I received the following comment on a previous thread. It is supposedly from Philadelphia Church of God member. I could say something catty right now but will refrain. However, most here will see what is VERY wrong below.
- I am a member of the pcg, and I just want to say... GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT! Half of what you accusse us of is false. For your info we are not a cult. Gerald Flurry admits he has a small following, but you lie and say he claims to have a large one. PCG And Worldwide church of god are the same, we are just the next generation after hwa died. And that stupid article about Gerald Flurry telling us that we will be deported was false. We do not intend to become a large religion, we want to remain small.
You said in an older article of yours
- We purchased the plane simply to save money and make our travels quicker, the plane is small, I have been in it, its not meant for luxury and comfort.
You also said Gerald Flurry Prefers To See PCG Members "ROT" From Sickness Than See A Doctor. This is also false, we are allowed to see doctors, but he prefers us not to put all of our faith in them. Its god who heals.
Once again you said this "It has been well documented over the years on how abusive the Philadelphia Church of God has become under the leadership of Gerald Flurry. Families have been ripped apart, marriages destroyed and countless suicides have occurred because of the vile polices that Gerald Flurry has forced upon the membership of the Philadelphia Church of God"
- Just to start off, these policies are NOT forced upon us, we are not a cult. There has only been one suicide to take place by a pcg member. For each individual who takes his/her own life, at least 20 attempt to do so. Suicide has a global mortality rate of 16 per 100,000 people. And we have only had 1.
- Famillies are not torn apart but made happier in our church.
39 comments:
PCG is a cult! Anybody that thinks otherwise is a f**king idiot! Gerald Flurry learned how to sucker people out of their money by the example of the false prophet/false apostle Herb Armstrong!
Using this PCG stooge's figures that 16 people commit suicide out of 100,000, he convicts his church. That rate works out to about 1 in 6,250. Well, with PCG attendance at just 5,000, a rate of 1/5,000 is deadlier than average!
Having been a member of the PCG that met in Kenilworth NJ I will say it is most definitely a cult and a dangerous, life sucking, soul destroying, family destroying cult at that.
I watched people die from treatable diseases, needlessly.
People forced to trek to other states to meetings at great expense.
Tattle tale members turned one another in for self righteous ideas they had.
Marriages were not put together but pulled apart.
I recall one man whose wife was in LCG. He gossiped about how awful she was every Sabbath.
The ministry were suck ups to Flurry and treated the members like garbage.
One year a man with bladder problems got locked out of passover by the self righteous deacon because he dared to have to run to the bathroom during the service.
He suffered bladder tumors.
It is a horrible excuse for a church.
The people are extreme in self righteousness especially toward other groups.
Not terribly surprising. Armstrongism always passed precise Swiss blinders out to the membership, and they were very effective in keeping peoples' eyes from undoing the deep brainwashing.
All this poor commenter accomplished was to make readers contemplate his intelligence and mental stability.
BB
COMMENTATOR IN THE POST SAID--
"Just to start off, these policies are NOT forced upon us, we are not a cult. "
MY COMMENT-
The equivalency would be that Charlie Manson did not FORCE Susan Atkins and the others to perform murder, and therefore this means that they are not a cult.
Oh, for my long lost days of young believer innocence when I could naively defend Armstrongism like the hapless soul quoted in the post.
PCG elders have disfellowshipped members simply for reading "dissident" or "Laodicean" websites like this one, what to speak of POSTING on one.
If the poster isn't just a troll, he is either violating PCG guidelines, or he is one of the privileged elite, like Grant Turgeon, who know that the rules for ordinary members don't apply to him.
If the poster isn't one of the elites, he is defying the elites by posting here, which means he thinks he can defy the ministry, which means he will eventually be found out and disfellowshipped. Let's see how he defends PCG then!
What, they saved money by having their own private jet?
Well in that case, I'm gonna buy one as well. I'II save heaps and heaps of money.
The fact that the author presents this point of view, is not embarrassed by it, and expects the audience to believe him, says a lot. It's beyond undue influence.
In regards to the PCG commenter mention of PCG members rotting away from sickness that is a reference to this very disturbing passage by Gerald Flurry that seems to be praising people who choose to "remain loyal" and "trust" in (PCG's) God for healing sicknesses even if this choice causes them to die. Armstrongism teaches that at the moment of death a believer will awaken at the Second Coming transformed into a God being.
The following is from Gerald Flurry, The Last Hour, 2004, 2007, 2012, Chapter 5, p. 51.
***
"This is REAL, ABUNDANT LIVING—EVEN IF WE ARE DYING PHYSICALLY! Over the years in my ministry, I have seen a few people physically rot right before my eyes and yet remain loyal to God every step of the way to the end! Though it must be one of the most grotesque sights to see, at the same time it is one of the MOST MAJESTICALLY NOBLE examples ever on Earth, from God’s point of view! If someone is being loyal in circumstances like that, he or she is BEARING WITNESS OF THE FATHER! What a precious, extraordinary beauty that is! I know I will see those people again, and they will live FOREVER AND EVER! When resurrected, they won’t remember that trial for very long. They will have ETERNAL LIFE!
"Are you prepared to trust God to heal you, now or in the resurrection? Well done, good and faithful servant, He will say if we trust Him to the end."
***
End of quote.
Gerald Flurry talks of "[PCG's] God ... heal[ing] you, now or in the resurrection". That seems to be a reference to HWA's father. In HWA's Autobiography (Volume 1, Chapter 28) he talks of how in 1933 he prayed for his father all night to be miraculously healed of a heart attack in his unconscious presence and yet he was not healed and died. Afterward he decided that (HWA's) God would heal his father in the resurrection at the Second Coming which, in HWA's teachings, would seem to occur instantly after the moment of death from the perspective of HWA's father.
I encourage people to look at the source of Gerald Flurry's disturbing passage for themselves. This booklet can be viewed on their website.
After I stopped attending WCG back in '94, I never wanted anything whatsoever to do with any of those groups that broke away from the "mother" church. I knew it would be the same bull shit in which the leaders of those groups held their members in control using fear tactics against them.
The poster is obviously a top ranking member of the PCG. This paragraph alone said it all:
"We purchased the plane simply to save money and make our travels quicker, the plane is small, I have been in it, its not meant for luxury and comfort."
Notice the use of the pronouns 'We' and 'our' and also how they've had the privilege of being on the plane. A lay member wouldn't be afforded that luxury. They talk as if they have a stake in the church, and of this site is making members stop and think for themselves and actually leave, they have a very large stake.
Nice try but that paragraph gave it all away.
I was not allowed to attend my father-in-law's funeral because he was with Flurry and I'm with United. That makes them a mind control, fear driven cult.
Jesus would never have that attitude. Flurry is nuts.
This again, please everyone educate yourselves. The word "cult" is not an official medical or psychological description, it's a mish-mash of pop culture.
You are spreading lies by calling these groups cults. They are bad and horrible, but the word cult is a joke, and it's what Armstrong himself used to demonize other groups.
If you call a group a cult, you are quoting HWA and using his tactics of manipulation. Speak the truth. If you are too lazy to look it up, don't expect to not get called on your ignorance.
Bob Roberts
Bob Roberts,
From what you wrote I assume you believe no high demand groups should be called, "cults"
Do you also believe no one should be called a "jerk", since that's also not an official medical or psychological description?
Also, please provide evidence of where Herbie called a group a cult.
I'd love to see an example of such hypocrisy!
Thank you!
The best thing PCG could ever do for families would be to dissolve, but the leadership loves the free ride too much for that. :)
Bob Roberts
If you believe that the concept of abusive cults is nothing more than 'pop culture,' I suggest you read the popular 'Combatting cult mind control' by Steven Hassan.
Trying to pressure readers to pretend that cults don't exist by means of invalidation (a Scientology 'church' favorite) is in itself a abusive cult technique.
This is Bob Roberts
Readers of Banned are only to permitted to acknowledge concepts that I personally allow.
If I say no, everyone must fake reality and pretend that that concept does not exist.
If I say cats don't exist, then they don't exit.
I Bob Roberts have spoken.
6 months ago I left the church of my own free will, I am already marking what you say in your heart you know that it is not true I can give testimony since Sali recently if the crème and preacher of the amstrong porq proclaims himself king did you hear the service when the king was crowned the special music was the coronation of the as king? That the birthright of Israel is in him and in his family ... you remember it and you think it is correct, because I was last year at a party in Latin America and from several members I realized that many are tired, the only thing that binds them the church is to have a relative ... in El Salvador more than 20 members retired in Colombia 8 singles left or were expelled the minister's daughter died of cancer the other was suspended another member died also because of a dialysis that could not be done and in chile the daughter of the minister stopped attending services the church is running out and so will continue to happen while the predictions of Gerald flurry are not fulfilled, still waiting and 10 years ago told us that in three, probably happen wake up friend will not happen you well know that if it is a cult ... disguised as a church ... ..
Cats don't exit what ? Will the real bob Roberts please stand up.
Several points. Most of the long-term participants on these sites are aware of comprehensive lists of the characteristics typical of cults. These are what is used in the field of behavioral science to define cults. HWA used to win arguments in advance by redefining terms. We've seen posts by ACOG members over the years redefining and broadening the relatively narrow typical definition of "cult" soas to make the new definition apply to groups that behavioral scientists do not consider to be cults, or to foment cultic behavior in normal everyday lives.
The ACOGs are not just simple cults. They are toxic cults. Members are in reality codependents to the mad men and off-balance types who run them. You might be able to diffuse the cultic appelation by redefining that term, but you are still left with the basic toxicity, programmed by brainwashing and under duress, which ruins members' lives as opposed to allowing them to flourish and live victorious lives.
Words paint a wide variety of pictures. They do not produce good or evil. Behavior is what does that. If we stop using the word "cult", we'll need to broaden our vocabularies to come up with words that also describe the basically evil behavior, and ACOG members will not like those words, either.
BB
Are you a so deluded by your experiences? I grew up in WWCG and suffered horrible abuse, but I am not deceived about what a cult is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
You will never win an argument against PCG using a made up word. Call them out for what they have done. Like LYING, STEALING, ABUSE. The word cult is childish name calling.
You people lived under Armstrongism that you are still deluded by his teachings. He taught you that cults were an actual real thing. Where did he get that idea from? Catholics and pop culture.
Go ahead and use the word cult, but today it's only a weak minded pejorative.
Cult is as cult does!!!
2.15 PM
I read the Wikipedia article on cult. Did you??
You call it a 'made up word.' Aren't all words 'made up?' Isn't the definition of a word determined by public usage?
After reading the Wikipedia article, I fail to see how it is childish name calling.
But again, it's so cause you say so.
You get away with playing Napoleon at home and at church, but at Banned your fake power is jack.
PS technically the word cult is a integration of your lying, stealing, abuse etc. So we are not permitted to integrate concretes or concepts. No higher level concepts are allowed. Very convenient if you want to mentally stunt and control people. It's also murder.
Rob Roberts,
If you claim you're a member with pcg, why are you on the internet writing this? Are you not aware that pcg calls this dissident material and you will be suspended for it? We'll see if you're on here much longer. It will tell it all.
I use "cult" cuz it's easier to say than: fear-based mind controlling Bible based organization (as an 501c3 they & every tax free religious organization are not churches under USA law, you have to file as a 508c1a to be a church under tax law from what digging I did)
This all went in an odd direction. I realize the word "cult" usually (though not always) carries pejorative overtones and has a heavy popular usage, maybe even a cliched usage at that. But hey, sect, NRM, crackpot church, whatever term you like. I have little opinion.
But I dont recall HWA using the word frequently to defame others. Maybe some of you who attended longer than I can tell me if that was so.
Ultimately a diversion though from the OP.
Butane Is The Basterd Gas.
The only remarks I recall HWA making was that we were not a sect or a cult, we were "God's Church". You didn't hear those pejorative terms quite as often or as freely used back in the 1950s, and '60s. Charlie Manson had not yet hit, and that's when I remember the term cult coming into the mainstream, and carrying more of a stigma. Then, later in the '70s we started to hear of people being kidnapped from cults and deprogrammed. The word was used on Scientologists, devotees of Hari Krishna, the Synanon Center, the Moonies, and retrospectively on the followers of Jim Jones following the mass suicide in Guyana.
People in Armstrongism mostly deluded themselves that they were future mainstream, and that withdrawing from friends or family was a perfectly normal thing to do. There is a long history of denial within these churches that they could possibly be a cult. Many were shocked that a branch of SDAs, with a milder version of a very Armstrong-like theology, would end up as they did in Waco, and then later there was the Wisconsin sabbath massacre, an event that many of us had feared, but thought would probably be executed by one of the ministers rather than a lay member.
The thing is, we really wouldn't need the word to make people aware that the Armstrong churches are toxic, that they teach the negation of many time-honored Christian values, exploit and leverage members, abuse and deprive children, and cause an abundance of unneccessary fear and paranoia amongst the membership. I like using the word cult because it causes such a visceral reaction amongst the Armstrongites, and hopefully shocks some of them into asking some of the right questions.
As defined by the people whose research has created the standard list of cultic characteristics, there is no question that Armstrongism is a cult.
BB
Trying to make certain ideas such as rights, freedom and cult a taboo, is a cult trait. Christ is about setting people free rather than imprisoning peoples minds with taboos and political correctness.
There was always Flurrys line about "Mr Armstrong taught us to avoid educational areas like sociology, psychology, the world's theology..."
Since "cult" was used as a category in all those fields, I'm sure Flurry really didnt want people reading into those. :)
Anon at 10:41am, it sounds like PCG down in SA is disintegrating. I too left a few months ago and the couple left in the group were elderly and sick and yet were trying to figure out how to go to the fall feasts as they had been counting on me to drive them but i had declined. It is very sad.
As for the person who replied from PCG, they obviously do not know Janet Degenerro killed herself, or the daughter of a minister in Europe threw herself in front of a train a few years back so it is more than one. And maybe more but we were told they died of a heart attack or something else.
This person is obviously at HQ and could be a lay member as Flurry did allow the members to go tour the plane. However for this person to say the church would save money that is not his reason for buying the plane in his sermons way back in November 2016 or January 2017. I sat there and listened as he said it was so it would reduce his travel time and waiting in long lines at airports. It was so he could visit world leaders as HWA did.
And the fact this person is here shows they must have doubts themselves as they would very well know these sites are anathema to the church and they would be chastised by their minister for being here. I know as i admitted several years ago to my minister at the time of coming here out of curiosity and he warned that Satan would use this site and the other ones to lure me out and i was to stay away or i would end up out of the church. Strangely enough that did not do it it was all the spending HQ was doing and yet asking us year after year for 30 percent tithes, and 40 percent every 3rd year. Most of the people who i know left or put out was because of tithing and cutting family ties but tithing is probably the biggest reason.
Determining if a group is a cult is like determining if someone has a mental illness. It all depends on how you define such terms and where you draw the line. The psychiatric community is adding to the list of behaviors that are considered mental illnesses with each edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). A spoiled brat now is labeled as having Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD). In time, we might all be labeled as having a mental illness. If you define a cult as a religious group that has a source of authority beyond the Bible, claims that it is the only true church, and is the only church to legitimately offer the sacraments required for salvation, then could we consider, by this definition, the Roman Catholic Church to be a cult? The DSM lists the symptoms of each mental disorder. To be diagnosed as having a mental illness one has to have a certain number of symptoms from this list for a minimum amount of time. If the DSM says that the patient must show three out of the seven listed symptoms for six months, rather than five out of the seven for four months, you can see that this is rather arbitrary. Then you also have the problem of subjectivism. When John Hinckley tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan, some psychiatrists determined that he was mentally ill, others said that he wasn't.
List all the traits of a cult, determine how many are required to be qualify it as a cult and then you still have to deal with who gets to determine whether these traits are really there. To outsiders, the PCG, LCG, etc. have heavy handed, abusive, leadership. To members, they just offer strong leadership out of love for the member's eternal fate. I imagine that every cult believes that it is the church that is closest to the ultimate truth and all other churches are in ever greater error.
Steve, it all gets down to whether these conditions, regardless as to how we define them, cause problems for the people involved, or produce a higher percentage of badness than goodness.
The groups we define as cults have not only been identified and quantified by behavioral scientists, they were conspicuous in the first place because they have caused more badness in their members' lives and those close to the members, than they have goodness.
Even if we were to restrict ourselves to neutral labels, there is still the mountain of material regularly reported over at Exit and Support Network with which to contend.
It's really quite kind to the major groups of Armstrongism that we normally restrict ourselves to the relatively bland term "cult". When we consider those who have died due to refusal of proper medical care, horribly abused children, derailment of education and careers in deference to never fulfilled prophecy, the co-opting and takeover of members' blessings and wealth so they have nothing for old age, an intrusive, dictatorial, and punitive clergy, fraudulent misuse of tithes and offerings, and the extreme stress placed by a high-demand group, you have a confluence of horrendous conditions which is rarely found in one group. And, in spite of this, we have some outspoken ones who always complain about even the mildest euphemisms which we use to describe them. What they really want to do is elliminate any and all outside criticism or accountability. They are asking for the same type of consideration and treatment for themselves that they trash when it is requested by the LGBT community, and other historically mistreated groups.
Discussing all of the after-effects of Armstrongism is therapeutic, and has been a massive, and high-visibility project. There are those with a vested interest in denial and suppression, because they know it will be damaging to them if certain factual information is exposed and discussed. It makes their dwindling membership ask revealing questions.
BB
“PCG Member Claims PCG is NOT A Cult and that PCG Families Are Made Happier By The Church”
Families, and especially happier ones, are what people used to have BEFORE the Philanderer's Cult wrecked them with Gerald R. Flurry's “new commission,” which replaced preaching the true gospel of the kingdom of God that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught.
“Famillies are not torn apart but made happier in our church.”
Lying, slandering, sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators are what are really made happy in the PCG by its perverse policies and government of fraud.
This pcg member states: We purchased the plane simply to save money and make our travels quicker, the plane is small, I have been in it, its not meant for luxury and comfort.
At a price tag of $11 million? How about maintenance costs, annual inspections, fuel, insurance, monthly hangar fees and overnight parking elsewhere? Gerry needs to get an offsite account to do his math for him and he'll found out how many seat sales he could have to England and Israel in the remaining years he has left.
This pcg member states: We purchased the plane simply to save money and make our travels quicker, the plane is small, I have been in it, its not meant for luxury and comfort.
At a price tag of $11 million? How about maintenance costs, annual inspections, fuel, insurance, monthly hangar fees and overnight parking elsewhere? Gerry needs to get an offsite accountant to do his math for him and he'll found out how many seat sales he could have to England and Israel in the remaining years he has left.
7:19
I agree on the bizzclass tickets. However 11 million? Are you not aware of the corporate crises? These planes do 3 million these days. Hell, I saw Madonna taking easyjet from lisbon to london. These rainmakers are advised to maintain contact with their customer base.
Nck
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