A reader here is NOT happy that we pick on David C Pack who is the laughing stock of the Church of God community right now. He is not happy that we pick on the certified liar and false prophet while completely ignoring the Old Testament scripture (the only version Armstrongites follow):
"But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 "And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him," (Deut. 18:20-22).
Our loyal reader writes:
I will be happy when the 1335 gets here and all you people who should know better stop and think to yourselves, "hey that church we would always scorn and shoot the lip at where are they?". All of you who are bitter and mad at God because you had to suffer a little bit, why don't you fast for a couple days and ask him to show you where to go. David C. Pack never said he was a prophet, and men even men of God make mistakes once in a while. But I forgot even though the man does not bend on any of Gods doctrines that the Bible teaches and has restored all what was restored by Mr. Armstrong, If he is off by a year are so lets forget all that and run are mouths till the cows come . Because everyone knows David, Noah, Peter, Paul, Abraham, Isac, and Jacob none of those men made mistakes. Right?
Even non-COG related sites are starting to expose Davey:
Pack pays himself $125,000 tax free salary and lives a luxurious lifestyle. He has been the author of over 20 books, and has established over 50 congregations. Psalms 49:12-13 reads: "People, despite their wealth, do not endure; they are like the beasts that perish. This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings."
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David C. Pack, just like Herbert W. Armstrong, has been called the biggest false prophet in all of Christianity.
Dare I say, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are even more accepted than the Restored Church of God.
The best stinging rebuke of David C Pack came from one of his own. A minister of his own church and an insider to the shenanigans that Dave pulls has this to say:
31 comments:
It's just a minor point, but Roderick Meredith is a much greater liar and false prophet with a lot more years of devastation behind them than a pathetic David C (and hear BS) Pack.
Nevertheless, when a man is absolutely wrong in everything, it's not just a mistake once in awhile. With Davey, it's all the time, nonstop. It never ends.
Think about it: You might decry Harold Camping, Charles Spiegel, a retired psychology professor, preaches from a small town near San Diego CA that the ancient land of Atlantis will emerge from the Caribbean circa 2001 CE -- shortly thereafter, 1000 extra-terrestrials from "Myton" in 33 spaceships will land there and bring new knowledge to humanity -- or Superdave the Wonderchemist (no relation) -- so why do you give Health Food Store Dave a free pass?
You mean to tell me you would choose Davey the Packman over Dr. Robert Thiel or Ysrael Hawkins as having better prophecy?
Sorry, but in the competition for greatest false prophet of our age, Herbert Armstrong won the title and all the rest are losers.
But don't fret: Being a false prophet these days doesn't actually mean that you're a false prophet even though you've made prophecies which have consistently fallen flat (including predicting that some CoHAM leaders would die) -- "false prophet" has been defined out of existence among the Armstrongists, so, like they said on Red Dwarf about the Hologram personalities: Death isn't as limiting to your career as it used to be. And neither is being a false prophet.
In fact, it's a plus.
You know, to find out what's coming, I've found Sam and Dean Winchester among the most reliable sources lately.
I don't know where this idea that you must proclaim yourself to be a prophet, or be ordained as one in order to be considered accountable as a false prophet came from. That is dumb semantics, pure and simple. A false prophet is someone who says certain things are going to happen in the future, often linking them to a specific time line, and then those things do not happen. When the events don't come to pass, it positively indicates that the individual who forecast them has zero special insights from God, and because he is speaking presumptuously, is totally unreliable as any sort of spiritual guide. But, the false prophets don't want their following (and income!) to evaporate, so they indulge in obfuscation and spin.
Ministers do not need to use prophecy in order to preach the gospel. Those who insist on "spiking" their messages with the extra urgency provided by prophecy subject themselves to an acid test that they simply cannot pass. As they fail the test, they nearly always end up damaging the lives of their followers in ways which they fail to acknowledge, and cannot possibly repair. Pack is a primary exemplar of this breed. Regurgitating and repeating the excuses once used by HWA to explain his failures just continues the error.
BB
"Because everyone knows David, Noah, Peter, Paul, Abraham, Isac, and Jacob none of those men made mistakes. Right?"
What this individual forgets is that the above repented and had no pride. No men in the bible were used while sinning and were called out of "Egypt" "Babylon", one knocked to the ground and blinded then responding "what will you have me to do (awakening)?", if only people would read the bible entirely.
Me, myself, and I is from the devil, especially when denying the Savior like DCP, persecuting him all over again, where there does not remain any more sacrifice.
DCP's heart is not right!
"I will be happy when the 1335 gets here..."
Okay, keep us posted. Let us all know when this happens. I am sure I will be mildly interested at that time.
"All of you who are bitter and mad at God..."
Sure, I'm just as "bitter" toward the Christian god as I am at all the other gods who I also doubt the existence of.
"...why don't you fast for a couple days and ask him to show you where to go."
Tried that. Didn't work. Any other suggestions?
"David C. Pack never said he was a prophet"
Funny how he likes to make prophecies. If he doesn't want to be labeled as a prophet, maybe he should try getting out of the business.
"...even men of God make mistakes once in a while...if he is off by a year are[sp] so lets forget all that and run are[sp] mouths..."
Wait a minute. Who is the one running their mouth off here? "Oops, I accidentally spoke on behalf of a deity who I've never met, who has never spoken to me, and who has never asked me to speak on his behalf. Sooner or later this is bound to happen to everyone. It's just a matter of time. Right?" This isn't actually an accident, is it?
"...even though the man does not bend on any of Gods doctrines..."
How about the deliberate policy of not properly allocating earmarked 3rd tithe, just for one unambiguous example of his doctrinal flexibility.
"...and has restored all what was restored by Mr. Armstrong..."
What exactly did Pervert Armstrong restore? British Israelism?
It's just a minor point, but Roderick Meredith is a much greater liar and false prophet with a lot more years of devastation behind them than a pathetic David C (and hear BS) Pack.
Sure. But Pack used to be with Meredith, and when he left Meredith one of his big reasons was that Meredith made too many mistakes.
Seems that in Davey's world, it's OK for the leader to make mistakes, only as long as the leader is Davey.
Exactly! HWA restored nothing! He taught what was already being taught elsewhere, Mormon's, JW, SDA, etc. He did bring different/another gospel, a perverted one saying the gospel of the Kingdom was not taught for 1900 years and took the Son out. Did not preach salvation, santification, etc. This is false since the Son Himself said "the gates of hell would not prevail".
Col 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
In one of HA videos, he stated that instead of accepting the Savior he gave himself to JC. Not biblical! HA also called his followers his children, what a devil! One must accept/receive, repent and obey as David did. Just read Psalm 119.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
What exactly did Pervert Armstrong restore?
The Plain Truth about intergenerational love? Imagine how WCG could have been different if old Herbie had followed the lead of the Children of God in the 1960s and introduced that "new truth" to the Radio Church of God. Garner Ted would have excelled at "flirty fishing" far beyond what David "Mo" Berg and his followers could ever have imagined!
Poor sweet innocent Dave!
The one who indeed did make a PROPHECY about other COG leaders dying and the rest being stricken and cursed? That sweet innocent, misunderstood guy?
Yeah... Charlie Manson still has followers and female groupies out there to this very day too. Poor Charlie is innocent and misunderstood and is being abused by the "world" and the "man" too! Pack and Charlie have a lot in common.
I guess that is what I get for making a comment. But like I said all of you who hate God and the truth you will get a chance in the second resurrection and then when you are asking Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Pack to forgive you they will probably say I already did..
I'm wondering why all those >false prophets< never get disfellowshipped.
Do any of the dumb members ever question that? hahahahaha!...Soooooo stupid they are!
Jason: you imagine a lot if you think every single person here is antiGod is has rejected the "truth." What we have rejected is the lies and false prophecies of multiple Armstrongist splinter personality group leaders.
Dave Pack self appointed himself as a new upstart group leader. He opened his mouth and Mande hundreds of predictions and self afirmations that are blatantly false. He does not have the most important ministry on earth today. He does not have the largest Christain web site ever designed.
Thousands of COG members and former members did NOT come over to the RCG last September/October. His prediction that three COG leaders would die by Feast time never materialized.
He preaches legalism that keeps his members ensnared in an endless cycle if never being "good enough" in God's sight.
Do we have atheists, agnostic and non believers here? Absolutely! I am glad the are! Armstrongism never allowed people to think freely and outside the box the church established. It left the church isolated, provincial, and self-absorbed. Look at its product - over 700 different splinter groups that keep fracturing month after month.
There are many members in RCG that are hurting because if the kies if Dave. Families have been destroyed, marriages broken up, children turned against parents and parents against children.
Dave can build his mini-me campus with its mini-auditorium while trying to emulate HWA. Dave will never reach the vision HWA no matter how misguided it all was.
Dave is not drawing in new members but poaching those from other COG's. His message is legalistic bullshit meant to enslave people from being totally free and at rest in Jesus.
Been there done that.
By the way Jason, I would be more than happy to post any article from you showing I/we are wrong. There are many things people have written on this blog that I don't agree with, but they have opened my mind to be able to think about things like I had never done before.
I am willing to post it without any comments from myself. Send it to me at no2hwa @ yahoo.com (eliminate the spaces.)
"But like I said all of you who hate God and the truth..."
I have no regard for Zeus, Romulus, Odin, Mithras, Osiris, Zalmoxis, just, for example. How come nobody ever accuses me of hating, being mad at, or bitter toward them and their various "truths"?
NO2HWA
''There are many members in RCG that are hurting because if the kies if Dave. Families have been destroyed, marriages broken up, children turned against parents and parents against children''.
I think there is a verse similar to what you just said. True Christianity is not easy, and why should it be how in the world do you expect to have membership in the God family for all eternity if you cant handle a trial every now and then. you people need to remember the basics and build up your foundations again. Think of Job. Remember ancient Israel all ways blamed the man when they were really just mad at God. Yall need to read what Mr. Pack says and if you pay attention n you will see it is not his words but Gods
"when you are asking Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Pack to forgive you..."
Asking Herbert Armstrong and David Pack for forgiveness?
That line tells us more about who you worship and what these cults are focused on more than anything else you could have said.
So Jason, apparently it is ok for Pack and other RCG ministers to abuse members because it is only for their own good? IS that what you will say tot he mother who's two teenage suns were turned against here by Dave because she left the RCG? Will you tell that to the family who's child committed suicide because they were not tough enough to stand the test? What about the RCG members that sold their homes, farms and businesses to send it in to Dave last September to prepare for the major influx of members who never came? Now they are living in poverty while Dave builds his "City on the Hill." Jesus requires no such thing. No hoops or hurdles to jump through and particularly no tithing.
In one of his videos, Michael Venish said that David C. Pack not only thinks that he is right and that all the other churches are wrong, but that David Pack's "arrogance knows no bounds because he even thinks that the Muslims are wrong too!"
Considering that Jesus taught that “out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks,” it makes one wonder just exactly what is this that has come bubbling up out of Michael Venish's heart and mouth?
Does Michael Venish think that the Catholic Church and its Protestant daughter churches are right? They almost all observe Sunday as their day to play golf and rest.
Does Michael Venish think that the Muslims are right? The two major branches of Islam, the Sunnis and the Shias, both observe Friday as their day of assembly.
Does Michael Venish think that other Worldwide Church of God splinter groups--such as Gerald "That False Prophet" Flurry's Philadelphia Church of Fraud--are right? The PCG observes Saturday as its Sabbath, but has totally perverted it and turned it into bondage to satanic and sexual abuse and sin.
Does Michael Venish think that ALL these groups are somehow ALL right?
Does Michael Venish think that ONLY David C. Pack's Restored Church of God is wrong?
Michael Venish can try all he wants to pretend that he is a good guy, but he has let the evil out of his heart, the noise out of his mouth, and the cat out of the bag. How can anyone ever trust a silly goofball like Michael Venish?
Jason Moreau, Kelly Barfield told me it is already too late for me to "get a chance in the second resurrection." Apparently I blew my eligibility to enter the Kingdom when I dropped out of Ambassador College and quit going to church.
I am pretty sure the lake of fire is a non-existent threat. However, if I do find myself being lobbed into it, and if I do see HWA and DCP in the gallery applauding the weeping and gnashing of teeth, I plan to occupy the time during the arc of my trajectory just before the plunge by giving each of them the finger--one with the right hand and the other with the left.
"Yall need to read what Mr. Pack says and if you pay attention n you will see it is not his words but Gods"
LOL! That'll be the day. Has it ever occurred to you that when Davey Pack's words don't come to pass, it's because they're his own? Oh, that's right, you're in a cult, so to you Davey Pack is your one and only true god.
"you people need to remember the basics and build up your foundations again."
How about not telling other people what they "need" to be doing from your cultic, closedminded, pre-scientific, and completely irrational frame of reference?
"How can anyone ever trust a silly goofball like Michael Venish?"
How can anyone ever trust a silly goofball like Dave Pack?
"LOL! That'll be the day. Has it ever occurred to you that when Davey Pack's words don't come to pass, it's because they're his own? Oh, that's right, you're in a cult, so to you Davey Pack is your one and only true god."
Except when they don't come to pass, which means he's not, except when he's not making prophecies, which is when he is when he's not.
Funny how that whole lip service to "god not men" worked out in the Armstrong groups. We sure see a lot of defending of men.
There's just so much evidence floating around out there, a few mouse clicks away. The people who are following self-ordained apostles and prophets are sadly, and willfully ignorant of the things which they could easily know. Yet, they call us deceived, and allude to TLOF, or the second rez.
It is only the people who have been persuaded to equate their splinter with God who would assert that those who have found that splinter to be false or wanting are haters of God. The two are, after all, two distinctly separate entities. Bottom line is, God did not take advantage of the opportunity to endorse Pack's Haggai fantasy. He passed! Had He been behind it, He most certainly would have done this in a grand and expansive way. Kind of like a "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!" type of thing. Instead, nothing happened at all. Dave received a vote of no confidence, and has been out there helplessly flapping around in the breeze ever since. And, there were probably people out there who had left Armstrongism decades ago, watching to see what God was going to do!
To any individual with the gift of Christian discernment, that pretty much says it all.
BB
Someone said: "But like I said all of you who hate God and the truth you will get a chance in the second resurrection and then when you are asking Mr. Armstrong and Mr. Pack to forgive you they will probably say I already did.."
While I don't need it or care much about it, HWA and Pack would do well to do some apologizing themselves for their egocentric and Biblically ignorant and ill informed selves.
I was thinking the same thing Dennis. I am sort of expecting the apology to be the other way around if I ever run into HWA in the Lake of Fire eternity.
Richard
Jason writes:
"Yall need to read what Mr. Pack says"
Jason, we are intelligent people who indeed can read. Why is not just reading the Bible enough? Why do we need an intermediary of any kind to tell us what it says?
Jesus is the High Priest. Any ministers today who claim Biblical titles are liars. The Christian brotherhood is called the "Royal Priesthood" in 1 Peter 2:9.
Any man, like Dave Pack, who is attempting to be a doorkeeper between man and Christ is a usurper of Jesus. No man has the "franchise rights" to salvation and exclusive access to Jesus Christ and God the Father. Those who do so are out for money and power. Read Ezekiel 34.
Pack claims a religious Biblical title, with no evidence of proof. Jason , lest you forget, less than 9 months ago, Pack claimed the following...
***Three leaders of the splinters must die. One will not work. Two will not work. Four will not work. Two dying and one getting sick will not work. Three must die.
***They must be leaders, not underlings and not even second in commands. IOW, we are talking people like Meredith, Kubik, Flurry, etc.
***They must die on 30 August, 2013. It cannot be on the 29th or the 31st. It must be on the 30th.
While publicly he waffled on how they die, He alleged in sermons, "I KNOW HOW THEY DIE AND WHO THEY ARE. IM CERTAIN" Pack was dead wrong on this, and is dead wrong on many, many fronts.
Jason, you are a sincere seeker Im sure. Keep seeking and you will find. Dave Pack is crazy, mentally ill and dangerous. I say this to you in sincerity, and in concern for you.
Jason,
Your words could have been written 42 years ago by people who read and post on this site. But the 1335 did not come for them. 1972 was a huge fraud. But to HWA, it was just another error in timing. This led many to research all of the prophecies and theology of the WCG and discovered that HWA had many, many errors over the years-----errors in prophecy, doctrine and conduct that had been conveniently covered up.
So put yourself in their shoes or position. For that is what Christians are supposed to do, right?
You live your whole life believing in something, anticipating something, to the exclusion of all else. And your told by these people that you are risking eternal life by even questioning these doctrines, prophecies, authority and even titles of the leaders.
And when they do not materialize, when they fail, there response is "everybody has been wrong from time to time?"
You feel used. You look like a fool.
People that seem angry and bitter to you have either suffered or witnessed brethren suffer greatly under the iron hand of HWA and his ministers.
And your response to that is "True Christianity equates to suffering?"
Think (you know that is always how "Mr. Pack" begins a statement) what would Mr's Pack or Armstrong have done in a COG7 seat, if they had heard the leaders proclaim something as expansive and sweeping as the Haggai/Zechariah prophecy that fell completely flat. That utterly failed. What was their history? Or pattern (you know, another word "Mr. Pack" likes to use).
The answer is they would have left, started a new church, and poached members of the old church to come with them-----proclaiming the leaders to be false.
And, after that, would have competed ferociously, within the COG community for the tithes and offerings of the members. For This would be proof of their apostleship. Remember the clarion call of 2008? About as unchristian a sermon as I have ever heard. And given solely to prop up the identity of Dave Pack within the COG community.
And the suffering of the members? Ah, just part of being a Christian. Life is hard, ya no. Ask your relatives for assistance. But if you are to remain in this church you are to give till it bleeds. You have been called to live this life and you no longer have a choice.
My advice, Jason, is to prove all things. Use your god given mind and free will to prove all things. And if it leads you to the RCG----I have no problem with that. Because that is where it led me. And, frankly, I am better off by living through that experience.
But your words were loaded with "Packisms" that leads me to believe that you are a little closed minded and have not fully researched the history of this movement.
Think. Dave Pack claims to restore all things that HWA previously restored. Have you ever thought HWA could have been wrong and actually has a record of being wrong? And, if so, is it possible that the HWA restoration was wrong? And, if so, what does that make the Dave Pack restoration?
Food for thought.
Actually, it is quite amazing that Armstrongism didn't just cease to exist and go away in 1972 when HWA's prophecies were proven to be false. But, they succeeded in reprogramming and redeceiving the majority of the membership. Even I was induced to spot them a couple more years, but when the Germans and Jesus hadn't shown by 1975, I cut my losses and left.
There has been 40 years of revisionism now, and some people who came into these churches after 1975 really aren't sure whether the Armstrongs had made 1972-1975 firm dates, or whether the brethren in some sort of mass delusion just somehow inexplicably assumed it to be the case. But, the fact remains that these religious charlatans actually supported their false prophecy with three mathematical equations "proving" that the end had to happen in 1975. They cannot erase those equations, which we have discussed at length very recently right here.
Weinland's church is not disbanding due to his false prophecies, and apparently neither is Dave Pack's. The majority of the people just didn't get it back in 1975, and their counterparts today don't get it, either. And, since God hates false prophets, has nothing to do with them, and is actually going to burn them up, acknowledging this does not indicate a hatred for God. It merely means that we share God's hatred for false prophets, as well we should!
BB
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