They worried and fretted over finding leavening in their homes or cars. And yet tonight, just a few seconds after sundown, COG members will be scrambling for some fresh hot bread at dinner or some luscious chocolate cake. Sin draws them back and runs their lives once again.
Almost-arrested but not-arrested Elijah, Elisha, Amos, Joshua, Habbakuk, and perpetually bitter, Bob Thiel has words of wisdom for those sinners now that the DUB are over.
Do Not Put Yourself in a Place that You Are as Tempted to Sin
There are also practical, physical, considerations that can help you overcome sin.
When you pray, “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” (Matthew 6:13, KJV), the implication is that you do not intentionally place yourself in areas to be tempted.
For example, if one is inclined to overly gamble, one should avoid going to casinos or visiting cities such as Las Vegas.
One who is inclined to smoke should not hang out with others who smoke. Nor should they ever buy cigarettes. However, since smoking is a very difficult habit to break, sometimes one may find replacement behaviors or some other physical item helpful to break the habit. But if someone wants to stop smoking, they really need to stop buying cigarettes. They should also repent and ask forgiveness of their sins each time they smoke (or commit any other sin).
As far one’s diet goes, God tells His people to “eat what is good” (Isaiah 55:2), thus Christians should be careful about their diets and not eat that which is not good for them.
When it comes to alcohol, one should not hang out with those that overly drink.
Christians are not to run with the crowd and go along with the world. Sin grows (James 1:15) and spreads (Romans 5:12).
One flees sexual immorality by not getting oneself in a situation that could be somewhat expected to possibly lead to it, or immediately leaving a situation if it appears possible.It is still quite obvious that Thiel, along with most other COG leaders think their followers are ignorant morons and too stupid to know how to manage their lives. Members have been conditioned to expect such guidelines from their overlords. It is much easier for someone else to do their thinking for them.
Even as a member separates themselves from bad influences there is one major sin that all church members are guilty of, at least in the inveterate liar Bob Thiel's eyes. There is one more grievous sin that COG members routinely fall into. If you fail to support his work, you have sinned.
As Christians, it is not just enough not to sin, we are to do the work of God. Furthermore, consider that when you pray God is not limited to what He can give you–in other words do not neglect to pray for major change, not to just not sin, but to do and support His work.Nowhere in any scripture can it be found that if one fails to support a COG leader and his ministry that one is committing a sin. Nowhere.
If Bitter Thiel knew anything about the New Covenant, he would know that the battle has been won and the struggle is not a day to day task of mercilessly beating one's self up for some indiscretion.
What Bitter Bob should have said is this:
"If one is inclined to follow lying Church of God self-appointed false prophets, one should not associate with such people."
51 comments:
Bwana Bob wrote:
When it comes to alcohol, one should not hang out with those that overly drink.
Now I understand why Bitter Bob doesn't mention Jesus very often. The gospels make it plain not only that Jesus hung out with drunkards, but that His critics faulted him for doing so. If Bob had been around during Jesus' lifetime, Bob would have been one of those criticizing Jesus for hanging out with drunkards! Bob is actually ashamed by (and disapproving of) his own Savior!
The last day of Unleavened Bread starts tomorrow night, April 7 2018, at sunset according to the biblical calendar.....Theil needs to stop sinning...
TK
"When it comes to alcohol, one should not hang out with those that overly drink."
You mean I can't hang out with myself. Bummer. Where am I supposed to go?
Anon 1201 -
..not hang out with those that overly drink - does he mean we have to dine alone at the FOT?
Perhaps Bob could have said we should always be the designated driver.
Sometimes the apostle Paul "dumbed down" his advice. Check Ephesians 4:28 for an example.
So did John the Baptizer, in Luke 3.
TB
How practical is it for every member to determine the holy day dates? This is not practical for the sake of church attendance. These dates are the legitimate responsibility of church leaders, with God holding them for responsible. People like James Malm are nothing but trouble makers with their own 'correct' calenders. They waste so much of members time and attention of technicalities while never expoundering the ten commandments.
They deserve to be tared and feathered and run out of town.
You wrote:
"It is still quite obvious that Thiel, along with most other COG leaders think their followers are ignorant morons and too stupid to know how to manage their lives. Members have been conditioned to expect such guidelines from their overlords. It is much easier for someone else to do their thinking for them."
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that the origin of this attitude is Ambassador College either directly or by association. These men and their spouses were anodized in a hierarchical caste system for years. While the caste system had many different ranks, in general, there were ministers or ministerial trainees at the top and lay members at the bottom.
I do not believe it is widely known among lay members but back in the Seventies at AC BS it was taught that this WCG caste hierarchy would be mapped over directly into the Kingdom of God. So your minister would always be your overlord for all eternity - so get used to it.
For an AC student to be told that they occupied a special place in the hierarchy (as Millerite Princes and Princesses) forever and were superior to the most accomplished lay members is heady stuff. But you saw this caste viewpoint enacted commonly in WCG congregations. Ministers regarded themselves to be superior to everyone.
A later product of this view was HWA's stating, in his book "Tomorrow' World" or some such, that he would occupy a magnificently high rank in the Kingdom of God. I think he was going to work "directly under Abraham" (note he was careful to exclude any intervening layers of governance). I now regard this statement to be sad and embarrassing.
The ministry held lay members in check by constantly and oppressively pushing the viewpoint that they were burdened with "human nature" and were desperately wicked. And without the help of Herbert and his minions, they would all lose salvation. (Later Herbert stated on a tape distributed to the congregations that only the ministry would be saved, such was his disdain for lay members.) This was hammered into their minds to disrupt any sense of self-esteem and keep them and their wallets submissive to the machinations of church leadership.
Where did this abuse originate? At Ambassador College - everyone may have majored in theology, business or home ec on paper - but in reality they majored almost exclusively in The Caste System.
Back in the day, church members looked down on others for their faults, and didn’t treat certain ones as equal. In their odd little pick and choose world, angry parents who severely beat their children were seen as deeply converted, ordainable, and zealous about following the child-rearing booklet. Members who may have had more than two beers at one sitting were generally looked down upon. Same with those who still enjoyed rock music, or violated the various minutiae regarding hair or clothing styles. There was always the local boofus-goofus who felt duty bound to keep notes and to rat. Thiel would most likely have fit into that last category.
BB
Read a posting on Facebook last night that epitomizes the reality within the COG - "DOUB over, pizza's on the way" It couldn't have been 30 minutes after sundown.
"How come the Devil don't do me any favors?"
"I asked him that and he said he did. He said if it wasn't for him you'd not have a job!"
lol
More depth to that statement than most will admit.
Bread and Drinking are related...
How else can you DRINK A TOAST! ;-)
The deprecation of lay members was an article of faith at Ambassador College. Strains of this tune are still being played in the various fragment churches. If you don't believe the assertion, just think about all the empirical evidence you have seen.
I recall when I first visited Ken Westby back in ancient times, he told me that WCG lay members were of very humble status. They were, as he said, "the off-scouring of society." He said it was like when you had a dirty cooking pot and there was a residue in it that was simply washed away. Later I heard that Rod Meredith had remarked that lay members were the "cream of the crud."
Then, as I cited earlier, Herbert said that only the ministry would receive salvation. On another occasion, Herbert said that lay members were only important as funding sources for the work - God could raise up stones to replace them. This meant that their individuality and human dignity was not in the picture for Herbert - only their wallets.
And then there is the idea that lay members would occupy the lowest rung in the hierarchical ladder for all eternity. (So that idea that sermonette givers over-used about the little widow who gives her mite and receives a great reward in heaven - nobody in WCG leadership ever believed that. The little widow would always be on the lowest rung based on the principles I heard preached. Only AC grads were credentialed for any rank above the bottom.)
Can you see the grip of this? How they reached into the next life to oppress people in this life?
When we examine he latest monkeyshines of the leadership of the Armstrongist fragment churches, we must consider the development of their views at Ambassador College - The Great Caste System. The road to greatness is carpeted with the crushed lives of lay members. Ambassador College with its ironic slogan, ironic in view of what Ambassador College actually was: The Word of God is the Foundation of Knowledge.
NEO noted: ""It is still quite obvious that Thiel, along with most other COG leaders think their followers are ignorant morons and too stupid to know how to manage their lives. Members have been conditioned to expect such guidelines from their overlords. It is much easier for someone else to do their thinking for them."
etc.
You must have had quite the experience . I have to honestly say that these extreme examples of how it all was to be was not my experience. I never heard such things promoted . Not that some didn't behave that way or HWA not say it, but those beliefs about who would be over who and how stupid the members were was simply not my experience .
I think sometimes in hind sight we tend to embellish and rewrite our experiences . I have caught myself doing that so I assume we can all do it. But also, I'm not saying that was not your personal experience. I have read here from time to time "the ministry was taught to...." or some such thing that showed disdain for the members. Not my experience and I never once heard that promoted in my rather small circle I admit.
You must have had quite the experience . I have to honestly say that these extreme examples of how it all was to be was not my experience.
Dennis, do not take offense to this statement - but I simply believe you were out of the loop.
You were not the "typical" COG pastor. I have many, many stories myself, and have witnessed the smug, holier than thou attitude of AC students on their return, the haughtiness and arrogance of ministers, the way pastors acted as overlords. It was very accepted the way things "were to be".
You commented:
"I think sometimes in hind sight we tend to embellish and rewrite our experiences . I have caught myself doing that so I assume we can all do it. But also, I'm not saying that was not your personal experience"
There is an insinuation here that some who post here embellish or rewrite their experiences because it does not match your experience. That is certain to be quite offensive to those who use Banned as an outlet to share their experiences, only to be shrugged off by a former pastor as "embellishment" or "rewritten" because it was "not your experience". You also stated that many of the posts are "extreme examples". You may not realize this, but you are downplaying some very traumatic memories from the abused, and your dismissive comments are troubling. And I have no reason to cast doubt on the posters' memories here. Casting doubt on the posters' posts makes it seem like they are at fault for embellishing or rewriting their memories, and now it seems to be their fault all over again when they try to deal with their history and personal situations.
The bottom line is: You may have been a pastor of the church, but you admit your circle was small and you did not have some experiences. For the sake of the abused who post here. Do not insinuate that some posts here were embellished and rewritten because some things were not your experience. This is a place for trust and open thought, not for a former pastor to cast doubt on the experiences of the many because they were not the experiences of the few.
Good for speaking out Dennis.
NEO turned from an interesting balanced commenter to insanity. Something must have happened in the past 3 months.
As a matter of fact is is 90% lies since he read that davidian book.
I am now even questioning the interesting stuff he brought to this blog.
If he continues I might expose the flaws in his reasoning.
For starters "twins" have very different DNA at times. Especially twins from mixed genetic background. One might be 20% Italian, 40 percent greek and 40 percent anglo, while the exact twin might be 50% Italian, 20% greek and 30% anglo.
And this is just a warning shot to stop him from deliberate lies and return to his interesting contributions and perspective.
Nck
"DOUB over, pizza's on the way"
I'll take mine with extra pepperoni and sausage!
Oh man his last posting is insane!
This has nothing to do with respecting each and everyones experience. It is lies and I hope he is seeking help for his issues. I really like what he was last year.
Nck
As a matter of fact I'm afraid that NEO spending time on this blog has been detrimental to his mental state as it is recorded as deteriorating.
I wish him well and a couple of days "me time".
Nck
Dennis
As far as I'm concerned, you're talking up the ministers in your 8.14 AM post since it reflects on you - a former minister. As a minister, you were treated like royalty, so what would you know about the lot of ordinary members. You come here as a armchair critic, contificating about matters you know little about.
There is an over whelming body of evidence that members were arbitrary treated like children and criminals. For members to be treated like responsible adults was a rarity.
It's the bully trait of seeing and treating people in terms of ones needs rather than treating every person according to their character.
We noticed, back in the ‘60s, that there was quite a difference in attitudes amongst the students from the three AC campuses. Those associated with the other campuses’ basketball teams would come to Pasadena for the intramural games in the middle of the school year. At Pasadena, we’d actually be counselled in a student body forum held just prior to everyone’s arrival as to how to treat these visitors. One thing we were told specifically is that you don’t make remarks to the Texas students about not being able to do any of the “real” work. As groups, the Pasadena students worked at headquarters, the Bricket Wood students had much to do with the European or international work, so the Texas students were somewhat standalone in their own unique situation.
It was also not a very desirable thing for a student or faculty member from Pasadena or Bricket Wood to be transferred to Big Sandy. Deep down, the faculty knew that they were third string. Two of my siblings attended at Big Sandy, and there were some profound differences in the attitudes which they faced. Even in a “come out of this world” church, a college campus does not exist in a total vacuum. It exists as part of the larger surrounding environment, perhaps as a sub-ecosystem, and by osmois, it will absorb many of the attitudes and cultural aspects of the larger environment in which it functions. Big Sandy, and East Texas were not the cosmoplitan environment that the Los Angeles and London areas were. I’m thinking this is why some of the anecdotes and experiences from the Big Sandy campus seem somewhat gauche or out of character to some readers.
In Pasadena, we did have 1-W work program participants working with us on the gardening crew, and there were some in various other job settings on campus. I got to know some of them quite well. They were treated much the same as any other workers on the campus, but this wasn’t Texas. In a major corporation, there are various job descriptions, and a certain ad hoc caste system evolves. That’s how Pasadena rolled. As gardeners or staff of the AC Press, we knew we weren’t church administration, or IT. But, to my knowledge, workers were not abused or persecuted because of their level of the hierarchy. That most likely was so prevalent in Texas because they were attempting to overcompensate for the status of the Big Sandy campus in the pecking order of things.
BB
The caste system in the old WCG really took off after the expansion to Britain. Herbert and those around him enthusiastically embraced the class attitude of the British. Suddenly, everyone had a "station." It permeated the ministry as well.
Laughed to tears over this one! Someone widely recognized as being Coo Coo for Cocoa Puffs assails and attacks one of our blog’s voices of reason and moderation. Better to have remained silent on this one, nck!
The "you're taking up with ministers" "you are a former minister...so.." and treated like royalty" gets old and was neither my way of being personally nor my experience. I was not trained to think members were all the low life some think and ministers the leaders for sure in the Wonderful World Tomorrow. I call those generic and all encompassing views glittering generalities which are no more fair to put on everyone because someone didn't like someone.
At 24, when I was given my first church to pastor I put a quick end to a repulsive and stupid practice I had seen at a combined church picnic for example. Deacons had roped off an area at the picnic with yellow ski rope for ministers and elders to sit in and "talk" evidently. I was invited in and I went and played baseball instead. I made a mental note that when I had the say, that was the first to go and it was. I also put a quick end to "Head Tables" for elders and ministers at church dinners. All this reflects the common sense way I grew up outside WCG and my tendencies to note stupid and offensive practices.
I get to defend my ministry as not being AC trained. I was trained in the common sense of treating everyone the same and underdogs in any situation usually got my support long before the powers that be did. You don't get to live my experience or decide I was like others you knew.
I stopped a lot of members from doing for me that which made me uncomfortable, I did not pay for or felt they were wanting something in return. Members often forced or were prone to force favors on me that I knew I needed to be careful about accepting.
I know a hell of a lot about "ordinary members" I was an ordinary minister and am an ordinary person that got sucked in as well by my own choice. Be whatever as far as I'm concerned as you wish to be. However, Please don't project your ministerial experiences on me as you would be way off the mark.
Jeez-Oh-Man, nck. you make yourself look as ridiculous as Anonymous Adolf when he attempts to impeach BB
Anon said:
The bottom line is: You may have been a pastor of the church, but you admit your circle was small and you did not have some experiences. For the sake of the abused who post here. Do not insinuate that some posts here were embellished and rewritten because some things were not your experience. This is a place for trust and open thought, not for a former pastor to cast doubt on the experiences of the many because they were not the experiences of the few.
I was out of the loop. I made every effort to be out of the loop. I did not like the loop and in time the loop did not like me. When I say embellished and rewritten" I am not diminishing the specific and real experiences of others. I am speaking of , or intended to mean, the "all you ministers" stuff gets put on everyone who was in that capacity. That's the untrue or too generic a concept. I AM NOT MEANING SOME THINGS ARE EXAGGERATED BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT MY EXPERIENCE. I well know the lousy experiences of members. Year after year I'd get calls, because of my own reputation for being fair and kind from members in the churches next door to "come up and speak and help us because our minister is harsh and nuts." I can give you names of bordering pastors driving members nuts . David C Pack and Ron Weinland. Ron Reedy also comes to mind. My reaction is to the practice of putting it on me as if I also was that way.
Apologies if you think I mean to diminish the real experiences of members outside my sphere of influence
9:27
The big fat taboo on this blog is to say that even if there is an ounce of truth to what some are saying THERE ARE TWO PARTIES INVOLVED. Even the fact that you seemed to be intimidated by 25 year olds (students returning) is actually telling. I feel sorry for your experience but truly, it sounds so pathetic what you are saying.
I am awaiting that sorry excuse for an anonymous to comment.....yeah blame it on us narcissist". A pathetiv excuse for a semi psychologist who should see a real one for starters to really see he was never a victim but by his own vices.
If it wasnt armstrong he would have beeen dubed by the next snake oil salesman or jimmy swaggart for gods sakes.
What a pathetic show of winers.
Get a grip.
Nck
NCK 9:47
I have no idea what you are writing about. The accusation of 90% lies you must have pulled out of your backside.
I am not buying any of that "diminish real experience" shit.
On the "life in a cult" thread I commented on the phenomenon Dennis mentioned on the "slaves heaping favors" on their "masters".
I witnessed that shit far more than the ministers demand it. It seems people who did that have issues that their "investment" never paid off. Please inba thousand miles around my congragation ministers never " demanded" such favors although they might have reveived them. And I am not on some island in the South Pacific, for those silly ones trying to fault me.
I know its the hardest thing to look in a mirror and not be pleased with what you are seeing even if it is the harsh truth in NEON lighting.
Nck
NCK can sit there in his elitist snobbery and claim that no one experienced the things NEO and others have described here. Apparently, we make it all up because NCK knows better. Every single church area I was in had to kowtow to the wet behind the ears AC grads that came to work in our church areas and at the college. They were to be obeyed no matter what they said. Afterall they were educated at God's College and knew everything, just like NCK. No one here knows better than NCK. I bow at your righteousness.
If you review my post of 8:14 you will notice that I have cited evidence to support my assertions. I have provided a reasonable interpretation of these evidences. Others could interpret them differently. The problem with that is that I was actually there at AC watching this train wreck happen. When I carried the girls luggage up to the dorm, that actually happened - it was not a foray into fiction.
Dennis Diehl implies that what I am writing is not credible because this did not happen to him. Let me offer a different possibility. Might not his experience at AC been much different from mine. He was a member of an elite whether he was able to recognize it or not. I was a lay member commoner. I knew AC students who thought AC was great. They were the Millerite Princes and Princesses. They had reason to believe that it was a great experience. But I saw it all from the belly of the whale.
I asked an AC student (politely, BTW) to leave a classroom after curfew under regulations given to me by Buildings and Grounds and he told me to get lost. He claimed I was just jealous because I was not a student. Then he made up a derogatory name for me and used that thereafter. He is now a high ranking minister on the Council of Elders for the UCG. I wonder if Dennis ever had an experience like that and what might be the reason that he did not have such an experience. Might some reflection give him the answer.
My assertion, I think, is verified within the space of this thread. I believe that Dennis, even though he claims to be different, displays the classical look-down-your-nose attitude common to the AC elite when he writes on this blog. I do not think he intends to but was thoroughly trained at Ambassador College to behave this way. He was immersed in The Great Caste System for years. And all the other contributors to this blog in his mind are low caste and need his guidance.
No offense meant. We all have our problems. Just saying ...
"The last day of Unleavened Bread starts tomorrow night, April 7 2018, at sunset according to the biblical calendar....."
...and April 8th is Orthodox Easter.
Happy Easter, everyone!
I used to believe the epitome of arrogance lay at the door of the church and it’s self serving ministry.
After being involved at this site for a couple of years now, I find that many of those who declare so many things so abhorrent and horrible with all things COG, perhaps should look in the mirror and realize that what you rail most against, you are also guilty.
I hold no illusion that what the church stood for or was absolutely derelict in purpose, but in all honesty, reading the likes of nck, on occasion some of the regulars, probably should drop the rocks in their own glass empirical spheres and recognize you took along some of that which this very site by name, repudiates.
Plowing the same ground is something I’ve been accused of in not “letting go” of decades of angst from the college and church/ ministry, but perhaps we’d all be wise to reexamine what we think gets accomplished, with the never ending, intellectual bantering exercise here.
I too, am a long way from healing, but what I see here way too often, is people who are just unzipping and measuring and do little to get past the BS that now leads each of our lives.
At least with the likes of Dennis, you get both sides of his issue, which is rather refreshing. I don’t hold with some of his answers now in life, but I think he and I could probably sit down over a drink of our choice and share our experiences without bloodletting.
For some here, I think drawing blood is the motive, not as a means to heal or move on.
12:36
I never said it didnt happen.
I'm just rethinking the definition of losers.
Who is taking orders of a 25 year old UNLESS it is your senior officer trying to take Omaha beach.
The rest are winers taking orders from students wet behind the ears.
And yes of course the incident with the girl happened. I did my share for girls with the right pedigree. (Non of which was a ministers kid, thanl you very much)
Nck
You’ve got a firm grasp of the obvious, 1:09, and are unknowingly on our team! Of couse we carry some of the same characteristics which we critique and lampoon. How could we not? Those were engrained in us by our brainwashers who also had them. They are properly known as residual damage. We expose them, work to overcome them, and some of us have actually let down our bogus WCG shields and have sought counselling and therapy so that these damages will not remain as a permanent factor in our lives.
The difference between ourselves and our brainwashers is that our own awareness has been heightened, and we recognize the negatives and toxic for what they are and the damage they do, while the brainwashers continue to exemplify and teach them as “enlightenment”. When you see people teaching ignorance, it’s your moral and ethical duty to expose it!
BB
Dennis, you mentioned Ron Reedy, I remember him from when I was quite young in Des Moines IA. My father got squished more than once by him, I have no positive memories of anything regarding him. From what my stepmother told me before she married my father, Reedy dictated what he expected others to do for him.
BB:
I don’t believe 1:09’s point wasn’t he or she wasn’t one of “us”. They wouldn’t be here if they weren’t a casualty of the COG.
But the COG narrative often becomes the sideshow for whomever wants the current spotlight, not unlike the ministry we assail. But it doesn’t stop there, to 1:09’s point, but rather a nonstop regaling of the new and improved me who now has their own new truths that must also be preached.
If that’s part of the “healing process”, so be it, but even you have a tendency to wax elequent with your “new beliefs or experiences”, so some might consider that as tedious as one of the hour and half sermons that keep beating the same point, week after week.
1:09 admitted they were in the same boat as many on here.....perhaps they just see a little naked emperor syndrome from all of us, myself included.
Self righteousness isn’t a lone paradigm for the church that should be re-examined, but for any who get stuck in their own head that I’m that much better but utilize the same tired tools.
3:02 and 1:09 are so diplomatic that I do not understand.
For now my interpretation is that we are 100 percent in agreement although they are not in agreement with me.
It would take Dr Stavrinidis to figure that out and reconcile that or they might just be a little more explicit next time.
btw It now dawns on me that Neo was AT ac but not part of the student body. I might take that into consideration next time. In that context I have seen entire nations rail at students at times even threatening by law to close down all sororities. It puts neo's experience in a different perspective from that angle and a more of a general complaint of all ages in all nations. (in the range of "in the past everything was better")
Nck
Of course I meant fraternities aswell. But I didn't want to put him in the anti masonic conspiracy grouping and limit the complaint to "outsider" observance of, indeed a student caste.
Ah yes the "untouchables". At my alma mater they were called "citizens". Meaning "all non student body", meaning , the people that get up at 7 make lunch and go to their boring daytime job while the little wifee throws them a kiss. Oh, the arrogance of youth.
Nck
“Btw it finally dawns on me that NEO was AT ac but not part of the student body....”
Jeez, nck, he’s only been sharing that on these blogs and forums for the last 10 or more years! Don’t you remember ANY specific personal details pertinent to the cast of characters of our dissident world? Or do you just block them out because you are too busy venerating HWA as if he actually had been an apostle or saint?
People on ‘ludes shouldn’t comment on blogs and forums. Quit wasting our time. Post something intelligent once in a while!
BB
Allen Dexter 10:57
I posted that comment some years ago.
I shows insight into the development of corporate culture.
It would be possible to point to early 1940 articles where hwa had not decided on the topic of "government". Looking back people call hwa "whimsical", but in fact it was american pragmatism at work embedded in the democratic, republican values of the time. Impossible to start "new religions" in other parts of the world, as the airwaves were government controlled until the 1970's. Meredith shaped and imported much of the culture and the british caste system so you will since 1960.
Nck
BB 9:12
The reason the two of us can have conversations are that you have acknowledged more or less that:
-intelligence is the least of my problems
-I am for example able to hold the position that most attempts to discredit BI are ridiculous and pathetic while at the same time drink a beer with you guys and in earnest acknowledge your position that it might not be a scientific theory at all
-I am able to access knowledge less available to the common man and as I have said over and over tested by the acknowledged best of the best
The problem is that you have not been able to find out how I am able to reconcile all of this and therefore feel the need to dismiss it at times. (or perhaps always, I don't really care)
As a gesture of good will I will give you one solution to the enigma that some find intrigueing and most on this blog find utterly detestable. (I am not assuming a "silent majority.")
Exhibit A.
https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21739990-reaction-queens-purported-muslim-extraction-has-been-varied-arab?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/muslimsconsiderqueenelizabethstiestotheprophetmuhammadisthecaliphaqueen
I pray not a single person will respond in the manner of "what does this have to do with BI" since they will make utter fools of themselves unless it is a genuine question and people are groping in the dark.
nck
We’ve already killed the B.I. theory, and don’t care what you have to say about it. There are also people who laud Hitler here or believe in David Icke’s lizard people. Kooks usually chide people for not being open minded, and say that we’re in danger of becoming mindless automatons. One relationship has always been true: garbage in, garbage out. Stupid theories actually waste and ruin peoples’ lives. Recovery involves rediscovering a normal and productive life, one in which lies no longer prevent you from being all that you can be.
BB
BB
Completely agreed.
In the beginning was the word........
All recent discovery on the human brain points to the fact that man is guided by narratives.
It is what made us speak, reason and be human. We broke the code how to string words into a narrative which gave us the power to imagine, dream, construct.
Nck
That same code-breaking also gave humans the ability to act and imitate, nck. There is very little original thinking, and not everyone follows the best and brightest. HWA, in so many words, characterized himself as being a bottom-feeder. Just glad that it was my parents who glommed on to him, and that it was not me who made a conscious decision to follow him.
BB
Are you issueing a warning for unclean fish now? :-)
Speaking about acting.
This weekend I watched a movie about a man born around 1895, plagued by personal conflict of identity, starting a career at about 1924. Fought communism since 1920, workers associations, anarchy, general disorder in society. He had some strong opinions on disorder, the civil rights movement, creaping communism, immorality (darwinism in general and leadership in particular) and the USA in general. Enlightening to have some context on the thought patterns of that generation and the issues they struggled with.
WHAT??
No, it's not that the movie "The Autobiograpy" has been released yet.
That was just subliminal influencing on my part.
It was "J. Edgar Hoover" with di Caprio.
nck
1)
Dear NEO
Apparently, BB admonished me to post something intelligent once in a while.
I did on 6:54.
Since I am a guy I am able to on one thread/moment hit one on the head, either deservedly or undeservedly and at the same time/or not long after be friends. (As widely known for women irritation once accumulated will last for a lifetime of repetitive remembrance.)
Lately I came across an article that contains many of the "keywords" you mentioned on this thread. "caste", "natives and the attitudes of the conquerers", dna research.
I found it particularly interesting since it serves my thesis on the importance of "narratives" (like BI), or any historic education, if they are true or not, for the purpose of supporting "political" ends. And for other reasons of the origins of "priestly casts", who are known or close to the Gods.
Perhaps you might find the article of interest also for these or maybe for other reasons. At least I thought I might share it.
Cheers
nck
https://www.economist.com/news/asia/21740048-aryans-did-not-come-india-they-conquered-it-new-study-squelches-treasured-theory-about
Steppe sonsA new study squelches a treasured theory about Indians’ origins
The Aryans did not come from India; they conquered it
A CENTURY and a half ago linguists invented a new map of the world. Their research showed that a single family tree stretches its branches almost unbroken across most of Eurasia: from Iceland to Bangladesh, most people speak languages descended from “Proto-Indo-European”. The philologists had a theory to explain why Sanskrit, the ancient forebear of Hindi, has closer cousins in Europe than in south India. They speculated that at some point before the composition of the Vedas, the oldest texts of Hinduism, an Aryan people had migrated into India from the north-west, while their kin pushed westward into Europe.
Long before the Nazis dreamed of an exalted master race, imperialists seized on what some dubbed the “Aryan invasion” theory to paint Britain’s rule of India as the extension of a “natural” order. Indians, too, found a use for it.
2) nck
Caste-bound Hindu conservatives declared that the paler-skinned intruders must be ancestors of higher-caste Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Such talk stirred a backlash in southern India, where generally darker-skinned speakers of Dravidian languages were urged to see themselves as a separate nation.
Hindu nationalists took a different tack. The West, some said, had made up the theory to set Hindus against each other. Christian missionaries and communists were using it to stoke caste hatred and so to recruit followers, they claimed. Worse, the theory challenged an emerging vision of Mother India as a sacred Hindu homeland. If the first speakers of Sanskrit and the creators of the Vedas had themselves been intruders, it was harder to portray later Muslim and Christian invaders as violators of a purity that good Hindus should seek to restore. So it was that some proposed an alternative “Out of India” theory. This held that the original Aryans were in fact Indians, who carried their Indo-European language and superior civilisation to the West.
Yet, even as Hindu nationalism has gained politically, culminating in the current rule of the conservative Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), evidence has mounted against the out-of-India hypothesis. Philologists have determined with a fair degree of certainty that the Vedas were probably composed between 1500BC and 500BC. Archaeology, meanwhile, indicates that a sophisticated urban civilisation had flourished in the Indus Valley around a thousand years earlier, but had collapsed before the Vedic Age.
The culture depicted in Sanskrit texts has different traits. It was largely rural and pastoral, relied on iron instead of bronze and appears to have used horses, chariots and bows and arrows—all of which are absent from the original Indus settlements. Proponents of the Aryan invasion conclude that a large influx of outsiders would neatly explain all this. Another clue: the proportion of Indians who can tolerate cows’ milk decreases markedly towards the east, suggesting that cattle-herders migrated into the country from the west.
Even so, fierce exchanges in Indian social media have greeted every new study. Academic researchers have found themselves branded Christian missionaries, “sickularists” or even Chinese agents. Lately, however, such controversy has shifted from linguistics and archaeology to genetics. As techniques of extracting, analysing and tracking DNA through time and place improve, a clearer picture is emerging.
3) nck
An accumulating pile of research using DNA from both ancient human remains and modern people indicates strongly that, beginning around 2000BC, north-west India was indeed infused with new blood. The newcomers appear to have shared the same roots in what is now southern Russia as did the invaders of a similar-sized peninsula to the west called Europe. Strikingly, too, the genetic markers identifying this group seem to be far more prevalent among modern north Indian Brahmins than among other Indians.
Because of the difficulty in collecting ancient DNA, such research has until recently relied on relatively few samples. But an international team of 92 scholars, including David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard University who has pioneered techniques to analyse DNA more quickly and precisely, is set to publish data recovered from 362 “ancient individuals” from across South and Central Asia. Among their conclusions: there was probably an early migration of agriculturalists into India from what is now Iran, around 4000BC, and this was followed two millennia later—just before the Vedic Age—by a large influx from what is now southern Russia (see map).
The wider study not only confirms that “Aryans” (geneticists avoid the term) probably migrated from the steppes around the Volga and Don rivers to both India and Europe at around the same time. It also shows that their genetic markers later spread southwards across India, and are indeed particularly prevalent in “groups of priestly status”.
This article appeared in the Asia section of the print edition under the headline "Steppe sons"
Ahem. Mind if I break in on this for a sec?
Well I don't know about some of you but this conversation reminds me of some of the Sermonettes I (ughhh) used to hear. I lost you guys ages ago. :) If this was church, I'd be snoring with my head down glancing at the clock just a bit waiting to hear the words "well what a wonderful message. Now would you all please take up your hymnals and rise" to snap me back to reality. :)
Somehow I think nck's closing prayers (if he gave them) would have lasted 10 minutes and put callouses on my heels from my rocking back and forth. You guys need to take a break, have a Coffee and a Krispy Kreme, and take a walk, and enjoy the fresh air. I'm sure you all got a lot out of what was written here. But again. I couldn't be more lost. So I am just writing this here to break the monotony of this flashback of the past. But you all seem to be enjoying your conversation so carry on. :P
*customary Handshake with proper grip and shake* :) :) :)
Bob Thiel said: "...Christians are not to run with the crowd and go along with the world. Sin grows (James 1:15Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)) and spreads (Romans 5:12Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))..."
What does Bob Thiel find so exciting about "The Message" verses to use them to educate us?
James 1:15
Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer.
Romans 5:12
You know the story of how Adam landed us in the dilemma we’re in—first sin, then death, and no one exempt from either sin or death.
DUH! What do these verses have to do with the “price of putty?” And, are you really blaming Adam for “the dilenna we’re in?” Really?
Comment made earlier said: “…It is hard to imagine that just a short week ago that every COG leader and member was washed clean of sin, and now 8 days later, they are inveterate sinners once again. Not a single one of them overcame anything, even as hard as they tried. The very moment they walked out of that high school gym or Masonic Lodge on Passover night, sin entered their lives…”
Now, Bob Thiel, that comment, in light of the Bible, makes much more sense!
Why? Consider this KJV verse:
“Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Romans 7:17
Bob, you said sin grows and spreads; did you not?
But that sin is “in” you too! How do you get around that verse, whether you believe it grows and spreads it or not?
Consider another KJV verse:
“Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?” James 4:5
That spirit dwelled in the James; how about you? How do you, Bob Thiel, get around that verse?
Granted Bob Thiel, your lust and envy may not be in the area of football, but it surely is being manifested in your life in some other ways, or you are nothing like the Christian James was, or fot that matter, Paul.
Bob, how do you, in your way of thinking, reconcile sin that grows and spreads with the following words of the Apostle Paul?
“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation…” 2 Cor 5:19
Whether or not sin grows and spreads, sin is sin. The wages are the same, or are you thinking in the Catholic way of venial sins, mortal sins, etc.? Still, I’d rather believe Paul’s words than to believe your words quoted from some “Message,” but time will tell…
John
Man 3:23
I wish you had a recognizable monniker. You have some of the best advice.
You can sit now. Everyone is sitting already or heading for the coffee. I know the sun is shining out there. But there is some conversation to do before the 2 hour drive back to reality.
Nck
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