“Ezra Reads the Law”
from the Third Century Dura-Europos synagogue (Fair Use)
A Brief Look at Source Criticism and the Pentateuch
With a Review of the Armstrongist Counterpoint
By Scout
“This book is not merely written for children. Adults by multiple thousands followed the installments avidly when they first appeared in "The Plain Truth". Adults will gain an understanding of the WHOLE BIBLE — of its continuous story thread — from this book.” – Herbert W. Armstrong, Introduction to Volume 1 of The Bible Story
When I was in college, one of the guys in the dorm got an anonymous poison pen letter from his hometown. There was no signature but he deduced who had sent it. It was an old girlfriend with whom he had had a falling out. The content could have come from a number of people but the language usage was a giveaway. The letter contained locutions that only his old girlfriend was known to use. And the current circumstance of their relationship made the letter a fit. So, she had in effect signed the letter but didn’t know it.
Analyzing ancient documents resembles the process my dorm buddy went through. The Torah, for instance, is full of clues that can be mined for a fuller picture of its history. Source Criticism capitalizes on this and unpacks the Torah in a disciplined way. Everyone who reads the Bible seriously should know something about Source Criticism and its findings.
Source Criticism in a Nutshell
Source criticism is an analytical methodology that advances the idea that the Hebrew scriptures are a discernable composite of texts from several different sources. The texts were under the curation of several different groups but in later history were edited to form the canon of the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible). It is thought by some that the editor was Ezra assisted by his scribes. This multi-source idea was made popular by a German Biblical scholar named Julius Wellhausen near the end of the Nineteenth Century. It now exists in several updated versions. I will refer here to the version developed by Jewish theologian Richard E. Friedman.
Friedman’s sources include the Yahwists (J), Elohist (E), Priestly (P) and Deuteronomist (D). He also identifies contributions to the composite scriptures by the Redactor (R). It is important to recognize that Source Criticism is not the simplistic idea that different terms for God are used to hypothesize different contributors of texts to the scriptures. It is far more complicated than that and is supported in a number of different ways, internal and external to the Tanakh, that verify each other. I will not try to replicate the numerous arguments that support the methodology. These are well documented and accessible. I have included some works by Friedman in the References below. And I assure you that Source Criticism is something you cannot easily dismiss.
As an example of why these sources are each cohesive, I will give a short profile of the Yahwist source. The Yahwist text in the Tanakh is the earliest prose writing (poetic writing has a longer history) made by mankind. God is referred to as Yahweh. The Yahwist writing dates to 950 BCE and is associated with the Davidic and Solomonic Monarchies. The Hebrew language used in the Yahwist passages pre-dates the language of the other sources. Yahwists bring certain accounts to the Bible that the other sources do not. On the other hand, the Yahwist texts recount many events which will seem like redundancy to the reader because they are repeated by the later Elohist texts. These repetitions are called “doublets.” Only the Yahwists use Yahweh in these doublets to refer to God rather than the Elohim of the Elohists. Yawhists seem pre-occupied with dramatic story-telling, portraying God as anthropomorphic, dialogs between men and God, and the history and status of the Tribe of Judah. And further, there are other well-documented attributes of Yahwist writing that I will not attempt to characterize here.
I am not asserting that Source Criticism perfectly explains everything we see in the Torah. You can find passages that seem to defy classification. Sometimes the term “Yahweh Elohim” is used. These infrequent one-offs do not overturn the broad premise. I do believe Source Criticism presents us with an accumulation of credible evidence that is persuasive.
The Armstrongist View on the Authorship of the Torah
The Armstrongist view is that the five books of the Pentateuch were written by Moses. This is a traditional view, also widely held among evangelicals. Ronald L. Dart wrote an article, published by the Worldwide Church of God, titled “Who Wrote the Law?” that asserts that the Pentateuch was written by Moses. The article was written in 1971 and is somewhat dated. It does not engage, for instance, the findings of Richard E. Friedman that support multiple sources.
Dart instead argues against conclusions on this topic drawn by scholars back in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. Dart is concerned with countering the idea that the Torah was an evolutionary development and also pointing out that some scholars have incorrectly concluded that the Torah dates from the reign of Josiah simply because a copy of the Torah was discovered then. Otherwise, Dart seems to argue plausibility. Moses was literate and educated. Why would we assume he could not write the Torah? Finally, Dart states, “And so in conclusion, everything in the Pentateuch is as it should be for Moses to be the author.” In fact, the arguments of Source Criticism show that everything is not as it should be for Moses to be the single author.
Jesus as the Ultimate Source
If the Torah is a composite of texts from different sources, each with a separate curational history, how can it be trusted to be accurate? The cleanest model, for those who idealize inerrancy, is Moses, acting as merely a bio-mechanical hand, writing the whole Torah at the inspiration of God. This is the best route to certainty (as opposed to faith).
Dart writes, “Once we admit the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, it becomes impossible to deny the divine origin of the Law.” Dart does not explain why single authorship is more likely to be inspired than multiple authorship. A plausible observation is that single authorship would be appealing to those who support a hierarchical, autocratic form of church governance. Single authorship beats the drum for the idea that God would always work through one chosen man who is the anointed leader. A collegial approach would then be precluded. This political view overlooks the fact that the Tanakh as a whole is the collegial product of different authors in different time periods.
For most Christians, the need to have an unassailable version of the Torah is a non-issue because of Jesus. When Jesus came to us, he did not start a project of purging the composite and humanly curated Tanakh. He did not concern himself with who really killed Goliath or why light appeared before there were any celestial bodies. As Miller Jones stated, “Christ did not dispute the understanding of the religious leaders of his day that Moses had authored the Torah, and that its terms were binding on humanity.” I don’t think Jesus gave the Torah a waiver because he believed it to be perfect. Read Jeremiah 8:8 in some other translation besides the KJV. The KJV fumbles it.
Jesus did observe the behavioral standards of the Torah perfectly. And he knew what constituted perfect law keeping because he inspired Version 1.0 of the Law and there was also an extant Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus also noted that, “The Law and the Prophets were until John came”. Thereafter, the era of the Gospel began. And in this era, Jesus revealed himself as the Word of God. His living example became our new behavioral standard. Hence, the Old Testament, encrusted with human fingerprints, remained a valuable document. But it had only a subordinate and contributory status when compared to the example of Christ. So, in a sense, Jesus did rectify and purge the Torah. But it was not a writing project with droves of scribes. Jesus did it by the testimony of his personal spiritual walk under the New Covenant.
Armstrongism and the Pitfall of a Non-wholistic View of Scripture
If you are not a cherry-picker of scriptures, the composite nature of the Old Testament will turn you into one if you are not careful. Because the Torah is a compilation of texts from different sources, this pitfall for interpretation is present. If one cites a passage that came, for instance from the Yahwists, that passage is going to reflect naturally the single view point associated with the Yahwists and not scripture as a whole necessarily. Even though the passage may be legitimate scripture, it may need to be tempered by other scriptures from other sources. A case study of this problem is found in Basil Wolverton’s “The Bible Story.”
While I found Wolverton’s writing to be absorbing years ago, it was heavily skewed in the direction of what theologians call Deuteronomist History. The Deuteronomists are only one of the sources for the Torah. I have listed below the content of Wolverton’s volumes and beneath that the books of the Deuteronomist History. The correspondence is clear.
Wolverton’s Bible Story:
Volume 1: Genesis, Concerning Moses
Volume 2: Concerning Moses
Volume 3: Judges, Joshua
Volume 4: Samuel
Volume 5: Samuel, Kings, Chronicles
Volume 6: Kings, Chronicles
Deuteronomist History:
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Samuel
Kings
Why does this make a difference? First, this is not a contrived collection of books from the Hebrew scriptures. It follows the natural chronological order of Biblical events. But it nevertheless represents the viewpoint of a single source. The Deuteronomist History portrays God in a certain way. It supports transactional relationships, law and hierarchy. In particular, the Christian doctrine of grace has no place in this model (John 1:17, “The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”). To the point, the Deuteronomist History portrays a transactional God. The transactional model follows the logic of “If X, then Y.” The two principal transactions are: “If you obey the law, then you will be blessed” and “If you disobey the law, then you will be punished.” The Bible Story prominently portrayed this narrow theological view with its absence of grace. I doubt that the portrayal was calculated but was rather done with good intentions. The good intentions were just overtaken by the multi-source nature of the scripture. But Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA) seemed to draft off of the Deuteronomist viewpoint, in my opinion as a former WCG lay-member, in his leadership style and in the formation of the denominational governance within the WCG.
Friedman and other scholars believe that the Deuteronomists were Levites. The Deuteronomist History seems to represent the interests of the Levitical Priesthood. Moses entrusted the book that he wrote to the Levites and told them to keep it with the Ark. It is my personal belief that the book that Moses wrote was merged into the Pentateuch along with other source material by Jewish editors. Moses’ book is embedded in the Pentateuch but does not constitute the whole of the five books. This view accommodates the verifiable presence of discrete sources in the Pentateuch and also the “book” mentioned in Deuteronomy 31:24-26.
The problem is that the Deuteronomist History gives an incomplete picture of God and his relationships with people. It must be completed and tempered by other books of the Tanakh and the New Testament. For instance, in the Book of Job you will find a contention over whether or not God is merely transactional. Job’s “friends” expressed the Deuteronomist viewpoint. Their repeated and lengthy assertion was that Job must be suffering because he had been disobedient. This view is purely Deuteronomist. Job’s persistent counterpoint was that he had not been disobedient. In the end, God said of Job’s Deuteronomist friends, “After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: ‘My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.’” At this point, the Deuteronomist view as the sole model of God collapses.
The publication by the WCG of Wolverton’s Bible Story was much more than a retelling of some events from the Bible as juvenile literature in service to church families. It resulted in the implantation in the minds of readers of a particular viewpoint that also formed a leitmotif in Armstrongism. Whether planned or unintentional, it came about from basing a view of God on passages that came from a single ancient source. It is like the lesson of the blind men who feel different parts of the elephant and come away with widely varying descriptions. The Bible must be considered as a whole with the Gospel at the center. This is the over-arching hermeneutic. In the book “Four Views of Hell”, Robin Parry stated, “Is there a guide to help us interpret in theologically sensitive ways? Yes. The church has always recognized that the gospel narrative of the triune God manifest in Christ’s incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and return must be at the core of the interpretation of scripture.”
HWA was always an advocate of collecting all the scriptures together on a given topic in order to understand the topic. It is ironic that the WCG fell victim to the pitfall of being non-wholistic through focusing on texts from a single underlying source in The Bible Story.
Summary Argument
Source Criticism leads to the understanding that the Pentateuch is a composite of texts from many different ancient sources. Jewish scribes redacted these sources to form the canonical books. For those who believe for some reason that single authorship equates to inspiration, this collegial approach is an issue. It was not an issue for Jesus. Jesus did not launch a literary revision of the Tanakh to remove its unevenness during his earthly ministry. Instead, he cured the problem in that he himself was the Word of God among us in living action (Hebrews 1:1-2). He did not edit; he exemplified in both word and deed. And what he exemplified was what Paul called the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2). The Law of Christ stands on the shoulders of the Torah but is a new rendition – with a better covenant and better promises (Hebrews 8:6).
References
If you resonate with this topic, a good place to get a better introduction is to listen to the Peter Enns interview with Richard E. Friedman cited below. For a useful overview, Wikipedia contains a number of articles related to Source Criticism that I have not cited here.
Dart, Ronald L. “Who Wrote the Law?” in Tomorrow’s World magazine, January, 1971.
Friedman, Richard E. “The Bible with Sources Revealed,” HarperOne, 2005.
Friedman, Richard E. “Who Wrote the Bible,” Simon and Schuster, 2019.
Friedman, Richard E. “Who Wrote the Pentateuch?” an interview on The Bible for Normal People podcast, Peter Enns Interviewer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQpJI1gr3ww
Jones, Miller. “The Authorship of the Torah and Its Implications for the Work of Jesus Christ,” from the “God Cannot be Contained!” website.
28 comments:
Scout wrote:
"Friedman’s sources include the Yahwists (J), Elohist (E), Priestly (P) and Deuteronomist (D). He also identifies contributions to the composite scriptures by the Redactor (R). "
In the four-year Bible/church history/Christian ethics course I facilitate, the year 1 people studying Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament, highlight their Bibles with different colors for the J,E,P and D sources. Unlike in Armstrongism where we were taught that single authors scribed the books, by highlighting the sources, it is like a crazy quilt being pieced together to form one cohesive quilt. Sometimes beautiful and other times wild beyond belief.
Thoughtful write-up!
I have been amazed for years that Job is a counterpoint to Deuteronomy. Bottom line is that we need to read the whole book, not just the parts we like.
NO2HWA
Friedman's book titled "The Bible with Sources Revealed" is the Old Testament done in colored fonts to match the sources. It is remarkable to look at. The Wikipedia article titled "Documentary Hypothesis" has a graphic that shows the color-coded sources for the first four books of the Pentateuch.
One wonders why there was a fragmentation of this material in the first place. I have a theory that the Law that came down from Sinai through Moses was fairly monolithic and was curated by the Priesthood. But around this core of law, there was a decentralized "wrapper" of history, anthropology and culture. And the wrapper, I think, is decentralized and fragmentary because it is the actual testimony of a variety of witnesses.
I think the genius of Ezra and his scribes was that they created a flow for these varied texts but they did not delete the duplication in this merger or attempt to homogenize the final product. Instead of a politically correct consensus version, they captured viewpoint. So, when a person reads the Tanakh, the reader steps into a room full of witnesses. The reader gets to hear all the voices rather than the single voice of a carefully crafted and prepared political statement. Ezra's approach requires a mature reader who is not discouraged by nuance.
Some people want a centralized book with any unevenness edited out of it.
I consider that a personality issue rather than a spiritual necessity.
My opinion ...
Scout
We can only speculate who wrote the O.T. and the N.T.. No one knows but many think scripture is inspired by God. Am I missing something? or does it seem odd that we assume a book is inspired God when we don't even know what humans wrote the scriptures!
Anon 736
I don't think it matters WHO actually wrote the OT and NT for them to be inspired by God. We all know God often uses human instruments to carry out His will.
What is amazing to me is the finished product, the book we have and hold today. The Bible (any version) is very readable, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, understandable. To paraphrase Miller Jone's simple declaration from his personal blog, "the scriptures have a logical beginning and ending, they tell a story, and the narrative makes sense".
For the learned and unlearned alike, the scriptures "are profitable , and able to make one wise unto salvation through faith which in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim 3:15-16).
BP8 2:45 wrote, "I don't think it matters WHO actually wrote the OT and NT for them to be inspired by God."
I agree with you on this. One of the most beautiful pieces of writing I have ever read in the Bible is the first chapter of Ephesians. I don't think it could have been written without the direction of the Holy Spirit.
But Bible scholars cite a number reasons why Paul could not have written it. For example, it uses 91 vocabulary words that Paul never used elsewhere in his epistles. And the sentences are longer and more convoluted than what Paul was known to write.
The theory is that it was written by one of his students who was thoroughly steeped in Paul's theology. It comes to us as an anonymous letter to the Ephesian Christians. The theory seems highly plausible to me.
Scout
No. Eph 1:1.
Most of the "brethren" would have considered the very act of deconstructing and evaluating the texts to be presumptuous at best, and profane or blasphemous at worst. The KJV was regarded as being perfect, except for the few "mistranslations" pointed out by HWA.
Scout 413
I have not explored that theory, but judging from the content it is given in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia there seems to be something to it. About half of the article on "Ephesians" centers on authenticity, origin and purpose. Even Bullinger, although he maintains Paul's authorship, acknowledges major shifts in content and style between Romans (the Gospel of God) and Ephesians (the Mystery of God).
Even you and I have sparred over the strange and unique wording of Ephesians 2:15, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances", especially when Paul in his other epistles freely uses different terminology (the law, law of God, law of Moses, law of Christ). Is there something to this abrupt change, or is the writer talking about something altogether different?
Perhaps Paul wrote Ephesians or someone else did. Or maybe he dictated it to a student who wrote it down in his own words and style. Either way, the power of the Holy spirit comes through. God's word stands!
Anonymous 8:53
Life is more complicated than most of us would like. The idea of anonymity is not based on whether there is a declarative statement that ascribes the writing to Paul as we have in Ephesians 1:1. The assertion of anonymity is based on the observed differences in writing style in comparison to other letters of Paul. To some this casts doubt on the authorship in spite of the claims of verse 1.
So, how can the epistle bear Paul’s name yet depart from his writing style? A theory that I believe is plausible is that Paul had one or more scribal secretaries because he himself could not see well. They wrote up the material, not actually a direct dictation, but based on discussion and attributed it to Paul because Paul is the source of the ideas. My guess is that after they wrote it up, it was reviewed by Paul before it was circulated. After review and Paul’s imprimatur, it became Paul’s.
My point is, Paul did not have to do the actual writing for the epistle to be valid. The Holy Spirit could have been working in both Paul and his scribal secretary. So, Ephesians becomes a collegial composition. It is validly Paul’s intellectual content. But an amanuensis made a significant rhetorical contribution to it. I would guess that the beautiful language of the first chapter of Ephesians is the eloquence of Paul’s scribe. But the ideas eloquently expressed are Pauline. People who live inside autocratic religious systems would balk at the idea of a collegial production. They want the simple world of a one man show.
Peter seemed to have the operational charge of the church. But Paul wrote the bulk of the New Testament. John of Patmos wrote almost all the prophecy in the New Testament. There are four Gospels, not one. Paul preached the Gospel to the Gentiles before getting the approval of the leaders in Jerusalem. Autocrats have an emotional breakdown over stuff like that.
Scout
Scout,
As always, this is a well-written treatise on the authorship of Scripture. For Fundamentalists like Herb, the Bible has to flawless, completely transparent, and devoid of human subjectivity or prejudice. This is what makes their arguments so vulnerable to the attacks of atheists, textual scholars, and scientists. They simply cannot come to terms with the fact that GOD CHOSE to make Scripture a JOINT project - between himself and humanity. HIS CHOICE, NOT mine or yours! Many of us demand an authoritative, literal, and plain text. The reasoning goes something like this: God is the REAL author, the humans were just scribes, and God is not the author of confusion.
Unfortunately, this perspective robs the Bible of so much of its power, beauty, complexity, and meaning. I believe it stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the way inspiration works. We humans can act under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and still make mistakes! God's inspiration is perfect, but the way that each of us yields to the Spirit's inspiration is very uneven and imperfect. We can and do, even unintentionally, sometimes resist the guidance/leadership of God's Spirit. God is flawless, but we are NOT!
I believe the statement that Scripture is inspired and is profitable for our spiritual correction and growth. I also agree with you that it is IMPERATIVE that Christians view and interpret the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus the Christ/Messiah. He and his disciples clearly believed that the Law, Prophets, and Writings pointed to HIM - found their fulfillment in HIM! This, of course, demands a whole Scripture approach. Scripture must also be interpreted/understood within its own context, perspective, and by employing the weight of the evidence it provides on any given subject. This is exactly why proof-texting and cherry-picking has led to so many heretical beliefs and prophetic failures!
Thanks,
Lonnie/Miller
People are arguing about Paul writing the Ephesians epistle. Maybe it’s just a case of somebody lying.
Personally, I have a theory regarding Mark and Peter. Supposedly, they were close. Also, there’s a tradition that Peter was really to credit for Mark’s Gospel. So, perhaps Mark took down Peter’s story, but butchered it. It would explain where he writes a silly little anecdote about the young guy dropping his cloak. Also, perhaps Mark was in responsible for Peter’s epistles. Being obviously willing to embellish, perhaps that explains the line in 2 Peter suggesting Paul wrote “scripture.” Sometimes I make a joke to Armstrongists about how they should consider Mystery of the Ages scripture. Perhaps Mark, rather, wanted to endear himself to Paul. Or perhaps he expected reciprocity, with Paul declaring what he and Peter were doing to be scripture as well. Or maybe just figured it would bleed out to cover what he and Peter were doing.
If God wrote it, he’d make it clear and perfect and undeniable. Otherwise, we can’t trust it. If he wrote it, but failed to verify it, we have every right to disregard it. In any case, the “Best Evidence” rule would hold that you don’t use a deposition when the witness is available. If God wants me to know something with divine certainty, he’s gotta come to me and tell me.
Lee,
Folks have employed pen names throughout the history of the written word. There are a number of possibilities and/or justifications for doing so. Maybe a disciple, maybe someone employing a name to ensure that it has an audience, or maybe, like me, they understood that their own name would hurt certain individuals and/or stir up dissension and controversy (I eventually decided to reveal my identity - hence, the double moniker).
As for Paul's "authentic" writings and those "falsely" attributed to him, several of both kinds of writings openly state or imply that Paul employed a secretary in composing them. This could also account for different writing styles, vocabulary, phraseology, etc.
Once again, you are not alone in your demand for absolute authority, certainty, clarity, and perfection. The reality is that human communication and language is a very complex and imperfect method of transmitting information and ideas, and God chose to involve humans in the process. Sure, he could have handed us everything on a silver platter, but I suspect that that wouldn't have improved our collective ability to receive/interpret the message. And, as I have stated many times before, as a teacher, I can discern wisdom in making your students active participants in the learning process - in the telling of the story. There is, after all, value in making sure that everyone has a personal investment in the story.
“[H]uman communication and language is a very complex and imperfect method of transmitting information and ideas…”
In that case, I cannot treat what you were calling here “human communication” as a message from a perfect God. Divine scripture is something that you would have to kill or be killed for regardless of the circumstance and regardless of what your mind or heart tells you. You cannot conscientiously object to God. So you better be absolutely sure beyond absolutely sure before you adopt or impose an old written doctrine or dogma as divine. And the truth is, one simply cannot be.
God gave me and every other human the intelligence — sentience? — to examine and judge. We do that with literally every other piece of information we receive. But we would be for bidden to do that with something coming from God. Almost like something coming from Herbert Armstrong! L O L
I had a similar discussion with a Christian on TruthSocial. I talked to him along the lines of the Best Evidence rule. God cannot expect perfect obedience to an imperfect message. I’ll tell you what I ended up telling him about this sort of thing: I may not be right about some of this, but I can’t be wrong. An honest God will take my side.
Hey, I was a total believer. Then one day I faced situation that could change my life irrevocably, depending on understanding the Bible. If I thought I understood, I would take a resultant action that could never really be changed. If I took the action, and five minutes later, found out, I was wrong, it would be too late. I realized that I could never be that sure. Only direct divine communication — and how I would ask the Almighty for his ID, I don’t know, but I would have to — can hold that kind of authority.
Come up with all the philosophical reasons you want, the most likely truth is that humans wrote this stuff and made mistakes.
Lee Walker:
From the book by Peter Enns titled "The Sin of Certainty: Why God Desires Our Trust More Than Our "Correct" Beliefs":
Job’s friends were technically right if you're going by the book. They had every reason to feel certain about why Job was suffering. But God says they are wrong.
Job and his friends were operating under the same assumption that God wants humans to know, and indeed has made known, the basic pattern of reality—that is, what God expects from them and the basic rules for living. Job never denies this way of thinking, which is precisely what causes him so much distress—he can’t square his suffering with his “biblical” view of how God works.
So here is another book of the Bible that tells us to let go of the need to know – better, the expectation that we CAN know the inner workings of God. However sure and true we think our thoughts about God might be, struggling with God in the here and now may never be far away, challenging what we “know’—even if that knowledge comes straight out the Bible, chapter and verse.
When we come to our own Job-like moments, the way forward isn't to expect God to give us some additional piece of information to make everything fall into place. The answer that people like Job and his friends want—because they've got to “know what they believe” —is precisely the answer God keeps hidden. No special bit of knowledge for you.
Rather, God exposes the limitations of our thinking. Then we can see the inevitability to letting go of the need to know and trust God instead—as best as we can each moment—because God is God.
Trust like this is an affront to reason, the control our egos crave. Which is precisely the point. Trust does not work because we have captured God in our minds. It works regardless of the fact that, at the end of the day, we finally learn that we can’t.
Scout
Then wherefore Bible? That is, beyond culture and heritage?
If you believe it, then you have to believe it. You can’t pick and choose what you like or don’t like. It’s like how some of the more reformed Armstrongists as a matter of faith tout and quote the man, but then when they find a mistake (or just something a little too un-PC), they think they can depart from his words, but still hold and use him as faith-authoritative. Most people who come here would easily point that problem out. The same goes with Bible.
In terms of culture and heritage, including Civil Deism, Bible is what it is. In terms of one’s relationship with the Creator and Judge of the Universe, the imperfections you and others talk about — and in previous conversations you have acknowledged believing that there are flat-out errors in the book — nullifies it as anything nuch more than a way of phrasing our prayers and discussions.
Which actually brings us back to culture and heritage. But that’s another topic.
Lee,
You can accept or reject the Bible - that's up to you. I understand how the Bible was written, and I accept it the way that God designed it to be. I'm OK with the human fingerprints that I discern all over it, but I can see the Divine fingerprints as well. If you can't, you can't. The "all or nothing" thing is yours and Herbie's axiom - I don't buy it (and I don't have to buy it).
Lee Walker wrote, “God cannot expect perfect obedience to an imperfect message.”
I can appreciate the issues that you are raising. But if I might speak to your assumptions. There is no “perfect obedience” and there is no perfect message. If you had a perfect message, with your understanding of it certified by the heavens, you would not be able to conform to it and it would mean nothing as a pathway to salvation. The idea of human perfection that qualifies you for salvation is just an Armstrongist trope.
God let his children tell the story. That is why the message is not perfect. But this points to a deeper principle. Your understanding of the Bible, like the understanding of everyone else, is an interpretation. HWA’s understanding of the Bible is an interpretation. We impart meaning based on our experience and inclinations to the word messages that we receive. No two Christians or Armstrongists have exactly the same interpretation of the Bible. That everyone should have precisely the same beliefs is a mythology that afflicts the unrealistic.
Jesus had the perfect understanding of the scriptures. Consider that as a point on a graph. The various Christian interpretations cluster around that ideal point. None coincide with it perfectly because we are not Jesus. Armstrongism is a part of a cluster around a different point, perhaps a quadrant away, with other Restorationist Movement religions. To give you a sense of this, the “gospel” taught by HWA is utterly different from the Gospel taught by the Christian Movement. To get the principal message that Jesus brought to us wrong is an error of the most fundamental, formative sort.
For Christians, the Holy Spirit active in our lives is what results in a Christian walk. And part of what the Holy Spirit imparts to us is a trust in God. In trust, we walk though we see “through a glass darkly.” Fundamentalists and atheists live in a neurotic world where their expectations for perfection are never met. It is a bleak world of perpetual disenchantment. Nobody is as persistently unhappy and ungratified as a perfectionist.
Scout
Scout, I had a long message and reply written out. Then I accidentally deleted it. Lucky for you.
Remember that discussion we had over those passages in Deuteronomy, and how they made abolishing the Torah impossible? Your buddy there kept emphasizing that you would be held accountable for not doing something that was literally impossible for you to do. He said the Bible demanded “perfection.” Remember what your buddy said.
“Be ye therefore perfect” — that Jesus guy. That indeed is the standard. But then, you can always throw that part out.
All you have here is fluff. If you believe the Bible is divine, obey the Bible as it is. If you believe the Bible is flawed, which you do, then don’t believe the Bible as anything other than a bunch of stories. You’re trying to have it both ways. You will have to answer to God for that contradiction.
“[T]here is no perfect message.” Yet you believe God has sent messages? Nice knowing you.
Btw, if the Bible can be interpreted basically anyway somebody wants to interpret it, then how do you really condemn Herbie for anything other than raping his daughter? Everything else he or somebody made up of justification for. You are no better than him. (And if you don’t condemn him, and yet at the same time don’t do the Armstrongism defender thing, I think you’re in the wrong place.)
Just live what you believe. You don’t need the Bible as anything other than a bunch of stories to do that.
Lee Walker said, "Remember what your buddy said."
I have no idea what you are writing about in this paragraph.
Lee Walker also wrote, "If you believe the Bible is divine, obey the Bible as it is. If you believe the Bible is flawed, which you do, then don’t believe the Bible as anything other than a bunch of stories."
That is just a rule that you made up. Why should it be believed? I believe the Bible contains what we need in spite of human curation.
Lee Walker also wrote, "if the Bible can be interpreted basically anyway somebody wants to interpret it..."
I did not write that. You did not read carefully. I said that every reading of the Bible by a human being is an interpretation. Some interpretations have greater fidelity than others due to the activity of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, there are a cluster of interpretations called Christianity.
You have taken the time-worn atheist approach of trying to claim the Bible should be perfect so that you can find a perceived error and proclaim there is no God. That dog won't hunt. I have already stated why in my previous comments. There is a whole book authored by Peter Enns on this topic.
Scout
Scout and other interested seekers of truth: I receive several emails each week from TheTorah.com, and coincidentally, towards the end of last week, I received one titled "Deuteronomy: Canonizing Interpretation" by Dr. Tamar Kamionkowski. So, in the Jewish community, there is awareness of and interest in source criticism. The article does not rewrite Scout's research, but it may add some additional color, while substantiating the general process involved.
For some time now, I have realized that Jewish scholars have gone much deeper in their understanding of Torah than did Herbert and the boys. I find it very interesting to learn of Jewish perspectives. They may not have found it necessary to involve themselves in the New Covenant, but they could run circles around our understanding of the assorted covenants presented in Torah!
BB
1. Taking you at your word that you don’t remember, several months back, we — you, me, and another fellow, who ran a blog called, “God is not boxed” or something like that — had a discussion on here about OT Law being abolished, and my contention that certain passages in Deuteronomy (4:1-2; 12:32-ch13; 30:1-10) precluded that “interpretation.” I remember you denied being an abrogationist after he had supposedly explained the meaning to you. I am simply trying to jar your memory as to the incident. You also wrote off Deuteronomy 14:21 as a mistake that had gotten put in, citing somebody with some theory about that sort of thing. Anyway, the two of you were on the same side. Maybe you didn’t agree with him, but he went on and on about that “perfect” standard in an effort to discredit or malign Torah. There was more to it, of course. If you don’t remember the incident, then you don’t remember.
2. That “rule” is simply logical. To hold that something is divine has consequences, both benefits and liabilities. Benefits are assuredness, and liabilities are obedience. If the Bible is not divine, then it’s just a collection of human stores — truth and error, sincerity and deception, value and worthlessness. No assuredness, and thus no warranting of obedience. Just everybody making up whatever they want from them, and whatever other sources they may choose to incorporate. Worthless. And thus…
3. You are trying to back away from your accidental statement, or you simply are not coming to your own words. “Some interpretations have greater fidelity than others due to the activity of the Holy Spirit.” Show me your “Holy Spirit detector.” Is it like a geiger counter? Or a computer program you feed an “interpretation” into? Maybe some sort of chemical test? No, it’s just you saying, “I like this idea, so HS is in it to some degree. I don’t like this idea, so there’s not a lot of HS in it, if any. But I love this idea I came up with, so it’s just loaded with HS!” There’s nothing objective there. It’s all intuitive and subjective, and that’s giving it the benefit of the doubt. And thus who is to say that your idea, would you admit does not hold to those writings, is any better than that of a child molester?
You are trying to confuse rejecting the Bible with atheism. For somebody so rejecting of an objective standard, that is very parochial of you. Do you understand that there are other religions? Do you understand that there are people who rejected the Bible, but believe in a “Higher Power” personage? Or are you so… bigoted?… whatever it is… that anybody who does not share the same broad religious base as you can’t believe in a deity? Sikhs, Theravada Buddhists, traditional American Indians, Zoroastrians… None of these categories believe in (a) G/god? I could roll in some kind of PC cultural relativism here, but people know I don’t think that way.
You are just making up your religion as you go along. That is your right. Maybe you believe you are being guided. But the same could be uttered by anybody — including a child-molesting pervert who raped his own daughter. Who are you to judge?
That is a consequence of your line of thinking.
Lee Walker:
You wrote, “Taking you at your word that you don’t remember, several months back, we — you, me, and another fellow, who ran a blog called, “God is not boxed” or something like that…
I have no recollection of what you are talking about. You are referring to Miller Jones and his website “God Cannot be Contained”. That is the only thing about what you have written that I can identify. I cannot remember reading Deuteronomy 14:21 in my recent history. Sorry.
You wrote, “That “rule” is simply logical.”
No, it is a rule you use for interpretation – called a hermeneutic. You have provided nothing to support its applicability to this situation. You categorize the Bible as divine and then deduce that it should be obeyed perfectly. (The sophomoric atheist ploy is then to find some perceived discrepancy and then hoot that there is no God in the Judeo-Christian tradition.) This un-nuanced view overlooks the possibility that the Bible may reflect human curation yet still serve the purpose that God intends.
Your wrote, "You are trying to back away from your accidental statement, or you simply are not coming to your own words. “Some interpretations have greater fidelity than others due to the activity of the Holy Spirit.” Show me your “Holy Spirit detector.”"
I have no idea what “accidental statement” you are talking about. Please try to follow logical discourse. There is a Holy Spirit detector. Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns or figs from thistles?” For instance, any Christian can read what you have written and tell you are not motivated by the Holy Spirit. The standard for evaluation is the consensus understanding developed with the Christian movement in general. Is there an experiment based on the scientific method that will tell you when the Holy Spirit is present? No, science does not do that kind of stuff. The scientific method cannot tell you the difference between a Buddhist and a Shintoist based on the physical evidence available to it.
You wrote, “You are trying to confuse rejecting the Bible with atheism. For somebody so rejecting of an objective standard, that is very parochial of you. Do you understand that there are other religions?”
I don’t know your background. You used a common atheist argument. Given the fact you have not declared yourself and we are dealing in written word, I think you can understand the rationale. It’s not a big deal. Just say you belong to some other theistic religion. You don’t even have to state what it is.
You wrote, “You are just making up your religion as you go along”
Hardly. I am a Trinitarian Christian. What I know I did not originate but learned from the church and its scholars. You can check my beliefs against a Christian systematic theology. Where did you get your religious beliefs? I already pointed out a “rule” that you made up.
Scout
Scout:
1. Yes, that is it. Deut 14:21 shows Torah treating Gentiles and Israelites differently. You didn’t like that, so you said it was one of the mistakes that had gotten into the OT.
2. Saying that God need not be obeyed. Good luck with that one in your Judgment.
3. The accident was giving Armstrong credit. But you prove my point about the “detector” perfectly: “[I]t’s just you saying, ‘I like this idea, so HS is in it to some degree. I don’t like this idea, so there’s not a lot of HS in it, if any. But I love this idea I came up with, so it’s just loaded with HS!’ There’s nothing objective there. It’s all intuitive and subjective, and that’s giving it the benefit of the doubt. And thus who is to say that your idea, would [edit: which] you admit does not hold to those writings, is any better than that of a child molester?”
But you actually go further: “The standard for evaluation is the consensus understanding developed with the Christian movement in general.” You ridiculously accuse me of atheism, when you resort to a Christian humanism. Hilarious.
4. Yes, you admit to making up your religion. You try to claim to be doing it in conjunction with some sort of Christian consensus, but that just means you are doing it in a collective. And what do you do when you disagree with the consensus? That’s right, you make up your own personal religion. So perfect.
5. As for my religious beliefs, I have laid them out before: God exists, because only an Intelligence could create intelligence. God is presumed to be benevolent, because if he’s not, then none of this matters, and thus I seek to be benevolent. I live in the reality in which I live, and thus I respect my duties and responsibilities in whatever circumstance/community. (That is ultimately an act of benevolence.) I will add that guy do believe there most likely is a Devil, based on some weird things that have happened, as well as all the evil we see, but I could be wrong. If I am wrong on that, big deal. It would do the same things either way.
Nothing artificial. Just the one necessary presumption. No dogmas on behavior up, because God has not given any to me. And a point of pertinent academic belief that is really neither here nor there.
Lee and Scout.
The post that generated a lot of controversy between you two was:
Bible Talk . . .Universal Sabbath / July 31, 2024.
Lonnie, multi-part man, and myself also contributed to that one. Look it up!
1. You have me mixed up with someone else.
2. This is flight of fantasy.
3. There is something objective - the changed lives of converted people.
4. There are essentials and non-essentials. I agree with all the essentials.
5. It sounds like to me that you are your god.
You're happy in your religion. I don't want to mess with it. I don't understand what your purpose is in your being here. It can't be missionary work - nobody's interested in your religion. I won't be responding to this anymore.
Bye.
Scout
"I don't understand what your purpose is in your being here."
I think you hit on it. He's mentioned his own blog from time to time, so maybe getting his clicks up? We've oft speculated that most of the hits on BT's COGwriter are curious people from here, but nobody joins up with Bob, either. On the other hand, Banned participants do appreciate Marc's blog and Lonnie's.
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