Trafficking in Man-Made Religion
There have always been those who take advantage of others for their personal ego, for the love of power and the love of free $money. For whatever reason, many human beings have willingly submitted their lives and their pocketbooks to those who falsely assume authority unto themselves.
Man-made religion is as old as human beings from the beginning of human history. The assumption that religious gurus have some magical power is as old as dirt and it is always based upon fear. Superstition has played a major role in human behavior for ages.
Is belief in "Holy" books really a superstitious belief? We may all poke fun at and ridicule the superstitions of human beings who think rocks have spirits or that mountains have spirits, or that it is a curse of the spirits if it does not rain or a thousand other superstitious beliefs, but few see what they consider "sacred" as superstitious. It is easy to look upon the superstitions of certain human cultures in this world as childish and juvenile, all the while thinking that what we believe is "mature" and "sensible."
Is it really sensible to submit your life to some human priest or pastor, as if they commune with God on a daily basis? If in fact the gift of the Holy Spirit is for all individuals, then is it not sensible that every human being on earth has the potential of a direct relationship with God, without the interference of self-appointed religious rulers? No pastor of any church on earth communes with God Almighty directly and in fact everything he or she preachers is simply personal opinion and nothing more. Pastors have no authority, no special calling and no particular knowledge about God, that makes them over, above, and in authority over another human beings.
You may read in some verses in the New Testament that God gives authority to certain individuals and that they are to be "obeyed", but that is simply intentional deception by those who penned such words. Did God really "inspire" some men to pen or write what is called "the Bible?" If He did, then He is of all people a very confusing author who contradicts Himself in countless ways.
Is belief in "Holy" books really a superstitious belief? We may all poke fun at and ridicule the superstitions of human beings who think rocks have spirits or that mountains have spirits, or that it is a curse of the spirits if it does not rain or a thousand other superstitious beliefs, but few see what they consider "sacred" as superstitious. It is easy to look upon the superstitions of certain human cultures in this world as childish and juvenile, all the while thinking that what we believe is "mature" and "sensible."
Is it really sensible to submit your life to some human priest or pastor, as if they commune with God on a daily basis? If in fact the gift of the Holy Spirit is for all individuals, then is it not sensible that every human being on earth has the potential of a direct relationship with God, without the interference of self-appointed religious rulers? No pastor of any church on earth communes with God Almighty directly and in fact everything he or she preachers is simply personal opinion and nothing more. Pastors have no authority, no special calling and no particular knowledge about God, that makes them over, above, and in authority over another human beings.
You may read in some verses in the New Testament that God gives authority to certain individuals and that they are to be "obeyed", but that is simply intentional deception by those who penned such words. Did God really "inspire" some men to pen or write what is called "the Bible?" If He did, then He is of all people a very confusing author who contradicts Himself in countless ways.
Believing strongly in what one thinks is "truth", may be very sincere, but sincerity is no gauge or qualification of truth. Anyone can believe deeply that their convictions are right, all the while not discerning that they may be very wrong.
Members of all Worldwide Church of God splinter groups are programmed by superstition that they are to follow and obey their church rulers, pastors or elders. That is nothing more than religious superstition and has no basis in the truth of who God Almighty is. Herbert W. Armstrong was and is no more, yet many still bow and worship at his grave as if he was a spokesman for God. HWA was a spokesman for no one other than himself. And all WCG splinter group heads who think HWA was God in the flesh are either complete con-artists or so naive and so gullible that they are juvenile in their mentality.
HWA no more spoke for Jesus Christ than the fake "apostle" Paul did, or for that matter any or all of the countless thousands of other church groups who make the pretense of representing Jesus Christ.
Members of all Worldwide Church of God splinter groups are programmed by superstition that they are to follow and obey their church rulers, pastors or elders. That is nothing more than religious superstition and has no basis in the truth of who God Almighty is. Herbert W. Armstrong was and is no more, yet many still bow and worship at his grave as if he was a spokesman for God. HWA was a spokesman for no one other than himself. And all WCG splinter group heads who think HWA was God in the flesh are either complete con-artists or so naive and so gullible that they are juvenile in their mentality.
HWA no more spoke for Jesus Christ than the fake "apostle" Paul did, or for that matter any or all of the countless thousands of other church groups who make the pretense of representing Jesus Christ.
If it were possible and all human beings on earth suddenly and permanently stopped supporting all pastors and all churches and all 501C3 "not for profit" religious organizations, the world would change dramatically and immediately for the better.
Van Robison
Van Robison
30 comments:
In the WCG there was the statement and assumption that Pastors had some kind of "double dose" of the Holy Spirit.
This (in effect) made them "smarter and wiser" than your "everyday lay person". Thus, religious hierarchy prevailed, and a religious sociological pecking order.
Tonto said...
In the WCG there was the statement and assumption that Pastors had some kind of "double dose" of the Holy Spirit.
This (in effect) made them "smarter and wiser" than your "everyday lay person". Thus, religious hierarchy prevailed, and a religious sociological pecking order. '
I did not find that to be remotely true or assumed. There may have been some who played Bible games with who they thought they were, but I never heard such a concept uttered or taught to the ministry as a whole. There was pecking order. It was based on classifications that one sees in scripture and translated in WCG as local elder, preaching elder, pastor, evangelist and Apostle. It was all ridiculous and position had little if anything to do with whether a man was a good helper of people's joy or the proverbial sheriff.
"He that is 'greatest' among you, let him be your servant was the attitude of many I knew but also a quality that escaped many as well I suppose. You see this in all denominations in one way or another. The New Testament as well has plenty of scriptures that demand ministers be held in high esteem "for they watch for your soul" etc, but many just watched out and still do for themselves. It's what people do.
There were arrogant men in all kinds of positions and of all levels of "rank". There were also very humble servant types who actually thought God had called them to be who they were doing what they were doing.
I realize many here filter all ministers through their minister experiences. It is also easy for ministers to filter "members" through their member experiences and some could be doozies.
So again, I never head anything or even thought myself that "ministers had some kind of a double dose of the spirit" That evidently is for those who desperately need to be more than they should be in the world of religion and hear the phrase during an anointing for a cold. Perhaps, in Bob Thiel's case it would have been better if the man anointing him for his malady had asked for a double portion of antihistamine or vitamin C.
I remember our local Elder gave a sermonette back in the day and told a story about how he and his wife who were recently married at the time came to purchase an item that they had seen demonstrated at a fair or exposition. He said this demonstrator had a kitchen gadget that he could make slice and dice, puree and mince, core and peel, chop and tenderize among other specialized functions. The demonstrator efficiently and with speed produced gourmet quality out of everything that was before him with the gadget. The second selling point the demonstrator repeatedly exhorted was that this one tool will replace 5, 7 or 10 tools that you will have to purchase and use and will have to clean after each meal preparation. The Elder said he and his wife were sold to the fact that they had to purchase this tool even though it cost quite a bit of money.
When they got the gadget home to use it, they couldn't get it to work. They spent three days trying to get some kind of functionality out of it but it wouldn't function nor could they get it to do anything the demonstrator had done. He said they threw it in the garbage.
While many parallels could be drawn from this example for those of us who experienced the WCG or some of the splinters, there remains an intrinsic dynamic for many who persevere on in or out of the COGs. Was the COG experience just an accumulation of people who bought into the sales pitch of one man with one way and one salvation?
Was the Apostle Paul correct in his belief of the one body of Christ, fitly cemented together believing and speaking the same thing? Of course he is. It is a subject that is easy to understand, believe and embrace. Well, it is easy until a person steps back and can deduce from Paul's other writings that if grievous wolves, evil men and seducers, men with a false gospel, and men who will turn truth into a lie were to follow him after his death in the 1st century, what by chance would we have by the 20th and 21st century?
The truth of the one body of Christ fitly framed together as the ideal was lost to reality a long time ago. The traffickers have done their damage for a long time. The individuals who have been moved by a calling or wowed with a miracle or touched by brotherly love in or out of the COGs are learning whether they know it or not. And when the time comes when the very elect could possibly be deceived, the reality of believing a man with the ultimate lie will become apparent. Hopefully they will all see through it and him for what he is and proverbially throw it into the garbage.
A few of my personal ministerial acquaintances died of diseases brought on I am sure by the brokenness, depression and shattered beliefs brought on by both the Armstrongs and Tkaches. A few took their own lives in despair. WCG left many a good man shaking his head in disbelief at the stupidity and arrogance of the leadership and at just how out of touch they were with the sincere and faithful members of the church. The stupidity of the Armstrongs and the Tkaches broke good men and women in ministry leaving them to sink or swim on their own. It was no fun being caught between the devil and the deep blue sea which was the administration that lied about the rumors the members brought to me and wanted me to repeat back to the members to assure them they were mistaken. They weren't and it was very easy in the last years of ministry, for me at least, to end up being the fool who simply could not trust anyone over me to give a straight answer yet expected me to support them to the member. I happened to like the members of my congregations much more than the administrators so it got rather stinky.
I never signed up for what ended up being my own personal experience with WCG. I mishandled the stress the ministry put me under or rather the every 5 year scandal of one sort or another in WCG put me under. In growing up Presbyterian, no such nonsense ever was a part of my community church experience. It was a wonderful place to grow up and was what I thought all churches were and that I was supposed to be a pastor and study theology for the good and encouragement of people so inclined. I came to it at exactly the wrong moment in history and had I been just a bit older or even younger at the time, may have missed the whole sorry mess never having heard to WCG and going on to that which was of more interest to me in life. I am sure lots of WCG ministers who have disappeared and from whom no one hears or even knows much about anymore would feel the same of their experience.
I believe the "changes" literally killed my brother in law. His son said that his dad died of a broken heart and not just the dis-ease that took his life too soon.
So perhaps one might be better to use the phrase "some ministers" just as I try to talk of "Some members" being this or that. But that is not who everyone was, minister or member.
And PS I know Van Robison through our occasional talks and correspondence as well through his personal writings on Biblical topics and observations he sends me. I know his experiences in the Church and the grievous losses he has suffered in life. He has done his homework. People who don't support the literal view of the Bible or take it at face value "in faith" are not well received for the most part in our culture. But you live long enough and have enough experiences with how the Bible promises one outcome and delivers another and you learn to think for yourself and are not so easily swayed by those who deliver their pious convictions with marginal, yet emotional, information.
The Biblical apologetics of "the wisdom of man is foolishness with God", "My ways are not your ways" and "you are just using human reasoning" as if there is any other kind, don't impress or keep in line those who, through life experience, have come to see the Bible as not delivering as advertised. The topics in which it does not are many and faith destroying in their failure to be so in real life.
It is not anyone's fault, who starts out sincerely so with regards to scripture and all things God, nor should they be scolded or blamed for losing faith in faith. They don't fall away. They aren't really apostates or "twice dead". They simply cannot accept the Sunday School version, which most people cling to, over the historical realities and actual origins of the Bible. They cannot say something scriptural works when it does not. They cannot make it mean what it never meant nor take what was never meant to be taken as literally true as a factual statement of history contrary to the evidence. It's ok to believe that if one can't really show it, they can't really know it.
Anyway, nice to hear from you Van.
What About the Truth noted: "Was the Apostle Paul correct in his belief of the one body of Christ, fitly cemented together believing and speaking the same thing? Of course he is. It is a subject that is easy to understand, believe and embrace"
We have to remember that the first century church did not view time as going on and on much longer without the return of Jesus. All their behaviors and the admonitions of the Apostles were to this end. Having all things common was a short term practice because time was short. Yet it wasn't really. Paul's one body fitly joined together did not anticipate having to hold together in such a way for the next 2000 years plus. The longer time goes on and the more people one attracts from all walks of life, the less fitly framed anything is going to be. Division over 2000 years would be and should be expected and the rise and fall of personalities believing they have the truth and others did not would be common.
Each would call the other wolves and false prophets and it would only get worse.
Fitly framed together and all speaking the same thing is a function of a "little flock" expecting big events soon to deliver them from the world. None of the NT Apostles ever hinted at being mistaken but died just knowing they had kept the faith, whatever that meant to them. They certainly never apologized, that we know for the lives they altered with their "soon" and "shortly". And so it still is to this day.
Once rich folk came into the Christian church, "all things common" went down the toilet as they were educated and wealthy enough not to want to participate in such practices and powerful enough not to have to. They church wanted to hold on to them so they were accommodated nicely I am sure and splits, splinters and slivers were going to be the history of Christianity from then on.
mentally ill person said:
"HWA no more spoke for Jesus Christ than the fake "apostle" Paul did"
Sorry, I'll stick with the NT and Paul over strange people on the internet.
how many whackjobs did Herbie create?
Tonto was spot on Dennis whether you knew it or not! You "were" special, not any more!
"We have to remember that the first century church did not view time as going on and on much longer without the return of Jesus."
Dennis, quit acting like you know what was being taught in the early church from 70ad to 99ad. Maybe the church of the first two or three decades believed Christ's return was soon, they most likely learned the truth as the wrinkles emerged. Layoff the "minister" know it all attitude!
Dennis Diehl said:
People who don't support the literal view of the Bible or take it at face value "in faith" are not well received for the most part in our culture. But you live long enough and have enough experiences with how the Bible promises one outcome and delivers another and you learn to think for yourself and are not so easily swayed by those who deliver their pious convictions with marginal, yet emotional, information.
The Biblical apologetics of "the wisdom of man is foolishness with God", "My ways are not your ways" and "you are just using human reasoning" as if there is any other kind, don't impress or keep in line those who, through life experience, have come to see the Bible as not delivering as advertised. The topics in which it does not are many and faith destroying in their failure to be so in real life.
It is not anyone's fault, who starts out sincerely so with regards to scripture and all things God, nor should they be scolded or blamed for losing faith in faith. They don't fall away. They aren't really apostates or "twice dead". They simply cannot accept the Sunday School version, which most people cling to, over the historical realities and actual origins of the Bible. They cannot say something scriptural works when it does not. They cannot make it mean what it never meant nor take what was never meant to be taken as literally true as a factual statement of history contrary to the evidence. It's ok to believe that if one can't really show it, they can't really know it.
I would say I wish I would have known this a long time ago, but then again, I wouldn't know what I know now and I wouldn't have experienced what I have experience in the COG path of life.
Being a bible literalist in December of 1994, it was easy to just walk away from it all and say there is nothing true if men can come along and take a defined belief and turn it all upside down.
It is easy to look back and blame others for what happened in the 90's, but ultimately it was I, it was we who were young, naive, inexperienced and too trusting to see what is ultimately true.
Part #2
I just recently read a book written by a Christian believer trying to discover Jesus of Nazareth. The author stated in one paragraph of his book that it was absolutely preposterous that an uneducated 12 year Aramaic speaking child from the peasant village of Nazareth could be debating scholars and Rabbis in the Hebrew language on the finer points of the law. According to him, with all of the historical evidence that there is, it is impossible for people who can't read or write to function on or above a level of others who are highly educated.
A myopic view of what is not possible or egregious error defining what is true on a grand scale or not is one way to train the mind of no other possibilities.
There has been one miracle that many have experienced in the COGs probably the most of, that I know of. That is where one car, truck or semi that is ready to forcibly hit the vehicle that another person is driving or riding in, but then doesn't and goes through and reappears out the other side. I heard one Christian physicist declare that Jesus Christ after his resurrection when he appeared to the disciples by going through the wall of their house had to inhabit and function within 9 dimensions to be able to do that. So if a car, truck or semi that would be 3 dimensions can, moving at high speed, disappear for a moment and pass through another 3 dimensional vehicle moving at speed, thus for a second encompassing 9 dimensions and the whole scenario being orchestrated by a remote entity dwelling in 10+ dimensions would be considered what?
So now, could a 12 year old uneducated boy with the actual mind of God or the remote entity dwelling in 10+ dimensions, out debate highly educated men in a language he never learned? A possibility perhaps.
The non-believer and maybe Mr. Robison himself would say; if an entity capable of transcending so many dimensions can completely alter time and physical properties in a split second, how come he is only known by such an error ridden piece of literature?
That is the conundrum answered by the fact that not only do people know this entity from a book of errors, they know him even functioning in error laden organizations of men. What is preposterous from one perspective is reality from another perspective.
Jesus Christ declared in Matthew 11:12 that from the days of John The Baptist until now, the kingdom of God suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. It might equally be said; the truth of the bible and that of God himself suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. That at least from the perspective of some.
P.S. Welcome back Mr Diehl, you were missed!
There is no evidence that the common doctrine was taught by the apostles. In Acts, property rights were affirmed when the married couple were confronted for lying to God ("wasn't your money yours to do with as you please.") Even in Christ's time, one in three citizens of Rome received handouts from the government. So the common doctrine was absorbed from secular society. Even in the parable of the talents, someone complained when a extra talent was given to someone who already had many talents rather than given to someone with a few. That is, egalitarianism is the norm in human history, and considered virtuous. But the nobleman in the parable of the talents did not think so.
PS, where's the egalitarianism in the parable of the talents? In both what people are given, and in what people achieve.
Someone said: "Dennis, quit acting like you know what was being taught in the early church from 70ad to 99ad. "
I'm wondering if you know the generally accepted dates the Gospels, Epistles and Letters of the New Testament were written? If one can read I suspect they can see what the early church taught about the immediacy of the Second Coming, church beliefs, expectations, hierarchy and rules. I can't believe you said that. lol Lay off the "member" know nothing evidently? :)
If one is a "bible literalist" one could easily miss the fact that Jesus lived next to the "Los Angeles of its time." Given the fact that his father was a "builder/architect" and sons did work in the business it could very well be that Jesus had lived for long streaks in Sepphoris (major Roman trading and political center), I would not assume that Jesus was illiterate or uneducated.
Added to the major trading Caravans through Sepphoris bringing trade and ideas from the East, Arabia, Persia, China, Palmyra that his uncle seemed to have been a shipping agent to the British Isles for trading ore one could even assume that Jesus could have been a true globalist and universal mind as compared to the inward focussed priests of the temple with their localized religion.
But hey, the bible never mentions Sepphoris to the literate.
nck
What About the Truth said: "I would say I wish I would have known this a long time ago, but then again, I wouldn't know what I know now and I wouldn't have experienced what I have experience in the COG path of life.
It is easy to look back and blame others for what happened in the 90's, but ultimately it was I, it was we who were young, naive, inexperienced and too trusting to see what is ultimately true."
We would not and could not be here now if we had not been there then. It is just that simple. It is how we learn. We used to say, or I did, that "experience is the best teacher, but the tuition is high" implying that perhaps we should just do as told to avoid pain etc. But in my view now, experience is the ONLY teacher. The rest is all hearsay."
We were young coming into the church. I was naïve but very sincere in my pursuit of "the truth" I had many internal reasons to be and do so. It was also how I thought. WCG fit the bill far better, it seemed at the time, than my Presbyterian background. We are trusting as kids. It takes experiences in seeing it is misplaced to mature us. Recently I relearned just how too trusting and probably still naïve I was on a topic and got burned badly. It won't happen again :) It's always something! lol
WATT said: "The non-believer and maybe Mr. Robison himself would say; if an entity capable of transcending so many dimensions can completely alter time and physical properties in a split second, how come he is only known by such an error ridden piece of literature?"
Evidently the gods only communicate through priests who have literary skills. Also, once they communicate, they drop out of the picture and let the mortals battle it out over meaning and content. They only offer a First Edition with no updates as humans learn more and more. What God challenged Job with, if he was so smart as in "where were you when...?" or "Do you know...?" back in the day, most middle and high school kids can answer quite well today. And God doesn't even update with a "good job guys. I'll have to think some other stuff you don't yet understand but will someday"
Also, it never seems to dawn on them just to show up and cut out the middlemen with all their confusing views. If I was a god I believe I'd speak for myself, show up for a chat and make it obvious what the real nature of reality in such matters is. Especially since if you don't get it exactly right, well...into the Lake of fire you go.
And too...I'm happy to comment as anyone else on all manner of topics. I was thinking of going anonymous just to see how it felt and get to crack off without actually being known, as some do here, which is a nice freedom I suppose, but I suspect I could not pull it off. My way of expression and "style" would be too obvious! lol. Also, part of my own journey into authenticity is to be open come what may. Since I have had the experience, I may as well share it from my own perspective, which is the only one I actually have.
Continued from 2:14 regarding jesus the illiterate....
It is said that Mary was born in Sepphoris according to the mosaics found there.
This provincial capital was a 2 hour walk from Nazareth.
Seventeen times the word "hypocrites" appears in the Gospels, and three times in
the Sermon on the Mount. Where would Jesus, growing up in the small village of Nazareth, have come into contact with “hypocrites,” a Greek word for actors who wore masks, (thus having two faces)? Perhaps five miles away in Sepphoris.
nck
Anonymous said...
Tonto was spot on Dennis whether you knew it or not! You "were" special, not any more!
The evidently I did not know it. I did not feel it. I did not practice or promote it. But your special knowledge into myself is, well, very special :) I guess I won't mind not being special anymore as I never noticed it the first time. So it's all good...
And too Anon. Let's face it. You just don't like me or your experience with ministry. I get that and I didn't like a lot of my peers in ministry either. Didn't care for a number of members either. We'd have to have lunch or chat on the phone for me to see how I felt about you. As with others, you seem to filter and project your experience with church on to others in deciding what you think you understand about them. It happens...
Dennis Diehl said:
Evidently the gods only communicate through priests who have literary skills. Also, once they communicate, they drop out of the picture and let the mortals battle it out over meaning and content. They only offer a First Edition with no updates as humans learn more and more. What God challenged Job with, if he was so smart as in "where were you when...?" or "Do you know...?" back in the day, most middle and high school kids can answer quite well today. And God doesn't even update with a "good job guys. I'll have to think some other stuff you don't yet understand but will someday"
Also, it never seems to dawn on them just to show up and cut out the middlemen with all their confusing views. If I was a god I believe I'd speak for myself, show up for a chat and make it obvious what the real nature of reality in such matters is. Especially since if you don't get it exactly right, well...into the Lake of fire you go.
The second edition did show up as the "zealot" from Nazareth. What did he speak about to the educated humans of the religious realm who had "learned more and more"? He spoke "you have heard" or "have you not read". And in case they didn't consider it or it got lost in their learned advancement, the second edition let them know that I AM is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.
Mr. Robison speaks of getting rid of man made religion. Man made religion is what happened long ago in the presence of God at Mt. Sinai long ago with the casting of the golden calf. Man made religion is what happened in the garden of Eden when men decided their was profit operating in a realm of good and evil. Man made religion is what was happening when the second edition showed up and traditions of men were operating and held above the law of God.
If the world awaits the third edition, what will they expect the words will be from him? Most likely, everyone is expecting affirmation that their interpretation was right all along even if they are one of 3800 denominations who call themselves Christians.
There is no need for the third edition to "check in" with us for he would just proclaim and affirm what the second edition stated who affirmed what the first edition stated.
In an age when we know the bible suffered liturgical violence, there is still a congruence that survived and isn't conflicting, that tells the true story. And that is the story of life between God and man. Death and the Lake of Fire are seen in the context of the congruency as a possibility. That won't happen to a person who decides to sing only one hymn and skip the sermonette and leave early from the sermon because it has nothing of substance.
Precision of doctrine is wading through the interpretative mess that is out there and seeing and living the path of salvation. Man made religion from the one extreme to the other is a dead religion.
Nck said:
Seventeen times the word "hypocrites" appears in the Gospels, and three times in
the Sermon on the Mount. Where would Jesus, growing up in the small village of Nazareth, have come into contact with “hypocrites,” a Greek word for actors who wore masks, (thus having two faces)? Perhaps five miles away in Sepphoris.
Sepphoris was a predominately Jewish city of "elite" Jews reveling in Hellenistic splendor. You think maybe the "illiterate" peasant carpenter Jesus didn't see in action the Greek word hypokritai from the resident Jews?
NCK noted: " Where would Jesus, growing up in the small village of Nazareth, have come into contact with “hypocrites,” a Greek word for actors who wore masks, (thus having two faces)? Perhaps five miles away in Sepphoris."
I have walked the streets of Sepphoris when on an archaeological dig at Megiddo. It is strange it garners no mention in the NT or the Gospels. It was a thriving city, as you say, just five miles from Nazareth. Why no mention? Who knows. The anonymous Gospel writers, not those whose names were affixed later, perhaps had not heard of it either. "Matthew" in 2:23 notes "“And [Jesus] came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.” The problem here is there is no OT passage stating such a thing nor is it any proof of Messiahship. Methinks putting Jesus in Nazareth was the authors way of getting the family to live there so when he told his Birth story he could find other fulfillment scriptures that showed he had to go to Jerusalem/Bethlehem to be born etc. Both Luke's and Matthew's birth tales are made up either from OT scriptures or simply made up. Neither agrees with the other and both show signs of having been inserted later in the text as snipping them out does not disturb the original thoughts of the texts. Fun story.
At any rate, Sepphoris was really something and it made no sense when there to think It was never once mentioned in the NT.
The streets of Sepphoris are grooved very deep with chariot and wagon ruts right into the stone. It was a very busy place. Also, the Synagogue there in Sepphoris had a beautiful mosaic we studied of the 12 signs of the Zodiac in the floor. Most would not suspect that was important to them but evidently was. It was amazingly well done.
WATT
Theorize as you please. Both Dennis and I share a common "intrigue" by Sepphoris after our respective visits there. I was in Nazareth around Xmas with hundreds of noisy Christian Arab children visiting the shrines to make things even more "complicated" for the pre conditioned mind.
As Dennis said the remains of the synagogue are impressive.
I believe I am still on topic talking about Jesus here. I was just distracted by your book stating Jesus was illiterate. I have no reason to believe he was. Main trade routes, lots of theater, kroatian centurios, Persian and perhaps some Buddhist prisoners, perhaps a celtic girl snatched by a Roman unit to do the laundry and of course the hellenistic sophisticated politicians in the bathhouse whose talk about a global empire of pax, order and law, impressed the young Jewish lad making him a worthy questioneer of any temple priest who had mostly dwelt amongst his own filter bubble of information.
Nck
Nck said: I believe I am still on topic talking about Jesus here. I was just distracted by your book stating Jesus was illiterate. I have no reason to believe he was. Main trade routes, lots of theater, kroatian centurios, Persian and perhaps some Buddhist prisoners, perhaps a celtic girl snatched by a Roman unit to do the laundry and of course the hellenistic sophisticated politicians in the bathhouse whose talk about a global empire of pax, order and law, impressed the young Jewish lad making him a worthy questioneer of any temple priest who had mostly dwelt amongst his own filter bubble of information.
The theorizing was an amen to your perspective of Sepphoris being an influence to the Nazareth peasants that historians like to ignore when trying to influence the negative narrative that the Jesus of 12 years was doing the impossible.
That a city such as Sepphoris in all its splendor could educate and influence by fiat the uneducated, how much more would that which is omnipotent empower a young lad to do what was unattainable?
You are right on topic nck, historians want to interpret badly that which they want to discredit. The reality of Sepphoris is an inconvenient blip for some historians to discredit the man (Jesus)from the beginning. If there is no credibility from the beginning and there is no credibility at the end, then the case can be made that Christianity always was just a man made religion.
In the meantime, there is movement of belief within the populace of Israel that Donald Trump is the Messiah. The eyes of religious thought focused on a man for a saviour. What will historians write about this?
WATT
Yes.
If we stick to:
a) The bible narrative. Children are in fact capable of asking extremely good questions
b) City culture theory: Sepphoris might hold a clue. Also the apostle Paul "greek unto the greek, jew unto the jew" who never met the man jesus alludes to the fact that he felt "cultural kinship and closeness" with this person whom he never met. Paul does indeed cite greek plays.
c) BI theory (for fun sake). 10 year old jesus could have sailed with his uncle joseph of A. to get some tin in the western isles. Then asking questions to the priests who these bearded rough creatures were in the great sceme of things and creation. Then a priest might have thought that the scope of this lad went beyond a local focus and theorized that these people might be the lost tribes.
I am aware of this "Trump annointment" thing. Usually speculations like this find meaning in catastrophic events such as "the Cold War" in our time.
nck
"In the meantime, there is movement of belief within the populace of Israel that Donald Trump is the Messiah."
King of the North maybe, but Messiah definitely not! Though I did vote for him, and will again. Will most likely vote for Eric or Ivanka in 2024 also.
You first heard it here. Got to have at least six Trump terms in order to get to the seventh Trump. 😉
10:02
No mention of the chabad lubavitchers who anointed Trump as the savior from the globalist in a scheme to implement the new world order?
Nck
Nck, so what? If we're to believe the bible a new world order is coming no matter what. The elite who run the world will get their way. We can't stop it but perhaps we can slow it down a bit.
I'd much prefer a capitalist new world order than a socialist one any day, though both are evil!
Hello 8:46
I am just responding to the person mentioning a specific theory concerning a prominent world leader. I am not propagating nor saying it might be true.
The relevance for responding is that it might be so that there are no supernatural beings, at all and that the specific blue print that is being used to implement a world order can be spelled out from the pages of a book we call the Bible INCLUDING the EXACT time phrame although the exact timing has been postponed for technological reasons over the course of 2000 years.
ONLY know the Exact technology is present to implement the "world tomorrow" through Cargill Monsanto, Chinese face recognition, American fascism along with energy transition and digital money etc.
It was Shakespeare who probably was a Courtier all his life who revealed to the world that most men in power are playing roles and all the world is a play and a play needs a script.
And perhaps a postman like the God mercury who was the perfect fit for hwa representing the 5th economy of the world (the state of California) (trade/commerce) and the "gods" as their mouthpiece for what was to come.
So far hwa has been 100 percent accurate in the world unfolding toward the dictatorship he called the wonderful world tomorrow in lovely doublespeak.
Nck
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