Thursday, April 26, 2012

Dave Pack: Armstrongism's Least Educated Apostle?



Dave Pack has been trying for years now to let the world know what a highly intelligent man he is.  He is constantly being inspired by god with all kinds of revealed knowledge.  He runs the worlds largest church related internet site.  He produces more booklets and materials than any other Church of God.  On and on the list could go.  But just how "educated" is Dave Pack?  At least when it comes to chruch history.

Dave has been spending a lot of time lately spouting off about the Nicolaitanes.  There is the traditional educated view on who these people were and what they did and then there is the Dave Pack version.

Traditional views on the Nicolaitanes are:

Hippolytus of Rome states that the deacon Nicolas was the author of the heresy and the sect.[2] Several of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Epiphanius, and Theodoret mentioned this group. Irenaeus discusses them but adds nothing to the Apocalypse except that "they lead lives of unrestrained indulgence."[3] Victorinus of Pettau states that they ate things offered to idols.[4] Bede states that Nicolas allowed other men to marry his wife[5] and Thomas Aquinas believed that Nicholas supported either polygamy or the holding of wives in common.[6] Eusebius said that the sect was short-lived.[7]

The biggest strike against them is that the were believers in antinomianism:

Antinomianism (a term coined by Martin Luther, from the Greek ἀντί, "against" + νόμος, "law") is defined as holding that, under the gospel dispensation of grace, moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation.[1]
Although the concept is related to the foundational Protestant belief of Sola Fide where justification is through faith alone in Christ, it is taken to an extreme in antinomianism. It is seen by some as the opposite of the notion that obedience to a code of religious law earns salvation: legalism or works righteousness.

This is what many Armstrongite splinter cults claim that is wrong with those that do not follow the law. 

That is, until Dave Pack enters scene.  While he may still hold to part of that belief, he has added to it with his own interpretation. This is what Dave Pack claims Nicolaitanism is:
“In the New Testament, the followers of “Saint Nicolas” were referred to as Nicolaitanes. These people—falsely calling themselves Christians—honored Nimrod during the apostle John’s time—much as people do today!”.
Say what?

St Nicholas?

Nicolaitans are Santa Claus followers?

Can Dave really be serious?

Saint Nicolas was not even around during the time of the Nicolaitans!  But wait, good old Nimrod was, so that is how he connects Nicolaitans to Santa Claus or St. Nick.  Can the man truly be this stupid?

The All Knowing One writes:

Nicolaitane means “a follower of Nicolas.” It originates from the Greek words, nikos meaning “conquerer” or “destroyer,” and laos, meaning “people.” The original Nicolas—Nimrod (Gen. 10:8)—was a destroyer of the people. Nicolas is merely the Greek word for Nimrod. Within two centuries after the Flood, Nimrod had conquered the people and founded man-made civilization.
 While alive, Nimrod commanded his subjects to worship him in place of God. Even after his death, his followers continued to worship him as a divine heroic leader. He was called “Baal.” This name means “master” and “lord,” and is found many times in the Old Testament. This name describes the positions that Nimrod took to himself—to be considered Lord and Master of creation.
 But “Baal” was only one of Nimrod’s many names. Another one of his names, commonly used throughout Asia Minor, was “Santa.” Langer’s An Encyclopedia of World History explains further that “Santa Claus” is a shortened form of “Saint Nicolas” or “Santa Nicolas.”

In the New Testament, the followers of “Saint Nicolas” were referred to as Nicolaitanes. These people—falsely calling themselves Christians—honored Nimrod during the apostle John’s time—much as people do today!
The sad part in all of this is that the sheeple in his cult will actually believe this without ever researching it.  He knows it too.  As long as he claims God revealed that to him they will swallow it.

I am glad to see that Ambassador education has finally paid off!  Way to go big guy!


14 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yes he is. Although he'd be a close match with Ron Weinland.

If Mr. "I turned down the Naval Academy to go to Ambassador," ever had a public chat with:

Bart Ehrman
John Shelby Spong
Robert Price
Dan Barker
Karen Armstrong
Elaine Pagels
or a thousand other Biblically literate scholars, he'd be finished off in short order.

COG ministers spin the same cut and paste , here a little , there a little tale and have no clue how much energy they are wasting on their personal fairy tale.

One of the reasons they refuse to educate themselves and consider that their decades long views may be inaccurate is that from their youth, they were sold the idea that they were special and could keep the same kind of life and death billions before them had to face at bay.

The worst thing in the world that could happen to such views is for them to have to consider them to be wrong. It is easier to claim persecution than to say "I was mistaken in my views."

Anonymous said...

He simply has his place among a long line of 'Least Educated Christian jerkwads'.

Davey is nothing special.

Just tune into TBN or Daystar or God-TV to see a bunch more of 'em.

DennisCDiehl said...

When you studied the "Harmony of the Gospels" at AC you listened to RCM read it to you and give mini sermons on the content. You never actually learned anything about the origins , contradictins and real authors of the Gospels or why they wrote them. Questions only got you in trouble.

When you took Old Testament Survey, David John Hill read the entire OT to you and we read it at home. Again. No background, no history, no context and no questions. But lots of funny spots.

Genesis 1-11 was a crazy class based on no real context, history, background , science or reality. That's the Nimrod Class where Santa Claus became the symbol of all things Nimrod and Nimrod the origin of all evil people even if there was no connection

Epistles of Paul were studied by having them read to you and mini sermons. No historical context, no controversy, no understanding of who Paul was or wasn't or the conflict in the texts between sparring groups. Paul both fell off his ass n met Jesus (Luke) or didn't and was called in the womb.(Galatians).

Dave Pack and all COG ministers have a typical Sunday School education in theology. You learned the stories and the drama but not the context or the obvious problems in the text.

You accepted the Gospels were harmonic, Paul's Epistles were all written by him, Adam, Eve, Noah and Nimrod really existed and the Genesis Flood was responsible for all the geology we see on earth today so don't even ask about evolution.

and so on....

I learned more reading "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" by John Spong and the Birth and Death of the Messiah by Brown in three months than in all my WCG theological "education."

Mish-Mash said...

Concerning the COG view of Easter, they said Semiramis descended to earth and popped out of an egg. Did anyone ever stop to think, that could never physically happen (unless you watch Ancient Aliens on H2), so it has to be a fairy story. Only Lady Gaga did that, and it was all special effects. Were they so advanced in the past that they had special effects? My point is, all the hullabaloo against traditions have very little basis in an actual event, so why have their panties been in a twist for over 70 years at the COG? They just gotta have something to rail at to make them different and special.

DennisCDiehl said...

Sooner or later, critically thinking fundamentalist (WCG/COG) ministers are going to have to face reality. The 6000 year old earth is 18th century theology.

Reading the old testament and thinking it has significance today is bronze age thinking.

Science well done has proven that life evolves and that humans have many hominid antecedents going back 1.8 million years. We share a common hominid ancestor 5 million years ago.

They will have to come to grips with humans coming out of africa 160,000 years ago. If they argue about it, send a cheek swab to the National Geographic Genome project for your personal route.

When they use the characters of Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah and perhaps even Abraham down to King David, they be "proving" their views in the same way we would prove witches because of Hansel and Gretel's experience.

We don't base our views on human orgins on Darwin who had the idea before any evidence. We base it on the last 40 years where more has been learned than in the previous 10,000

I only ever wanted to know the truth about whatever it was that needed to be found out. What a time to live in! We can learn more in a day than our parents learned in a lifetime .

The David C Packs, Ron Weinlands, Gerald Flurries and all the other small minded players in the world of Bible literalism are teaching Bronze Age Theology and Dark Age Science.

"Sit before the facts as a little child and be willing to have them take you to where they go no matter where they go..."

John said...

I actually read about the Nicolaitans last night from Blaine Bryan's blog that argued the word deriving from "nicos" and "layos" may mean "conquest," "dominancy" or "victory" added to "people." So in other words it would mean "overlords" or "conquerors of the people" and might have reference to "church government" within Christianity following an hierarchical, centralized model that can lead to abuse of the people (Matthew 20:25-28; 1 Peter 5:1-3; 3 John 9-10). Of course we don't see it in religion alone, but also in state governments as well. Anyway I'd much rather agree with this view than Pack's superficial interpretation.

Anonymous said...

Dennis, you talk about the AC classes and RCM and Hill, but did you take any from Ron Dart? If so, what did you think? Since leaving WCG, he has been outside the box, but what about when he was in WCG?

DennisCDiehl said...

I never did have Ron Dart for any classes. I believe he was overseas during my time. But when he spoke he was articulate and never dropped names . He , in hindsite, always seemed to be himself and was very sincere. Very intelligent man and his own thinker I believe. He was always very deliberate and thoughtful in his teaching. A steady and authentic guy it seemed.

DennisCDiehl said...

How much would change for minstry and life purpose if:

They finally understood the Book of Daniel was written to encourage the Jews during the 160's BC

The OT Prophets were often wrong.

The Book of Revelation was written to encourage the Jewish Christians (which is why it borrowed so much of Daniel) before 70AD and tanked as a failed prophecy when the city fell to Rome.

Cherubim and Seraphim are cobbled together from the zodiac creatures and represent Spring, Summer, Winter and Fall

The Gospels were not written by the names affixed and don't agree

Paul is the author of Christianity not any Jesus.

The order of the NT should be :
Apostle Paul's Cosmic Christ first
Gospels earth bound Jesus
Acts to make the connection and that the early church characters all worked together which they did not.

Paul had no use for Peter
Peter had no use for Paul
John had no use for Peter or Paul
James had no use for Paul
Paul had no use for Peter, James and John "reputed pillars," "who they are makes no difference to me, I learned nothing from them."
(Galatians)

What a sermon I'd love to give one more time!
Acts

Anonymous said...

Yes....definately the least educated Apostle but with the mostest ego.

Byker Bob said...

When Jesus didn't return as was vigorously promised and then furiously backpedalled upon back in 1975, I dumped the whole sorry mess of garbage. However, having been taught so much as fact, I still thought that much of the ancient history we were taught about paganism, pagan figures, and the infection of Christianity by these influences was basically true.

I had shelved a lot of this stuff, but when I began to revisit it due to many of the questions and actually accurate information presented on the internet, I was totally blown away by the nearly complete bogussness of the supporting materials with which we were presented. When you do your own due diligence, attempt to "prove all things", and carefully check history, you become aware that we were presented with a lying testimony, which is yet another huge reason why Armstrongism is totally NOT "God's true church"

People in the ACOG congregations would probably be disfellowshipped for presenting real facts that contradict the ACOG version, which is why ignorant people like David Pack continue to get away with teaching blatant inaccuracies and outright lies. It's seen as being an act of rebelliousness to even want to research all of this material on one's own, let alone to have a "voice" to set the facts straight. Basically, to do so is to doubt or want to contadict "God's Apostle". So, the wall is indeed quite thick and very high!

Purely and simply, Armstrongism is "religion". It's most certainly not an enlightened path leading to a personal relationship with God.

BB

DennisCDiehl said...

Good observations BB,

I would not think one could really have a spiritual experience, enlightenment or an expansive learning path by being a part of any organization.

Organizations are not into that kind of authenticity and freedom

Allen C. Dexter said...

Right, Dennis. Organizations have only one goal -- their self-perpetuatization. Pack is no different from any of the rest. If he doesn't keep rigid control, he knows the gig is up. It's keep 'em brainwashed or perish.

Byker Bob said...

Hermann Hesse wrote an amazing novel called "Siddhartha". The topic is enlightenment, and what endeared me to the main character was that at some point, he determined to seek enlightenment on his own, without the aid of a guru. Of course, there were various influences in his life following that decision, but no controlling gurus.

Excellent book. You can get through it in a couple of hours, and its a worthy read.

BB