We sure do love to wax poetic on here about how tragically broken the various Churches of God have become, especially their spectacular inability to actually meet together and fellowship like—oh, I don't know—actual brethren in Christ. Recently, UCG (United Church of God) extended a gracious olive branch to COGWA (Church of God, a Worldwide Association) and LCG (Living Church of God). And lo and behold, they all solemnly nodded in agreement: yes, their members really do wish everyone could just be together again; yes, the endless splits have been painful, messy, and frankly exhausting.
They even managed to utter the magic words—we need to have agape love for one another. Touching, isn't it? Heartwarming, even. Yet somehow, despite all this profound recognition and these noble admissions, they willfully persist in keeping themselves neatly separated, each in their own little organizational fortress. Because nothing says "agape love" quite like maintaining doctrinal turf wars and separate Feast sites.
UCG has been kind enough to clarify that these high-level kumbaya sessions are strictly private affairs—leadership chatting behind closed doors, while the poor members (the ones who actually long to reunite) are left on the outside looking in, wondering why their heartfelt desires don't merit an invitation to the grown-ups' table. The pride and arrogance of the leaders continue to act as the world's most effective superglue, holding the divisions firmly in place. Meanwhile, they earnestly preach that everyone else should be filled to overflowing with agape love, mutual respect, and brotherly unity... as they all supposedly labor together for Jesus Christ.
Which brings us to the uncomfortable little question that really ought to be asked: Do they actually all work for Jesus Christ? The last forty years of schisms, power struggles, name changes, lawsuits, and fresh acronyms sprouting like weeds have a way of whispering a very different story—one that's far less flattering and a great deal more... human. But hey, at least the sermons still sound spiritual.
Mr. Elliott said he recently visited Mr. Gerald Weston and his staff at the Living Church of God offices in North Carolina. He has also recently spoken with Mr. Jim Franks at the COGWA offices. He mentioned that most of what we all do is done in triplicate, such as with offices, hall rentals, travel, and Feast sites, etc. Mr. Elliott assured everyone that while there is no desire to combine, it seems most members wish we were together. He then compared what has happened in some cases to a divorce in a family. He said such splits are painful, messy and are typically private interactions among a few leaders without members being fully aware or participating. He also mentioned that currently, the “children” of God wish for the “parents” to get back together. He said that, “it does not seem realistic at this point, so we all need to move forward, repenting and striving with agape love and respect for one another and the work we are performing for Jesus Christ.”
He explained that Jesus desires that God’s children all be one (John 17:20-21), and he explained that while we are not all in a single corporation, at least we all need to be one in God and Jesus Christ by having an agape mindset. Let’s all help each other in striving to do just that, please.
48 comments:
Is Christ divided? 1Cor 1:13
I have a feeling that if we were to expand the superficial family metaphor, we would uncover some inconvenient deeper truths.
Not all children in a separated or divorced family would necessarily want the family reunited. Divorce generally happens for specific reasons. Children take sides depending upon the parent to which each primarily relates. There can also be sibling rivalries which cause children to prefer that their opposite sibling is with the other parent. In some cases, one parent is clearly at fault, or in other cases may be cruel or mean spirited. Children may not want to have a relationship with that parent, and would dread a family reunification.
Moreover, there is the question of individual nature. Often, children either idolize their parents, or secretly loath them. Some are neutral, analogous to what Scout would call "nominal" members.
Some children function best in a lenient environment, while others need a highly structured environment. Even in an intact family, children often shop between parents for the particular opinion they desire, which raises the question, "What is splinter surfing?"
So long as friends or
family members walk together, they generally grow in the same direction. Once that connection is broken, it opens the probability of growth in counter directions. These splinters have been functioning independently of one another, in some cases for decades, each claiming to be led by God's Spirit, yet growing in diverse, sometimes counter directions.
How do you resolve these issues when each believes they arrived at their present state of existence because that is where God led them?
I don't want to imply that God ever had anything to do with HWA, or the movement he started. However, if God did, it certainly appears from
biblical examples that God either pulled a "Tower of Babel" on Armstrongism, dividing and confusing their tongue (the loud voice of warning they once had), or a "Laodicia", spewing the splinters from His mouth as lukewarm and useless.
I don't see reunification happening. People would be better informed to look for the emergence of a new, break away super blessed group, not affiliated with Armstrong, not contaminated by the litany of bad baggage or utterly failed prophecy!
Agape? My mouth is agape when I ponder the blindness, arrogance and audacity of those men.
I would like to put this to our LCG ministers. Will you show this friendliness and good will to Mr. Bryce and the Enduring Church Of God? Will you reach out to Bob Thiel and the Continuing Church Of God? How about Sheldon Monson and the Church Of God Assembly, will you reach out to them for real? Will you reach out to them in a way that is truly sincere, something greater than collegial and that is truly, truly spiritual and of the Holy Spirit?
The prayer Jesus made in John was more than just spiritualizing things in a mushy way.
We should all be unified by the FAITH not the doctrines.
Ephesians 4;13 Till we all come in the unity of the FAITH, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
More like A- Gape of love between the groups. 11:05 that sound a bit right, He pulled a NT version of Tower of Babel, because it sure wasn't any roman system that broke these people up. They are not serious, they are not serious about God. As long as they have that British Israel dogma, they are not going far. "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah", but at the same time they believe that the scripture cannot be broken.
Christ is King!
Tank
12:33 Great comment!! It was too late for the good will to Raymond F. McNair of the Church of God 21st Century, But yea, these all left LCG and Rod Reynolds. The math isn't mathing. "Let's divide each other up, that way we will have a little strength."
Reminds me of politics.
Now Greenland needs to give the USA resources because the USA will protect it from imaginary enemies like China which has never attacked Greenland. And if Greenland says no, they get taken by force. By the USA.
It's a protection racket.
Now these churches operate in the same way. They "protect" their members from the "bad guys" in the other churches who will cause them to lose out on salvation.
Just keep paying tithes to the good guys and you are safe from the "enemy."
At least John Elliott tried. If the other groups turned him down, they'll have to answer to Jesus for it.
But it leads me to ask what Mr. Elliott would say if GCI paid him a visit.
Better yet, look for the faith delivered once for all saints. The old trusty Christianity
2:54, you're afraid that Greenland might be taken by the USA? You sound like you've been listening to the leftist Democrats and media. You haven't heard that Trump is trying to make a deal with the country? You haven't heard that Russia and China have been circling that area for some time, just as they were around Venezuela before the Americans struck? And that China has been all over the world trying to collect resources. A protectionist racket? Come on. This is secular politics. Greenland can be used as an early detection signaling base so that the bombs won't drop on your house.
But you're right about the ministers "protecting their members from the imaginary bad guys". Another Democratic party line.
Another poster noted the difference between unity of faith as opposed to unity of doctrine. Good observation. Not only can they not distinguish what the important doctrines are, they can't humble themselves enough to let truth come to the surface in a discussion. The more time they spend admiring their independant works, the less motivation they have in sacrificing it for the sake of unity.
But just before the Romans toppled the temple in 70 AD, the Jewish priests were divided into 3 main quibbling sects.
7:24 And it sounds like you are on the Republican Party line.
You know when the American empire took Hawaii, Alaska and other places like Guam, it was in the late 50s in which we as a country were in a much better place. China didn't have to colonize nations and get into a bunch of wars to get back where they were before their century of disappointment. Look at where American citizens are today as this administration wants to get Greenland and Venezuela which has nothing to do with helping the American citizens. We think, if China wants to get back Taiwan it's somehow a problem, but if America takes Greenland its "white and I say so." So I'll have agree to disagree with you on the geopolitics.
But on the 'unity of the faith', that's a great point you both bring up. And you can find quite a few examples in the NT where the apostles have this unity of the faith while their ministries were different. But one thing all armstrongist groups agree on just like the left and right wing of politics, and that's who Israel is and what is best for Israel and BI.
Why would they want to reconcile? Strawman argument. Does Evangelisim want to reconcile with Baptists? Catholics with Methodists?
Why would LCG or COGWA want the issues UCG bring? Or vicer versa.
COGWA already operates an welcoming open door policy towards other COG members, especially UCG and LCG members.
UCG likewise has the same towards other COG groups, even GCI members.
So what's with the complaining? Has any of the commentators or authors ever really crossed church boundaries ? Experienced the different cultures within the COG? For those of us who have, these negative posts rarely ring true.
Greenland has one American military base already, and an agreement with Denmark that we can establish more. We also have current access to the resources, although it is not an exclusive arrangement. With global climate change having recently opened up new shipping lanes through the North Pole, Greenland has become a very strategic property, much the same as the Strait of Gibralter, Strait of Hormuz, or the Panama Canal. However, what is unfolding presents another point of similarity between the 1930s and 2026. We knew events such as this were going to be occurring as the talk of and surge of nationalism began to supplant the post WW-II era of global cooperation which some are actively attempting to abolish.
When I started attending services in the late 1970s, I gave every member the benefit of the doubt, as if they had committed to the ten commandments. But I discovered that with few exemptions, they were no different to the people at work. Any differences were cosmetic. So just like in the workplace, people gyrate to their to their various groups. If you're an outsider to any group, they'll try to exploit you. Endless church articles about members being brothers and sisters is misleading and hides this sad truth.
Here we go again, another round of picking on Aaron and UCG. It's pretty hypocritical that the UCG ministers on here continue to bash the church while taking a paycheck. If you despise the church so much, why don't you leave? You sneak around on here thinking we haven't caught on to what you are doing! We see you and know who you are! Fools!
Would you please tell us who we are, 1:04? I 've been here since the beginning, and do not know of any UCG ministers posting trashy comments about their own ACOG. Name names! Otherwise you are just pulling all this stuff from your arse!
11:44, I'm one of those who crossed church boundaries. So did King David who fled to the Philistine side when he was being hunted by one of his own. They all have an open door policy until they don't like you on the basis of misinformation (i.e. the sin of defamation) that is superficially given and received. It's easy to be nice to someone who doesn't know anything or is gullible. But it is hard to put your fear of men aside when a brother comes to you in need of support. Everyone is willing to do some good but only to a point and not any further, which isn't good enough. Look at what Christ said about the Laodiceans, that it's not good enough to be "in-between", sitting on a compromised solution. So what if a UCG local pastor is graciously receiving a LCGite or COGWAite when he is driving a hard bargain with his own members and resisting reconciliation. All it takes for Satan to dismantle a church is to seize a regional pastor (with high authority) with a false testimony who then makes all the other lackeys to fall in line, i.e. when he declares a lie, all the rest follow (because a minister is always right and a lay member is always wrong and under suspicion) I saw this coming 30 years ago, knew that it could happen, saw it happen, and dealt with it as a fugitive on the run. I was like an actor playing a game while the elders scrambled around for cover trying to pin me with a label.
So there is no complaining, 11:44, until the devil comes along to lodge a complaint with you.
11:53, the difference is faith but they need works to support it, for faith without works is dead, meaning that they need more scourging and disciplining from the Lord to get to that point.
I wonder. Would the results be better next time if John Elliott takes Sam Kitchen and Aaron Dean with him?
Bad Era
So far, after forty years (40 years), it looks like the Laodicea era of the church has only been able to split and splinter and not grow at all.
The only thing that is growing is the number of heresies and the number of splinter groups.
The splinter groups try to put on a good show by praising themselves in all their babblings and scribblings, but the real “acid test” is when you actually go to them and see how the people there really behave, from top to bottom. It is never good.
This is a fascinating situation! The COG bigs know that the people want to unite but these leaders think they know better... they think that three hall rentals in the same cities, and three pastor salaries, and three lone voices, calling out in the wilderness is the best way for the "true church" to roll.
These all powerful leaders are not concerned about the feelings of the people, they turn a cold shoulder to being good stewards of the people's hard earned and too generously given tithes and offerings, and outright dismiss being one in Jesus or working efficiently to share his gospel.
The COG leaders appear to be putting their claim to power within their own tiny kingdoms above the people, the gospel mission, and Jesus.
This should be a very instructive message to the people. Endless focus groups and mission clarification exercises are not needed when common sense is squashed.
Would it be wrong to hold your tithes and offerings in an interest bearing account until your COG overlords learn to act mature, responsible, and sensible?
Correct, they sell you on "the church is a spiritual organism" and were all a spiritual family. All that sounds wonderful and nice, but then that mask comes off. I have gotten to know a few genuine members but they are far and few between. They gossip, try and boss you, brag, or may be condescending just like coworkers.
Lies.
Not 1:04 but you've all suddenly dropped your mulitude of various fake names, that you love to write long back stories. Suddenly being anonymous isn't a crime.
What's this about fake names, Robbo?
Robbo?
Think about the tithes and offerings to worldwide, where did it end up in the end? All that money. All ones money is going to a divided group of ministers. Some companies merge when they want to reach a common goal. Not these guys, these guys are too important. "Come out from them and be separate." Although it would be kind of strange looking at David Pack standing next to Gerald Weston singing songs together. Brother Love WWF
Each of the splinter groups is its own little gravy train for those who lead them. The redundancy of doing everything in triplicate puts food on the table for the leaders, and acts as their retirement plan. Not a single one of these groups has exhibited the specialness of a breakaway, super-blessed group, the one that grows to noticeable proportions and can get the end times message out with power and accuracy. This is why we link them with the very memorable sayings of Gamaliel.
I suspect none of them are willing to give up their perceived power and prestige to actually work with one another. All the poorly printed banners in the meeting room cant hide that.
Trooisto, Sunday, January 25, 2026 at 7:36:15 PM PST, wrote:
“This is a fascinating situation! The COG bigs know that the people want to unite but these leaders think they know better... they think that three hall rentals in the same cities, and three pastor salaries, and three lone voices, calling out in the wilderness is the best way for the "true church" to roll.
These all powerful leaders are not concerned about the feelings of the people, they turn a cold shoulder to being good stewards of the people's hard earned and too generously given tithes and offerings, and outright dismiss being one in Jesus or working efficiently to share his gospel…”
******
Very interesting advice for so many hirelings of the former WCG who got upset, because they thought Joe Tkach Senior was in the process of derailing their WCG "gravy train."
These former hirelings, who "magically" re-credentialed themselves (It was WCG policy under HWA and Joe Tkach Sr that one is no longer credentialed once they left the WCG organization), should perhaps revisit what God inspired Peter to tell elders of God's Church:
I Perter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
:3 Neither as being lords over [God s] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."
They all appear to receive lots of mammon for whatever they do, but they should not be lords or overloads of God's Sheep. They're supposed to be guides of God's heritage.
HWA wrote the following advice, from a January 1957 Good News article about "Christ Did Put Authority and RULE in His Church", to the elders:
"...Does God's RULE in His Church give
ministers authority to intervene even in
affairs of the personal life of members?
The answer is, YES, but of course rarely,
and only in extreme cases where this is
necessary. ..."
That kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Why not? Services last only about 2 hours every week. That's 2 hours out of 7 days, or 2 hours out of 168 hours. That's about only 1.2 % of each member's time. The minister has control at services for a very short period of time, and to think that some "managers" may be receiving annual pay near $100,000/year (+/-). And WCG was to be a tax-exempt organization, serving the brethren, most of whom made so much lower wages.
And then, there are triplicate things done in some cities?
Do the modern-day hirelings believe they are anything like God's shepherds of old?
Ezekiel 34:5 "And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them].
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them."
What might God think today about those hirelings professing to be part of God's Church?
"You're fired?" Anything like what Ezekiel recorded? Like "kicking some can down the street?"
Time will tell...
John
I for one would not want to see these groups reunite. Some of them are led by absolutely awful human beings, toxic and cancerous to the core. I worship where I do not because of who leads our church, but because of who does not!!!
I personally hate all this unity talk. It's in the bible, but in ACOGs culture
it's a code word to fake reality and pretend that we're all great pals, which we are not. Being punished for being authentic is the norm in toxic family systems. It's no surprise that the commies have pushed this "unity" for decades.
The apostle Paul wasn't even "unified" (in your definition of being together in everything) with other apostles. So what chance does a gang of spoilt suited and booted 21st Century men have ?
Even Herbert couldn't be in unity with his own flesh and blood son.
This talk is of church organisational unity, which is not only impossible by law, without one group dissolving but by character too. The disfunctional Armstrong dynasty influence seeped into the AC grads and through them the church in all it's forms.
Must be that all these groups are shrinking and they don’t want members to realize that this “work” is shrinking and that it can’t be of God. If they combine and cooperate, perhaps it’ll continue to be a self sustaining system providing tithes and offerings for the hirelings that come after. They need members to be distracted and continue to have blinders on.
Mass crowds and high numbers doesn't equal approval from God. Jesus is considered to have only 120 followers at the time of his cruxifiction.
Christ crucified was the plan from the beginning and drawing a multitude from all the nations. It pleased God to bruise Him and it was why He endured the cross. This isn’t about a tiny number of special chosen people chosen to rule a physical kingdom for 1000 years before the rest of humanity got its chance to obey a pared down covenant. Armstrong preached a completely false gospel.
They are split in part due to no doctrinal unity. For instance GTAs group doesn't believe in the place of safety, while RCMs group does believe in the place of safety. GFs group believed that Armstrong finished the work, while others don't. UCF group doesn't believe in one leader at the top, while other groups believe in that type of governmental structure.
Philippians 1:18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (NIV)
Correction!
The various groups from CGI do not believe in PETRA as the place of saftey.
Amongst CGI groups as other COG groups there is various differences in doctrine. Some in CGI believe in God protecting them, others a specific area unknown at this time, others the Mount of Olives splitting in two right before Jesus returning. CGI is a mixed bag of thoughts and ideas as other groups are.
11:44, I didn't even use/type the name PETRA, I just wrote "place of safety." And that's basically what I just wrote, you are agreeing to what I just wrote. No need for correction! No, LCG believes in a place of safety.
I well know from personal experience that the leaders of some of these various groups do gossip and trade information about people. Gerald Weston of LCG and Bill Watson when he was in CGI for just one example. And Gerald Weston and the higher ups from cogwa as well. Once they have their minds made up about you, even when they are wrong, then that's it. and their approach offers no room for growth and repentance when the member who goes from one group to the other is repentant. So either way, the ministers are right even when they are wrong, and the member is always wrong no matter what even when they are right or misjudged. I remember when cogwa was formed when it was separating from UCG, and Gerald Weston, ever the money guy, had sent out one of his tendrils to Graham Marshall. Mr. Marshall was having none of Weston's overtures.
Old news tbh. No church friendship ties stronger than the old Ambassador College ones.
Them and us rule. Leaders & Members. Elite and Idiots. In. Every. COG.
Members are not allowed to retain friendships with members in other COG groups, the spies are sent to observe and pester to make sure...but since even the 1970s very bitter splits A.C. friendships across splits amongst the Ministry went on.
Who the hell is Rod Reynolds?
11:03 said that Paul wasn't unified with the other apostles, Not true, they were united in spirit on their missions, only disagreeing administratively with re to Mark. Look at 2 Tim 4:11 and compare it to Acts 15. At the end when Paul is in Rome and running out of manpower he advises Timothy to bring along Mark, so there were no hard feelings carried forward by him, unlike today where it has become standard practice. (Gerald Weston disfellowshipped me by email all of a sudden. The pastor who baptized me told me to go away even though I still tithe to his church)
Right, the unrighteous elites are ruling right now but once they get judged for their sins as David was for his, they will lose their kingdoms and come begging. Then there will be no more bootlicking and lackeying to the elites when pastors have to depend on the minions to support them. Then allegiances will turn from the corporate logo to the groundskeepers. And there will be less slander taken up against their brethren.
I'm 11:03 eh 11:45? Is the book of Galations being thrown out now? Along with Revelation? And any differing opinion? Do you wish scripture was still in Latin ? And only in the hands of a few?
The Apostle Paul had a very public falling out with the Apostle Peter, as recoded in New Testament scripture of the book of Galations.
Paul was livid with Peter and the Jewish friends of the Apostle James from the Jerusalem church. They had refused to eat at a church gathering with gentile Christians and has astonishingly influenced the Apostle Peter (of all people) to not sit with gentile Christians, but make a fool of himself and moved to sit with only the Jews to eat.
It caused uproar and a livid Apostle Paul openly rebuked Apostle Peter for hypocrisy. Peter had moved away from the gentiles because he was fearful of the pro-circumcision jewish fraction in the Jerusalem church. It had created a social divide and was against the beliefs of the early church- that circumcision was no longer required for males.
The Antioch event demonstrated a major early tension between the strict Jewish perspective ad the gentile- inclusive mission Paul was spearheading.
Galations 2:11 clearly shows Apostle Pauls own concerned words : " For certain men came from James, he was eating with the gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabus was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before them all, "If you, though a jew, live like a gentile and not like a jew, how can you force the gentiles to live like Jews?".
4:26, just because Paul rebuked Peter at Antioch doesn't mean that there was a "public falling out". You are reading your skepticism into it when it isn't there. These were apostles -- not silly women involved in a catfight. This is what the apostles are supposed to do, i.e., correct immoral behaviour before it catches fire. Gal 2:11 is better translated, "it was to be noted or known about", this exclusion from the gentiles on the basis of cultural bias. This kind of behaviour happens all the time.
It is widely recognised by Biblical scholars that tensions existed between the early Jerusalem Church, including Peter and James and the direction and force the Apostle Paul was evangelising in.
The circumcision party problem was not immoral behaviour.
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