Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
What a ridiculous thing to say. How demeaning towards women. Just goes to show you that PCG and Armstrongism in general is mainly made for men.
In other matters I saw this paragraph in Chapter 1 of HWA's Autobiography and it sort of jumped out at me. He wrote this in 1957 when he was about 65 years old. (Emphasis mine.)
"My first date with a girl took place at about this time -- a date to escort a next-door neighbor girl in my class in high school to some school function. At that stage I was pretty much in awe of girls, and felt awkward in their presence. It has always been a puzzle to me that so many boys around that age are afraid of girls, ill at ease before them, and yet girls seem not to be shy or bashful in any way in the company of boys. For the next 8 years I continued to date this girl on and off, (not what today is termed "going steady," however), but never did I put my arm around her, kiss her, or as they would say today, "neck with her." (It was called "loving up" in those days.) It just wasn't generally done in those days--or, if it was, my eyes had not yet been open to the practice."
So HWA wrote "girls seem not to be shy or bashful in any way in the company of boys." That is not true. How did HWA ever think that was how things are?
What a foolish, sexist thing HWA said.
(Please note: the last sentence of the quote is present in the September 1957 Plain Truth and the 1973 edition of the Autobiography. However it is not present in the 1986 edition.)
This is Mr Minister So remember boys and girls, the church members are just the moon that has no light in itself, but just reflects the light of the ministers.
The elephant in the room: The Bible, both OT and NT, was authored by people who lived in patriarchal cultures. A downfall of the literalist inerrancy model is that the culture of those ancient times is carried over into modern Christian praxis as if it were dogma. There are all kinds of cultural statements and examples in the Bible that we recognize are not required in modern times. People used to recline when they ate - you know, lie down on the floor on some pillows. I have heard of an ethnic restaurant that did this in Colorado. This is a very uncomfortable way to eat in my thinking.
The real question is how do we tease out the First Century cultural statements from what God really wants us to do. Apparently, this splinter group teased out principle differently from some but much like many others. In this careful parsing of principle, it is important to recognize that there is a difference between Jesus and the church. And one must keep in mind that the church started out on wobbly legs. The church believed initially that Christ was going to come very soon and then they had to fall back and regroup. But a lot of "near term" writing is in the NT.
You might ask, "What does miscalculating the Parousia have to do with cultural statements about the role of women?" My view is that the early church did not separate the 70 AD events from the Parousia. And this was cultural. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah. I get the feeling that the disciples expected Jesus to meet their expectations as the Jewish Messiah, someone who would overthrow the Roman oppressors, free and glorify Israel and begin to include the Gentiles in the knowledge of God. I have always thought it puzzling that the disciples never seemed to ask Christ many theological questions. It could be that they were cruising along on what they knew of the beliefs of Late Second Temple Judaism. And it could be that they did not really understand what Christ was about until late in the game. They saw the miracles but who would have expected that the messiah would die a humiliating death at the hands of the Roman oppressors. I wouldn't if I were them. The point is, we see the role of First Century culture in the NT and its role is not to be dogma.
The important matter is not what the culturally influenced church did vis-à-vis women. The important matter is what did Christ do.
How many times the children of Church families would tell me, "You know Mr. Diehl, my mom and dad are different at church than they are at home." And too, the NT command for husbands to "love their wives" and to wives "to see that they respect their husbands" seems really contrived. These mental processes, in our time, are not that which must be commanded to be especially if they are not. One either loves or respects or not. Unless of course if the concepts of love and respect are less consciously understood and experience then as compared to now.
What an idiot. He (Gerald Flurry) is not alone in his misogynistic way of thinking...I personally know a few ministers who discourage young women from pursuing secondary education or working outside the home - intimating that their "place" is best pictured in the tv commercials and magazine advertisements we used to see in 1950's, where the "little lady" with her vapid facial expression meets hubby at the door with a martini in one hand and his slippers in the other. As a strong-willed, opinionated, and EDUCATED Christian woman, I'd be happy to debate him on the topic - but debating takes a solid and rational intellect, and I'm afraid he's unarmed in that area!
It's like the believer's relationship with Jesus Christ, the "Light of the world." I've heard Chuck Swindoll use the sun-moon comparison that way on radio.
Not about marriage, though. He didn't extend the Ephesians 5 analogy that far.
Gerald Flurry claimed from the start that his PCG cult was holding on faithfully to everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught in the Worldwide Church of God at the time of his death in 1986. The apostate Tkaches' Great Apostasy of 1995, when they rejected and threw out of the WCG virtually everything that HWA had ever taught, provided enough confusion for Gerald Flurry to attract former WCG people by using HWA's name and photograph all the time. He criticized the apostate Tkaches for their doctrinal changes, but also made some truly huge doctrinal changes of his own, which were somehow supposedly okay.
The reality is that Gerald Flurry immediately changed the very commission of the whole church from “preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God” to “warning the Laodiceans” by refusing to talk to former WCG people. PCG cult members were forbidden to listen to any other so-called COGs. Gerald Flurry quickly “flooded” his PCG cult with “much new revelation” about how great he was and how great his plagiarized and revised “little book” was. Gerald Flurry also soon claimed that he, rather than Jesus, was what he called “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that everyone had to listen to. More recently, Gerald Flurry found a new pet rock to be his new throne, because he can change, and make up, anything he wants to, while still claiming to be HWA's true successor who is faithfully holding on to everything that HWA had taught. Gerald Flurry even edited and changed HWA's old writings.
Gerald Flurry came up with a “No Contact Policy” to keep PCG members from talking to anyone with old WCG understanding who could warn them about what he is actually doing. Even when PCG cult members realize what a satanic fraud Gerald Flurry really is, they cannot escape from the PCG cult or else all their fake friends in the PCG cult will turn against them and totally abandon them. Even worse, their own close family members and relatives in the PCG cult will cut off all communication with them if they leave the PCG cult or get kicked out of it.
The result is that some people who thought that they were so brave and concerned about the truth when they rejected the apostate Tkaches' Great Apostasy of 1995 are no longer so brave or concerned about the truth after all. The apostate Tkaches were just the the first phase of Satan's plan for WCG people and were relatively easy-going. That False Prophet Gerald Flurry is the second phase of Satan's plan for some former WCG people, and is much more strict. PCG cult members have now found themselves hopelessly TRAPPED in a satanic imposter cult.
Anyone that wants to safekeep their marriage and family should stay as far away as possible from Flurry and not listen to any of his advice. He is a fraud
Anonymous said: The apostate Tkaches were just the the first phase of Satan's plan for WCG people and were relatively easy-going. That False Prophet Gerald Flurry is the second phase of Satan's plan for some former WCG people, and is much more strict. PCG cult members have now found themselves hopelessly TRAPPED in a satanic imposter cult.
So....you are saying that the WCG people ARE "true church" people after all? Doh!
Dennis wrote: "How many times the children of Church families would tell me, "You know Mr. Diehl, my mom and dad are different at church than they are at home." And too, the NT command for husbands to "love their wives" and to wives "to see that they respect their husbands" seems really contrived."
"IF" he was actually talking to children like this .... then He has a problem! (or had).
The other part about husbands loving wives and wives respecting their husbands ...??? I have lived it and am still living it. Sorry things did not work out for Dennis, and surely it couldn't be his fault since he continually presents himself as a 'victim'. It works as encouraged by scripture. Didn't work for Dennis ---- obviously, and for that I am sorry.
Deut 4:2 instructs to not add or subtract from God's word and Proverbs 30:5-6 also states to not add to God's word. Yet these groups are notorious for adding to God words. For example the PCGs teaching for parents to turn their backs on their unbaptized children if they refuse to attend services. Or the ACOGs demanding that its members marry within the church. This man made rule negates and ignored that a Christian is one who follows Christ rather than some church rules. A Christians responsibility is to marry the person that God chooses rather than blindly obey some self serving church rules designed to make it harder for members to escape an abusive organisation.
Anon 6:13 I agree, please site your source. The pcg is a crazy cult, divides families, manipulates, takes your money etc, but I’m not sure this is 100% accurate. The reason it bothers me, is because members who May brave it and read some of this, everytime they read something that they know isn’t accurate drives them away from these sites. And these sites offer a good starting place when it comes to dismantling the Armstrongism lies.
PCG keeps a tight grasp on the audio/video they play at services. Not even long-time loyal members have any access to them, only ministers. Nor would they dare to share them publicly on the web. I've had the pleasure of having access to some back in 2020, when they were uploading them on their pcg.church site at the height of COVID, thru a member sharing access, but not anymore. And I was able to share a lot with this site as well as ESN in 2020. So, no, no links can be given or sites where audio/video can be played, unless somebody who has them shares them with you. -Scott T.
Not only is he unarmed in the solid intellect area, but he also doesn't have the balls, neither he nor his ministers, to openly debate their doctrine or their so-called revelations published in their books. Why, he can't even answer simple email questions or inquiries about these literature, what more, a debate? I laud your efforts, ma'am, but these snake-oil salesmen know a trap they can't spring from when they sense one. Your time is better spent on real snakes. At least they have the courage to face you. And I mean that in a nice way - Scott T.
"You know Mr. Diehl, my mom and dad are different at church than they are at home."
For many years, in many situations, ministers were taught that there were no acceptable "boundary" lines beyond which they could not or should not intrude. Some ministers actively cultivated children to rat out their parents' independence, free thinking, or disloyalty. I can't imagine Dennis as one of those who would deliberately use children to get at their parents, but he was trained in a culture where such division of families was not only acceptable but even at times expected.
Anons 6:13, 10:31: Yes, when someone finds an error in an accusation, they will try to destroy the whole argument. Citing a source at least shows you didn't make it up - unless you wrote the source material cited - or it was hearsay.
These ministers that were trained in the church culture of lording it over members and disregarding personal boundaries, also knew that it was condemned in the bible. They knew that a Christian is one who obeys God rather than man. I personally give them no slack because "Herb said I can do it," and neither will God. How the heck can anyone be daily studying their bible and not know this??
Many people who are/were with the WCG and any of the offshoots are doing nothing but following men and/or an organization. If the man or organization crumbles they go down with it.
What COG leader past or present can honestly say that they are following Christ, and then expect the members to follow him accordingly?
Plagiarist Gerald Flurry didn't come up with this man/woman/sun/moon idea on his own. He stole the idea from Neil Diamond except Flurry got backwards since it doesn't fit his narrative. The woman was the sun and the man was the moon in Diamond's "Play Me"
George Orwell said that "A people who elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices." Those who remain in these cults are not victims, but accomplices with the cult leaders as they victimize others. The members are funding the abuse.
My experience was that many members completely threw in their lot with abusive ministers. The minister and these minions were no different than a street gang. The bible was only used as a club against their victims.
29 comments:
Uhhhh .... I thought the TWO were to be "ONE". Hmmm.... how does that work?
Uhhhh .... I thought the TWO were to be "ONE". Hmmm.... how does that work?
What a ridiculous thing to say. How demeaning towards women. Just goes to show you that PCG and Armstrongism in general is mainly made for men.
In other matters I saw this paragraph in Chapter 1 of HWA's Autobiography and it sort of jumped out at me. He wrote this in 1957 when he was about 65 years old. (Emphasis mine.)
"My first date with a girl took place at about this time -- a date to escort a next-door neighbor girl in my class in high school to some school function. At that stage I was pretty much in awe of girls, and felt awkward in their presence. It has always been a puzzle to me that so many boys around that age are afraid of girls, ill at ease before them, and yet girls seem not to be shy or bashful in any way in the company of boys. For the next 8 years I continued to date this girl on and off, (not what today is termed "going steady," however), but never did I put my arm around her, kiss her, or as they would say today, "neck with her." (It was called "loving up" in those days.) It just wasn't generally done in those days--or, if it was, my eyes had not yet been open to the practice."
So HWA wrote "girls seem not to be shy or bashful in any way in the company of boys." That is not true. How did HWA ever think that was how things are?
What a foolish, sexist thing HWA said.
(Please note: the last sentence of the quote is present in the September 1957 Plain Truth and the 1973 edition of the Autobiography. However it is not present in the 1986 edition.)
This is Mr Minister
So remember boys and girls, the church members are just the moon that has no light in itself, but just reflects the light of the ministers.
Flurry is a reflection of a SOCIOPATH!
For credibility, please cite your source. At least a date and location/context; ideally a link to a recording.
The elephant in the room: The Bible, both OT and NT, was authored by people who lived in patriarchal cultures. A downfall of the literalist inerrancy model is that the culture of those ancient times is carried over into modern Christian praxis as if it were dogma. There are all kinds of cultural statements and examples in the Bible that we recognize are not required in modern times. People used to recline when they ate - you know, lie down on the floor on some pillows. I have heard of an ethnic restaurant that did this in Colorado. This is a very uncomfortable way to eat in my thinking.
The real question is how do we tease out the First Century cultural statements from what God really wants us to do. Apparently, this splinter group teased out principle differently from some but much like many others. In this careful parsing of principle, it is important to recognize that there is a difference between Jesus and the church. And one must keep in mind that the church started out on wobbly legs. The church believed initially that Christ was going to come very soon and then they had to fall back and regroup. But a lot of "near term" writing is in the NT.
You might ask, "What does miscalculating the Parousia have to do with cultural statements about the role of women?" My view is that the early church did not separate the 70 AD events from the Parousia. And this was cultural. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah. I get the feeling that the disciples expected Jesus to meet their expectations as the Jewish Messiah, someone who would overthrow the Roman oppressors, free and glorify Israel and begin to include the Gentiles in the knowledge of God. I have always thought it puzzling that the disciples never seemed to ask Christ many theological questions. It could be that they were cruising along on what they knew of the beliefs of Late Second Temple Judaism. And it could be that they did not really understand what Christ was about until late in the game. They saw the miracles but who would have expected that the messiah would die a humiliating death at the hands of the Roman oppressors. I wouldn't if I were them. The point is, we see the role of First Century culture in the NT and its role is not to be dogma.
The important matter is not what the culturally influenced church did vis-à-vis women. The important matter is what did Christ do.
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How many times the children of Church families would tell me, "You know Mr. Diehl, my mom and dad are different at church than they are at home." And too, the NT command for husbands to "love their wives" and to wives "to see that they respect their husbands" seems really contrived. These mental processes, in our time, are not that which must be commanded to be especially if they are not. One either loves or respects or not. Unless of course if the concepts of love and respect are less consciously understood and experience then as compared to now.
I am an exPCG member and heard FLurry say this in a sermon once. Disgusting man.
What an idiot. He (Gerald Flurry) is not alone in his misogynistic way of thinking...I personally know a few ministers who discourage young women from pursuing secondary education or working outside the home - intimating that their "place" is best pictured in the tv commercials and magazine advertisements we used to see in 1950's, where the "little lady" with her vapid facial expression meets hubby at the door with a martini in one hand and his slippers in the other. As a strong-willed, opinionated, and EDUCATED Christian woman, I'd be happy to debate him on the topic - but debating takes a solid and rational intellect, and I'm afraid he's unarmed in that area!
It's like the believer's relationship with Jesus Christ, the "Light of the world." I've heard Chuck Swindoll use the sun-moon comparison that way on radio.
Not about marriage, though. He didn't extend the Ephesians 5 analogy that far.
Gerald R. Flurry's Satanic TRAP
Gerald Flurry claimed from the start that his PCG cult was holding on faithfully to everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught in the Worldwide Church of God at the time of his death in 1986. The apostate Tkaches' Great Apostasy of 1995, when they rejected and threw out of the WCG virtually everything that HWA had ever taught, provided enough confusion for Gerald Flurry to attract former WCG people by using HWA's name and photograph all the time. He criticized the apostate Tkaches for their doctrinal changes, but also made some truly huge doctrinal changes of his own, which were somehow supposedly okay.
The reality is that Gerald Flurry immediately changed the very commission of the whole church from “preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God” to “warning the Laodiceans” by refusing to talk to former WCG people. PCG cult members were forbidden to listen to any other so-called COGs. Gerald Flurry quickly “flooded” his PCG cult with “much new revelation” about how great he was and how great his plagiarized and revised “little book” was. Gerald Flurry also soon claimed that he, rather than Jesus, was what he called “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that everyone had to listen to. More recently, Gerald Flurry found a new pet rock to be his new throne, because he can change, and make up, anything he wants to, while still claiming to be HWA's true successor who is faithfully holding on to everything that HWA had taught. Gerald Flurry even edited and changed HWA's old writings.
Gerald Flurry came up with a “No Contact Policy” to keep PCG members from talking to anyone with old WCG understanding who could warn them about what he is actually doing. Even when PCG cult members realize what a satanic fraud Gerald Flurry really is, they cannot escape from the PCG cult or else all their fake friends in the PCG cult will turn against them and totally abandon them. Even worse, their own close family members and relatives in the PCG cult will cut off all communication with them if they leave the PCG cult or get kicked out of it.
The result is that some people who thought that they were so brave and concerned about the truth when they rejected the apostate Tkaches' Great Apostasy of 1995 are no longer so brave or concerned about the truth after all. The apostate Tkaches were just the the first phase of Satan's plan for WCG people and were relatively easy-going. That False Prophet Gerald Flurry is the second phase of Satan's plan for some former WCG people, and is much more strict. PCG cult members have now found themselves hopelessly TRAPPED in a satanic imposter cult.
Anyone that wants to safekeep their marriage and family should stay as far away as possible from Flurry and not listen to any of his advice. He is a fraud
That's not how Loma was with Herbert.
Anonymous said:
The apostate Tkaches were just the the first phase of Satan's plan for WCG people and were relatively easy-going. That False Prophet Gerald Flurry is the second phase of Satan's plan for some former WCG people, and is much more strict. PCG cult members have now found themselves hopelessly TRAPPED in a satanic imposter cult.
So....you are saying that the WCG people ARE "true church" people after all? Doh!
Anonymous at 2:45 PM said...“So....you are saying that the WCG people ARE 'true church' people after all? Doh!”
The PCG cult is a satanic fraud whether the WCG people were “true church” people or not. Either way, the PCG cult is evil.
And many people now in the PCG cult were not exactly “good people” back in the WCG either.
Dennis wrote: "How many times the children of Church families would tell me, "You know Mr. Diehl, my mom and dad are different at church than they are at home." And too, the NT command for husbands to "love their wives" and to wives "to see that they respect their husbands" seems really contrived."
"IF" he was actually talking to children like this .... then He has a problem! (or had).
The other part about husbands loving wives and wives respecting their husbands ...??? I have lived it and am still living it. Sorry things did not work out for Dennis, and surely it couldn't be his fault since he continually presents himself as a 'victim'. It works as encouraged by scripture. Didn't work for Dennis ---- obviously, and for that I am sorry.
Deut 4:2 instructs to not add or subtract from God's word and Proverbs 30:5-6 also states to not add to God's word. Yet these groups are notorious for adding to God words. For example the PCGs teaching for parents to turn their backs on their unbaptized children if they refuse to attend services. Or the ACOGs demanding that its members marry within the church. This man made rule negates and ignored that a Christian is one who follows Christ rather than some church rules. A Christians responsibility is to marry the person that God chooses rather than blindly obey some self serving church rules designed to make it harder for members to escape an abusive organisation.
Anon 6:13
I agree, please site your source. The pcg is a crazy cult, divides families, manipulates, takes your money etc, but I’m not sure this is 100% accurate. The reason it bothers me, is because members who May brave it and read some of this, everytime they read something that they know isn’t accurate drives them away from these sites. And these sites offer a good starting place when it comes to dismantling the Armstrongism lies.
PCG keeps a tight grasp on the audio/video they play at services. Not even long-time loyal members have any access to them, only ministers. Nor would they dare to share them publicly on the web. I've had the pleasure of having access to some back in 2020, when they were uploading them on their pcg.church site at the height of COVID, thru a member sharing access, but not anymore. And I was able to share a lot with this site as well as ESN in 2020. So, no, no links can be given or sites where audio/video can be played, unless somebody who has them shares them with you.
-Scott T.
Anon 9:36
Not only is he unarmed in the solid intellect area, but he also doesn't have the balls, neither he nor his ministers, to openly debate their doctrine or their so-called revelations published in their books. Why, he can't even answer simple email questions or inquiries about these literature, what more, a debate? I laud your efforts, ma'am, but these snake-oil salesmen know a trap they can't spring from when they sense one. Your time is better spent on real snakes. At least they have the courage to face you. And I mean that in a nice way - Scott T.
Anon 10:31
Oh, yeah, believe me. Flurry said that. - Scott T.
"You know Mr. Diehl, my mom and dad are different at church than they are at home."
For many years, in many situations, ministers were taught that there were no acceptable "boundary" lines beyond which they could not or should not intrude. Some ministers actively cultivated children to rat out their parents' independence, free thinking, or disloyalty. I can't imagine Dennis as one of those who would deliberately use children to get at their parents, but he was trained in a culture where such division of families was not only acceptable but even at times expected.
Anons 6:13, 10:31: Yes, when someone finds an error in an accusation, they will try to destroy the whole argument. Citing a source at least shows you didn't make it up - unless you wrote the source material cited - or it was hearsay.
These ministers that were trained in the church culture of lording it over members and disregarding personal boundaries, also knew that it was condemned in the bible. They knew that a Christian is one who obeys God rather than man. I personally give them no slack because "Herb said I can do it," and neither will God.
How the heck can anyone be daily studying their bible and not know this??
Many people who are/were with the WCG and any of the offshoots are doing nothing but following men and/or an organization. If the man or organization crumbles they go down with it.
What COG leader past or present can honestly say that they are following Christ, and then expect the members to follow him accordingly?
Plagiarist Gerald Flurry didn't come up with this man/woman/sun/moon idea on his own. He stole the idea from Neil Diamond except Flurry got backwards since it doesn't fit his narrative. The woman was the sun and the man was the moon in Diamond's "Play Me"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbRgpsJtqwU
Richard
George Orwell said that "A people who elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices."
Those who remain in these cults are not victims, but accomplices with the cult leaders as they victimize others. The members are funding the abuse.
My experience was that many members completely threw in their lot with abusive ministers. The minister and these minions were no different than a street gang. The bible was only used as a club against their victims.
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