When pigs start flying we will know Dave Pack is worth listening to.
Dave Pack, God's greatest gift to humanity, wants you to know that through much prayer and Bible study he discovered that he is a TRUE Prophet of God. Therefore, it is his duty to teach YOU that truth.
When pigs fly......
A final thought: Circumstances forced me to research and come to much more fully understand the office of prophet than anyone else today. This extensive process has allowed me to teach you the truth of that office—from the Bible and from what Mr. Armstrong taught. The result in part became the books I Will Send Elijah to Restore All Things and Is “That Prophet” Alive Today? – The Rise of False Prophets, as well as portions of The Government of God – Understanding Offices and Duties. Mr. Armstrong spoke often of how Christ had carefully trained him. All of this has helped prepare—train—me to understand how my office will someday interact with the two final prophets Christ will select and train within this Church!
So why is Dave blabbering on about this? He wants you to know that since he is a prophet that he is also an apostle. As an apostle the two witnesses will have to answer to him.
Over the decades in the Worldwide Church of God literally hundreds of men (and a few women) have descended on Pasadena or the church claiming they were apostles, prophets, or one of the two witnesses. Our latest morons to do this was Ron Weinland and his wife. But have no fear, Dave is here to complete that circle. His church, and his church alone will pop out the two witless witnesses. Oh happy day.......Think for a moment. During the period when the Worldwide Church of God was on track, none ever doubted that the Two Witnesses would come from inside it. No one thought for a second that they would come from any place outside where Christ was leading. No one ever speculated that they would come from Sardis, an era outside Philadelphia, let alone from any of the WCG’s many earlier little rebellious offshoots that had developed over time. Laodicea is in at least as bad and possibly worse shape than was Sardis when Mr. Armstrong left it. All of its groups are also in worse shape than the little offshoots of the liberal 1970s.
Yet, as we have seen, these two final prophets must also report to an apostle to be consistent with what the Bible reveals and Mr. Armstrong understood. This means that there must have been another apostle trained and sent at the end of the age, and that he must be in The Restored Church of God.
That is the case! This is a bold statement. Is it true? Make absolutely no mistake in this, regarding your personal responsibility to get the facts in this matter. It is for the reader to examine and determine the truth of this—to see whether Christ has given the office of apostle, based on the fruits, or if I have taken this office and authority to myself. What are the facts, the evidence, the proofs of such an office? You should demand such. Scores of thousands of God’s people once professed to know an apostle when they saw one. What, if anything, has changed your thinking? (You are encouraged to examine the sermon series in the Splinter Explanation Packet titled “21st-Century Apostle,” as well as those explaining the Watchman and Messenger roles.)
Let me repeat: I state without apology and with God’s authority that both of the Two Witnesses will be members of The Restored Church of God! There is no doubt! (Again, the popular theory that one will be Philadelphian and one will be Laodicean is silly at best, ludicrous at worst. Amos 3:3 declares this much!) It cannot be known whether these men are in The Restored Church of God yet, but if not, they will have to come here, and must do this well before the Tribulation, and well before learning they have been selected by Christ for great responsibility. We saw that I Corinthians 12:27-28 makes absolutely clear that they will not—actually cannot!—be given their offices when they are outside the Body of Christ!
13 comments:
DP can write all the books that he wants to. They aren't scripture and are mainly past ideas of the WCG and his current opinions. He wants you to read his books over and over, so you avoid reading the Bible.
"Scores of thousands of God’s people once professed to know an apostle when they saw one."
Actually this is far from true. As a church pastor at the time it was obvious that the average member and many ministers allowed HWA to say he was an Apostle, because either he or the relatively few true zealots pronounced it to be so. They didn't care one way or the other and it was not a case of recognizing one when they saw one.
The vast majority of average person tolerates the title game by the few as the over all church teachings about Kingdom , Resurrections etc ring more true than their past affiliations.
Titles among the majority were more a case of "who cares," "if you think so," "so what," as long as it did not cause real problems in some way.
The vast majority tolerated the stupid speculations on the place of safety, Petra etc...It was the few large mouthed zealots who spoke as if they knew.
Most tolerated Gerald Waterhouse came to hear him locally out of being expected to, kind compliance and respect for the local congregation. The few got excited that he was coming to speak. The many tolerated it with a rather "sure, fine, whatever you think," approach. A polite "we'll see" was the rule not the exception.
I promise you most of DCP's followers tolerate Dave's pronouncements. Most think his college plans are a waste of money IF we truly are in the end of the age and allow him wear whatever hat he wants, as long as he doesn't embarass , harass or seem really off his tracks to them.
Church members are not as agreeable as any minister thinks. They weight the worth of speaking up with nurturing their own personal hopes. They know they can stop tithing personally or vote with their feet anytime it gets uncomfortable or insane. Somew will do it sooner and far too many late in the game as we just saw with Ron Weinland. Zealots will regroup , rethink and rebound because of their absolute fear of what to think if not told what to think by an authority, real or fake, figure.
When one gets the impression one is not being taught but rather coerced, smoozed or talked into believing the validity of titles or ideas the leader has, it's time to walk away.
Remember, when your head and reasonings say yes but the churn in your stomach says NO, your stomach is telling you the truth...
Credibility zero.
Within the Armstrongist churches of God, Ronald Weinland is lower, but as for the others like Flurry, Meredith, Rittenbaugh -- it's a contest not worth having.
They know they can stop tithing personally or vote with their feet anytime it gets uncomfortable or insane.
Utter nonsense.
PKG (Pathetic Kook Group) members prove that wrong.
ACoG members don't seem to know anything.
Last night, the Holy Spirit told me that He will provide a new 4-barrel carburetor for my car which will enable me to drive faster to get to Sunday Services each Sunday, to hear the preaching of the Gospel of Homophobic Sperm-Lovin' Jesus.
Win!
Next, the Holy Spirit told me that He wants me to pitch a new reality TV show to FOX, called, "End Time COG Prophet Death Match" in which various COG prophets fight to the death in a cage to see who is the most prophety prophet.
After that, the Holy Spirit wants me to pitch another new reality TV show to FOX, called, "America's Got Assholes", in which the winning COG prophet will be pitted against Trinity Broadcasting Network's best prophetic figures like Hal Lindsay, Perry Stone, Sid Roth, Creflo Dollar, and Rod Parsley, in another series of caged death matches.
According to the Holy Spirit, the "America's Got Assholes" shows will be even bigger than The Bachelorette, and there will be more drama as the prophets whip out different versions of the Bible to attack each other with.
It's even rumored that Jesus will appear on a piece of toast in Episode 5 of "America's Got Assholes", getting stuffed down Joel Osteen's sickeningly-smiling throat, killing him, even while Jan Crouch gives him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, (but I don't want to reveal too much yet)!
Norm
Dennis said “Remember, when your head and reasonings say yes but the churn in your stomach says NO, your stomach is telling you the truth...”
I agree with much of what Dennis said. I question the idea that the average church goer (COG or otherwise) is oblivious of reality and incapable of thinking and reasoning as some seem to believe. There is a tendency for religious people to experience emotional feelings and under certain situations these emotions may affect their reasoning, but these emotions should be limited to the conditions that created them.
If this churning in your stomach is an emotional response it is not a dependable indication of telling being the truth. If the “head and reasoning” has been properly programmed it should override the unreasonable emotional responses that may be generated.
I believe the effort of WCG to go “mainstream” in religious beliefs failed factor in the fact that much of “mainstream” has evolved to the point that religion is viewed as an emotional experience and people may not relate it to intellectual reasoning.
The real thinkers were unable reprogram and reeducate fast enough to prevent what appears to me to be a total melt down of the system that had been built over the years. This is not necessarily bad, but it often creates different responses. Some attempt to patch up the old, some will attempt to rebuild using the old material, and others may scrap everything and try to build something entirely new. Who can say what the best approach is?
To say that “ACoG members don't seem to know anything” may be partially true, but we must consider that a lack of knowledge is not necessarily an indication of a lack of intelligence or a sign of being unbalanced.
If a person spends a little time watching TV and surfing the internet in other areas, they will find that the COG people are no “wackier” or “kookier” than the rest of the world today. At least these are some of my opinion.
"If the 'head and reasoning' has been properly programmed it should override the unreasonable emotional responses that may be generated."
This is one of the most prevalent misunderstandings. We like to think of ourselves as these enlightened, rational, beings, a la Adam Smith, but we are not. We are emotional animals. We are 2% rational and 98% instinct - just slightly more rational than a bird or a spider that builds its nest or spins its web based upon preprogrammed genetic coding. Yet we like to think of ourselves as 98% rational and 2% instinct. Reason simply does not have the power to override our gut instincts, even when we rationally know that our instincts are going to get us into trouble. Meanwhile, our ability to backwards-rationalize cannot be underestimated.
Anonymous said: “Reason simply does not have the power to override our gut instincts, even when we rationally know that our instincts are going to get us into trouble”
I cannot speak for everyone, but I believe there are at least a few of us that have enough self-discipline to control the emotions and develop intelligent responses when communication and / or actions are required. I do not know what gut instincts are presumed uncontrollable, but I do know the power of the mind is capable of controlling even those things that are vital to life. The problem I see is that a person may have no incentive to take charge of their life or they have been programmed to believe that such control is impossible. My approach has been that a person who does not take responsibility in managing their life will eventually find something or someone else controlling them.
ABE
Well, it's all well and good to theorize about our rationalizations and such, but the problem with the COG experience -- that is to say, the Armstrong experience -- over the decades stems mainly from the fact that the theological underpinnings were weak. The belief system they spawned was therefore flawed.
Of course people were no kookier in the COGs, as a whole. For the most part, the kookiness came from the "leaders." HWA, GTA, and the various jackboot lieutenants took things to extremes, and it filtered throughout the church(es).
Pack is an example of "extreme." I am who I am because I say I am, because, well, the only way what I'm teaching could possibly be true is if it is the way I say it is.
Blah, blah, blah. What a bore, and a boor.
As if we needed more evidence, here is yet another example as to why pathological liars are totally unreliable for spiritual guidance which would promote an eternal relationship with Father God.
Exaggerating is lying. Faking the gift of prophecy is lying. Continuing to repeat totally false church history, ignoring the solid evidence which has been presented to disprove it is lying. Continuing to teach false theories with racist and elitist overtones, even though they have been disproven by genetics, history, and the Bible itself, is lying. Taking on biblical titles without the witness of God to support those titles is lying. Teaching that oneself is the sole arbiter of what is in force today for God's people is lying.
The problem is that this collection of men who have set themselves up as leaders of the ACOGs are very convincing and authoritative liars. Someone once said, "Once you learn how to fake sincerity, everything else comes easily!"
BB
"Reason simply does not have the power to override our gut instincts, even when we rationally know that our instincts are going to get us into trouble."
That is a patently ridiculous generalization, Anonymous 6-1, 1:48 PM. I've spent the majority of my life overriding gut instincts with reason, and most of the other people with whom I've interacted have been very successful with this as well. We've also been successful in using reason to override our natural human emotions. That said, I've also met some folks who are simply battered about, driven by instinct and emotion, a state of mind which keeps them on the bottom of the proverbial food chain.
Your statement is very consistent, however, with Armstrongist theology, which tends to denigrate many of the capabilities of our God-given brains, and to create a need for ministers whom we were expected to believe had a double dose of God's Holy Spirit.
The writings of Paul in his various epistles ascribe more natural mental abilities to gentiles than WCG allowed for in HWA's followers. Willingly pursuing the atrophy of one's brain and mental capacities was one of the most damaging subliminals of Armstrongism.
It's responsible for all the ridiculousness reported here on a daily basis.
BB
BB
When I say that if you have a choice between the reasonings in you head and the feeling in your stomach, I am not speaking of thinking logically vs emotions and which is more correct.
In the context, I mean that when you hear something that simply does not ring true, may have consequences if you follow it and are torn between allegiance to an organization or minister and what churns as the common sense opposite in your stomach, go with the stomach.
For example, Ron Weinland tells everyone to not date, marriages are over, buy food, plan on weeks with your brethren because you can't travel, and he wants you to accept this in your head but your stomach says , "he's dangerous to my family", go with that feeling.
When a RW or a DCP says send it in and that is what God wants giving all the appropriate scriptures, but you feel sick and fearful over doing it, go with the sick and fearful feeling as more true than your head hearing one more scripture on what God is doing through these guys.
I believe I am speaking of those times when your head is being told what the current proof texting is telling you on whatever topic the minister is trying to prove to you, and your red lights are flashing and BS meter is pegging in your stomach, you better pay attention to the emotion. Emotions are the body reaction to the mind. Your conscious mind can say, this sounds reasonable when your subconscious mind says, "this is bullshit," and you have a choice to make. Don't go with the spin. Go with the doubt.
I go with my thoughts, reasonings and things learned when it comes to deciding what or if I will accept the stories of religion or the teachings of preachers, who may or may not have an education in such things . I do my own homework and come to my own conclusions. When a minister appeals to Adam and Eve, or Noah, or some mythological tale borrowed and edited from pagan sources before them , I use my thinking and research ability to decide if I want to base present ideas or beliefs on such myths.
When I am told I must be emotional, raise my hands in praise to God, speak in tongues or act generally stupid to worship this or that deity, I say no.
Perhaps my "problem" is that when somone says "stand up," I ask why? If they say, "sit down", I ask why. If they tell me how it all is and they have not done their homework, I say , "no thanks." or "I'll get back to you on that one..."
In short, no church, minister, organization , idea or speculation is ever again going to hijack my own decision making apparatus. I am done with that bullshit.
Wait till Dave finds out that Gerald recently established an office/apartment in Jerusalm, for one of his witnesses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq3zDnk2OqI
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