From a reader:
The good old boys network at COGWA is still alive and well. Doug Horchak, who was Ministerial Services Operation Manager, has been given the international position that Leon Walker had, leaving his position open. Yesterday, the announcement was made that all the "administration" in Texas agreed the Dave Myers was the perfect replacement. I guess Dave just got an "atta boy" endorsement for calling about Aaron and Mary Henderson on social media for calling him out on social media. I was reminded of one of the things in the COGWA bylaws that made my blood boil at the time and still does (because it was read during the announcements). Anyone serving as an operations manager must have (pg 18 of the attached bylaws):
The least amount of time that I saw was 15 years (for the president). What is truly astonishing about this and seems to be lost on everyone in TX is that Jesus and the 12 apostles would be not eligible to fill any of their administrative positions. There is something really wrong with that.
A recap of the Facebook reaming that Dave Myers got earlier this year:
He posted:
Any time a pastor has to ask a person not to fellowship with the flock due to such things as doctrinal disagreement, causing division, derogatory accusations, or the like, it is a sad and heartrending time for that pastor (and many others). He hopes and prays with all his heart that the person will come to see themselves accurately and be able to change their way. His action is done out of love to spur the person to deeply examine themselves and help them to change. The mantle of shepherding in these instances is quite heavy and frankly, unpleasant. If the person does not accept this loving correction, sadly, social media provides a platform for the supposed 'offended' to tell their story widely - from their perspective - which is usually found to be quite 'slanted' and often just plain inaccurate. Good-hearted people can read these 'posts-of-the-offended' and be misled as to what actually went on. Some might think, "If their post doesn't reflect what really has happened, the pastor would defend his action by posting the truth, wouldn't he?" But consider this: I, for one, am thankful that the 'church' does not post its 'side' of the story revealing all the details as to why this painful action has had to be taken. Love and respect for the person being 'disciplined' means that the 'church' would not reveal their personal problems or lay out all the ugly details that led to this necessary action. We all know that the scripture teaches "Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins" (Proverbs 10:12) and "He who covers a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates friends" (Proverbs 17:9). So you will not read the pastor's 'rebuttal' because he loves the person and does not wish to 'air their dirty laundry.' So, a pastor does not post on social media, but rather, prays that the 'offended' comes to his senses and is able to repent. I hope this small window into the shepherd's mantle of responsibility is helpful.
After the usual kissing of loyal members, the negative reactions were swift so much so that he shut downtime conversation. After all, how dare ANYONE ever question the actions of a minister!
This is what we previously wrote about the story:
A Response to Dave Myers - Take it to the presbyteros or take it to the ekklesia?
God hates Division - The couple Dave Myers is upset about
How God Moved Us Out Of The Church (COGWA)
COGWA's Dave Myers Talks About How Heavy His Shepherds Mantle Is When He Has To Disfellowship Members And Then Watch Them Get On Social Media And Tell THEIR Side Of The Story.
Some of those reactions to Dave Myers post above (with names deleted)
I can’t imagine how hard it must be.
I have seen this heavy responsibility on our pastors many years ago when I witnessed the attacks on a minister who had to put someone out. The people verbally attacking the minister had absolutely no idea of the gravity of the situation.
Try doing what Christ said to do in Matthew 18. The authority to remove does not lie with you but with the congregation. It is way past time that we quit ignoring the scriptural admonitions in favor of our traditions.
there are a lot of people that would like to cast the first stone! So are you sure you would want the whole congregation knowing everything about you?
Are you sure that you would like to ignore the admonition of Christ as to how to handle sin?
I am trying! Be aware the snare of the righteous!
You are trying to ignore the admonition of Christ? Tell me where in the scriptures you picked up this pearl of "wisdom?"
"Be aware the snare of the righteous!"
People who know and understand the path to regaining a brother who is sinning are much less likely to do those things that would cause Matthew 18 to be invoked. Failure to use that procedure creates the problems that we have experienced in the Churches where "headquarters" people ride into congregations, shoot the place up figuratively, leave the brethren bleeding, and the ride off into the sunset in their own righteousness. It is way past time that we started doing what Christ said to do instead of leaning on tradition.
the snare of righteousness would be the leaven of the Pharisees. Thinking they are righteous when indeed they were not. We shouldn’t divide over doctrinal issues but focus on the main thing which is Christ in us and loving one another. The enemy loves to divide us over the twigs on the branches and get our eyes off the trunk who is Christ. Focus the congregation on Christ rather than doctrine and the enemy won’t be able to cause division
Might have been Paul! Regardless what if it is there and you are ignoring it? If you think you are something when you are nothing then you receive yourself! In 1st or 2nd john
We agree but this string was about the problems with removing someone from the congregation by a pastor who then is limited in a public response. There is no doubt that these problems exist. The problems have been further compounded by the leadership of the Church taking to themselves authority that was not granted to them but to the Church/congregation. Had David Myers made sure that Matt 18 was the process, the publicity would have been on the one sinning for not repenting, i.e., they refused to repent and so step three brought the publicity. Then the congregation does not have to wonder whether the one removed was wronged by the pastor. The congregation itself would have put the person out.
Find it for us since you "quoted" it. Yes, if anyone thinks that they are something they have forgotten to look into that spiritual mirror and don't realize who they are. However, none of this helps the situation described by David Myers above. The solution is to follow what Christ said because HE knows best--and you don't.
I wholeheartedly agree with you!! I was born and raised in the church and have never witnessed the ministry (or the members) correctly following the Matthew 18 protocol for handling disagreements within the congregation as Scripture lays out.
Steps are: 1) go to your brother one on one to try to discuss. 2) if that doesn't work, bring in a few witnesses 3) if that doesn't work, take it to the ekklisia, the congregation (not the ministry!) in hopes for reconciliation! (Not condemning!) If it can still not be reconciled, the person causing the issue is to then be removed and treated as a non-believer (yes, even the minister, if he is the one at fault!)
Problem is, the ministry thinks they are the sole authority above all other members and are above this instruction found in Scripture. As you said, Royce, if someone truly did need to be removed, they should have gone through ALL 3 steps FIRST, and if it ended up needing to go to that last step, it would have allowed BOTH parties to share their side before the whole congregation, so there wouldn't be any question of what was going on, nor would there be any secrets for rumors or gossip to spread, because the brethren would know what was going on.
It would also allow the ENTIRE congregation to support and pray for the situation, not just the minister in secret, creating a higher chance for redemption for the person in question. It was never the responsibility of the ministry to make these decisions alone.
And the ministry themselves should never be exempt from the process when they're the one in a disagreement with one of their members. If a minister and one of his members have an issue, that minister needs to go through the 3 steps as well, and if it makes it to step 3, that minster should be held accountable by the brethren. But we just don't see that happening in the COG's, and it's quite concerning. It needs to change. I am with you, brother!
Nothing says the witnesses are mediators. They are witnesses that the offended brought the problem to the offender and whether or not the offender repented...nothing more is said by Christ. We need to be careful not to add to His words.
thanks for pointing that out!
need to be careful and listen to his words! I don't see a whole lot of mercy these days! If you can judge and show mercy , love at the same time I say well done.
Actually, what you speak of doesn’t have anything to do with expulsion. Matthew’s text is about offense and the translations defer on what going to the church actually means. What this relates to is more like 1 Cor 5. It involves taking the other brethren with you on the path of dissension.
you need to reread the third step in light of the outcome should the sending party refuse to repent. All Church matters where there is a problem between two individuals should be dealt with as a Matthew 18 procedure. Matthew 18 says, simply stated, if your brother commits an offense against you go in privately and try to work it out. This makes certain that both sides of the problem have their minds right. If one doesn't have their mind right that's when you need to bring in witnesses to see what's going on. It doesn't matter what the problem is, it should be dealt with in this simple way. The final step is a shunning or putting out. That should be the last resort and only made by a congregation, not somebody who thinks they're an authority over other people instead of a servant to the flock. This is not to cast any aspersion on Dave Myers or any other minister. It is the point out a problem and how people who live in the church set things up. And, people all too easily I will only turn over their responsibilities for someone else to do. That's how we got in this situation to begin with. They want somebody else to fix the problem instead of stepping up to the plate and going to their brother and working the problem out. Anyway I don't want to get sidetracked, but we don't need people ruling over us and taking authority into their hands that should be ours and that we should handle. Paul even wrote about some of the brother who are taking matters to court rather than deal with it internally. This internal dealing with problems is the very Matthew 18 procedure that Christ gave us. This is the procedure we ought to be using when we have problems in the congregation, not dumping our responsibilities onto a pastor or any other minister.
How truly sad and difficult!
That's why we are to pray for you. God's support for the ministry is something that none of us can do without.
A pastor consults with several other parties and gets advice and is a group decision and not just the decision of one pastor alone.
Being a pastor has to be one of the most toughest jobs you'll ever love. Praying for you Mr Myers.
Thank you Mr Myers our prayers are with you.
Well lately it's been the ministry who has split the flock and sowed discorce. They have also stepped outside doctrine and made decisions about people's individual choices and made them feel guilty for their own lives.
Rightly so. Members have no power but only those who have access to the pulpit sowing division and creating new organizations. I have witnessed such a heartbreaking incident in 2010 when some elders lambasted ministers whom they claimed as dissidents.
Yes. Making decisions of what we can do on our own time is not okay. I don't mean sinful behavior, I mean the things we are led to do by the Holy Spirit.
Some are corrected for doing GOOD. Bible Studies in the home, you name it.
If we only had Adonai's eyes!! Things are so much bigger than an organization.
Things are really happening. We cannot stand in the way of people's spiritual gifts and Purposes in Him.
I know a handful of loving humble people that were told NOT to do beautiful Spirit led things.
and no, they weren't gossiping about it.
That’s one of the biggest drawbacks in a monolithic organization.
Monolithic is one exhibiting or characterized by often rigidly fixed uniformity. The council in Sanhedrin is an ideal example. They were not concern about preaching the Truth ( for they crucified the TRUTH)and unconcerned about people’s salvation. In verse 48, of John 11, “ If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place (position) and our nation."
Their fundamental concerns are control and their position.
The church as a carnal organization has made a lot of mistakes throughout the years. The Church of God is a spiritual organization led by Jesus Christ our savior. I am 100 percent subject to his authority. I cannot always agree with the decisions made from the pulpit when it goes against my moral values, which are biblically based on the teachings of Christ. You can only have one master either Christ or moral man. I choose Christ!
I amin agreement
Crystal clear and very well stated.
Frankly, none of us know what happened. Both sides of an issues have always disturbed the COG community. I can be sorry for both sides if this issue, without “taking sides” in the debate. Let it go people…
Our entire society is infected by a spiritual virus that has invaded the Church of God. That is "no one is going to tell me what to do." We in the Churches of God need to be correctable. And that's biblical.
yes, we all need to be humble and teachable...members and ministry alike.
So so very true.
We must remember or understand that God's Church is not a democracy. God's Church is lead from the top - God the Father, Jesus Christ down...not from the bottom up. There could be some matters that should be brought to the attention of the members...and there are other issues that should not. That is a prayerful judgement call by the ordained ministry. We individually need to make sure that we are working our OUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
Matthew 23, “Then Jesus said to the multitudes and to His disciples,…. Dropping down to verse 8, “But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all BRETHREN .”
Then, verses 10-11, “10 And you must not be called masters (leaders), for you have one Master (Leader), the Christ.
11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant.”
It’s in the same chapter whereupon Christ pronounced the 7 woes against the so called religious leaders in Israel.
What about the instructions for how to deal with issues within the church found in Matthew 18:15-17 :
“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin against you, go and show him his fault — but privately, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. If he doesn’t listen, take one or two others with you so that every accusation can be supported by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to hear them, tell the congregation (not the ministry); and if he refuses to listen even to the congregation, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector."
You are in my prayers and for our church.
Mary Henderson
Would you please speak openly and use our names? It's me and my husband Aaron Henderson. Thank you for sharing this and making the conversation bigger. We love you all.
I love you so much!!!!
Will pray about this situation
I have no idea what this post is specifically about.However....
Brothers and Sisters,
Our Abba wants a rising of Holy Soldiers...
This is so much bigger than organizations..
There are 5 Red hieffers, Abrahamic Family House just opened (Google it all)
Do some Brethren cause discord? Of course. The problem with churches is there are people in it.
What I do know is there have been Spirit LED Brethren over the years that aren't "allowed" to do many things. Bible study at home, have family retreats and humbly discuss things that aren't in a COG booklet.
In SOME ministers and Congregations there is a spirit of control. (Not speaking of this one as I've not been there for many years)The Holy Spirit doesn't control it guides.
The Holy Spirit has been guiding many brethren and it doesn't always fit into the COG rules but it doesn't mean Adonai is not the one that leads and guides them.
Interestingly, sometimes we as humans can inadvertently squash the Spiritual Gifts and God led Purposes of individuals...and it makes the job of THE ENEMY a lot easier.
When you must choose: Follow the gentle guide of the Holy Spirit or the control of man, always choose The Lord Almighty!
What if, as in many cases, the pastor is wrong? Does that person get to tell the congregation not to associate with the pastor?
as we have had church splits, we know that we are to prove all things ourselves. Question the teaching and do your personal best to make your decision.
To vilify one human is wrong. The pastor tries to uphold the church teachings and not vilify the one being asked to leave.
I left WCG. I left UCG. We chose our physical leaders. We can have conflicts with our physical leaders. But we each must be able to do the Bible study and pray for each other for proper guidance.
If you feel the pastor is wrong, pray for him. Pray for your personal guidance in dealing with this matter. When the truth is revealed, it will be awkward for someone. Pray that it is not awkward for you.
(My personal experience and mindset. I’m thankful for those that I trust that I can ask for physical guidance as well.)
you didn't need to write all that nonsense. You could've just said you don't know how to answer the question.
to me it’s not nonsense. Thanks anyway for your feedback
answer the questions. If the pastor is wrong, does the person who isn't wrong, get to demand the people shun the pastor?
And why don't you just pray for them instead of shunning them, if it's not the pastor? You know, like you say the congregation would, if the pastor was wrong?
I understand this fully. I have seen both sides. I can say that it is confusing when a person is originally put out. The person usually has a front that is a mask over the issues that caused the decision. Once the person is comfortable, the truth will surface.
I am aware of one example where the person was not honest and I became aware of the whole situation after the decision to remove the member. I can definitely see why that one was not allowed in the congregation. (I can think of several people who would say this refers to them).
It’s never an easy task. I’m sorry for the heartache the whole situation causes. It destroys relationships and makes us question our own choices.
The Bible says that many will fall away. Some people try to take away the faith of others as they go.
So much love! Let's get this issue out there people! Matthew 18 says tell it to the Church! (Before you disfellowship someone).
Ohhhhh NOW I know the individuals David J. Myers is talking about. It doesn't take much. I remember great public venting regarding other couples in sermons and everyone knew who was being criticized.
Brothers and Sisters: Mary Henderson and Aaron Henderson are humble, loving, serving, Spirit LED children of the most high.
Do NOT be deceived children of God.
Pride and Control is alive and well in some authoritative leaders in some congregations/organizations.
Wait, I keep reading the part of not posting on social media IN a post on social media...
Was Matthew 18 used? In lieu of this post I reckon things will now become public. It's sad it has to come to this.
Truly a beautiful Godly couple
I am allergic to Religious Fanaticism!
I won't say anything. Just makes me to want to stay away from religious people including ministers.
Christ said go the extra mile, give your coat, turn the other cheek. Paul said rather be wronged, Peter said take it patiently. EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE BEEN WRONGED, FACEBOOK IS NOT THE PLACE TO COME AND DISCUSS IT! Which is what I saw this posting to be about! Anything else is plain wrong!!!
I’ll add this: if you are on your knees, praying to our Father to inspire and direct the Ministry and the pastors in carrying out their incredibly difficult ministrations, you don’t have the time to point fingers.
Nothing will please the Adversary more than dragging the Church into mini disagreements that keep us from the commission of preaching the gospel, and preparing a people.
May the Father be pleased to save us.
As the end of the age draws closer...more and more of the brethren become easily offended. This is when it is extremely important to draw closer to our Father in prayer and fasting for spiritual discernment. It certainly is not easy for the ministers at this point in time. But ultimately it is the responsibility of each individual to make things right in the eyes of the Lord. Reprimands are necessary for the growth of the body of Christ to prepare us for eternal life. Human nature is our enemy that we must overcome so we can have agape love that draws us closer to our brethren. That's why we are to pray for the brethren everyday. We also must remember that ministers are human too and very capable of making mistakes just as we all are. We should never be quik to judge and condemn...but be ready to love and forgive as our elder Brother taught us to do.
Is it possible that people in Ministry roles will be "more and more easily offended"? I know this couple and they are doing beautiful Spirit led things. Matthew 18 matters.
it certainly is important to have love, patience, and grace towards one another, as well as forgive and not be quick to judge/condemn... and while we know that ALL brethren (ministers and members alike) will fall short, there are times when, as you said, reprimands are necessary, above and beyond just prayers, love, and forgiveness. Members will often seek ministers to help in that regard...but who keeps the ministers accountable when THEY need reprimanding? Oftentimes, the ministry gets final say without the members having a voice. Abuse, neglect, and overlording has been common among the COG ministry for generations. If the members do not have a voice to defend themselves, and the Matt 18 protocol is not being followed as it is suppose to be, then brethren are lost and the abuse continues. There needs to be a way to hold ministers accountable when they cross lines they are not suppose to cross.
anyone can fall into the trap of being easily offended. That's why we are to be on guard against the wiles of our adversary. Not one of us is exempt from this attack. If someone is unjustly accused of something... that's when we fall on our knees in prayer for guidance and understanding. We should remember the example that Christ gave us when He was nailed to the stake after being beaten and accused of wrongs. He prayed for the Father to forgive those who wronged Him. He did this out of love for them. We should be able to do the same for those that have wronged us.
This type of thing has been going on since I can remember. I have seen the COG split several times in the 40 some years I have attended. Prove all things to yourself. After all of the years I have attended, I still have many questions. Belittling ones curiosity is not a way to handle things.
Causing disturbance though is another issue.
