what has kept the poor nations poor.

nck

Questeruk said...

Re posted under correct thread.

Da Real RSK said...

Doesnt look like I posted on this thread at all. I see my poor impersonator has been at work again.

Da Real RSK said...

Ah, I see, that was the Africa thread.

Helen Wheels said...

Anon7:56PM/11:46PM/5:43PM/1:16AM/12:26PM/2:40AM wrote:

"...the reality that God has created. In Genesis God said that everything that He created is good..."

Stop trying to deflect. I'm not asking for you to prove that you can read my mind. I already know you can't do that. I don't need you to drum up evidence of that.

I keep asking you to give me a legitimate basis why I should accept your silly claims that the bible is anything more than a book of mythology, like other ancient books of mythology, and why your parochial god should be credited for creating anything, while other parochial gods should not?

You cannot provide a legitimate basis why I should accept any of this mythological malarky, which is why you keep refusing to provide it, and saying, illogically, that requiring such legitimate basis is cause to insult people and make false accusations against them of "hate," which is all just more deflection and distraction.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Case closed.

Anonymous said...

Helen
You ignore all evidence and reasoning given by others, yet you ask these others to jump through loops answering your esoteric questions (a favorite left wing ploy).
This is just harassment on your part.

'What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence?' Again you portray yourself as a angel of light (respector for of reason) when you hate the light and are impervious to reason.

Anonymous said...

If this comment is allowed, I would like to recommend the commentators on this thread watch The Bible Project animated short film called:Justice.
www.thebibleproject.com
There are bloggers on here who sit in high office within COG organisations. I ask is blogging on websites achieving what God wants ? Or are these people being foolish and waisting their offices of power to do good ?

J. W. Cafourek said...

You can't tell anyone what to believe or not believe! I'm going forward with my life regardless of what nonsensical opinion you have!

Anonymous said...

Reading through the comments I see some people on here, if you believe in God or not, are just plain dumb! Before making a comment you should have a drug screening and a mental evaluation.

Anonymous said...

12.48 PM
"Is blogging on websites achieving what God want?"
Typical minister comment. God is not a puppet master. God does not micromanage peoples lives. There is enormous freedom in the parable of the talents and 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling.'
Gods opinion is a consideration, but I ask myself 'is this what I want to achieve. Is it beneficial, do I enjoy it'

A mature people is primarily motivated by internal rather than external signals. This is something the Gestapo ministry hide and attack in members lives.

Byker Bob said...

Strictly speaking, 6:25, we're not conducting a serious intellectual discussion amongst scholars here. Some humor and pranks occasionally liven things up, and I'm sure that some posters are enjoying their evening brandy as they craft their contributions. So far, nobody has ever copped to partaking of MM, but it wouldn't surprise me if some cardholder weren't getting post toastied on some "Snoop Dog Select" from their local clinic, especially perhaps in an attempt to get into the proper attitude during the sabbath.

Do as we did in Armstrongism: Pick and choose what you believe to be of value. There may just be some occasion when what you really need in order to get through the day is a ripsnorting laugh, so intense that it makes you spray your iPhone with coffee! It happens here quite regularly!

BB