Ehrman's History of the Notion of Heaven and Hell
I had recently been thinking about our varied beliefs about the afterlife and decided to finally read a book that had been given to me as a birthday gift a couple of years ago. The book was Bart Ehrman's Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife. Now, being familiar with some of Bart's other works, I knew that the book would be interesting and well-researched, and I wasn't disappointed. I found much to agree with in the book and a few things to challenge. Some will call this a book review, but I prefer to think of it as an exploration of the parameters and evolution of Judeo-Christian thought regarding the afterlife.
First, I think that it is important to acknowledge that most humans (including those who are not Christian) believe in some kind of continued existence when this life is over. In terms of Western Culture, whether we're talking about Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Jews or Muslims, we find some notion of an afterlife among them all. Hence, it is not at all surprising that we find Christians have similar beliefs about what happens when our present life ends.
Second, as Ehrman points out, it is even more important that we acknowledge the fear which has motivated a great deal of our thinking on this subject. Frankly, it is very unsettling to contemplate the end of our existence - a time when we no longer exist in this world. Moreover, for most of us, it is downright terrifying to contemplate the prospect of being punished for our sins after this life is over. Conversely, even the prospect of being rewarded for our behavior in this life when it is over, can be the source of some anxiety and uncertainty. Will we be reunited with our loved ones? What will we be doing for eternity and will we enjoy it?
Indeed, for Christians, the certainty of death and our fear of it are what motivated Jesus of Nazareth to do what he did for us. In the anonymously written epistle to the Hebrews, we read: "Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying." (Hebrews 2:14-15, NLT) In other words, Christ's sacrifice was meant to address this near universal human fear of our own mortality.
Nevertheless, before we get into what the Judeo-Christian canon of Scripture has to say on the subject, it is essential that we trace the development of Gentile/pagan thought on the subject. Why? Because many of our "Christian" beliefs about the afterlife are rooted in that thinking, NOT in the Bible! Indeed, we will shortly demonstrate that our modern beliefs about the afterlife are more closely aligned with what folks like Plato and Virgil contemplated about them than they are with what Jesus and Paul believed and taught on the subject!
As he skillfully traced the evolution of human thinking on the afterlife, Ehrman wrote: "There were obvious problems with the concept of Hades imagined in the writings of Homer. If everyone has the same fate after death - whether noble or lowly, righteous or wicked, valiant or cowardly - then where is justice? Doesn't this life, in the end, make any sense? Isn't good behavior to be rewarded and evil punished? Won't I get a better hereafter than the brutal tyrant who torture and kills for his own sadistic pleasure, or even that obnoxious fellow who lives across the street?" In other words, these ancient philosophers were grappling with the same kinds of questions which haunt us.
Ehrman continued: "We have seen some hints of what we might call 'differentiated' afterlives even in Homer. Three particularly wicked sinners are punished forever, and a very few individual humans, or semi-humans, related to the gods are rewarded. This differentiation is far more pronounced in Virgil's Aeneid, which portrays fantastic rewards for the upright and horrible punishments for sinners. In the centuries between Homer and Virgil, more than any other thinker and writer, it was Plato who developed the notion of postmortem justice for both the virtuous and the wicked." It is in this very human reasoning that we find the embryo of our own modern notions about heaven and hell!
Like most Christians today, Plato believed that we humans have an immortal soul which departs from our physical bodies at death. For many of us, this "soul" represents our true self. This physical body is merely a temporary abode for the part of us that really makes us a sentient god-like being. Isn't that much at least Scriptural? Yes and no!
In the Old Testament, we read: "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don’t wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7, NLT) In the Gospel of John, we read that Christ became human and tabernacled among us (John 1:14). Likewise, Paul wrote: "For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit." (II Corinthians 5:1-5, NLT) Also, in the second epistle of Peter, we read: "Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. Moreover, I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease." (1:13-15, NKJV)
Thus, in the light of the above passages of Scripture, it is reasonable to conclude that the Bible teaches that humans have a physical body and a spiritual soul. Nevertheless, we still have to answer the question as to whether this spirit component/soul is inherently immortal. What does Scripture reveal about that?
First, we should note that ONLY God has true immortality (I Timothy 1:17, 6:16). The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are also God (Genesis 1:1-2, Job 33:4, Psalm 90:2, 104:30, 139:7, Matthew 28:19, John 1:1-3, 10:30, Hebrews 1:1-13, Revelation 1:8). Like the Father, they are NOT created entities. They have always existed and will always exist. In this respect, they are UNIQUE! EVERYTHING ELSE was/is created - both physical and spiritual! (Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 40:26, Ezekiel 28:13, 15, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:16, and Revelation 4:11) Moreover, as Creator and the Omnipotent One, God is able to destroy or annihilate ANYTHING He has created!
"What about angels and the resurrected saints?" some will demand. Angels apparently have the ability to exist indefinitely. They are, after all, composed of spirit. However, as we have already demonstrated on this blog in previous posts, God has the ability to annihilate angels (including the former covering Cherub now known as Satan the Devil). Indeed, Scripture reveals that that is exactly what God has planned for him and his demons!
Remember, in the book of Isaiah, we read: "How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.’ Instead, you will be brought down to the place of the dead, down to its lowest depths." (Isaiah 14:12-15, NLT) Likewise, in Ezekiel, we read: "You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and exquisite in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone— red carnelian, pale-green peridot, white moonstone, blue-green beryl, onyx, green jasper, blue lapis lazuli, turquoise, and emerald—all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created. I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire...You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So, I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you will exist no more.” (Ezekiel 28:12-19, NLT) Finally, in the book of Revelation, we read: "Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet...Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:10-14, NLT)
"But, what about the soul? Isn't that immortal?" The soul is a created thing. Hence, like the rest of creation, it is subject to annihilation by Almighty God! Still not convinced? Once upon a time, Jesus told his apostles: "Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, NLT) On another occasion, Christ said that it was unwise for his followers to try to hang on to their physical lives, and he asked them: "What do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?" (Mark 8:36, NLT) According to your Savior, you can lose your soul! Paul wrote to the saints at Rome that "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23, NLT) Hence, the soul is NOT immortal.
"How then do Christ's followers become immortal?" Paul explained it to the saints at Rome this way: "Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you." (Romans 8:10-11, NLT) This is completely consistent with what Christ told Nicodemus about being born again. He said: "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life." (John 3:5-6, NLT) In other words, the Holy Spirit (God) makes our soul immortal, and that Divine spark is there the instant that we receive God's Spirit! Christ said: "I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life." (John 5:24, NLT)
Getting back to Ehrman, what is his thesis about Christ's views and teachings about the afterlife? He wrote: "Jesus did not teach that when a person died they would go to heaven or hell. He taught that the Day of Judgment was soon to come, when God would destroy all that is evil and raise the dead, to punish the wicked and reward the faithful by bringing them into his eternal, utopian kingdom." Now, that will come as a surprise to many of my more traditionally minded Christian friends; but it would probably also come as quite a shock to some of my Armstrongist friends. "Where does Lonnie stand on this issue?" I think that Ehrman is right and that most traditional Christians and Armstrongists do NOT really understand the nature of what Jesus believed and taught about the afterlife.
According to the Gospels, Jesus of Nazareth believed in and taught about the resurrection of the dead. In the Synoptic Gospels, there is a story about Christ being confronted by the Sadducees with a question about the concept of a resurrection (Matthew 22:23-30, Mark 12:18-25, Luke 20:27-36). After dealing with their challenge, all three gospel accounts inform us that Christ said something along these lines: "But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead—haven’t you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So, he is the God of the living, not the dead." (Matthew 22:31-32, Mark 12:26-27, Luke 20:37-38, NLT) Even so, there is probably no more succinct statement of Christ's beliefs about the resurrection than one found in the Gospel of John. We read there that Jesus said: "I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man. Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment." (John 5:25-29, NLT)
Moreover, Paul believed and taught the very same thing! In the famous "Resurrection Chapter" of his letter to the saints at Corinth, we read: "But tell me this—since we preach that Christ rose from the dead, why are some of you saying there will be no resurrection of the dead? For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless." (I Corinthians 15:12-14, NLT) Paul then reassured them that their face was well-placed and began to explain exactly how the resurrection will work. He wrote: "But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died. So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back." (I Corinthians 15:20-23, NLT)
Absolutely NOTHING about going to heaven or hell when we die! But where did this notion originate? It is too simplistic to say that we inherited it from Plato and Virgil (although they certainly popularized these notions). No, it is more accurate to say that these notions about punishments and rewards and going to heaven or hell upon death arose from our own flawed human reasoning and sense of justice. "God wouldn't allow us to lose consciousness or have to wait for hundreds or thousands of years after our death - would he?" Continuing with this line of thinking, "God wouldn't simply annihilate sinners and grant eternal life to the righteous, would he? How is that fair and just? Don't murderers, rapists, and child molesters deserve to be tormented? Don't the righteous deserve a paradise with lots of good food, drink, and companionship waiting on the other side? In other words, isn't the Christ - Paul formula just a little bit boring and too easy?" Of course, we could throw a few questions back in the other direction as well. Is it really fair to punish someone for all of eternity for sins spread out over a brief human lifespan?
Now, having said all of that, Scripture does seem to point to some kind of interim state between death and the resurrection. In the book of Ecclesiastes, we quoted a passage which also seems appropriate here: "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don’t wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7, NLT) Likewise, we know that Saul is said to have consulted the ghost of Samuel (I Samuel 28:7-25). We are also informed in the book of Revelation: "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. They shouted to the Lord and said, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?' Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them." (Revelation 6:9-11, NLT) What does this interim state entail? As Scripture is silent on the subject, anything I offered here would be pure speculation.
What's the point of all of this? We can believe whatever we choose to believe. We can follow Dante into hell? We can visit the Elysian Fields. Imagination is a beautiful thing! But please, let's not fool ourselves that our fantasies are supported by Scripture or reflect the teachings of Christ and his apostles! Moreover, for those who profess to follow Christ, wouldn't it make sense to embrace what he believed and taught about the afterlife? Just asking.š
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix
34 comments:
People should watch some videos of Ehrman himself. Get it from the mouth of the horse, as they say. That is much better than reading an article which purports to cover Ehrman. Especially if the article is written by a person with no worthy credentials.
If there is an intermediate state, it has nothing to do with the salvation process or the Christian inheritance.
In Scripture, the complete salvation experience is described in 3 stages: justification, sanctification, and glorification by resurrection. Christians are called heirs of God, in waiting to inherit the inheritance. That inheritance is one, but is described in multiple ways.
We shall inherit salvation (Hebrews 1:4).
We shall inherit eternal life (Luke 18:18).
We inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 25:31-34, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
We inherit the inheritance at the resurrection at Christ's coming. As Lonnie points out, both Jesus and Paul taught this, for it is the teaching of the entire Bible. A belief in an intermediate state hides all this and confuses the issue, for the only thing most Christians know concerning the afterlife are the 3-4 scriptural texts that are twisted to prove the immortality of the soul, going to heaven or going to hell when they die.
Also, Ecclesiastes 12:7 is another interesting dichotomy that doesn't say what many think it says.
"Then (at death) shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach, not nephesh, the soul) shall return to God Who gave it".
It's not an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell at death, but it is the SPIRIT which returns to God . . . and this is true for ALL MEN, righteous and wicked alike! Hence, God is said to be the God of the spirits of all flesh, the Father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9, Numbers 16:22, 27:16, Acts 7:59, Luke 23:46).
Yes BP8
I was thinking the same thing about Eccl.
If God is able to annihilate Satan. Than it must be through the process of "The Spirit returning to God"...perhaps even through absorbing or incorporating like a small city sewer in the Ocean without effect.....
Nck
Thoughtful comments BP8. Thank you for contributing to this thread.
I encourage everyone to read the book for themselves, but this post was NOT meant to be a summary of what Ehrman had to say on the subject. Once again, I did NOT set out to write a review of his book. Ehrman is brilliant, and he makes many valid points in this book and the others which he has authored. Even so, while it is a good idea to consult the thinking of a scholar of his caliber, it would also be ignorant to swallow everything he says hook, line, and sinker. Scholars and Bereans check the claims of folks against what is actually in the book. Dr. Ehrman and I are naturally going to reach different conclusions about some things; because he doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is who he or the gospels claim he was, I do.
The Bereans should have checked whether the Bible itself is true. That is what real scholars do.
The author has written many thoughtful articles on this and other sites which are testimony enough. Many have found them to be sound and informative its unfortunate you won't read many of them.
The Bereans asked God in prayer whether the Bible is true. And he answered yes, it's true. But this proof only works if people are obeying God's law, so it won't work for most scholars.
A lot of religion is just wishful thinking.
In rereading the comment about the passage in Ecclesiastes, it appeared to me that there may be some confusion and misunderstanding associated with it. In the KJV, the passage is "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." The Hebrew word "ruwach" is translated here into English as spirit. This is consistent with the way that it is most often translated into English in that version of Scripture. It is the word used to indicate God's Spirit. This was the One who moved upon the face of the waters.
In other words, "ruwach indicates a spirit entity as opposed to a living "soul" or nephesh. Hence, its use in this passage indicated a spirit in the "soul" of a man that returns to God. Now, these distinctions can be even more confusing when we turn our attention to the KJV translation of the New Testament Greek into English.
In the New Testament, the Greek word "pneuma" is designated as "spirit" - as in the Holy Ghost (Spirit) or even to designate an evil spirit. In the same New Testament, the Greek word "psyche" is used to designate the soul or mind. Unlike the Hebrew word "nephesh" which is used to designate a living creature most of the time, the Greek word "psyche" is most often used to designate the Greek notion of a soul (although it is also used sometimes to designate the physical life of an individual human).
By the way, that was me earlier today encouraging everyone to read the book. The above post reflects my opinion. I've never felt the need to present credentials before to post here. I think that my time in Armstrongism "qualifies" me to post here. However, I do have undergraduate degrees in Environmental Science and Education, and completed most of the course work for a Masters in History. As part of my coursework, I did take classes in research techniques and methods and have spent significant time in laboratories. I have never attended a seminary, but I was licensed to preach the gospel by a local congregation of Seventh Day Baptists once upon a time and spoke once at a General Conference of that denomination. I have been a lifelong student of the Bible, and I have read the textbook that Dr. Ehrman wrote for his college-level Bible course. Is that enough to have an opinion and express it here?
In the seventies, Rod Stewart recorded THE memorable version of a song done by many other artists called "Reason to Believe" Although the central theme is the singer's intense mental machinations following an episode with an unfaithful girlfriend whom he loved very much, it strikes common ground, and rings true of a variety of situations in which an individual is figuratively on the ropes, and desperately needs to find a reason to believe. In Rod's case, to believe the lie that his girlfriend has told him straightfaced, as he cried. This is the raw angst of a soul, devastated and laid bare. One who may well find his reason to believe, only to be victimized again. Or not. We get the feeling from the song that he will live to love again, being wiser from that foulest of experiences.
How does that relate to us, here and now? Removed to another setting, Rod might be the quintessential Armstrongite, who when confronted with incontrovertible facts that he has been lied to by one whom he placed on a pedestal and called his Apostle, always finds his reason to believe, and allows his mind to spin, rationalize, and circumvent the facts presented to him.
We have some knowledgable seekers of truth here, who regularly and effectively present facts. With sources such as the Bible and Science, they are very articulate. They don't attempt to back people into the corner. Their focus is helping others by bringing truths to light. You get the feeling that perhaps they have already privately done their crying as the ministers they formerly trusted have lied straight faced. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
It never ceases to amaze me, watching the Armstrongites as they are exposed to pure, unfiltered facts, yet continue to reason their way around those facts and persisting in their programming. Some even admit that they, or their trust have been abused. Yet their minds manufacture reasons to believe. Reasons to remain in the situation created by their teachers. Human nature is often both peculiar and self-destructive. Quite a pity.
How? Caesar mostly destroyed the Alexandrian Library in 48 BC.
From what we read Jesus died and goes to Hades (Sheol). This is in Luke, and Jesus was not in heaven (or paradise) for the three days prior to the resurrection, rather he was in Hades (Acts 2:27, 31)
[Act 2:27 NKJV] For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
[Act 2:31 NKJV] "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
This seems like Jesus’ saying that he would ‘be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth’ (Matt. 12:40)
Neither Death nor Hades hold him, and Jesus is bodily resurrected. It is in the death and resurrection of Jesus that death and sin are defeated.
Who knows the state of the soul in this event?
The LORD is near to all those who call upon him. Those who call upon him in truth.
Just as an aside.
"Spirit" is a translation from a Latin word. The Anglo's before Catholicism used the older word "Gast" Germanic Geist.... Now Ghost......
Others may judge if the meaning differed between the 2 cultures for the listeners.
Nck
Yet you stay yourself and stay in power. What kind of a hypocrite are you ?
" let's not fool ourselves that our fantasies are supported by Scripture"
I thought this same author once admitted there were many errors in the "scripture."
High profile religious preachers get bought off by the usual suspects. Why should anybody believe a preacher?
"The Bereans asked God in prayer whether the Bible is true. And he answered yes, it's true."
According to what? The Bible? Circular reasoning? A voice from the sky?
It seems that every god will say that "his" scriptures are true. Yet all the scriptures disagree.
Thousands of Muslim real scholars believe one thing, while thousands of Catholic real scholars believe something very different, so scholars are hardly an infallible reference point.
Cue Pantera's "Cemetery Gates"
re 1.03 The Bereans asked God in prayer whether the Bible is true. And he answered yes, it's true. But this proof only works if people are obeying God's law, so it won't work for most scholars.
Bereans did nor just ask such question. They examined what they heard by comparing it to the Old Testament Scriptures.
That they honestly listened and conducted further personal research led many Bereans to faith in Jesus as the Messiah.
This expansion of Christianity was not limited to those within the synagogue, but also extended to many Greek men and women in Berea.
Many boast of being law keepers. Armstrong churches say this makes them the only true church.
2.04 pm, God does have the ability to communicate to humans.
nck said:
Just as an aside.
"Spirit" is a translation from a Latin word. The Anglo's before Catholicism used the older word "Gast" Germanic Geist.... Now Ghost......
Others may judge if the meaning differed between the 2 cultures for the listeners.
*******
Just to add my thoughts. Note that the disciples were aware of the phenomenon of ghosts as they believed Christ was a ghost at first when He walked on the water (Mat 14:26). And it’s possible they had some notion of preexistence before birth as they asked if a blind man had sinned which was reason for him being born blind (John 9:2).
Post comes of as a typical Armstrong rant against traditional Christianity as pagan.
4:17
I like your comment on the pre-existence of life.
In Israel I noticed that Jesus had worked im his father's construction business in the neighboring administrative center, a major hub where the Asian Traders (and Budhist thought) would have easily been discussed with the local philosophers or rabbi's. The major City of Sephoris at walking distance from Nazareth is not even mentioned in the bible.
nck
Zippy,
That makes me sad. It was certainly NOT my intention to come across as a typical Armstrongist rant against traditional Christianity - I completely reject the pagan narrative of Armstrongists, and my own views are much closer to traditional Christian views than they are to theirs. This particular post was meant to reflect reality and be consistent with Scripture, and it was meant to be somewhat critical of both traditions.
Who are you responding to, and what power do you think they have? Clarify. use the proper time and date stamp when making an accusation. There are 3 anonymous comments you could be referring to.
This exposes an occasional problem with some of the comments here. I wish the people who make one sentence drive-by accusations would provide greater detail to explain how and why they reached their conclusions. In this case, Zippy needs to tell us how Lonnie's post comes off as a "typical Armstrong rant......"
Like any other school of human thought, Armstrongism is a mixture of truth and error. HWA relied heavily upon Alexander Hislop's poor research and leaps to unwarranted conclusions in an attempt to differentiate his church from the Catholic church and its daughter churches birthed by the Protestant Reformation. HWA's error does not mean that the Jews/Israelites were totally immune to the influences of Hellenism, or the logic and beliefs of the great philosophers. One of the continuing influences of Hellenism is that the New Testament was originally written in Greek! The four books of Maccabees, from the intertestamental period, treat the Hellenist period, and its influences on Israel. Yet HWA ignored them. He dismissed them as apocryphal. These books were included in the Septuagint, an early "Bible" from which evidence in the New Testament shows that Jesus quoted. This is why some critics say that Jesus misquoted the Old Testament, when actually, better scholarship shows that He was quoting from the Septuagint. While the priests were reading from the ancient Hebrew scrolls in the temple on Shabbos, the Septuagint was the people's Bible (for those who were literate).
Often, the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities are remembered and cited by the followers of Herbert Armstrong, but as a small nation, Israel was prey, and subject to domination by the other great empires as well. Israel existed in subjugation to the Seleucid Empire during the period in which the books of the Maccabees were written, and this transferred to the Roman Empire in 63 BC when the Seleucid Empire was annexed and absorbed by the Roman Empire, under which it existed throughout the period covered by the New Testament. So, just as the USA has been influenced by the various influxes of immigrants during our own contemporary times, of course there would have been unavoidable philosophical influence upon the Jews during ancient eras, not only upon the nation/state of Israel, but also trickling into the religion of the Jews as well. Scholars have also noted Zoroastrian influences.
It becomes very important to properly identify and differentiate historically verifiable "pagan" influences from the false and spurious inluences theorized by Alexander Hislop, and taken completely at face value by HWA! Even then, the Greek Philosophers were not entirely bad. Much of what they taught remains both valid and useful in our own modern times, and some is consistent with the teachings of Jesus. It is part of the increase in knowledge spoken of in the Bible.
BB
Yes, my response was probably a little terse and hyperbolic . Sorry. But your post, at least the last paragraph, reminded me of Armstrong ranting about how the church(s) have misread the gospels since time and memorial and blah blah blah.
Likewise Ehrman sees christens misreading the gospels and instead fixated on heaven and hell probably, because we are stupid, petty, and mean spirited.
No one really knows what happens after we die. We all hope there is a life after this life that is much better then this life. There is nothing wrong with having hope in living on after we die, but no amount of hope changes what happens when we die. I believe it is all or no one that lives on. Either we all die and cease to exist forever or we all live on some how to a better life. I also do not believe in any kind of condemnation. It doesn't make sense to me that God created us imperfect so he condemns us for being imperfect.
Thanks for all of the thoughtful comments. I think Herbie was able to fool so many people, because the notion of eternal torment doesn't make sense to most of us. After all, if God really is love (and I believe "he" is), then a state of perpetual torment is inconsistent with such a being.
As I have made clear in this post, I believe God has the power to annihilate any and everything which "he" has created. I also think that annihilation is much more fair/just and humane than an eternity of suffering for the sins of one relatively brief human lifespan. At the same time, in order for God's plan to save humanity through Jesus Christ to be judged a success (by almost any standard which could be devised), the majority of humankind would eventually have to accept it and be saved. Hence, the relative number of individuals who end up in the "Lake of Fire" would have to be small.
The whole notion of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is reprehensible to me. Employing the fear of hell, to convert people or persuade them to become Christian is evil and counterproductive. After all, perfect love (what God is) casts out fear! My two cents.
On the other hand, 4:20? What is the cessation of consciousness, other than total peace, total rest? The purging not only of sin and evil, but the expunging of the resultant memory and chagrin of it all. No matter whether we are Christian, or any other line of thought or attitude, there are things which beat us up in life, and memories of every imperfect or rotten thing we've ever said, thought, or done. There are also the many manufactured defects in character caused by the intersections of our lives with the cultic thought processes of Armstrongism. The problem is, if these were purged from our memories, we would no longer be ourselves. Even predominantly good memories possess these contaminants. You'd have to have a total wipe!
Apparently, though forgiven, Paul's involvement in the death of St. Stephen was active in his memory and plagued him for the rest of his life!
I'm not an atheist, but I can honestly understand why the concept of no longer existing
Is a non issue for them. There are days when I believe that would actually be preferable to having to live forever. It's a conundrum with no human solution.
420 and 1211
I think it all boils down to WHAT is life and what purpose does it serve. Is not life a type of "school" where we learn what is right and wrong and how to live? As the growth of man is in successive stages of infancy, youth, and manhood, so it has been with the development of the race. Like children, man has needed to be taught, trained, and corrected, and the whole history of the race has been like one great school of life.
Humans including Christians make mistakes, stumble, fall, have regrets, and suffer from such both mentally and physically, but for what? If there is nothing beyond this existence, then all is for nought, no lessons learned, no character, no hope, no victories. Our first parents sinned and were kicked out of the Garden, but that wasn't the end of the story, but the beginning.
The Biblical sequence of salvation called "sanctification" is designed to bring our sinful "condition" up to Christ's glorious "position". We are called "righteous " even when we are not, but that's the goal. This process may not be a pleasant experience for "through much tribulation we enter into the kingdom of God". But when all is said and done, the finished product will be worth it.
I'm with Lonnie in that I also believe in the end that practically all of mankind will eventually be saved. The apostle Paul considered himself to be the worse of the worst, the " chief" of sinners, and who could argue? But Christ appeared unto him personally, face to face, and corrected him, called him, and used him in great ways. In this regard, Paul calls himself a PATTERN for all who "should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting" (1 Timothy 1:15-16). For those who require this special treatment they will receive it, for it is God's will that "all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4). To me that sounds like a real bargain!
BP8, Amen!
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