I pick on the "Christ Knock's" folks a lot here. However a reader here sent me this video which is a response by Michael Venish against Dave Packs outrageous lies in his publications and web site. Since he is a proven liar in this case then what else has he lied about? Dennis also has brought out many of Dave's lies. Why do people continue to follow the liars in charge of the various COG's?
Michael Venish used to work in the Restored Church of God Church Administration Department. He knows first hand the lies and deception that Dave uses to grease his members up for more money.
Venish writes:
The leader of The Restored Church of God David C Pack, claims he has not disfellowshipped one person world wide in the thirteen years of his church/organizations existence. He published a letter in magazine format, to dispel the supposed lies and false statements about him on the internet to exonerate himself.
Venish also includes this description of Dave Pack:
Profile of the Sociopath
- Glibness and Superficial Charm
- Manipulative and Conning
- They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
- Grandiose Sense of Self
- Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
- Pathological Lying
- Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Then in the comments below the video there were these gems:
I too was a member of RCG and quit attending right before you were disfellowshipped. I had written a letter to Mr. Pack about his intentions to borrow money from banks to build his multi-million dollar Ohio Campus and housing compound. He did"t like to be criticized, so he publicly berated me. I reminded him of Proverbs 22:7, the borrower is a slave to the lender. Enslaving the brethren or not, he always gets his way. What's RCG policy, "Pack's way or the highway"?
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The truth always sets us free. Mr. pack is creating bondage and people do not see it. In their eyes, everyone outside their "church" is lost. Christ came for that very reason and mentioned of the leavening of the pharisees. His followers are unstable in their reasoning.
50 comments:
Dave to Church: I am an Apostle
Church to Dave: No you aren't. We find you wanting
Jesus to Church: Well done
M.T.Hall
Dr. Phil McGraw's latest book called LIFE CODE talks about what he calls BAITERS; that is, Backstabbers, Abusers, Impostors, Takers, Exploiters, and Reckless.
He said, "The number-one weapon of abusers in general is isolation."
"#10: When in a position of power and authority, they abuse it with self-dealing and egomaniacal conduct."
"YOU CANNOT GIVE THEM POWER OVER YOU, BECAUSE THEY WILL ABUSE IT AND YOU (emphasis mine)."
GTA: Rader lied.
HWA: GTA lied.
Tkach: The receiver lied.
Flurry: Tkach lied.
Meredith: Salyer lied.
UCG: Hulme lied.
COGWA: UCG lied.
Thiel: Meredith lied.
Kubik: The cow-snatchers lied.
The cow-snatchers: Kubik lied. Pass the A-1.
Weinland: The judge lied.
Malm: I do not green eggs and ham.
Pack: Everybody lied.
Venish: Pack lied.
Just makes you want to take up your hymnal and sing "Blest and Happy Is the Man," doesn't it?
Blest and happy is the man who leaves.
Interesting comments from Venish that were once posted over on Thiel's site...
I'm a former minister of the RCG who was disfellowshipped and fired in June for accusations about Zec 3 and being accused of calling David Pack's counsel of elders "filthy rags" - Joshua's filthy garments - and I also disagreed with his claim to be a High Priest an office held by Jesus Christ. My wife and I were harangued for two hours by this vain narcissistic tyrant who cares little for those of age and whether or not he destroys their lives, and I have evidence that he has done the same to many others...My wife also work at RCG headquarters as a volunteer for over 15 months without even a thank you.
I hold no animosity toward David Pack or any of his ministry, I came to see that the work he is doing is about vaunting himself as well as coning his members with clever sermons, into disposing their assets in favor of RCG so he can build an empire. He claims an apostleship which is false he claims to follow Mr. Armstrong, but simply took his literature embellished it with his own thoughts and ideas and palmed it off as truth. Mr. Pack is a clever man who knows his Bible well, he has used this wisdom, to do a work that on first appearance looks like the real thing, but over time one wakes up to the realization of what Paul warned about in II Cor11:13 that it is simply a work of the flesh he he will bear the consequences of his actions.
My hope for him is that God will show him exactly what he is, what he has done and what he is doing, so he to may have the opportunity of facing Christ in the not to distant future and enter into the kingdom of God. I can send you all the correspondence I have emails, back and forth, an agreement they wanted me to sign as well as a letter from RCG attorney to substantiate what I have told you, of course you understand once you post what I send, you will receive an email from Jeffery Ambrose denying, or justifying my disfellowship and firing from RCG...
Kind regards
Michael venish
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
I, Joe Moeller, also confess to lying. Thought Id bring it out before it goes public.
When my wife asks me before church, "Joe, does this dress make my butt look big?"
I always answer "NO" and say "Honey, your butt looks just like you did when you were 23 years old".
I do believe that God grants special dispensation for this kind of lie, but a lie it indeed is! It is a great relief that I have now gone public!
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
wow....I'm impressed.. This man reminds me of my dad whom Dave also had a go at intimidating at times. Like that was going to work lol.
Mr. V: I salute you for your heartfelt and sincere expose of David Cowardly Pack.
Joe: I hope you're not using your real name. What if your wife finds this forum?
Very credible RCG insider to say the least. This will do more to help those enamoured with DCP than anything we say here. After all , to RCG/DCP we are mere scoffers and observers outside the walls.
Very sincere gentleman it appears to me just seeing what he sees. I hope this helps some along the way to hold on to their resources and open their minds more to NOT being just stuck in the only true church of God on the planet, which of course, it is not.
He certainly gives credibility as well to our own observations showing we merely also see and hear what we see and hear when DCP communicates these traits and seeming abuses of authority and the hard earned resources of others.
Maybe this Friday's awesome revelation from DCP won't be so awesome lol
"FORMER FISH SAYS, 'WATER IS WET'!!!"
Along with the COGawa cows, I am just udderly shocked by the revelation that an Armstrongite minister would lie, connive, or self-aggrandize. Nothing in my WCG upbringing, tenure at Embarrassiong College, or my years working for the college could have prepared me for this.
Nottttt! Hey, once you watched what they did with 1975, you realized they had already misfired their biggest cannon. Nothing that follows has been surprising to me, but my sympathies go out to those who reprogrammed themselves, and continued to believe the rubbish.
BB
Whenever my wife would ask me if a dress made her butt look fat, I would say, "How much difference could a dress possibly make?" Not married anymore! j/k :)
Guy logic and girl logic don't mesh...
"Hey, once you watched what they did with 1975, you realized they had already misfired their biggest cannon. Nothing that follows has been surprising to me, but my sympathies go out to those who reprogrammed themselves, and continued to believe the rubbish."
I was precisely at this time that I and many others decided to opt out. I had been seeing for some time that a lot of doctrines like tithing and D&R were way off base. It didn't take me long to chuck the whole thing and it's been a steady progresion to where I am now ever since.
So Dave Pack is a liar! Aren't all Armstrongite cult leaders liars as they scramble for the tithes and offerings of the dumb sheep? Tell me something new!
Richard
I tried to warn many people about RCG several years ago. They all thought I was crazy. I was in RCG before Mr. V. I saw Pack heading down the same road as Flurry. Even though Pack is a lot smarter and more cunning than Flurry, it is so obvious that he is wrong. I can't believe anyone is that gullible to go with this known liar.
Assistant deacon wrote:Assistant Deacon said...
GTA: Rader lied.
HWA: GTA lied.
Tkach: The receiver lied.
Flurry: Tkach lied.
Meredith: Salyer lied.
UCG: Hulme lied.
COGWA: UCG lied.
Thiel: Meredith lied.
Kubik: The cow-snatchers lied.
The cow-snatchers: Kubik lied. Pass the A-1.
Weinland: The judge lied.
Malm: I do not green eggs and ham.
Pack: Everybody lied.
Venish: Pack lied.
Just makes you want to take up your hymnal and sing "Blest and Happy Is the Man," doesn't it?
******
No, not really that song, but your comments reminded me of something written in Psalms, something that is apparently not new under the sun:
Psalm 116:10 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted:
:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.
It must happen a lot...
John
Liars are nothing new and boring. So is this thread.
Ooh, the party poopers have spoken. Bug off.
And John, of course everybody lies. The irony is that these great men and organizations "of God," seemingly standing shoulder to shoulder, inevitably end up accusing each other of being liars.
Emerson's "what you are shouts so loudly" sentiment certainly applies, no?
But psychopaths are exciting.
Dr. Robert Hare declares the DSM IV is wrong -- very misleading.
And so it is, the behavior demonstrated by Davey is not that of a sociopath, it falls squarely in the realm of the psychopath.
The solution for encounters with psychopaths may indeed be found in Life Code by Dr. Phil McGraw.
As for lying, Davey takes the Ninth!.
Pack also said in his little book that he wrote about himself in the third person that he never plagiarized “one sentence” from Herb the incestuous child molester Armstrong. That too is a lie. After one notices the obvious similarities to the titles and cover art you can then compare the table of contents to the knock-offs to the original Armstrong publications (Herbie stole a bunch of his stuff too, Dave is just like Herb). SILENCED did an extensive piece on this copycat business; it is so obvious that Dave is a lying sombitch about not copying. Go to Armstrong’s “The United States and Britain in Prophesy”, page 31, paragraph title “A Nation and a Company of Nations” then go to dave’s knock off book titled “America and Britain in Prophesy” (notice any similarities yet?), page 36, paragraph title “A Nation and a Company of Nations” !!!!! Word for word, dave is a liar, there is evidence. There are many, many more duplications in all of the books that he claims that god gave him supernatural power to write. The man has bull shit dripping from his lips. He will obviously say anything to appear like super dave... Do you remember super dave? The man is a menace, a fraud. His misrepresentations are designed to cause his targets to give him money, it is a CRIME!!! The Ohio State Attorney needs to investigate his business, his not for profit business, his charitable organization that is not open to the public unless potential marks are evaluated and determined naive and gullible enough to believe that dave is an apostle of god. I bet that it is a matter of time before dave claims that he is Jesus Christ. He is a dangerous man and his cult will be on the national news someday because some sick thing will happen there… He needs treatment and or institutionalization before that happens.
And John, of course everybody lies.
Sorry, Assistant Deacon, in spite of Dr. Gregory House's popularization of the idea, there is no proof that everybody lies and there can never be a proof, since it is quite impossible to get a sufficient sample size of humanity to determine a 100% success rate.
However, we do know from the research at the University of Toronto that it is necessary to lie to have executive ability: If you don't have the ability to lie consistently convincingly by the age of five, you will never become a truly successful CEO, President, Chancellor, Director or the successful leader of a cult.
So if Davey Pack claims success as a cult leader (de facto), then he is a liar or else he is a failure.
Which, if you are any kind of a minister, is sort of the same thing all wrapped up in one corrupt package.
Please note that God is not involved anywhere in this.
This all reminds me of the old Ambassador reports where people wrote huge letters to ministers discussing various doctrines comparing them to Bible scriptures. Who cares. It's all wrong, it's all stupid and a waste of time and a load of bs........
And yes everybody lies, apart from very small children and simple minded people.
It's remarkable when Venish describes Pack "waving his fist in my face" and "calling me wicked and evil."
What a typical bully. Once nobody fears him, he'll be finished.
Re the discussion on lying: Does intent count? Is lying a conscious attempt to deceive? Or does lying include repeating things one believes to be true, but are in fact not? I believe that David Pack, and many other ACOG leaders have elevated themselves into the first category. It's a pity more of them don't end up in the penitentiary like the one that got caught because he failed to restrict his lying to his own people and broadened his horizons to include lying to the feds.
BB
Indeed the truth always sets us free, and lies imprisons us. The COGs are excellent examples of the latter. Christ himself hated the lies of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Imagine what he would say today about the COGs given their greater lies and the resultant harm on families and individuals.
The stronger one's faith in Dave's views the stronger the delusion.
We only have ourselves to blame for putting a person, whether HWA, Meredith, Flurry, Pack, and all other HWA remnant false ministers - between us and God. Sometimes, my hair also stands on end to realize how much gullible I was then. But this is already the Information Age. The internet has made information available freely to everyone. All one needs to do is open up his mind to see what the other side of the coin is. To remain close minded in an Information Age is a tragedy and we have only the self to blame. We are all adults and responsible for our decisions and actions.
The reason that Davey Pack and the other would-be gurus of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong is well described by Aftermath Radio: Psychopathy and the Ministry… How Vulnerable Are You? Cult religion offers psychopaths such opportunities.
The reference comes from The Painful Truth blog, Theft by Authority.
It isn't that we were conned because we are gullible, it's because we encountered psychopaths whose superior skills render us incapacitated as prey before a finely honed predator.
You should also read "Snakes in Suits" which is linked to by the article: If you don't know how psychopaths work, you could be "sifted as wheat" too, leaving your life a shambles of dysfunctional chaotic disorder (and if you want your life to be an utter failure, then Davey Pack is a good place to start).
Ok, so im reluctantly turning into a bitter atheist due to this and other Armstrong and bible bashing sites. it was very refreshing to check out Venish's other you tube video called why were you born...sure, we all heard it before but seriously..im not buying this God doesn't exist shit...Too bad David Pack does exist.
Yahshua is a sarcastic, witty guy with serious balls. He often publicly humiliated assholes.
He had that most enviable sarcastic technique of calling someone (Pharisees, etc) a SOB & them not realizing it til later.
Note in Matthew how He addresses the Pharisees, He all but tells them to f— off.
Atheists who simply don't believe in God never bother me. But the evangelical atheist crowd, the "anti-theists," are a bunch of stupid dicks.
It doesn't sound like you're turning into an atheist, bitter or otherwise. It sounds like someone has been putting pressure on you to adopt atheism and you're kind of resentful of it. Underneath you're a decided theist.
I myself, quite without pressure, think god is a wonderful idea, but probably no more than that. I'm a happy agnostic.
Sorry, but any video that starts with the presenter saying "Greetings, friends" automatically gets turned off by me.
Call it a reverse-Pavlovian response.
And then there's the whole "I've been a minister of Jesus Christ" bit.
More like a minister of the law and British Israelism, to be precise.
I agree to a point with Anon @ May 12, 2013 at 10:14 AM. It works both ways. There are theists who get very angry at atheists too. Let everyone believe what they want to believe. In the end the truth will be revealed one way or another. I take the theistic road for a variety of reasons but we all need to recognize that not everyone will be either theists or atheists, and both can't be right. Anger will not resolve the situation either. Facts do, and the facts are clear; God exists otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place. The belief in the accidental and purposeless existence of everything is such a dumb idea, and also is unscientific as it would break several known laws of physics. No, there has to be a super intelligent designer and creator. There is no alternative. But as I said, each to their own.
"God exists otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place."
WHA-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-T???
I am fine with people being either believing there's a god, believing there isn't a god, or being unsure. No problem with people expressing their viewpoint and opinion there. But start telling everyone all the reasons why your Armstrongite splinter is amazing, wonderful, and flawless, and that's where I puke.
Lying sometimes pays well.
Just look at the group that formed the UCG. They were clearly conniving deceitful liars as they planned their UCG plans while collecting tithes and salaries while in the WCG.
Many WCG members were even disfellowshipped by those UCG scumbags for stating EXACTLY what those UCG scumbags believed at that time, in order for the UCG scumbags to be able to continue on their mission to hide their beliefs while lying and plotting to form their own splinter group which would ensure their salaries and cushy retirement plans.
Not sure if those UCG scumbags believe what they've been professing since May 1995, or if they believe closer to Tkach and have been faking it since 1995, or if they don't "believe in" anything, but will say and do anything so long as it means they can hold onto a paycheck and power.
One anon declared, "God exists otherwise we wouldn't be here in the first place."
And another anon asked, "WHA-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-T???"
Second anon, no need to be so incredulous. This is normal logic in some subcultures: X exists; therefore Y also exists.
Reminds me of a Florida Cracker I hunted deer with once. At the end of the day he told me excitedly that he had shot at a wild turkey with his deer rifle but missed it. Turkeys were present in our area but sort of scarce. That must have been why he felt the need to show me proof that he actually had seen a turkey. He held up the empty cartridge case from the round he claimed to have fired at it.
Anyone who would believe a RCG minister, past or present, is the kind of idiot that frequents the blog.
Pack is now telling his followers that this August (2013) several other church leaders (his competition) will be killed in a rain of fire from above. Pack has claimed that God has told him that he is the modern apostle and that this will happen. Listening to him makes my stomach turn. Does no one see that he is a liar and is quite insane? Charismatic and quite insane.
He is doubling down on his push to get his members to give give give everything and then more to fund his insanity. They just buy into his narcissistic insanity and don't realize that he is a true delusional sociopath who has learned how to stroke their egos to get the money and power he demands in homage for his obvious superior intellect [gag].
I feel so bad for the people that have been taken in by this sociopath - they will loose everything. I wonder what Pack is going to say when August comes and goes and he is wrong? I hope he has not gone so far as to ensure that this will occur by nefarious means.
To this day I don't understand why anyone would stay in any church that puts tithing and money at the top of their list of requirements to be a member of their church. Any church that tries to strong arm me into giving money will see nothing from me other than my back as I walk out the door.
Pack pretty much tells his members that they have to tithe three times, each being at a MINIMUM 10% of their income (Gross, not net - they are insistent on that point). Who could hear this this without smelling something rotten in Denmark?
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain— Shakespeare
It has been almost 20 years since I left the Church. I still suffer from depression. I think I have found my answer with Discovering the Jewish Jewish. He is on almost every day on tv.
BA
Someone has found out that I am a former member of wwcg, now they leave anomyous messages to attend Packs or one of the other splinter groups. People remind me of of animals or birds...I saw a weak bird that the other birds were trying to peck to death, that's what harassment is like to me. Anyway, just wanted to vent. I am an old woman now & would like for them to leave me alone.
I rember being told that we were the cream of the crud.
Hot sex between member and minister around Nashville rcg. Also a known sexual pervert is allowed to text poor little ladies at 3am. What a nice guy. How can a tall guy like Davy be so small. Also His geneology is not from royalty,He actually came from a circus tallman.
Venish tried to prove to me that David Pack was a faithful man. He was Pack's shrill. Turning on him and changing horses to maintain the paid position of "minister" is not righteous. Pack is a liar? So what. Venish was a liar when preaching about his leader, Pack. What he preaches now is nothing new.
I pointed out to Venish that in Pack's series on "21st Century Apostle" he used the word "me" and "I" almost 200 times. But Pack and HWA were considered to be infallible.
Men look to other men. It is 'unnatural'. It is also weak. Far easier to be told what to believe that to learn it for yourself. This is the appeal of HWA, GRF and DCP.
Former ministers should hang their head in shame for leading people astray. Better to fear God's wrath than rebrand yourself as someone who can help other see simply because they were in the inner sanctum of COG's and had a falling out.
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