"Just where do I fit in 'God's 6000 year plan for man?"
Kennewick Man is the name generally given to the skeletal remains of a prehistoric Paleoamerican man found on a bank of the Columbia River in Kennewick, Washington, United States, on July 28, 1996. It is one of the most complete ancient skeletons ever found. Radiocarbon tests on bone have shown it to date from 8,900 to 9,000 calibrated years before present.
What about we Natufians at Jericho?
What about we Natufians at Jericho?
Natufian hunter-gatherers, c. 10,000 BC
Jericho has evidence of settlement dating back to 10,000 BC. During the Younger Dryas period of cold and drought, permanent habitation of any one location was impossible. However, the Ein es-Sultan spring at what would become Jericho was a popular camping ground for Natufian hunter-gatherer groups, who left a scattering of crescent-shaped microlith tools behind them. Around 9600 BC, the droughts and cold of the Younger Dryas stadial had come to an end, making it possible for Natufian groups to extend the duration of their stay, eventually leading to year-round habitation and permanent settlement.
"Ahem...."
The world’s oldest monuments may soon get an image makeover. A new project will promote and preserve Göbekli Tepe, home to the most ancient temple structures ever discovered. Since excavations began in 1995, the site in southeastern Turkey has changed the way archaeologists think about the origins of civilization. Its circular structures, with their elaborately carved stones and distinctive, T-shaped pillars, are more than 12,000 years old—older than the invention of agriculture or even pottery.
"C'mon now!"
Cro-Magnon Man is a name applied to the earliest known European examples of Homo sapiens sapiens, modern human beings. Cro-Magnons lived from about 40,000 to 10,000 years ago in the Upper Paleolithic period of the Pleistocene epoch.
Church of God Answer
"Um ....well...they can't really know how old they are. They weren't really humans yet . Well I mean they never existed. We'll I mean they did obviously but they were Satan's people. Look, the Bible adds humans up to Adam and Eve around 4000 BCE so that settles it. Where's you faith! These scientists , falsely so called, just want to find ways to sin and break God's law. I heard of a scientist once who said just that! Besides..."Einstein had wild hair" (Dave Pack) You can't trust a scientist with wild hair. It's a shame for a man to have wild hair! Now put your hand down.....
52 comments:
The WCG had an article called "The Fraud Of Radio Carbon Dating" or some such title.
There is a lot of evidence even in scripture of "unknowns" beyond the Armstrong dogmas. Genesis speaks of "others" that Cain was afraid of when he was banished. Of course, there are the "heroes of old" and the "nephilim" that are also mentioned. And of course, we have the Dinosaurs and other extinct animals that are also out there. There's also the enigmas of the Sumerian King's List, and other ancient enigmas that there's not yet an explanation for.
Armstrongism has always been a black and white kind of religion, with little room for gray areas (except for the Gap theory). Taking a look at history, there's a lot out there that just can't be explained by the inflexibility of that kind of thinking. I am convinced there is a lot we do not understand - and it seems that history has always proven that whenever mankind is bold and egotistical enough to think they have things figured out, something comes along to prove that humankind knows absolutely nothing.
I can't help but think of Job, and how arrogant he was - and when encountered by a highly superior Godly intelligence, he was dumbstruck at how stupid his thought processes were. I can't help but think that even now, humankind, as arrogant as we perceive ourselves to be, has fallen into that same trap - being so certain of things with no room for the possibility that things may not be understood in exactly the way that they thought they were to be understood. I am convinced that when the time comes for all truth to be revealed in full - all of us are going to be surprised, and very much dumbfounded - at how puny our thoughts and theories have been, and are.
We think we understand - but we're just human. We know relatively NOTHING. And the sooner we can understand and admit that, and throw away our ego and hubris, the faster we can begin to really understand.
Time, space, quantum theory, multiple dimensions, parallel realities, physics, wormholes - these are all things that can't be ignored, and most of us can't understand them. But because we can't understand them doesn't mean they don't exist. It means we should, with thought, and with effort, realize that, as Job, we should see our knowledge is absolutely nothing compared to the limitless intelligence that is plainly seen in the reality around us - and our boldness and arrogance should probably be best tempered with a little bit of humility, and the ability to be open to a little bit of thinking.
Thinking, btw, does not have to invalidate one's beliefs, even with Christianity. Job didn't abandon his beliefs when challenged - he put his hand over his mouth and admitted he had nothing left to say. Maybe sometimes, we should do the same things instead of being so dogmatic and arrogant in our opinions. When the Earth was proved to be round, not flat, that wasn't met with little dispute. It was quite the accusation of heresy in it's time. What will we do when we come to the conclusion that some of our long held beliefs were simply wrong? How will we react? Would we react as Job, or would we close our brains and minds and close our thoughts to a little bit of higher intellect? Just some food for thought.
I am not sure what Armstrongists in general would say about human development. I know Herman Hoeh felt that the fossil record was accurate. He did divide human anthropological history into Pre-Adamic and Adamic periods.
The really odd belief Hoeh had was that God had to develop man by creating successively more complex models. This accounts for the hominids of increasing complexity in the fossil record. To Herman, God was not omniscient or omnipotent but was like a human engineer who has to use models to develop the final creation. To HWA and Herman, God was really like a superhuman rather than a God. For them, God had a body, lived in spacetime, ate food, and did not know the future. This, of course, is a profound mistake and is based on a failure to recognize the anthropomorphism of the OT.
Modern man was around about 200,000 years ago although new discoveries may push that back further. But man with the sentience to know God lived much later in the Neolithic.
Genetically, I am related to Kennewick Man. I am also related to much earlier Eurasian people who lived around Lake Baikal in Siberia. But I believe that I am much different from them with regard to sentience. (At this point, the troll should show up and remind me that I am "genetically challenged".)
Anon 719, your post resonates with me. You put it better than I would have (although mine would have been shorter).
The gap theory is based on the notion that Genesis 1 verse 2 should be rendered "and the Earth had become...." The Hebrew translated as "and" is a waw --- it's a little tick mark and joins two clauses. There is a waw disjunctive and a waw conjunctive. The one used in that text is a conjunctive. It means "and", not "but", and accordingly, the clause after it describes the state of that to which the clause before it refers. This cannot be translated to mean that the creation changed. It didn't become anything. I learned this from an acquaintance who taught biblical languages at graduate school level and who himself consulted on the question with professors of Hebrew at 6 universities, including Hebrew University. All six said that it cannot be translated as "had become".
Sadly, Stephen Hawking has just passed away. I can’t imagine living such a long life in his various health conditions, although I’ve often stated that one’s mind is one’s favorite toy!
BB
Interesting stuff, always.
I remember well when JTkach visited the Epcott Center in about 1987 and changed the interpretation on hominids. It didn't violate prior teachings at that time. I mean even the Chinese can have 5 year economic plans within 3000 years of history. Why shouldn't God work in an agile sprint manner while developing software for character building. (A 6000 year plan would be an agile sprint over a 200.000 year time period, would it not. Especially since time does not exist on the fundamental level. (But that is an entirely different topic.)
I wondered often about the issue NEO raises.
"The really odd belief Hoeh had was that God had to develop man by creating successively more complex models. This accounts for the hominids of increasing complexity in the fossil record. To Herman, God was not omniscient or omnipotent but was like a human engineer who has to use models to develop the final creation."
To me God seemed like a "learning God". He was lobbied by Noah and Moses to ammend some of his decisions after all. God placed a rainbow to remind himself he/it had learned.
Perhaps the point of "Jesus" could be expounded upon further, IF God was not a learning God, working with human prototypes? What does God know in advance about the future, if he pleads with mankind to CHOOSE life?
And most of all........IF you are some kind of antropomorphic entity floating (or being) /(in) the 8th dimension, encompassing all power and energy in the universe, being the "all" figuring do something special......HOW on earth would one come up with the idea of modelling humans as they are??
That is only rational if one sees things in retrospect. Not from the point of conceiving an idea to accomplish something great, which is an assumption I realize. Perhaps he/it was just fooling around with stardust and playing with energy turning it into matter, of course knowing in advance that the hindu would develop an entire religion around that concept. But hey, that would be just collateral (damage) in the overall plan of seeing how those prototypes would respond to just observable revelations.
nck
Anon 7:19 PM, I couldn't have put it better myself.
Who cares?! In this life it is the present that counts, not looking back in the past at what may or may not have happened. I have always been a looking forward person, someone who plans for the future no matter what may or may not happen. Dwelling on the ignorant shit that that you seem to be fixated on has nothing to do with the here & now. Here is a suggestion, perhaps you should consider getting on medication. If you have left that Armstrong nonsense , maybe you should finally let it go.
Anonymous said...
Who cares?! In this life it is the present that counts, not looking back in the past at what may or may not have happened.
It is important for the future of any Church of God teen "lurking" here to realize the foolishness of the 19th century view adopted by the Church and one they can never gracefully extract themselves from without doctrinal upheaval. Few in the adult population in the splits, splinters and slivers will be upgrade their critical thinking anymore. That is the opportunity for the next.
First of all, dating of Gobekli Tepi is known to suffer from the overwhelming impulse of diggers to claim an older date than other finds. As the article said "it overturns the way archaeologists think of mans orgins". This find was built before agriculture etc.
Well not all or even most archaeologists. The longstanding anthropological narrative says that "hunter gatherers" spent most of their day hunting and gathering. It required agriculture to enable career specialization. Workers who made elaborately carved stone structures like Gobekli Tepi had to break for prepared lunches. It is believed that Tepi is a "temple site" of some kind. But there is little to no organic material at the site - no nearby farms or villages in the archaeological record and the dating is simply suspect. Radiocarbon dating on stones alone are not decisive. You need carbon based items attached or embedded in them.
As for Kennewick Man - did they find any writing with him? A tax receipt in clay cuneiform that fell out of a pocket in his animal skin tarp perhaps?
Humans live quite differently from animals. Humans have civilization with agriculture, industry, arts, writing, music, architecture ....
The oldest known bit of civilization remains a clay tablet itemizing purchased items (markets are civilization too) found in ancient Sumeria about 4500 years ago. Find some more of that and get back to us. :)
One man's "ignorant shit" 322 is another's freedom from it
I am still trying to get the picture here. DDiehl seems to be saying that the WCG (and the fragment churches subsequently) believed in a form of Young Earth Creationism -- it all started about 6,000 years ago. This was true when I first came into the WCG long ago. For instance, they believed that Neanderthal was descended from Adam but was pre-flood. (I believe they also thought the Neanderthal were the Nephilim.) They may have regarded Australopithecus as an animal - I'm not sure how they sorted hominids or if they even did. I do remember an article that was published about this.
Hoeh revolutionized this view in the early Seventies. He posited a pre-Adamic world and placed Neanderthal there in agreement with the dating that was current in the scientific community then. This altered the picture of the ancient world for the WCG. He also introduced the erroneous concept of God as experimental engineer at this time.
As a advocate of theistic evolution, I have a set of beliefs that agrees with both science and the Bible and I will not attempt to convey that here. But let me say that I believe the pivotal period in human history was when man came to have the sentience to deal with advanced spiritual concepts. I believe this to be the result of Imago Dei. Archaeology is usually not conclusive because of progressive discovery but this period may have been around Layer III of Gobekli Tepe or 8,000 BCE.
(If you believe that this sudden ascendancy of the human mind at around 8,000 BCE is a product of evolution, please consult the monograph entitled "Mind & Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False" by noted philosopher and atheist Dr. Thomas Nagel.)
Note: I do not hold with the idea commonly found in the Christian community that Nephilim were the product of angels cohabiting with women. I think the Nephilim were just celebrated human descendants of Adam (due to their size and robustness, the star athletes of the day)and were fathered by men who were referred to as "sons of God" because there was some knowledge of Theosis. Nowhere does the Bible indicate that angels are biological beings or have biological capabilities.
703 your view of Gobekli Tepi is out of date with continued findings. It is proving to be a temple site where the hunters turned gatherers settled, farmed, made beer, ground grain and partied with a fascination for human skulls. Thousands of flint tools and millions of chips making them litter the site.
Artifacts and human remains don't have to come with a driver's license in a wallet to be dated and declared human
Anonymous 7:03
What is your point? Maybe I am reading too much into what your wrote. Some comments:
Gobekli Tepe is dated from radiocarbon methods applied to charcoal samples from the various levels.
Why would Kennewick Man have writing with him be important? Are you trying to say that he was not actually a human? Kennewick carries the same Y-Chromosome as modern Native Americans - he is not some kind of separate humanoid species.
Archaeology does not tell us when and how writing originated. 4,500 BP is well after the Ussher's putative date for Adam. This would make Adamic man illiterate for the first 1,500 years - that's a long, long time. What is this intended to prove?
Lots of loose ends. Your post needs clarification.
“Who cares?” Well, I do. I like to know how things work, which means knowing at least a bit about how they used to be. I believe the problem which would make someone say “who cares?” is that somebody in our past lives pretended to know everything about everything, and a large amount of what they taught us ended up being bogus. So, for some, “who cares?” becomes part of “Won’t get fooled again!”. It is totally understandable that someone in recovery could take that attitude.
As an example (and this is something I recently pointed out on a blog dedicated to those escaping one of the worst of the current Armstrongism false prophets), our former teachers claimed to know something unknowable, the time of Jesus’ return. They saw that in the book of Revelation, math is well laid out for the end times once the tribulation begins. The part that is unknown is specifically when the tribulation would start. So, “they” claimed to know this based on a theory “6,000 years for man, 1,000 years for God”. They went back and calculated the geneologies, and determined by math that we were currently living in the end times, and vigorously preached this. Now, if this theory were true, Jesus would most certainly have known the year of creation, (especially if according to another of their theories, He was actually the God of the Old Testament!) and could have easily done the math, added 6,000 years, and known exactly when He was to return. But, He stated plainly that even He didn’t know. The only possible explanation is that this part of prophecy is not based on math. It is based on conditions on planet Earth. “Only the Father knows” because only the Father knows how bad He would allow conditions involving humanity to become before pulling the plug. Therefore, anyone who claims that by math they can know when the end will come is misguided and passing erroneous information, because that part of the equation is based on conditions, not on math. The hominids play a very important part in knowing that Armstrongism did not have the answers which they claim to know. The creatures began to be able to record and communicate their thoughts approximately 10,000 years ago. Whether this was by natural processes, or God-ordained, that is when mankind began to be capable of accumulating knowledge, assuming dominance as a species, and triggering the holocene or anthropocene extinction. This extinction is an open-ended process, although the extinction of various other species upon which humans are dependent appears to have accelerated since the industrial revolution.
BB
The "gap" theory in Genesis 1 v 2
Strong's Concordance hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become
Hayah is stating the original creation became without form and void.
The recreation in Genesis one states the obvious of "replenishing" the Earth.
Anon 7:16 wrote: "The WCG had an article called "The Fraud Of Radio Carbon Dating" or some such title. "
Seriously? You think this is an accurate article? It is not. It is extremely out of date and filled with erroneous errors. Nothing that WCG published should be taken as sure truth no matter how glossy it seemed. WCG was so determined to disprove evolution that it jumped to too many false conclusions and presented them as "well researched" fact.
Two words: Cave writings. They start with primitive hand imprints, progress to stick figures and symbols, and the Egyptians later segued the process into hieroglyphics.
The cave writings document man learning to record his thoughts. That process was already complete by the time of the Sumerian civilization. The Sumerians were already quite advanced, and are known to have been extensive keepers of records, much of that preserved in clay.
BB
"We are all different - but we share the same human spirit" -- Stephen Hawking
Against the backdrop of a former AC Pasadena student back in the Seventies telling me that AC was "Israelites" only because the Gentile mind could not understand God's Truth.
I had asked a relative of mine, who is a Missionary Baptist preacher, if he had ever heard of Armstrong's teaching on the 7,000 year plan of God? He told me Herbert Armstrong was a dumb ass and I should burn WCG literature. I should have burned the literature instead of getting my ass mixed up in that cult.
Re: Theistic Evolution:
I don't see why the theory is so difficult to understand.
When a computer program needs fine tuning, or a progress update, the code is changed. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The developer does not have to change the whole thing, the developer simply has to tweak the codings.
If I understand the theory of theistic evolution correctly, God, to prolong the lives of their creation due to changes in climate, environment, etc., does this exact thing. He "simply" alters the programming language which is contained in DNA to a new sub-program to change the being into a form which can adapt to the given environment.
If a computer programmer can do it with our technology and programs, then I don't see why a Divine Programmer, who understands the programming language of DNA, can't also change the program by altering the DNA.
Fundamentalists may see such a viewpoint as heretical and false - but that is because they cannot accept that the Bible is written to it's very techno-illiterate audience in images they can understand. The book of Genesis doesn't say that in the beginning, God (insert technological information about biological processes, DNA, etc.). It simply says raised Adam from the dust. It doesn't talk about DNA with Eve or a "cloning" process. It uses the word "rib" with imagery they can understand.
Again, this is just theory. But, in our generation of understanding of human biology and DNA - in my opinion - not considering the understanding we have today about how things work? And how God just may have done things differently then we have ever understood until now? That's not conflicting with scripture. That's just dumb.
Beer at Gbekli Tepe?
At Smithosonian.com, the record of Gobekli Tepe's discovery is accurately stated. There were no settlements, cooking hearths, houses, trash pits or even clay figurines at the site.
The dating is based on finding flint "tools" that had been dated at 9000 BC at other sites. Archaeologists like to use radiocarbon dating if possible. They want to find carbon that is embedded or somehow directly tied to the site during the period being studied. But it is really difficult most of the time to know if carbon material was spread later or was ever part of the site.
Often times, radiocarbon dates that don't fit prevailing narratives are simply tossed out. That could be more than half tested. And as in the case of Gbekli Tepe - dating is indirect - based on other sites which may suffer the same issues.
Bottom line - Archaeologists are not interested in refuting a biblical narrative as you are here. Their dates are part of their prevailing narrative - not meant as evidence in your cause. It is accepted that their dating could be revised.
The past is murky. But when civilization appears, it is fully recognizable with all its specialization and control of environments. There is no smoking gun record of real, observable civilization older than 4500 years or so.
Someone mentioned that my argument for 4500 years leaves Adam and offspring as allegedly "illiterate" with no evidence of civilization going back 6000 years. But the bible says a global flood completely destroyed early civilizations. That water would have come from deep in the earth (which recently has been shown to be sufficient to cover earth's mountains btw) and would have largely destroyed evidence of civilizations.
Dennis- seriously!
There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that Cro-Magnon women wore flowers in their hair as you have pictured in your post.
Please do publish a public retraction of this error in your thesis.
Thank you.
Humans adorn themselves Connie and Cromagnon is responsible for beautiful cave art. Beads found also indicate self adornment. We're also pretty sure they wore unfindable clothing in ice age France. I assume you're being cheeky😉
9:44, I’d recommend that you read up on radiocarbon dating. If you believe scientists are going around looking for carbon so they can date surrounding artifacts, it is clear that you have zero understanding of radioisotopes, half lifes, etc.
BB
DD
If you would ever visit the Dordogne caves be aware to stay on the designated tourist paths. Or your current sensitive cultural allignment might be shocked on french opinions on clothing or the lack thereof in relation to a walk through this historic area. Flower adornment might be what you d be wishing for in meeting adam or eve.
Nck
Well, let's consult a radiocarbon dating laboratory service.
https://c14.arch.ox.ac.uk/dating.html
[Radiocarbon dating is one of the most widely used scientific dating methods in archaeology and environmental science. It can be applied to most organic materials and spans dates from a few hundred years ago right back to about 50,000 years ago - about when modern humans were first entering Europe.
What can be dated?
For radiocarbon dating to be possible, the material must once have been part of a living organism. This means that things like stone, metal and pottery cannot usually be directly dated by this means unless there is some organic material embedded or left as a residue.
As explained below, the radiocarbon date tells us when the organism was alive (not when the material was used). This fact should always be remembered when using radiocarbon dates. The dating process is always designed to try to extract the carbon from a sample which is most representative of the original organism.
In general it is always better to date a properly identified single entity (such as a cereal grain or an identified bone) rather than a mixture of unidentified organic remains.]
I'd say that is pretty clear. Living things on earth are "carbon based" lifeforms.
9:44 I'd recommend you read more about what is now known about the ice age and the younger dryas period about 13,600 years ago. The physical record clearly shows that at the Last Glacial Maximum there where ice sheets over the north american and european continent that were 1 to 2 miles thick. The Younger Dryas period was when the world was suddenly thrust back into the ice age for 1000 years the result of a comet strike epicentered in north america.
Evidence for modern humans goes as far back as 40,000 to 100,000 years. The world wide flood myths were from the sudden and catastrophic melting of the ice caps after the comet impact. Just look at the Washington Scab-lands, the New York finger lakes, etc for evidence you can see with your own eyes.
We are a species with amnesia primarily a direct result of the catastrophic comet strike 13,600 years ago. The bible says there were people prior to the flood, and Genesis gives no timeline for how long prior. The timelines were added by other authors and frankly conflict with each other-- think not? just compare the two geneologies for Jesus.
The Svablands are awesome and just east of me. Will go to dry falls this summer. Grew up around ice gouged fingerlakes in NY
Numbersman Seattle. Lets tour the Scablands! The Carolina Bays may be the result if ice splatter from comet hitting ice sheet above Michigan leading to Younger Dryas as melt water flowed out the St Lawrence and cut off the Gulf Stream for awhile
Anonymous 9:44 wrote:
"Someone mentioned that my argument for 4500 years leaves Adam and offspring as allegedly "illiterate" with no evidence of civilization going back 6000 years. But the bible says a global flood completely destroyed early civilizations..."
Archaeological evidence does not support this idea. There is no dearth of archaeological artifacts from the period 4500 BC through 6000 BC that would be compatible with the idea of global destruction. If there had been writing, it would have survived in some format - and probably did - we just haven't found it yet.
Herman Hoeh, to quote an authority that you would believe, did not believe that there was much evidence of a global flood. He told us in an assembly in the Field House that he had been to a flood zone some months after the disaster had occured, viewed it from an aircraft, and could really see no significant damage. Herman himself would argue that any writing would be discoverable.
I have another reason as to why Hoeh cannot find evidence of a global flood - there was none. There was a local flood that struck the area where the Clans of Adam were living. It was a disaster for a relatively confined and small population.
I have an article written by a Ph.D. geologist who taught at the University of New Mexico. She did an analysis of the Hebrew language associated with the flood and demonstrated its ambiguity. Eretz can meanboth earth or homeland. She was able to roughly identify the boundaries of the small area where the flood occurred - somewhere around the Tigris - Euphrates flood plain.
Einstein copied everything, even his wild hairdoo.
At this point, the troll should show up and remind me that I am "genetically challenged"
Look up the IQ map and decide that for yourself. Of course, it will only give averages. But why put words in somebody else's mouth? It's stupid. Or, perhaps it is integrity challenged.
I don't think anyone on here knows jack about radio carbon dating. Just a bunch of wanna-be scholars.
"I have an article written by a Ph.D. geologist ... She did an analysis ...."
She probably got her degree through some kind of affirmative action program for radicals. Or maybe she did her professor some favors, like Monica did, and Bill's other girlfriends.
Yes,12:47, but being carbon based is not how the life forms got the isotope, when they stopped getting the isotope, and when the residual isotope began losing its radioactivity so that a timeline based on a current measurement of that radioactivity could be established. It’s so much more than just looking for some carbon!
BB
"... the New York finger ... "
That's what you can expect from a New Yorker.
[There is no dearth of archaeological artifacts from the period 4500 BC through 6000 BC that would be compatible with the idea of global destruction.]
How about the entire genetic makeup of European civilizations being completely changed out 4500 years ago?
https://www.livescience.com/28954-ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished.html
[The findings, detailed today (April 23) in the journal Nature Communications, were drawn from several skeletons unearthed in central Europe that were up to 7,500 years old.
"What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don't know why," said study co-author Alan Cooper, of the University of Adelaide Australian Center for Ancient DNA, in a statement. "Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was." ....... about 5,000 to 4,000 years ago, the genetic profile changes radically, suggesting that some mysterious event led to a huge turnover in the population that made up Europe.]
Dating of archaeological artifacts is not precise during the period of 4500-6000 years ago. Lets not pretend a precision that doesn't exist. Often archaeologists are working from fragments of bone or bits of items they think were fashioned by people.
NEO, could you provide me with a link to a copy of the article you reference? I've done extensive field study on the possibility of a global flood, and the evidence is definitely not there. The Hebrew in Genesis also allows for a limited local flood. As a published scientist (and that certainly did not come from my AC years) living in the 4 Corners region, I have examined the geologic record firsthand for decades. Predictably, the cogs continue to closed- mindedly cling to the discredited "Genesis Flood" book as proof of the flood when error is shown to them.
I did report on carbon dating as a student. As 7.03 AM points out, historically veritable dates only go back to about 5000 BC and then hit a wall. Carbon dating is reasonable accurate within this time frame, but its accuracy outside of this is unknown. A reminder that carbon dating has assumptions such as the suns activity being constant, and no massive dumping of carbon into the atmosphere. Since these assumptions cannot be proven, claims of items being hundreds of thousands years old should be treated with a grain of salt.
We can clearly see, with some of the attitudes and misunderstandings expressed above towards science how some people manage to remain convinced of their Armstrongism. Is there any hope? Probably not through facts. Ironically, that well has already been poisoned for people who have been convinced that they are the ultimate seekers (and finders) of truth. However, two things these folks can’t deny are the continued failure of the Armstrong prophecy mold, and the ways in which the splinter leaders are evolving the movement towards themselves, and to augment their own power, and gradually away from many of the specifics established by the man who created Armstrongism, HWA. Failure, and basic evolution. Those are the factors which will ultimately end the Armstrong problem. Oh, and death. Upon our deaths, we all become gnostic. Or not.
BB
I don't think anyone with any authority on the subject has found evidence of a global flood or the residu thereof.
There is however numerous proof of localized floods.
One of the sources of many localized floods was of course the melting of the icecaps.
Only at crossroads like the "Pas de Calais", "the pillars of hercules" (entrance of the mediterenean), "bosporus" (entrance of the black sea), or the even the Tigris Delta this may have caused violent breakthroughs at times.
Up to the breakthroughs peoples may have witnessed many "Niagara Falls" and slowly rising waters in areas previously occupied or serving as landbridges between Germany and England or France and Southern England, peoples following rivers, for meat, like the combined Rhine/Thames river which is actually the same river.
Now what is my point. Waters have risen slowly, (Helgoland=Atlantis?) making entire or occupied territories disappear (Black Sea) etc.
If in the future a holy book will describe the occurences at Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Fukushiuma, as "the destruction of men, because of their sins and arrogance" I would learn valuable spiritual lessons, which have a scientific base in all sciences.
Now, did in fact people survive the carnage at Hiroshima, Nagasaki Fukushima, of course they did. At least 50% and more in Fukushyma. Were the disasters prevented by mankind. NO. Did the disasters occur through sheer arrogance of mankind. YES it did. (Japanese are just examples of mankind no racial slur intended)
I think that rising waters at the Tigris Delta, for which there is proof, wiped away civilisation. It must have looked as if these waters, "were rising from the earth", and global climate change might have also incurred heavy rainfall.
Did they feel invincible in their powerfull cities. Yes they did, pretty much as invincible as the European powers felt just before WorldWar One occured and everything changed.
Now that is something worthy to record through oral tradition into the written.
nck
BB
It is ridiculous to liken Armstrongism with people not accessing scientific knowledge.
One cannot fault a 19th century man for citing 19th century sources.
Armstrongism was extremely enlightened for offering solutions (like the gap theory) for religion to survive, while the DELUGE of Darwinism covered the entire world and sciences.
I am not saying that is a bad thing. I am saying that "fundamentalism" in the 1920's was a reaction to the all prevailing Darwinism creeping into all philosophy. It is also the overall tone of the first chapters of "the Autobiography". It was a war between religion and Darwinism. (not science perse) but the belief that "God was dead."
Armstrongims offered many solutions (and "proof") for those not wanting to let go of their "dead God".
nck
Maybe in your house it’s ridiculous to liken Armstrongism with people not accessing scientific knowledge, nck. And, as you say, Armstrongism offered many proofs, and not just limited to encroaching Darwinism. The problem is, the supposed proofs all turned out to be shallow and wrong, and very valid sciences were ignored, or ridiculed and rejected. Armstrongism was also very selfish, and mostly defended and promoted itself, and not the greater faith community. We were all basically secessionists from society, self-imposed oddballs and pariahs enabling and financially supporting the teachings and phenomenal ego of one tyrannical man. It was a total bust, with far more negatives tipping the scale than positives. Much recovery is required in the aftermath. There is nothing of any value to be salvaged, with the exception of “won’t get fooled again”.
BB
Cognac Willie:
As soon as I can locate the article in my stack, I will post the citation here - so check back. It was published by the Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation.
NOTOHWA:
"She probably got her degree through some kind of affirmative action program for radicals. Or maybe she did her professor some favors, like Monica did, and Bill's other girlfriends." -- Anonymous 4:25
How do you justify publishing this kind of puerile nonsense? I believe moderation implies there are some standards that have to be met.
NOTOHWA:
Has comment moderation really been enabled?
BB
I get it. We were blinding ourselves by our own light, so to speak.
One of the few questions I have left in regard of our former affiliation is what the attraction was for some really educated people.
Even now, I know of people at the forefront of knowledge and scientific research, dwarving most of us with their iq, being slaves in the worst of cults.
The common denominator between most members past and present seems to have been a disturbed relationship with "father figures" and hwa/current leader serving as some kind of substitute.
It was that way for Magda Goebbels too. A sad woman, wanting most of live, having affairs at one time with the founders of Israel and then making the wrong bet.
I still stand by my expansion of the inception of armstrongism within a greater context of "fundamentalism" in the 1920's as a reaction to Darwinism, making the first chapters of "the autobiography" a fascinating read from that wider context.
On the Balkans I was flipping channels and saw jimmy swaggert after a long time. I wondered how he was salvaged or the other fools/wizzards/snake oil salesmen on that channel for that matter.
Nck
Back in the old forum days of about 15 years ago, we were hoping for some good diversity, so we’d have additional perspectives from some of our brothers and sisters whom the doctrines had not so subtly
marginalized. Seeing humanity as an ecosystem with everyone filling a very much needed function works out best in terms of sharing ideas and experiences. It’s been some years, but finally we have diversity, and it’s working!
Unfortunately, we’ve also gotten a lesson as to why “hard right” doesn’t work. Hard right does not place everyone on equal footing, in fact, it attempts to remarginalize. We’ve got an Adolf problem. Adolf is not our spokesman, and does not represent the majority of opinions here. I certainly hope the sheer ugliness of his worldview does not run anyone off! Most of us worked very hard to promote the same diversity here that we know most of the old WCG congregations had in major cities. Only this time we get to do it right! Let’s not let one anonymous Adam-Henry urinate in our punch bowl!
BB
"Seriously? You think this is an accurate article? It is not."
Did he say it was accurate?
The left is all for diversity of opinion. Unless you disagree with them. Then they are anti-free speech and pro-PC. They love tolerance too, but they only tolerate people on the left. They hate you and misrepresent you if you expose their lies. But they own all the media including the cuckservatives at Fox.
"... Gbekli Tepe - dating is indirect..."
This is incorrect. Here's a link showing what was dated and what it dated to. Maybe carbon dating s wrong but they did date several items including plaster (I have no idea how that works). The flint style types found do match up with the carbon dating.
https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2016/06/22/how-old-ist-it-dating-gobekli-tepe/
Post a Comment