Davie is NOT happy with stupid lay members writing about theology or that criticize him. I have a feeling he does not like this blog either.
Many of God’s people now regularly waste time reading what are no more than gossip columnists (disguised as blogs) produced by laymembers whom God does not authorize to teach—anything! Proverbs warns, “An ungodly man digs up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire” (16:27), and such “columnists” almost invariably do plenty of digging up evil against Mr. Armstrong. As the Psalms direct, these rebellious “haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves to Him” (81:15), but instead they lampoon all forms of government, including most of all the government of God in His Church. These loathe the idea that Mr. Armstrong could have been ANYTHING special. They have NO IDEA what they are talking about when some claim that Zerubbabel is Christ, or others that Joshua is Christ. Imagine Christ inspiring the prophets Haggai and Zechariah to carry messages to Himself, or rather to both of “Himselves” since He might be both Joshua and Zerubbabel. Next imagine Christ telling Himself (twice) as He does in Haggai to “fear not” and to “be strong” and that “I am with you.” How would the God of the Old Testament be with Himself? Now imagine Christ saying He “stirred up the spirit” (Hag. 1:14) of Himself when speaking of doing this to either Zerubbabel or Joshua, or both. Further—and this is all plainly found in Zechariah 3—Joshua is: (1) seen standing with the Lord, (2) described as receiving Christ—“the Branch”—at His Return and (3) an angel duly charges (“protests” to) him about matters no angel would DARE say to Christ, who is God.
9 comments:
Dave is going to learn the hard way that good old Zerub and Joshua were Zerub and Joshua and themselves. Any future inferences would be that a Jewish Messiah, after all, it is a Jewish hope and book, would yet come. It is a book that encourages the rebuilding of the temple though times were difficult. These refugees from the Babylonian captivity were not all that up to it. The Book has been twisted to point to Christ but that was never the intention . That is all done in hind sight by NT writers and Christians looking back for something spoken they can apply to Jesus.
I can guarantee you Haggai never had any Dave Pack in mind. Now that is not to say Dave Pack cannot have Haggai in mind, just as Gerald Flurry had Malachi in his mind, but that doesn't count when it is all said and done. It doesn't work that way.
Dave writes long letters because what he wants others to believe about him can't be explained shortly or quickly. The wear down factor has to kick in and that can only take place over weeks with long sermons and long letters.
That should be his members first hint, but I give up on most of them ever regaining their own common sense and critical thinking skills.
Whatever Haggai was getting at, it was not about Dave Pack. It applied to his day and carried the hope that the mess Israel found itself in after captivity and having to rebuild their own temple would work out. The governor and the priest would finish that work and I suppose they did.
I don't think I have ever read or listened to such an ego centric person as Dave and that is spread out over decades.
I won't reveal the source but this comment to me just this evening from someone who directly suffered under DCP and these kinds of ideas. It is an OFT told observation.
"Dave Pack was a sociopath with strong narcissistic tendencies, before we could leave on our own he used collusion to subvert me and use it to fire and disfellowship my wfe and I leaving us destitute."
Dave is going to leave everyone involved with him destitute both spiritually and literally if they are not careful.
Malm could've scored big against Pack this week. But his idiotic interpretation of Haggai was just as painfully unoriginal.
It would appear everyone has lost the plot.
Dennis,
I have read your blog ideas quite thorougly through the times here on this blog. While I don't agree with many of your ideas, I do commend you for your honesty and for boldly saying your ideas, no matter what anyone thinks. It's the mark of individuality. And though I have my personal staunch and solid opinions that are solidly different from yours, I think it's a matter of respect of what brought us on our individual roads to where we are now - and it's not my place to judge. I extend my hand and shake your hand, simply because I appreciate your honesty and it's the respectful thing to do.
But there is one thing I agree with you on - it's your analysis of WCG ministers. I know you were one once, but you weren't the ordinary WCG minister by any means. And your knack at calling out other ministers where they need calling out is refreshing - especially when the ego and narcissism is so apparent.
BTW - you, other guest writers, and the Blog writer here - reach crowds many times bigger then most WCG era Feast sites in a given period of time. You just don't have that massive echo effect offsetting your words through the Arena PA systems. ;)
Brevity is the soul of wit, which means that Davey is pretty witless.
Dave Pack wrote: "Many of God’s people now regularly waste time reading what are no more than gossip columnists (disguised as blogs) produced by laymembers whom God does not authorize to teach—anything..."
Well, Dave (since you apparently read this blog), aren't the other 3 fingers on your hand pointing back at you as you continue to vomit out gossip on us? Take a deep breath, Dave, before you write/say anything...
Dave, you went on to chastise us by writing: "...They have NO IDEA what they are talking about when some claim that Zerubbabel is Christ, or others that Joshua is Christ. Imagine Christ inspiring the prophets Haggai and Zechariah to carry messages to Himself, or rather to both of “Himselves” since He might be both Joshua and Zerubbabel. Next imagine Christ telling Himself (twice) as He does in Haggai to “fear not” and to “be strong” and that “I am with you.” How would the God of the Old Testament be with Himself? Now imagine Christ saying He “stirred up the spirit” (Hag. 1:14) of Himself when speaking of doing this to either Zerubbabel or Joshua, or both..."
That is just plain stupid! You are holding on to some false premise(s), which aren't true.
Now, in an earlier post I did write this: "...Why not just say that Zerubbabel and Joshua were to represent Christ and Peter, respectively, about 500 years later and let it go at that?..."
You make it sound like Christ was talking to Himself, and that is stupid. Why waste time with gossip, because you end up gossiping yourself?
Take one verse, for example:
"And the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of the LORD of hosts, their God," Haggai 1:14
Using your faulty logic, Christ is talking to Himself if He also is represented by Zerubbabel, Christ isn't doing that speaking.
Who is inspiring those words? God, the LORD of hosts, the One representing, if anything, God the Father about things He will some day work out in the lives of Zerubbabel and Joshua. Period!
Incidentally, Joshua with those "filthy garments:" how could that ever picture Jesus Christ?
Now, Peter? That's another story!
And the house that is being built? It began with what God did (John 8:44) by His Spirit through Jesus Christ (first member of God's Church) and it will be finished by what God does by His Spirit through Jesus Christ and it will include the two witnesses of Revelation. The building of that house/temple, spiritually, still is not finished, but we're one day closer.
Mr. Armstrong may have believed that he was pictured by Zerubbabel, but his hands didn't finish building the house/temple...
And time will tell...
John
Thank you anon for your kind words. The joy is in the search and diversity not sameness. I watch on the sidelines somewhat amazed at the drama and personalities. I don't like it when people get hurt but there comes a time when that is in their hands and no one can do that for them.
I am no business man by nature and have always been more the caretaker/healer type whatever that means. WCG sucked out my brains year after year with its drama and arrogance. Just about everything I ever brought up as an area of concern with the Pack types , and there were more than just him, were ignored. But there was balance because there were many things they told me I ignored. "To be played in all the churches" was not high on my priority list knowing the motive for them.
At work and have 2 hour session with one person followed by another. I like what I do and I am so glad I never bought into splinteritis with all the continued drama.
Dennis
Revelation 22:18
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall ADD UNTO THESE THINGS, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book"
Looks like Davey is going to be in big trouble!
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
I'm sure he means that God has not given Spirit-filled Christians the capacity to discern, or to evaluate the outrageous statements he himself makes to determine whether they are valid, and profitable to pattern their lives after.
Self-idolatry is a very ugly and damaging thing! This dude is a spiritual bully, intimidating any who follow him into some really nonChristian attitudes and activities.
BB
Problem is that "Spirit-filled Christians" who ostensibly have "the capacity to discern" often end up with widely and wildly differing interpretations.
For people who consider themselves "Spirit-filled Christians", it comes down to seeing other viewpoints as wrong, and their own viewpoints as being right.
They are "filled" with hubris.
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