If there was a "Me Too" movement in the current batch of Churches of God there would be a house cleaning like no other. It would make the 1995 Worldwide Church of God implosion meaningless and trite. There have always been sexual harassment issues in the church due to its stance on the place of women in the hierarchy of the church, marriages, and the family.
Pre-implosion, Pasadena, Big Sandy, Bricket Wood, and international church office sites had serious issues with this problem, yet it was always swept under the rug so that the church would never be publicly embarrassed. The church has had a long legacy of sexual abuse, harassment, pedophilia, and other issues by leaders and members. Few were ever dealt with but some did make the headlines and brought damning publicity against the church.
The church has always had a sick mentality to let things go quietly so as to not damage church credibility or to bring trouble to the church. God forbid if the institution were to be damaged! Who cares about the people, but the institution MUST be protected at all costs.
At all boils down to fear. Fear of COG leadership, of counteracting church norms, of bringing embarrassment to the church, and of losing one's salvation keeps members blind, deaf, and dumb. This has always been the ideal COG member that the leadership looks to keep under control.
There is plenty of proof, for starters how about one of the female victims at lcg hq who told me face to face, while crying, that she was sexually assaulted while working at lcg hq? How about several LU female students who told numerous people that I know well, that they were sexually harassed by the same son of RCM? How about that same RCM son who walked around lcg hq half drunk and smelling like booze? Believe me, there's more, but I think you get the point. There is also my own witness, since I worked there for many years and heard and saw plenty of filthy and evil behavior. One of the women sexually assaulted worked under me, I was her supervisor. Why didn't anybody do anything? Because people working at lcg hq feared RCM and didn't want to be fired and disfellowshipped. The woman who told me personally about being sexually assaulted there, begged me not to do anything about it, she and her husband were both employed at lcg hq for many years, and didn't want to make waves and deal with the situation. There are plenty of people at lcg hq who know exactly what I'm talking about here. A prominent lcg minister there told me that it was best to "let these things go, and move on, to save the church from trouble and hurting the work of God." So basically the usual filth that happens in corporate America, happens at lcg hq just the same. I did my best while working there to protect the women working under me, as their supervisor, from the sexual assaults and harassment. Believe me, I know of plenty more skeletons in lcg's closet, and so do many others. I spent time in many private meetings over the years, with RCM and other top leaders there, and witnessed things that most people in lcg wouldn't believe, or want to believe, as the truth often hurts. There are so many sins and evil behaviours at lcg hq that have been covered up, that it's sickening. I also know that these type of things are not only happening at lcg hq, but also happening at other COG headquarters' as well... been told about it personally by employees and former employees. There's nothing new under the sun!
90 comments:
Sexual assault in the Bible or the COG largely goes ignored and unpunished. When men do try to stand up for their sisters as with Jacob's sons or with David's son they get in trouble for trying to avenge their sisters. Lot offered his daughters without a second thought to spare God's angels. The lives of women are treated as a trite thing for the vast history of humanity and that is to our shame.
Any God who allows his daughters and sons to be sexually assaulted really isn't worth much at all.
Same goes for any church which condones this behavior through inaction.
One thing about it if they ever get sued that would be one way to get the word of lcg out to the world...
Just saying since I'm sure cnn would show something about it but since I'm a nobody that it took 3 years for him to figure out I could still access my cogl.org and see member this spring when I "thought" I quit in 2017.
I thought to look while I still had covidback in april so I just felt sicker instead of sick :D
My big question is how serious the incidents you are talking about. Insane lesbian feminists cry that a man just talking to her is harrassment. Your picture shows a hand on shoulder. You think such things are evil too, so I don't trust your judgment.
It is sick if the Church falls for this.
I'm calling for an end to feminism and gender equality by the end of the decade.
Then from a NORMAL attitude you can reconsider what natural friendliness might be.
Well said, and I agree!
lesbian feminists? hilarious! are you saying that is who is causing the sexual harassment problems in LCG? This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. some of you will go to no ends to defend the evil leaders who do this stuff.
He grabbed her butt, both cheeks, with both of his hands and squeezed, according to the woman who told me about her incident. It was 100% sexual assault by any definition. The lcg leadership was told, and they didn't want to do a damn thing! Eventually, nearly a year later, and after he had harrased other women in charlotte too, he was finally sent very quietly out of NC. The lcg ministry who knew these things and basically did nothing to really stop it, are all guilty and have no right to be practicing ministers... and certainly have no right to be criticizing the church members or anyone else for that matter. The Meredith son who did these filthy acts to innocent women, should've faced criminal and civil charges!
The stance and body language of the man over the woman in the picture appears to me to communicate dominance or intimidation rather than "friendliness," and casually placing your hands on a woman who isn't your wife in a professional work environment is inappropriate and shouldn't have to be tolerated by any self respecting woman, or for that matter her husband, if she is married.
The written information presented in the post however, seems to imply behavior that went well beyond a casual hand on a shoulder, and if such allegations are true, the victims in this situation aren't doing God or their fellow Christians any favors in keeping quiet about what happened to themselves or their coworkers. At this point in time Rod Meredith is no longer on the scene, and it is up to his successors to get to the bottom of this situation and clean house, and even more so if similar behavior continues to be an issue.
Sexual misconduct and scandals are rampant in religious organizations and our own history has had it's share of them. The behavior of GTA which was apparently excused and covered up for years being just one glaring example. Those who cover these things out of some misguided idea that they are protecting or promoting some sort of greater good, are really enabling predators to continue preying on and victimizing others, which in this case would include those you consider sisters in Christ. Any man who engages in such behavior or covers for others who do has demonstrated his unfitness to lead or guide others in any situation, much less the work of God. If men want others to respect them and look to them as leaders, they should start by respecting and protecting those who have been placed within their own sphere of influence, and that includes females in the work environment.
I sympathize with the victims of such violations, and have personally known women in the church who were victims of sexual assault or other abuse and were reluctant to report what happened to them, and in many cases even if they told the ministry, nothing was done about the situation with absolutely no repercussions for the offender. As far as I am concerned these situations go beyond any sort of trivial matter, and should be reported to the proper outside authorities. The fact that someone might warm a seat in church once a week or be related to some lofty authority figure doesn't mean they are a Christian. They are defined by their fruits and actions, not by who they know, which also goes to show that permitting or not permitting "voting" in your church organization is not necessarily what determines the presence of political posturing, corruption, nepotism or cronyism within that organization. Moral and Godly behavior or lack thereof does.
In the end we must appeal to God for justice.
"For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil." Ecclesiastes 12:14
Concerned Sister
Same thing going on in all the COG’s.. Beginning of this year a European RCG member (friend of mine, so I know this first hand) was kicked out of ‘the church’ because she went to the police after being assaulted by her minister. Her minister told her that nobody would believe her anyway and that she had some ‘personal issues and demons’ to work on.
Wasn’t the first time he did that. And it won’t be the last time ‘cause HQ is backing that creepy guy up!
Unwanted touching by a man is harassment. I up tup with this stuff when I worked in Charlotte. Finally had enough of it and left, both headquarters and the church. It was disgusting the things that went on there and the Meredith clan covered it up.
Concerned Sister:
I agree with what you wrote and also that we must appeal to God for justice. I also understand that God expects us to stand up for what's right and care for our fellow members. Any time that boundary is seriously crossed the police should be called in. Putting a couple ministers in jail may be what LCG needs to straighten them out.
I think lcg is past being straighten out.
If LCG is past being straightened out then put them in prison. That will certainly fix the problem. That is where some of them need to be right now.
I know a couple ministers in other COG groups that should be in jail too.
Of course you do concerned sister.
Are not the majority of females employed by the church married women? Usually married to men who are part of the Ministry?
When is the timeframe of this? Are we talking 5 years, or 20 years ago?
Being legally blind I cannot see the pic but I know I for one do not wish to hear a pic that would be more accurate.
A lot of sincere little sheeple go to the so-called COGs for the truth of God. They run into many insincere people who go to the so-called COGs for other reasons, for very bad reasons.
There is something wrong with this. Becoming incensed at such harassment is rational and appropriate. I have no issues with that reaction. But the account contained in this post is a one-sided testimony with no validation or certain provenance offered. With the politicized environment surrounding the leadership of splinter groups, how are we supposed to believe this? How do we know that this is not disinformation from some competing group and we are being played. My guess is that this hearsay will never emerge anywhere except on this blog.
Uncertainty about testimony is especially a problem when what constitutes sexual harassment can be so subjective. Some cases are blatant; others are subtle to the point of being opinion. The idea of "we believe you" with no inquest into complicity that is associated with the "Me Too" movement is an abandonment of justice. Thankfully, this is not the way the courts operate.
I prefer to reserve judgement. Arm-waving in cases like this can make one feel pleasantly self-righteous but it doesn't really have any merit.
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Seems to be a problem going way back. God is not fooled, and is aware. Note the penalty for such actions...
1Samuel2:22 Eli was now very old, but he was aware of what was going on around him. He knew, for instance, that his sons were seducing the young women who assisted at the entrance of the Tabernacle.
23-25 “I have been hearing terrible reports from the Lord’s people about what you are doing,” Eli told his sons. “It is an awful thing to make the Lord’s people sin. Ordinary sin receives heavy punishment, but how much more this sin of yours that has been committed against the Lord!” But they wouldn’t listen to their father, for the Lord was already planning to kill them.
Seems to be a problem going way back. God is not fooled, and is aware. Note the penalty for such actions...
1Samuel2:22 Eli was now very old, but he was aware of what was going on around him. He knew, for instance, that his sons were seducing the young women who assisted at the entrance of the Tabernacle.
23-25 “I have been hearing terrible reports from the Lord’s people about what you are doing,” Eli told his sons. “It is an awful thing to make the Lord’s people sin. Ordinary sin receives heavy punishment, but how much more this sin of yours that has been committed against the Lord!” But they wouldn’t listen to their father, for the Lord was already planning to kill them.
NEO, whatever happened, we know Weston and Monson approved of it, as they were on Meredith's Council of Elders at the time.
Hmmm.. See no evil, hear no evil, so there is no evil NEO?
Harassment and assault are real in all the COG’s. What makes it difficult to get it to the surface, is that the perpetrators are being protected and the victims are kicked out or silenced by the ones in charge.
Common cult practice.
Stephen:
It is a picture of a woman at her desk with a man standing behind her with his hand on her shoulder. She has her head turned to look at the hand in apprehension.
Yeah I know about someone in the Television department in LCG HQ that was having an affair with married woman that worked out there at HQ too. It broke his marriage up....I hope his poor ex wife carved that bastard up in court.
So TBII, if a lady was sexually assaulted, why wasn't it reported to the police? That's a criminal offense that's above the church. A true Godly person would have reported it! Big deal if it would have hurt the church. The church is not above the law. And if there was sexual harassment going on, you should have been a man and told RCM. Big deal if you get kicked out and fired. If you trusted your god, he would have provided you with another job, probably one even better. If you cowards would stand up and reveal the sins of these assholes, then this stuff would stop. Instead, you empower them by your cowardness and fear of a man. You are no better than them.
Chill everyone NEO is playing the devils advocate.
Although the does exist a rule of ministerial thought, that if the peasants (sorry members) express concern about anything, then they are guilty of it themselves. Which makes a mockery of basic Law and order and is quite absurd. But it does exist.
The Me Too movement is a hoax and a lie and a fraud and only retarded people like Hideous Hillary believe it.
I will add that there are some pretty paranoid women in the church who think there are rapists all over the place that the ministry is protecting. I have never seen a shred of evidence to support any of their claims. It's all based on assumptions and jumping to wild conclusions and the Feminist ideology that men are all monsters who need to be socially and politically castrated to be kept in line.
Funny how we are constantly told of all the bad things SOME men do to make all men look bad, and the crap that women do is nearly always overlooked. That is sexism, coming from the liars who claim they are against sexism.
Anonymous (8:58) wrote: "Hmmm.. See no evil, hear no evil, so there is no evil NEO?"
This can be judged in the court of public opinion with just emotion as the deciding factor but this kind of judgement must be recognized as just opinion. But it cannot be judged in court of law or the court of Reason without evidence. Without evidence, how does one discern between fiction and non-fiction? Like anyone else, I can be persuaded by vetted evidence.
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11:28 AM, the worst of the Television scandal is that one of the two in the affair was fired for sinful conduct, while the other was protected as "too valuable to lose." Instead of counseling them both with the goal of saving them and their marriages, HQ politics demonized one of the adulterers and whitewashed the other.
This stuff happened years ago, and most people in charlotte knew about it, to one degree or another.... I did too. I guess looking back, we trusted the ministry to quickly solve the problem, but they didn't. So I guess in all honesty we were all partly responsible and didn't protect our sisters the way we should have. I no longer attend with Living Church but still have close relations with some there, mainly in charlotte. Unfortunately these accounts are true, but hopefully everyone involved has made their peace with it and moved on. I do believe though that the Meredith clan in charlotte was not loving or honest with the church, based on what I saw and heard. That church is still just a big mess from what I'm still hearing.
I knew one of the female victims of this stuff, she only told a few people what happened and pleaded with them not to tell anybody else, as she wanted to handle it herself in her own time. So the few she told respected her request. You can't blame those people she told for respecting the victim's plea. It was her duty to report the abuse to authorities! Only she, and the other victims, could file any charges. The lcg ministry was told, but not given her name, and they knew it was true based on other reports. Blame the ministry, they could have stopped it fast but did not.
What you are mentioning has nothing to do with this post or subject. The post is describing criminal behavior that was on going and never dealt with but merely covered up... totally different matter. As for any affairs, if the two individuals stopped and repented, then it's none of our business and even sinful to dwell on someone else's confessed and repented sins. Will you dwell on King David's horrendous sins too? He not only committed adultery, but was personally responsible for TWO person's deaths--Uriah and the baby. He also was a liar and hid the matter, and did not confess or truly begin to repent until a prophet of God called him on it to his face. How long would he have continued hiding his sins otherwise? How about Lot, called a righteous man in the bible more than once, like King David. Lot willingly offered up his daughters to be gang raped or worse to a perverted mob. Then Lot allows himself to get drunk, and has incestuous sex with his two daughters--getting them pregnant. He knew what he was doing, cause he certainly was aware enough to "perform" not just once, but twice. Here are just two quick examples of men who committed horrendous sins, yet are called righteous and are bible heros. How many times have you sinned since baptism? Sin is sin, examine yourself instead of dwelling on someone else's repented sin, which God says that He forgets and puts away--have you?
Okay NEO, I agree that at this point we have been presented with an allegation of bad behavior by an anonymous poster, and this would not convict anyone in a court of law and shouldn't. But, what evidence would you find acceptable or believable? The woman's testimony? And if that isn't enough, the person's testimony who corroborates the woman's story? The problem with cases like this, is that there might not be physical evidence of the crime committed. How are we to "prove" this woman is telling the truth when she testifies that this man grabbed her butt, and squeezed it, or perhaps made distasteful or sexually explicit comments to her, if it occurred out of the sight or earshot of others, perhaps if he caught her alone in a hallway or break room? Unless full blown rape occurs or something that might leave a trail of physical evidence, and that evidence is gathered and catalogued before it is washed away, this becomes a he said she said situation, and much of the time the male is given the benefit of the doubt and there are no consequences for his actions. This scenario is what leads many women to conclude that telling someone, even authorities, isn't going to do any good anyway, and only causes themselves more stress and heartache.
If a man's behavior is so obnoxious it becomes obvious to others around him, but those others are willing to cover for him in the name of defending their own pay checks, positions of supposed power, or just because they belong to the good ole boys club, they become accessories to his sin, and aids to the promotion of abuse and injustice to those who have been preyed upon.
I do not believe that every man in the church or for that matter every minister is culpable in this sort of behavior, but I have known of it happening often enough to see that the deck is stacked in most cases against the female in the situation. If a man abuses or mistreats his wife the reasoning often goes that "she must not be submissive enough" or that she somehow caused or brought the situation on herself. If a child or teenage girl complains about an old man leering at her or touching her inappropriately, she must have misunderstood his intentions, or maybe she's making it up. You get the point.
And, as we have seen in some of the comments above, communication from other women who have witnessed this sort of thing happening through the years is often met with snide comments or charges of being feminist, hating men or trying to make them look bad, or they are dismissed and denied, because after all, the only "evidence" I have is my own testimony or that of other women or girls who have confided in me over the years about their own situations.
Concerned Sister
Regarding the affair, they both worked in the TV department for Living. I know them both, but I know the man much better and still communicate with him occasionally. Regardless of what happened, he is a just and decent man. He actually was never fired, he had resigned several weeks before anybody knew anything and had already stopped attending services. He ended up getting marked later on, which had nothing to do with the affair, it had to do with church doctrine changes. There was also a letter or email supposedly sent to Rod Meredith that seemed threatening and appeared to be signed by this man, but the truth is that he never sent any such letter or email. Someone in Charlotte wrote it and put his name on it to get him marked by Meredith. I actually found out who wrote the bogus letter, and it was not this man they blamed. The man confessed the affair to everyone who needed to know, including the ministry, and that is the first time they knew of the affair. He had already long resigned and then been marked, because of the bogus letter which was not written by him, but someone else... and I know who did it. This man genuinely repented and followed all biblical instructions afterwards, yet lcg hq didn't want him around and just wanted to demonize him and hide everything, and they did not obey nor follow biblical instructions regarding the reconciliation of the matter. I was there and saw it all happen. But nowadays, this man is blessed beyond measure, and has a beautiful family. I just spoke with him again recently. He made a mistake, confessed and genuinely repented... and has been living a godly life ever since. He is a good brother in Christ to me, and always has been.
Not trying to give the perp an excuse for his illegal behavior - but it’s not surprising that a son of Spanky would engage in abnormal sexuality, inhuman domination of the weak, self-indulgence, and sadistic cruelty. Spanky new how to train up a child in those ways.
James 4:17
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
Winnail and other ministers know they should take appropriate actions to expose and remove this evil.
However, they chose to be complicit reprobates instead of doing the right.
This a choice they make each day.
Agreed. Although difficult it's the responsibility of the victims to stand up for themselves and report abuse... especially sexual abuse.
NEO said:
There is something wrong with this. Becoming incensed at such harassment is rational and appropriate. I have no issues with that reaction. But the account contained in this post is a one-sided testimony with no validation or certain provenance offered. With the politicized environment surrounding the leadership of splinter groups, how are we supposed to believe this? How do we know that this is not disinformation from some competing group and we are being played. My guess is that this hearsay will never emerge anywhere except on this blog.
Uncertainty about testimony is especially a problem when what constitutes sexual harassment can be so subjective. Some cases are blatant; others are subtle to the point of being opinion. The idea of "we believe you" with no inquest into complicity that is associated with the "Me Too" movement is an abandonment of justice. Thankfully, this is not the way the courts operate.
I prefer to reserve judgement. Arm-waving in cases like this can make one feel pleasantly self-righteous but it doesn't really have any merit.
—————
Well said. I completely agree!đź‘Ź
There is judgment coming to all who abuse others, who have not ceased nor repented. Their judgment will be rendered by God, not man. They haven't gotten away with anything, they just think they have. I've lived a long life and seen a lot.... and I know the accounts described in this post happened and are accurate, as I was there and know these individuals. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but truth is still truth. The victims in Charlotte are many, that's just another reason Dibar Apartian said before his death, that LCG was no longer a godly church. That is also fact, and he told about Rod Meredith's sins. Someone mentioned an affair that happened, but they don't mention how the individuals repented, unlike the ministry who rarely repents of their sins and even more rarely confesses them. The brethren are abused, chastized, disrespected, manipulated, and lied to regularly by ordained individuals who worship power, money, and themselves far more than God. When leaders spend their time demanding respect and putting church members down, there is a serious problem. When leaders demand blind obedience and unending loyalty to them, rather than focusing on truth and God first, there should be red flags going up in your minds. These ministers didn't protect the brethren during Worldwide's descent into madness, and they still haven't learned to give themselves for the flock today. They are blind leading the blind, and the ditch is straight ahead and very deep. Too often the real leaders among us are rejected and ignored or even demonized, while the false leaders with slick tongues and speaking smooth things are respected and elevated. This is a great travesty in the eyes of God. We have all sinned and fallen short, but the question is, who repented and learned to grow spiritually and become an overcomer? Let us all do so, and help each other do so as well, in genuine love and humility. Look to God for salvation, not to men! We are heading into terribly dark times ahead, and into the refining pot we go... will we emerge as gold or dung?
Thanks for the pic description.
In NC there is no time limit for rape or incest. according the inet I cannot remember when the move from CA to NC happened but anything in at least those categories for which near earth object pointed out would have to have been documented i.e. videoed or audio recorded or reports filed.
I must admit once I saw online that NC had no time limit I went... and there are a lot of religious groups here why??? lol
It's a sad sick world we're stuck in but at least the power grid still working :)
Anonymous December 14, 2020 at 2:39 PM said...
What you are mentioning has nothing to do with this post or subject. The post is describing criminal behavior that was on going and never dealt with but merely covered up... totally different matter. As for any affairs, if the two individuals stopped and repented, then it's none of our business and even sinful to dwell on someone else's confessed and repented sins. Will you dwell on King David's horrendous sins too? He not only committed adultery, but was personally responsible for TWO person's deaths--Uriah and the baby. He also was a liar and hid the matter, and did not confess or truly begin to repent until a prophet of God called him on it to his face. How long would he have continued hiding his sins otherwise? How about Lot, called a righteous man in the bible more than once, like King David. Lot willingly offered up his daughters to be gang raped or worse to a perverted mob. Then Lot allows himself to get drunk, and has incestuous sex with his two daughters--getting them pregnant. He knew what he was doing, cause he certainly was aware enough to "perform" not just once, but twice. Here are just two quick examples of men who committed horrendous sins, yet are called righteous and are bible heros. How many times have you sinned since baptism? Sin is sin, examine yourself instead of dwelling on someone else's repented sin, which God says that He forgets and puts away--have you?
Do you mind clarifying what you mean by it's "even sinful to dwell on someone else's confessed and repented sins?" I hope you're not implying it's supposedly immoral to investigate and/or discuss the immorality of others and to take away lessons from their wrongful behavior?
You even brought up David's own poor conduct in having adulterous sex with Bathsheba leading to her falling pregnant; conspiring to have Uriah, her lawful husband, killed; and covering it all up to support your argument. But, I don't understand its relevance, that is such horrendous behavior, which David repented of, has been recorded in the Bible for posterity. Yet, your argument implies we shouldn't, in your words, "dwell on" such. So, what then, should it along with other accounts unsavory to your sensibilities be expunged from the Bible or the historical record? Should sinful conduct repented of be automatically forgotten and never mentioned again even though its harrowing effects might be extensive and permanent not to mention whether restitution is ever made?
Then you bring up Lot and equated his foolish actions with David's wicked actions. But, just because Lot offered his virgin daughters to a mob of rabid homosexuals doesn't mean he would've gone through with it. Besides looking at the response of the mob only proves they had no interest in women at all and sought to gang rape men—both the messengers and even Lot!—in an act of power to reinforce their dominant status over these outsiders. Then you asserted Lot "knew what he was doing" when he unwittingly had incestuous sex with his surviving daughters who bore him sons. After what he went through in losing his home, his wife, his daughters and sons-in-law to end up living in a cave, it wouldn't be a stretch if he was suffering a form of what is nowadays called PTSD. So any kind of drinking alcohol on his part would more than likely be a type of self-medication, which would explain his amenability to get drunk when his remaining daughters offered it to him. However, to insinuate that he must've been cognizant he was having sex with his daughters because he was able to "perform" on two consecutive nights in a row demonstrates to me that you either don't know the potent effects of alcohol on the human mind since men and women can get blackout drunk and engage in all manner of activity, including sexual activity that cannot be recalled the next day; or you don't know how the male penis works; or both!
The person you're calling a coward and criticizing, is probably one of the very few people at LCG who stood up to RCM and protected other church employees and brethren. He also fought to get them pay raises and defended them more than you'll ever know. How do I know? Because I worked under him for several years in Charlotte and know what happened. You're totally attacking the wrong person! He turned in his resignation 3 times while working there, and wasn't afraid of getting fired. So again, you're barking up the wrong tree! This man was a damn good manager and got more accomplished than you'll ever know. So why don't you turn your anger on someone who actually deserves it instead? There are plenty of high ups at LCG headquarters who rightfully deserve criticism, take your pick.
It can go both ways. The older women can be as lecherous as the men.
If this coward offered up his resignations THREE times, why didn't he follow through and quit? Was the offer of more money too strong to follow through on his convictions and leave? Why enable their bad behavior by returning? Resign, follow through on your word, and just leave. Set an example and break free of the mind-controlling cult and lead people out. Staying in didn't seem to help as more abuse took place.
Concerned Sister:
What you cite is the problem, in principle, with all cases that must be judged - not just matters of men harassing women. What I am advocating is a reaction of moderation and some reserve in judgement based on the tenuous presentation that we have. My guess is that much of what is cited is true from my vantage point in the experiential spectrum. But my view is, after all, a guess. We have in this post a complaint - not a fully developed case - not a sworn affidavit. And a complaint is within the scope of this blog. And we may comment on it. But it is important to retain perspective and not take ourselves too seriously.
The problem in America right now is the loss of any sense of what makes something true. Conspiracy theories are concocted and floated gleefully and the gullible and willfully ignorant consume them voraciously. And in unquestioning minds these soft tales are hardened into faux truths. The precursor to this condition that militates against enlightenment is the renunciation of the scientific method.
I'll stop there. I almost slipped off of my soapbox.
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Anonymous at 5:10 AM said...“It can go both ways. The older women can be as lecherous as the men.”
That is the PLAIN TRUTH.
Both men and women SIN. There are dirty old men and filthy old women in the so-called COGs as well as in the world. Wicked women, generally being physically smaller and weaker than men, often operate by chronic lying.
Good men and women everywhere can be attacked in various ways by the wicked men and women everywhere. That is simply how things are everywhere, both in the so-called COGs and in the world.
The BIG DISILLUSIONMENT comes when people find out that MOST of the leaders and members in the so-called COGs are no better -- no more called or converted -- than the leaders and people in the world.
First of all, my comment was in defense of the persons being accused of having an affair, not about the person who has allegedly committed the acts of sexual abuse. I mentioned King David and Lot's sins as an example of godly men who did commit horrible sins and yet clearly ended up as biblical heros and "righteous" figures in the bible. If you and I or anyone has committed a horrible sin, and then genuinely repents, God's word is very clear on what everyone should do--forgive them and not keep throwing it in their face which can cause a person to stumble spiritually. Would you like for all of your secret or commandment breaking sins to be thrown into your face repeatedly, after you have genuinely stopped that behaviour and genuinely repented? I can guarantee that you wouldn't, and rightfully so! If anyone is holding onto someone else's repented sins, and not accepting their forgiveness by God through the blood of Christ, it is a sinful act--similar to the spirit of hatred. The bible is very clear on this concept. God says that if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you! How would anyone be forgiving someone else, if they dwell on another's repented sins and keep throwing it in their face? Answer, they can't! That was my point. The biblical examples of King David and Lot is for our learning and we don't live in their time obviously and can't cause them to spiritually stumble anymore, right? The person who has allegedly committed the acts of sexual abuse, by all accounts, has shown no indication of stopping or genuine repentance. He continued in his actions for quite awhile, never confessed anything, and there is no reports of his genuine repentance--just the opposite actually from what I still see and hear. So if someone hasn't genuinely repented, then they are still living in sin and should be dealt with accordingly. There needs to be a clear distinction between those who have genuinely repented, and those who haven't.
I think you're confusing two different people mentioned here... the person who turned in his resignation 3 times was NOT the alleged sexual abuser, he was one of the people who defended women at lcg hq and did his best to have the sexual abuse stop. He stayed because his wife, RCM and RFA and DSW begged him to stay and keep helping in the work of God, as he thought it was during that time. Again, this is NOT the alleged sexual abuser.
Very well said, agreed 100%.
The only difference is that in ‘the world’ a victim can report an assault to the authorities, and hopefully some justice will be done. In the COG’s too often a victim is shunned and the perpetrators learn that they can get away with anything because the entire congregation looks the other way claiming ‘that God will be the judge’.
I have watched stuff like that happening close up and it is heartbreaking to see what it does to women (most of the victims are women).
Thank you for clarifying. Yes if someone has confessed their sins and seriously repented, nobody should be holding onto that sin. Problem is most people love to focus on someone else's sin, and not look at their own, especially the COG ministry.
Nobody can honestly defend Lot's actions, and if your spouse did the exact same thing to your children, would you be alright with that? If your spouse willingly offered up your kids to a crazy group of nuts outside your house, and then later got drunk and had sex with your kids, you'd be "ok" with that? Seriously??? If anyone says yes to that, they don't deserve to be a parent and seriously need mental and spiritual help, fast!
Exactly, it's insane to defend Lot's sins.... yes, sins! His actions weren't merely unwise or bad choices, that's BS! His behavior was rancid, unethical, disgusting, filthy, horrific, and sinful. The bible describes A LOT of sinful actions, yet doesn't specifically go into the details of every act and label it sinful or "godly approved." It's beyond obvious that Lot's actions in those accounts were SINFUL and horrendous. King David's sins were horrific as well. But King David repented wholeheartedly and that makes all the difference in the world. King David was a remarkable example of godly repentance. I believe Lot repented as well, just my opinion. Someday, Lot will be the most fervent person to explain how horrible and wrong his actions were, regarding his daughters. Lot will not try to give excuses and explain it away, as just bad choices blah blah.
Anon 9:14
I'm anon 5:10 thanks for agreeing but the feelings not like wise. Since when are women chronic liars compared to men? Hogwash. By far the worst chronic liars I have ever encountered have been ALL part of the ministry.
Now that's the Plain Truth Anon 9:14.
According to Jesus Christ, if a married person thinks sexual thoughts about someone they're not married to, it's adultery... exactly the same in God's eyes as people who physically commit adultery. According to an article I read recently, 83% of married people in America questioned in a survey, indicated that they occasionally thought about having sex with someone other than their spouse. The survey focused on intended and focussed thoughts, not just random or fleeting thoughts. In other words, they admitted intentional and focussed thoughts about committing adultery... 83% of the thousands of people who took part in the survey. Now, according to what Christ said in the bible, that's a whole lot of people committing adultery in God's eyes. Do you really think that church members don't do the same thing? Do you really think that church leaders don't do the same thing? Hopefully it's less than 83%, but it's pretty darn certain that large numbers of even religious folks commit adultery too, in God's eyes. How many of them confess it? Probably very very few! How many of them truly repent of those thoughts and stop doing it forever? Again, probably few. Yet how many of these people sit in judgment of others and act as self righteous hypocrites? Many! So people need to focus on their own sins, and stop being hypocritical and pointing the finger at others who have repented, and have become overcomers through Christ. Of course just about everyone will say, "I don't do that" but in reality most are flat out lying, which is breaking another commandment. God knows, and everything will be shouted from the rooftops one day... there is no lying to God and He will set the record straight. There will be a lot of surprises in that day!
Anon 11:32, everything you're saying is wrong! He did tell RCM, and many other top ministers. He didn't care about being fired, never did. Unlike many at HQ, that man didn't play politics. He did trust God, and God blessed him BIG TIME in the years after that, especially the last few years... believe me, you have no idea! The victims needed to report it to police, nothing he could do there. Your criticisms here are totally bogus! You need to get your facts straight, seriously.
Anonymous December 15, 2020 12:51 AM here.
Thanks Anonymous December 14, 2020 2:39 PM for your response (December 15, 2020 11:26 AM) further clarifying your comments.
Anonymous December 15, 2020 at 12:22 PM said...
Nobody can honestly defend Lot's actions, and if your spouse did the exact same thing to your children, would you be alright with that? If your spouse willingly offered up your kids to a crazy group of nuts outside your house, and then later got drunk and had sex with your kids, you'd be "ok" with that? Seriously??? If anyone says yes to that, they don't deserve to be a parent and seriously need mental and spiritual help, fast!
Anonymous December 15, 2020 at 1:08 PM said...
Exactly, it's insane to defend Lot's sins.... yes, sins! His actions weren't merely unwise or bad choices, that's BS! His behavior was rancid, unethical, disgusting, filthy, horrific, and sinful. The bible describes A LOT of sinful actions, yet doesn't specifically go into the details of every act and label it sinful or "godly approved." It's beyond obvious that Lot's actions in those accounts were SINFUL and horrendous. King David's sins were horrific as well. But King David repented wholeheartedly and that makes all the difference in the world. King David was a remarkable example of godly repentance. I believe Lot repented as well, just my opinion. Someday, Lot will be the most fervent person to explain how horrible and wrong his actions were, regarding his daughters. Lot will not try to give excuses and explain it away, as just bad choices blah blah.
I'm not condoning Lot's foolish actions. Unlike David, however, there was no evil intention on his part at all. He didn't instigate the incestuous sex with his daughters. They naively did. So to condemn Lot, who was innocent, for the actions of his daughters is unjust. It's like blaming the victim who was drugged and then taken advantage of sexually. It would have been even worse if, after learning what befell between him and his daughters, he would’ve made them murder the innocent children that were conceived from their union.
Incidentally, I understand the Levitical sex bans weren’t in force until the Sinaitic Covenant. Thus, during the antediluvian era Adam and Eve’s children committed incest with each other to populate the earth. Even after Noah’s Flood incestuous conduct, as would be later defined by Leviticus 18 and 20, continued and was no where condemned with the patriarchs guilty of incest themselves, including Abraham, who married his half-sister Sarah; Nahor, Abraham’s brother, who married their niece Milcah; Jacob, who married both his cousins, sisters Leah and Rachel; Judah, who unwittingly had sex with his daughter-in-law, Tamar; and Moses’s parents, Amram, who married his aunt, Jochebed; among other examples. Now, however, such incestuous relationships would be prohibited.
Oops sorry I called you near earth object Non_Ecliptic_Orbit. .
I still have power did not get much snow and the inet is still working (except for when someone broke google but they fixed that :D )
Later Gators :)
Amen to that!
9.14 AM
A vile married woman in my congregation kept non-stop slandering me because I refused to have anything to do with her. Many believed her terrible lies. The ones who discerned the truth, did nothing, including our minister. I noticed that many members warmed up to such people purely because they were evil. My point is, treacherous women do exist.
The physical and moral laws of nature are set, with inbuilt penalities when broken. Incest results in medical problems including physical deformaties. Abraham's linage child bearing problems are one example. The ancient Pharaoh's often had deformaties associated with incest. Whether incest laws are legally formalized has no bearing on natural consequences.
Nobody denied that Anon 8:52. But it still is the case that the majority of assault victims is female. It has little to do with gender, but everything with power and your position on the church/social ladder. The lower your position on that ladder, the more vulnerable a person (male or female) is.
I am sorry to hear that you were a victim. There is nothing worse than being a victim and nobody believing your story because ‘a juicy one’ sounds more fun to gossip about.
Anon 8:12, We can agree to disagree. Is getting drunk a sin in the bible? Yes! And whether Noah did it too, makes no difference, still sin. Unless Lot's daughters physically tied him up, put a funnel in his mouth, and poured wine forcibly down his through, which obviously didn't happen, it was 100% Lot's sin. Then that sin led to more sin, which is exactly how sin works. If he didn't get drunk, he probably wouldn't have had disgusting incestuous sex with his own daughters. Sin begets more sin! Lot is guilty, period. Offering up his daughters to a perverted mob outside was sickening and pisses me off. I was 17 years old, and I intervened in a public parking lot to stop a young woman intoxicated from being raped in a car by a not as drunk man. I stopped it! I would do it again. I was 17, didn't have God's Holy Spirit yet, and had no idea whether that man, who was much bigger than me, might have a weapon or might just beat me up. I still intervened. God protected me, and the drunk woman did not get raped. If Lot would have acted godly instead of sinful and cowardly, he would have told that mob outside to leave immediately, and that everyone in his home was under his protection and God's. THAT'S what a righteous person would have done! There are no excuses for sin. If we start making endless excuses, you could then make excuses for Satan too, and make him appear as innocent, I've seen websites that actually used tons of scriptures and human reasoning to attempt exactly that. Lot sinned, it was horrible and wrong, period. If you want to think otherwise, do as you wish. I'm sure you mean well, and that you're a reasonable person. Like I said, we can agree to disagree.
"Is getting drunk a sin in the bible? Yes!"
Sorry but you're wrong here. Being a drunkard is a sin. Getting drunk on occasion is not, but it is not very wise to do so.
"The problem in America right now is the loss of any sense of what makes something true. Conspiracy theories are concocted and floated gleefully and the gullible and willfully ignorant consume them voraciously."
LOL, a not so subtle hit at Trump and his supporters. America was so perfect before the last four years occurred.
You are pathetic if you think conspiracy theories are the problem with America.
Are the ones who believe in those theories the fools or are the ones who immediately deny conspiracies the fool?
You do know that half of America believe the election was stolen don't you? And 30% of Democrats are among that number.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/more-voters-agree-there-was-election-fraud/ar-BB1bYZ95?ocid=AMZN
https://www.wnd.com/2020/11/surprising-percentage-democrats-think-party-stole-2020-election/
Who's the biggest fool, someone who believes that a conspiracy theory might be possible or someone who believes that something isn't possible because they've heard it denied so many times?
NEO, fact checkers are among the most biased groups that there is.
When a church or any organization has a policy of hiding the facts / truth from its members and the public, that's a very clear indication of corruption and mismanagement at the highest levels of that church / organization. When members / employees are pressured to keep silent about injustices and abuse, that is a clear indication that often criminal activity is occuring. These facts are evident in law enforcement statistics. Those within such organizations, who allow criminal and strong arm tactics to be utilized and persist, are equally as guilty of inappropriate conduct, as are the actual perpetrators of the criminal acts. Employees of such organizations, who report inappropriate / criminal activity, should be honored and protected as heros. However, in our current lawless and sinful environment / culture, just the opposite usually occurs, and that is a travesty that everyone involved will be held accountable. Often in church organizations, leadership misuses their authority and biblical principles, to pressure obedience and silence throughout their membership. If you are involved in such an organization, and see this conduct and behavior, you need to leave immediately.
Getting drunk even ONCE could easily result in a very serious event occuring as a result. I had a good friend in high school whose parents and brother were killed by a drunk driver. It came out in court that the drunk driver / murderer had no prior history of drunkenness. He lost his job the day before and was just depressed. He got drunk ONE time in his life and it resulted in three deaths. So sorry but you're wrong... one time is a sin. The idea that someone is
allowed "occasionally" to commit acts that are evil and ungodly only leads people to start experimenting with sinful and very dangerous behavior. Go tell my friend that her family's drunk driving murderer didn't sin. I saw the suffering and grief my friend dealt with for many years--that's what sin causes. One time is once too much!
1 Peter 4:3
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."
Notice that God's words clearly describes the state of being drunk--"drunkenness" as being an evil behavior to completely avoid. A person can experience "drunkenness" even once and hurt themselves or someone else. Even if someone gets drunk once they need to repent.... and be sure not to repeat that sinful and dangerous behavior. Nobody ever needs to get drunk! Trust God and drink in Christ instead--that's what we all need.
Oh please. No, Anon 3:36 you shouldn't leave immediately. A person should stay and fight. Fight for change, justice or even a voice being heard. Who knows who a still small voice may help.
Leaving immediately is what perpetrators of evil want. So maybe your advice has darker meaning and should be questioned.
Why don't you leave and stop advising others to leave. Those who belong to God why should they leave ?
I ask again is NEO even American? NEO is very woke.
“... If you are involved in such an organization, and see this conduct and behavior, you need to leave immediately ...”
I couldn’t agree more Anon 3:36!
And although a lot of the COG members feel that way also, they’re too afraid to do so. Leaving ‘the church’ will earn them the lake of fire (so they think).
And the COG leaders make sure they don’t miss out on any opportunity to remind the members about that. The COG members not only suffer abuse, they’re also held hostage by fear..
Common cult practice.
Anyone who belongs to God doesn’t belong in cults like the COG’s Anon 10:54.
The simple reason for that is, that the Churches of God, despite their name, are NOT of God. They’re man made money-making machines. Made to fill the pockets of Pack, Thiel, Weston and others.
Anon 10:54, If you have a problem with the very basic concepts I mentioned, then it's you with the sinister motives. Why do you want people to stay among a corrupt and abusive organization? Do you enjoy the corruption and abuse? Do you enjoy seeing others being abused? By your comment it sure seems like it. Any rational person would understand the aspects I mentioned, and not stay a party to sin and ungodly behavior... unless they themselves are part of it. People in these kinds of organizations aren't successfully "fighting" anything, rather they have been tainted with wrong teachings and examples, that have dramatically harmed many people.
Anon 3:36
Well said. I agree with most of what you wrote. The only part I kinda disagree about is, the members who stay involved in such organizations being guilty. I understand the point you're making, and sometimes it's definitely true.... but not all the time. Some people really are clueless about things happening around them, they shouldn't be but they are. But again, I agree with the vast majority of what you said.
OK anon December 16, 2020 at 1:07 PM I have to point out one thing that helps me stay sane:
This is Satan's world right now, One day the Bible & other books say that this will become God's world... I personally believe this but if u don't that's cool with me.
Since I quit lcg I've learned that there are shades of gray and flavors of anger and if you look at the universe as black & white (figuritly) then you miss a lot and I should know since what is left of my vision can only detect black, greys and white
of everything since I've mostly lost my central vision I stay scared
and know evil is everywhere .
Until this world becomes God's there will be evil & vile acts upon this planet and wherever humanity spreads.
Those facts suck but so do black holes & all of the above can be proved if u listen with an open ear open mind and heart
sorry didn't mean to preach I just would like everyone to get along and be happy.
Will it happen in the current age, no but that does not mean we cannot be happy if we ask God.
Stephen :)
Anonymous December 15, 2020 12:51 AM/December 15, 2020 at 8:12 PM here again :-)
Thanks Anonymous December 16, 2020 at 10:48 AM for your response.
Firstly, I note Anonymous December 16, 2020 at 12:45 PM comment whose sentiments regarding the difference between getting drunk on occasion versus being a drunkard I am inclined to agree with.
You bring up Noah and his getting drunk and blame him—by extension—for the sexual sin his son Ham (or according to some, his grandson Canaan) committed against him (or according to some, Noah’s wife) like you blame Lot—by extension—for the sexual sin his daughters committed against him. But, in my opinion, this is wholly unjust and a type of victim blaming, which I respectfully disagree with as I previously stated.
While I don’t condone Lot’s outrageous offering of his virgin daughters to the rabid homosexual mob and critics are quick to condemn him for it only God knows what his thinking was. We can only speculate was his offer genuine or would he seriously go through with it if they accepted or did his position as an elder (or judge) in the city afford him some insight into their character and thus he knew they would reject it? Either way this shocking scenario was indicative of the moral decline of the city (cf. Judges 19) and the reason for divine judgment despite Abraham’s priestly intercession for Sodom.
Your account of rescuing an inebriated young woman from being sexually assaulted is highly commendable. I can only hope to be so brave if I find myself in similar circumstances requiring me to step up and stand up for what is right. But, by your logic she would be morally culpable for the actions of the other party. This I strongly disagree with. Noah got drunk. Lot got drunk. But, that doesn’t mean they’re to blame for the sinful actions of their children. Incidentally I found this a good albeit brief summary of both accounts.
Anyway peace brother! :-)
NEO isn’t even of this earth. Hence his name..
11:47
Can you even begin to see the stupidity in a narrative about "daughters offered to a homosexual mob?'
Either the writer was insane or the narrative has a few interpretation issues.
Nck
anon 11:47
It appears that you're jumping to conclusions that aren't actually indicated in the comments above, and adding a great deal of speculation. We could all do that to each other everyday, and invent spin in every direction. Let's just stick to the facts. Please don't add words or intentions to others' comments that aren't really there. You can believe as you want, and so can everyone else. To me, I think Lot was a godly man who made a few very poor decisions, which could easily be described as sinful and irresponsible. He obviously learned from his mistakes, as all godly persons do, and became an overcomer. The bible tells us that everyone has sinned, except Christ, and that is undeniable. Lot was not "perfect." Lot committed sins in his life, as we all have. Let's learn the things we need to learn from the biblical accounts, and not make the same mistakes. That's what God, and Lot, would want us all to do.
Nck, the mob members were not necessarily homosexuals. They were a mob animated by animosity, not lust. Anal rape is a common way human aggressors (also dogs, from my observation) express contemptuous domination.
I'm Anonymous December 15, 2020 12:51 AM/December 15, 2020 8:12 PM/December 16, 2020 11:47 PM
I was, I believe, conversing with 1) Anonymous December 14, 2020 2:39 PM/December 15, 2020 11:26 AM/December 16, 2020 10:48 AM and then responding to 2) Anonymous December 15, 2020 at 12:22 PM and 3) Anonymous December 15, 2020 at 1:08 PM.
I don’t know if you, Anonymous December 17, 2020 11:37 AM, are one of these (I assume) 3 different people, or another person entirely. In any case, I’m sorry, but with respect I disagree with your assertion. Where exactly am I “jumping to conclusions that aren’t actually indicated in the comments above, and adding to a great deal of speculation” and “add[ing] words or intentions to others’ comments that aren’t really there?”
Like you said we’re all free to choose who or what to believe and act accordingly. I simply expressed my opinion, that I respectfully disagreed with the opinions of those Anonymous aforementioned, and articulated my reasons. I’m definitely not forcing anyone to agree with me. I never said Lot was “perfect.” All I stated was I believe (unlike David who did sin by seducing a married woman to commit adultery with him causing her to fall pregnant, conspire to have her husband essentially murdered, and cover it all up) Lot wasn’t guilty of the sin of incest, which I believe his daughters committed against him just like Noah who, I believe, wasn’t guilty of the sexual immorality perpetrated against him. To impute sin to the guiltless is no less a sin and a form of injustice in my opinion. That’s all.
7:26
I just read 2 sentences of your postings.
I believe that wcg was right in its teaching that many diseases like mental health, cancer, other heriditary contaminations and perhaps in many cases poverty, can and mostly are the result of sin.
However, not necessarily because of sins comitted or perpetrated by the person suffering from the results or effects.
In the military they use "moral injury" for people suffering from decisions they made in split seconds, even just decisions, that went against their moral conscious and they suffer perpetually.
Like shooting the kid on the motor cycle aproaching the road block. Then they realize it wasnt a gun in their hands, but the christmas decorations for the compound.
Nck
Ugggghhh way too complicated to read. Let it go Anon 7:26.
Abuse is abuse. Assault is assault. Misuse of power is misuse of power.
Regardless religion, bible verses or gender!
Well that's one for the memory bank CIA "nck".
Stranger things have happened nck especially in the good ol’ US of A
Heavy is heavy, beautiful is beautiful, amusing is amusing.
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