Awhile back Apostle Pack gave it his best shot at proving God's existence with his bombastic and self assured outdated, badly restated, greatly glitterated , memorized but not studied, copied and plagarized from creationist lit long ago negated but nicely mistated. His presentation was obliterated by Aron Ra leaving anyone with an interest in knowing if Dave knows what he is taking about, which he doesn't.
I have never seen a creationist argument out of a need to prove religious truths scientifically and with the scientific method, as they twist and manipulate it or don't even understand it, succeed. The conclusion is already believed and the "facts" are used to prove what they already know and can't not know to be true because it is religion, which cannot be proven to begin with but dare not be denied.
Religion is a function of faith not facts and as time goes on and on, the facts tend to obliterate that which used to be understood by faith. Science well done has not once reverted back to faith. Faith issues have often had to yield to scientific inquiry done well with good conclusions about the truth of a matter settling the matter with more details yet and always to follow over time. Is faith really just believing what deep inside you know or suspect probably isn't actually so?
"Ignor-ance is not only what you don't know, it's what you won't know"
Growing up Presbyterian, no one said and not once did I ever hear a sermon on "prove me now herewith and see if..." or "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good." They really had no big issues that needed that kind of attention. Is that really possible with issues of faith? If I had, I would have wondered just how do you do that anyway. Oh I know that archaeologists have tried to prove this or that event in the Bible but haven't done all that well and often these days, the opposite has been shown to be more the case. Cosmologist has show us just how insignificant egocentric humans are and those who do the hard work and study of human origins have laid the Adam and Eve myth to rest long long ago for those not threatened by the facts.
Everything religious is taken on faith is it not? "He that comes to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS...." Faith, as expressed in scripture leaves facts out of the mix. Is that not the formula we find in Hebrews 11?
"Now faith is the substance of what we hope for . The evidence of things not seen."
Is that not the same as saying ...
"Now faith is the substance of what we hope is true. The evidence of things for which we have no evidence"?
In WCG I was assured I could "prove" God's laws of tithing by doing it and seeing if the windows of heaven did not open up. Ummm......and ummmm.
There is not one conversation in the OT that I can prove in any real sense ever was actually spoken n by the person or even god that is said to have spoken it. There is not one person in the OT I can actually proved ever really existed. I suspect the Priests of that God got together and said, "Let's say this" or "Let's command that." Well trained archaeologists with everything to lose say no to Moses, Abraham, Solomon and possibly even David and that "we exaggerate and the Old Testament, as you call it, is a small cultic people giving themselves a large pedigree while in captivity."
(Israel Finkelstein Author of The Bible Unearthed, to me personally sitting at a picnic table at Tel Megiddo where he is the lead archaeologist)
Who knew what God said at creation? Who wrote down or knew the exact conversation Abraham had with Isaac alone before almost sacrificing him? Who knew the words of Jesus, alone in the Garden with sleeping disciples or what Pilate's wife told him in private? Who wrote down or knew the exact words of the long winded speeches of Stephen or of Jesus at the last Passover of which the other Gospels knew nothing? Are these not what some author imagined they would say so he said they said it for effect? It was a common writing style of the day.
Who knew what God said at creation? Who wrote down or knew the exact conversation Abraham had with Isaac alone before almost sacrificing him? Who knew the words of Jesus, alone in the Garden with sleeping disciples or what Pilate's wife told him in private? Who wrote down or knew the exact words of the long winded speeches of Stephen or of Jesus at the last Passover of which the other Gospels knew nothing? Are these not what some author imagined they would say so he said they said it for effect? It was a common writing style of the day.
I can't prove that God actually said what I have been told all my life "He" said. And while it's right there in the Bible, surely we can't think that settles it really? Maybe most do. I can't.
Does not "Prove me now herewith" and "Prove all things" really mean if you try really hard enough, you can reach the same conclusions and beliefs we already have come to for you in religion? Is not this cart before the horse and formula for "Well, it sure didn't work for us" and being the reason so many lose their faith, like that's a bad thing.
Did not Paul say "Let us all speak the same thing," not the same right thing but "that there be no division in the body." Is that the way to prove what is real?
It is God's privilege to conceal things and the king's privilege to discover them.
Proverbs 25:2
Aside from it being not just the privilege of the King but of everyone, what if the conclusions drawn thousands of years later are not what were expected of the King thousands of years ago?
Can you prove faith or any religious thought or belief?
That's not the nature of Faith or Religion is it?
Just asking....
(And I'm not "trying to destroy your faith" and try really hard not dismiss Aron's Epilogue to Dave's arrogant attempt to prove what he so badly didn't by noticing he has long hair. There is not a COG minister or writer who could stand up to his grasp of "the facts")
I personally believe, based on fact and hope perhaps, that humans are hard wired to be spiritual in their thinking. We have a sense of wonder and find ways to respect all we see around us and can't explain or couldn't at one time. I still find awe and wonder in weather but unlike Bob Thiel, do not find it caused by the gods or their way of "trying to get our attention." I find it to be high and low pressure facts.
To me, religion is what others, like a Dave Pack, Rod Meridith, Gerald Flurry and all the other one man truth dispensers hope I'll believe of them. It is what others pour into your head. What to believe, where to be, how much to give, what thoughts to think.
Spirituality is an inside job and organizations hate those who have spiritual perspectives. The spiritual are like cats who can neither be organized or herded into their seats. Dogs, who pray, pay, obey and stay populate organizations. They fetch, sit, roll over and beg for more.
Never thinking or ever really being able to come to proper conclusion about the absurdities their trainers like Dave Pack dish out because religious ideas can't really be proven and must be taken on some kind of faith until they no longer can be and the damage is done...
