TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 2016
Dennis Confronts Dave Pack: "If I Ever Go Off Into Strange or Weird Ideas..."
NOTE: Due to the ongoing melt down of Dave Pack it has been suggested that this post be reposted.
If I Ever Go Off Into Strange or Weird Ideas...
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."
David C Pack
December 12, 1998
Actually Dave, I totally understand what you are saying and just did quote it back to you as instructed. That time you foresaw has arrived and indeed, you are uttering both strange and weird things about yourself. If I read all the letters sent to you by former employees and members correctly, you also have tendencies to act in unscriptural ways but I am pretty sure you don't see that side of this coin. What chance is there you will see the trail of tears you have left for decades when you are struggling to figure out just what "filthy rags" you, as the fulfillment of Haggai's Joshua the High Priest might have to remove. The idea that all you can come up with is that you sinned not leaving the splinters soon enough or not starting your own church soon enough is...well...a strange and weird idea to say the least
So the time has come to tell you that your current ideas about just where you fit in the Biblical scheme of things has come. It is time to tell you, as instructed, that your ideas about you being foretold in the minor prophet Haggai or Zephaniah is truly a strange and weird idea. I have to admit, you do follow the A, B, C and X,Y and Z format in explaining this ridiculous concept as you predicted so at least thanks for sticking to the format so we could recognize it and call you out on it as instructed.
First of all, you have been in "rebellion" for as long as I have known you. Now I understand one man's rebellion is another man's faithfulness, but let's face it...you have never done well working for anyone that told you what to do. Men such as yourself simply can't take instructions, correction or advice. I have chatted with a few of your close staff who confirm that you taking advice is not a strong point. It tends to enrage you. I recall your sojourn in New York City where you were sent to work under Mr.___________ as your one last chance to get your team player skills together. I asked Mr. _________ how you were doing working for and with others but not in charge and not having the final say. He said you were doing fine for now and what you needed to do to get through it, but when you were ever back on your own you'd fall back into all that you have since fallen back into. Now that man was a Prophet for sure. He said, "People don't change much." And this is true. Some get worse.
The idea that you are foretold in the scriptures some 2500 years after the fact is simply weird and strange. It is also a lie. You are truly the master of making a scripture mean what it never meant. From declaring that "houses" in Haggai is really splinters to your nutcase idea that all the tithes of the splinters need to flow unto you because it belongs to you is simply insane. Ok, I mean strange and weird to stick to your terminology and what we had to look out for in you. You even have the amount calculated I imagine because you know as well as I do that it has never been about the numbers with you , but it really is. Remember redrawing church boundries so you could have a larger congregation without actually having new folk come along? I do. The minister next door only found out when the member showed him the letter telling him he has been switched to your congregation . Kinda strange and weird even back then.
But back to the current strange and weird ideas. It was kinda neat to see how you explained that HWA knew he was at first a type of Zerubbabel (which means 'born of confusion" btw) and in the next paragraph he knew he was Zerubbabel and not just any type, and finally ended up not knowing who Joshua the High Priest would be. Funny, I recall it being plainly GTA according the HWA when he was hoping Ted would get rid of his filthy rags and return to his duties in the church. Gerald Waterhouse was real big on GTA and the filthy rag theory. So in a very short time, you evolved HWA's thinking back then to match and pave the way for you now. Strange and weird huh? The more bad news is that HWA also was never spoken of in any scripture but I know you'd not believe such a thing. I mean what's the chance that out of billions, it is YOU? I hesitate to say that since Haggai was never written for much into the future as you think. Prophets, real or imagined, sane or insane do not write about events outside their perceived lifetimes. What good would that be? I could go back to the Book of Lamentations and see my entire experience with WCG foretold and how I would evolve and endeavor to help the brain dead in the COGs wake up a bit but I don't have the energy. Jeremiah lived a rather melancholy life so it would be stretching his intent I think.
Loved your phrase, ""I want to make a statement about...me..." Making statements about you has never been difficult . Once you see yourself in the Bible how can it be any different?. Of the 24 times the Apostle Paul is referred to as an Apostle, he calls himself one 22 of those and Luke, his side kick, the other 2. Other than that , no one thought so or at least mentioned it. Kinda like yourself. Kinda like Gerald Flurry with whom you have much in common. The taking of title in the WCG slivers is just short of astounding. Where do you guys come from?
"I wanna talk about me!""No other epistle author in the Bible wrote like Paul. This would be true on a number of levels, but one aspect is of particular interest when we are considering how Paul views himself. He had a way of drawing attention to himself with his usage of personal pronouns. When it comes to how often he uses words like, "I", "me", "my", or "mine", the overall rate in his epistles is almost three times that of his next closest rival."
And so it is with yourself. Please don't take any comparison with the Apostle Paul as a compliment from me. Or you don't know me very well on this issue.
Now I am betting you are saying "...it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z." But, we're on to you and this is the very circumstance you said could come up and you told us all just how to react. I am doing you the very favor you begged the brethren to watch out for.
I am just reminding your, so far, brain dead followers that you said it and that you would do everything in your power to convince them you aren't getting into strange and weird ideas. Well, you are and you have and it's time to pony up as they say.
You continued to say concerning youself..." Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it..."
Well...forget it you have and I imagine you really wish we'd all forget it too just as you said. I have to say, this prophecy of how you would be and act when you got all strange and weird was really right on. Since you are incapacitated in memory and bound and determined to see yourself as Joshua the High Priest or whatever as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, it is our job to keep the balance as yours has completely left you. You can't get upset as you told the brethren to be on the look out for just this kind of deviance from the norm. And so we do.
It is not necessary to go through Haggai with you or anyone else to prove that the Bible does not speak of you, you are not any Joshua the really spoken of High Priest and all your detailed analysis of the book is not really what the book was all about. They don't call it anal--ysis for nothing Dave. You weave a great yarn, but a yarn it is and it won't take long for it to unwind as did the machinations of the not really the Two Witnesses Ron Weinland or the not really "That Prophet" Gerald Flurry. Geez...how many times do the WCG leftovers have to learn this lesson?
I drove through Wadsworth this past week and sincerely thought to stop in and have a chat but I was told you'd call the police and I don't have time for that. I guess you don't want to debate after asking you three times huh?
At any rate, I thought it was time to quote you back to you as you asked for such a time as this. Your foresight and insight into how you would behave in such a case of going weird and strange was very well spoken. I'm proud of you for speaking so plainly before the time of the actual weird and strange beliefs and I am thankful the Internet preserved your prophetic words for so long.
When you recover your senses, you will thank me. We can hug and make up because that which was lost will have been found and your sanity will, like Nebuchadnezzar ,have returned. I hope it does not take seven years but it is what it is and will be what it will be. I'm here for ya when your mind comes back.
In closing, a word about your very last statement. "But I'm not going anywhere." I'm a pretty intuitive guy. I know what people mean between the lines when they write or speak. "But I'm not going anywhere" is meant to calm the troops after such dramatic statements. It is actually a subconscious ploy , whether you know it or not, to get to say all this dramatic "don't follow me if I get weird and strange, but of course I will never get weird or strange," so now you can now actually start getting weird and strange and they won't think it is weird or strange.
After all, you just told them how you would behave and then assured them you'd never actually do that and then you get to do it and they don't get it. Brilliant! It's like the tassels and ribbons that warriors used to put on the ends of the spears. In battle they would wave them around and it was just natural for the human eye to follow the pretty ribbon and tassel as it was waved in their face. Well it was pretty until the actual spear point was shoved into one's chest. Distractions and disclaimers are the tassels and ribbons on the end of a very dangerous spear.
Anyway...I just thought I'd quote you back to you for such a time as this in your thinking. I really don't want to see anyone else get hurt with religion done badly and mental problems being mistaken for spirituality and truth. Was that harsh?
Warm regards
Anyway...I just thought I'd quote you back to you for such a time as this in your thinking. I really don't want to see anyone else get hurt with religion done badly and mental problems being mistaken for spirituality and truth. Was that harsh?
Warm regards
25 comments:
It's funny how both GTA and HWA still casts shadows on many. GTA would be 93 on February 9th and has been dead going on 20 years now , and HWA died 37 years ago, and was born 131 years ago!
So much for the 3 to 5 year thing, which Pack has now corrupted into the 3 to 5 WEEK thing!
Obviously, if Dave ever did see this, he and his lackeys would find the way to "orate" their way around it, to explain that black is really white and white is really black. That explaining away should be troubling to his followers, but he's got them, so it won't be. All but a few will buy into whatever he says.
And, this is a thing amongst humans who somehow totally buy into a philosophy which they believe provides all the answers. We've seen it time and again from a religious standpoint, and most recently from political and medical standpoints as well. Sometimes two or three of these standpoints become combined, and the intensity and consequences exponentially increase, as in the case of radical Islamic types in the Middle East. The very contemporary problem is that this sort of thinking is very much on the rise, and has actually become mainstream in a certain percentage of the population. It is totally irrational. Formerly, we would have spoken of these people as having list their senses, or as being crazy, but when craziness becomes so wide spread, it almost appears mainstream. It all starts when people are conditioned not to trust anyone but their strongman. Don't trust institutions, don't trust information, except for what is approved by the strong man. Be proud of the fact that you are right, Sooner or later, everyone else will see this and your so-called craziness will be vindicated. And, this can happen once EVERYONE has gone crazy, or the craziness has been imposed upon everyone by authoritarian leadership.
Because of this, it would be very illogical to assume that the members or leaders of RCG would ever rise up, and allow common sense, fact checking, or logic to repudiate Dave Pack. Anyone who was so-inclined has already had years to do this, has passed, and is hell bent on the unhappy ending which will ultimately seize them.
I listened to a guy named Ed Dowd who was an investment counselor at Black Rock, talk about data and statistic and numbers relating to the jab. But he said when he was working in the financial industry when they would discover fraud was taking place in a corporation that the people involved wouldn't say- haha you caught me! They double down until it was proven that they were cheating or whatever stealing etc. So I feel like Dave's organization is sort of run like a business and even has the business office in place. That's why the fraud keeps going and is not or will not be bought under control until it's proven that the farce is real and that all his people have been duped.
Accuse your enemy of what you are doing as you are doing it to create confusion. Karl Marx. Here's one by Arthur Schopenhauer. If you have reason to suspect that a person is telling you a lie, look as though you believed every word he said. This will give him courage to go on, he will become vehement in his assertions and in the end he will betray himself.
Perhaps one of the reasons Pack and Thiel keep running on and on is because of two guys. A Gary and a Dennis. Why? Well, they are providing the proof to Pack and Thiel that they are being persecuted. And, probably to their followers also. So, one can’t be wrong if they are constantly, and, daily persecuted. Thanks a lot Gary and Dennis.
Before finding this site I barely heard of Pack and Thiel, much less of Leonard and Diehl.
I don't know about that 3:29. When I first began making comments on sites which confronted Armstrongism back in the early 2,000's, I would never have guessed that any of what we see or read here would still be ongoing. We've exposed quite a bit about the Armstrong movement during the past 20 years, and in spite of the old guard dying off, the continued failure of "within the next 3-5 years", new splinters, the fade out of some of the old ones, the growing cartoonishness of certain leaders (if you could call them that), what has become so painfully obvious to the movement through the new insights provided by the mapping of the human genome, our national political turmoil, and the increasing devastations caused by climate change, the Armstrong movement still exists in a stagnant sort of limbo. It has contracted, no doubt about it. If one relied upon the media, one would not even be able to detect that any of the ACOGs even existed. This site is the only way I know that any of them have any activity whatsoever. They are just that invisible!
What is the street buzz at ground zero, in the local congregations and headquarters? Is there any real zest or zeal? Or has it simply become a social club with most members phoning it in? I've seen no evidence of any of them being all fired up and coming in hot. If we here have in some perverse way, given these guys a sense of purpose or cause which motivates them, first, that's bogus, because they should be getting their motovations from God if they are who they believe they are. And, secondly, they should be thanking us for the little buzz that actually provides. It seems our "persecution" may be providing whatever meager rationale they have for their existence at this point in time. I mean, just as the world appears to be coming apart, nothing? That is not what we were taught to expect, once again, if we were who we believed we were!
Well I was on the internet doing something else and then pops a picture of her Armstrong and someone saying let me explain to you how the apostasy happened. I thought it was going to be a little brochure or something, turns to be a whole giant box of books. Well I got it I said okay this guy's telling the truth he knows we're talking about and I'll see what he's doing and I got hooked so stupid of me I didn't do any more research and I should have if I had of, oh well who knows what would have been we all get to the place where we understand that we don't and then you can't blame anybody yourself. I was hornswoggled!? But I know better now, hurrah :-)
Glad you're out, 6:43. Nice that you have the rest of your life to live freely! Others never realize.
Surely, there must come a time when Dave's members are no longer just deceived members of some snake oil salesman. When a mountain of evidence contradicts the fraudster's claims, the victims must bare moral responsibility for accepting the lies, and not walking away from their spiritual/moral gas chamber.
It is crazy to think it has been going on for seven years and continues into the eighth now. Dennis had that Nebuchadnezzar 7-year-wild-beast thought long ago.
Pack and Flurry both prove that no matter how much abuse and biblical fraud is committed by the church leader, most members will stick. Some will trickle out. Some will trickle in.
No amount of exposure on the internet will stop men like this. Then, why keep shining the light? Because the precious few who see and WANT to see will come ashore before the ship crashes. Those precious few are worth helping.
God will deal with Pack and Flurry.
I do not follow or read the material on this blog about this Millerite preacher. I picked up some of the details by osmosis, mostly from headlines, but really have no interest in what's happening as regards its theological content. I get the impression, standing at distance, that we have the pulpit making repeated wild claims and the pews following along believingly.
When you exclude the melodramatic detail, the problem can be recognized as a common one. It has happened in various sects and denominations and political parties. It is the problem of why people continue to believe what they believe even in the face of genuine contravening evidence. Why do Young Earth Creationists cast aside the findings of geology and archaeology? Why do people believe that it takes some special inspiration to say that Jesus is going to return next Friday? Anybody can say that, and they might be right. But it's a long shot. Is it certain that there are no predecessor events?
Some people tend to believe what supports their subjectivity not what supports reality. Because to most people, being ego centric, their own subjectivity is more important than reality. So, we have huge number of people in the USA believing groundlessly that the last election was a landslide and was stolen. And we think the solution is easy. We show them the facts and they say, "Oh, never mind." But that has not happened and it will not happen. Because in their lives subjectivity has far more gravitas than reality. And there is nothing you can do about it. Truth is not the antidote for cherished but misguided subjectivity.
Some might be rescued. It's possible. Maybe. Some can get a grip and some can't. Don't hold your breath. Remember the bodies bloating in the sun at Jonestown.
I suspect one of the main reasons for so many sticking to Pack and Thiel is the simple fact there is no alternative for them on the horizon.
I have crossed both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans and back. Most of the time I went on deck there were no other ships in sight. On the ships I traveled on there were many lifeboats. We even had drills to get to them in case our ship started to sink.
When one looks at the Pack and Thiel “ships” there are no drills or lifeboats to run to. And, sadly there are no good ships on the horizon to signal for help. Not even here. For instance, I haven’t lost my faith at all, but after looking hard and far I cannot find a single ship out there to grasp on to as a lifeboat. The splinters are basically pablum with very little substance
And, this site offers no alternative either. It does offer interesting insight though as to how the minds of the critics and disappointed work. People who once were so secure in their beliefs now work to destroy those old beliefs that were, in my opinion, never fully proved in the first place. So, were easy to dump.
There is a better way.
Anon621,
The street buzz is that the sermons are uninspiring. It is a social club in many respects. People don't generally talk about their faith except whether or not their kids or perhaps someone in their congregation will "stay with the Truth". The angst makes them feel good about the depth of their belief.
Much effort and thought are given to how they can keep the youth attending. That substitutes for Christian dialogue.
Anyway, as always, the focus is all future based without mention of the Holy Spirit working in our lives now and Christ having redeemed us now. So, in the long-term future it is the Millennium and in the shorter-term future it is focusing on keeping the kids in the church organization so they can look towards the future.
DP: the poster man-child of "strong delusion" - 2 Thess 2:11??
Will he really deal with Flurry and pack though?
Honestly God seems kind of uninterested in the COG. HWA was a successful fluke right place right time for a fear based prophetic cult.
Then, look at the breaking of WCG. Has God blessed any of these groups? Are any healing the sick, raising the dead, giving to those in need?
Catholicism and protestantism seem to be more favored by the divine if you look at numbers and longevity.
If God allows in Christendom all the evil to flourish across groups and doesn’t directly get involved in those sheparding his sheep, is he a good God? Is he there at all?
We get critiqued here for not offering religious alternatives to Armstrongism, although some have presented atheism and agnosticism as solutions. When some have shared their new, non-Armstrong- based religious beliefs, they get accused of wanting to be our new guru. These sorts of accusations and counter-accusations lead me to believe that it's up to each of us as individuals to find our own solutions, and to keep them private and personal. It gets unpleasant otherwise.
As a general rule, ABA (anything but Armstrongism) is the way most of us roll. I mean, it was so bad, that it really can't be reformed. I guess the doctrines could be practiced by a single individual in the privacy of his home, but the minute you attempt to organize a group based upon it, it corrupts the spirit of the person who aspires to be leader, and he ends up stifling the spiritual growth of those who follow him. This has been proven any time it has been attempted.
"is he there at all."
Since you failed to use capital letters when mentioning God, you obviously don't believe He exists. This question is easy to understand if one accepts that God is a God of self responsibility and not a micromanager. Churches try to justify their intrusive, lording ways ways by misrepresenting God as a helicopter God, which He is not. Rather He honors that humans are made in His mental image.
Anon 3:10 how long has politics warped you ?
You sure GOD is a he? How do you know that? I think you just believe it.
I'm a she and I'm so thankful God is not she because I know my sex and we have certain limitations. I'm thankful that my father and my husband are the leaders and even though I have my opinions that are considered I don't have to wonder about who's the boss. Of course that tells my age I'm not a modern feminazzi. And the God of my Bible isn't one either.
dave pack should have gone into politics
he missed his calling
he could have done more harm to the country than biden
satan is very disappointed in dave
Of course God is a he. He said so.
Feminazzi are giving nazzis a bad name. We should start calling them femicommies.
Well, prior to pronouns becoming so important, Armstrongism insisted on assigning the wrong pronouns to the Holy Spirit.
Anonymous 2:46:00 said...
I'm a she and I'm so thankful God is not she because I know my sex and we have certain limitations......
Surely God is neither He nor She. It would seem that its only on the physical level that gender comes into things.
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