Thursday, December 7, 2017

"You" meant them. Now what?




All fundamentalist and literalist Christians have grown up with the following scriptures burned into our minds....

I Thessalonians 4:15-17 "...For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

I Corinthians 15:51,52 "...WE shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...and WE shall be changed."

Romans 13:11-12 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for NOW is OUR salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand..."

James 5:8 "Be YE also patient; establish YOUR hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."

I John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby WE know that it is the last time."

I Peter 4:7 "But the end of all things is at hanbe ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
Revelation 22:20 "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly..." 

Millions in Fundamentalist and Evangelical Churches have grown up with the idea that the return of Jesus, a return which will fix everything that is wrong with everything and reward the true saints, is always imminent. We read the above scriptures as if they were written for us, as it is we who are finally the ones "upon whom the end of the age has come." Unlike everyone before us, we really really are the ones who will see it and be changed, avoiding the reality of physical death.

There never has been, is not now and never will be a shortage of preachers and pastors who just know we are living in the final, absolutely last days. They make their living off it.

The signs are everywhere and every world event is assigned biblical import and meaning.  It's how you grow a church.  Not by teaching to enlighten the inner self, but live out a life of fear and "it won't be long now" and spread the fear to as many as possible, which is defined as "Doing the Work."

In Fundamentalist movements, the tradition goes on and becomes more pronounced as , earthquakes, floods, fire, volcanoes and "unusual" (they aren't)  events, or wars and rumors of wars, especially in the middle east rear their ugly heads. If someone blew up the Dome of the Rock, well... there... see, now tell us that Jesus is not a few minutes away from returning.

The fact that most wars are waged by either the Christians, Israelis or the Islamic nations, among and between themselves, which are the religions whose teachings are supposed to save us and make our lives better, doesn't seem to strike us as odd. In fact, at some deep level deeply religious fundamentalists, seem to believe that millions must die violently, so that "all these things can come to pass" and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit can be visited upon the Christian survivors... or Islamic or Israeli depending on who wins. Well of course, the Christians win.

Each knows who that it will be themselves that overcomes the other. It's in the book, all of them.
The most popular New Testament "proof texts" for this thinking among Christian Fundamentalists and Evangelicals, comes from Mark 13 and the parallel passages found in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. These written in answer to the disciples question... "WHEN shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of your coming?"

It's all about WHEN. The "when" is unknowable even if one believes with all their heart it has to be soon. The faithful forget that speculation on the future is always just that. It is not fact. It is not how it will be and all speculation over the past 2000 years as to "when", to date has been 100% wrong.
Far too many Pastor types base their entire ministry on the imminent return of Jesus.

It's all about the second coming and it's all about SOON for the most rabid and judgmental COG splinters. Those who question the wisdom of this mistaken approach to life become the scoffers who nip at the heels of the saints.

"...there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation,"

But running that risk, and with all due respect to the sincere seeker of Biblical truth, I predict that Jesus will not be returning any time soon.

Why not? Because in the very predictions of Jesus lie the fact that he was himself wrong about them. Jesus put a time limit in the context of his own predictions that has long since passed no matter how apologists endeavor to resurrect his prophecies for a yet future time.

"Verily I say unto you", This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:34).

We simply have to admit, at face value, Jesus was wrong and not only DID that generation pass away, but so have countless others that followed. Jesus has not been misunderstood in this statement. He was wrong. Sincere not doubt and it simply will not go into the bible-reader mind that this might be the simple truth of the matter. There has to be another explanation that makes Jesus right in this perspective not 2000 years past.

And there is! We have read it wrong. Jesus did not mean what he said and we can relax. Jesus wasn't talking to those people at that juncture in history.

"This generation" was not the one Jesus was talking TO, but rather the generation that "these things" would begin to happen IN. Whew! It's in the far future and means a future society when all these signs accelerate and come to a crashing finale ending with the Second Coming.

We now have wiggle room to account for the fact that Jesus has not returned yet. Jesus wasn't mistaken about his own times, he was referring to another time.

Gleason Archer, who offers this solutions to the "Jesus didn't mean it would be in his time," notes accurately what we all know 2000 years later.

"Obviously these apocalyptic scenes and earth-shaking events did not take place within the generation of those who heard Christ's Olivet discourse. Therefore Jesus could not have been referring to his immediate audience when He made this prediction..." (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, pg 338).

Archer has to say this as he cannot possibly entertain the idea that Jesus was himself wrong in his perceptions of the times in which he lived and his role in those times. Later in the Gospels, authors would lower the expectations of the early Church, who thought Jesus meant them by reminding them late in the game when it was obvious Jesus wasn't coming any time soon that "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Sorry, we forgot to tell you that in the beginning." As long as one is incapable of thinking Jesus was himself wrong the Kingdom of God being just around the corner if he did his part, the doctrine of disappointments would have to be addressed as time went on.

And so we simply need to ask a very simple question. To whom was Jesus speaking? From the opening NT texts, it is obvious that the disciples, apostles and members of the church thought it meant THEM and did not get any hint of Jesus meaning anything other than THEM in THEIR time, which was short. The idea that Jesus would "build my Church" came decades after Jesus death when most were dead or dying of old age and yet the end did not come. Jesus never envisioned a Church that would follow decades and millennia after his death. Jesus life would always be lived and lost in the context of Judaism and the Synagogue.

But back to the original question. To whom was Jesus speaking when he said the words and to whom did he mean for it to apply? The answer is within the context, plain and simple.
"Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matt 24:4)

"...ye shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars..." (Matt 24:6)

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted..." (Matt 24:9)

"When ye therefore shall see the the abomination of desolation..." (Matt 24:15)

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter..." (Matt 24:20)

"Behold, I have told you before." (Matt 24:25)

The context in which Jesus spoke was his own. The "you" that he was addressing was the group he was addressing then and the group to which all these things would happen for, and soon. Jesus was telling those disciples that these things would happen in their time. Jesus made a mistake in his perceptions.

In our time, Christians read the same words and see the "ye" and "you" as "me" and "us" just as the original disciples would have. The only difference is that the disciples actually were disappointed and this generation has yet to realize their own disappointment to come.

The proof that Jesus himself meant the people he was talking to is found in the fact that the "this generation" comment is actually the tale end of a much larger, often overlooked quote taken in it's entirety.

"So likewise YE (THEM) when YE (THEM)  shall SEE ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU, (THEM) THIS (THAT) generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:33-24 emphasis mine)

There is no reason to twist the words of Jesus to mean more than they were ever intended to mean. A scripture can never mean what it never meant. The early disciples and infant Church, knew it meant them and we see the gradual deterioration of their personal confidence in the immediacy of the Second Coming promise throughout the NT.

I Thessalonians 4:15-17 "...For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." Meaning...some would die, but not us who tell you this. Jesus still means us.

I Corinthians 15:51,52 "...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump..."  Meaning...some but not all of us would die, but it still means us (THEM)

Romans 13:11-12 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand..." Meaning...we had some doubts, but now we know it's almost here. Jesus still meant us.

James 5:8 "Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." Meaning...impatience was growing, hang in there. Jesus still meant us.

I John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." Meaning...Jesus still meant us.

I Peter 4:7 "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
Revelation 22:20 "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly...." Meaning...ok, it's been about 60 years, but Jesus still means us.

Obviously, everyone of these quoted hopes and statements were wrong. Jesus did not return for them and to date has not returned for anyone. Paul and the early church who wrote in his name was just as wrong as the many COG prophetic types are wrong in this time. And it is based on the fact that Jesus himself was wrong which I know most Christians can never come to admit.

For Paul it becomes....
" I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." Meaning...Ok, I give up, Jesus didn't mean us, or at least not me. I was wrong. 2 Timothy 4:8-9

...and at best, this will also become the reality for those alive today seeing the imminent return of Jesus in every newspaper and on every turn of the dial in this dangerous and contentious world of ours.


I'm not scoffing. Being accused of scoffing was a label for those in the early Church. The disciples expected Jesus return within days of his death and when they met him in Galilee, even doubted that. Its what you say to those that are becoming disillusioned but the others know that the return is still in their lifetime for sure. Scoffers were undermining the confidence of the early followers and disciples of Jesus. An observation is not scoffing. Observations are based on the passage of millennia. It's a 2000 year old observation. To motivate with fear, false prophetic fulfillment's of non- prophecies, and imagined prophetic accuracy on topics anyone could speculate somewhat accurately about, is simply foolishness and makes the Church, in any form look stupid and ignorant. Jesus said his generation would not pass until the Son of Man be come. He was mistaken.

So bent on not allowing the member to even remotely entertain the idea that Jesus was wrong, Paul was wrong and the Church is wrong , it was prudent to shift the blame for doubt to the member and thinker and away from the clergy, and thus we have...

2 Peter 3:3 "Knowing this first, (meaning---we forgot to add this apologetic) that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of....."

Obviously, the Church took Jesus words literally for them and not for some future generation. But still Jesus doesn't return to them. This shifts the problem to the scoffers, doubters and those that misunderstood Jesus and not the Church who needs to keep the hope of imminent return going like a carrot before the horse. The Church never entertained until they had to, the idea that Jesus didn't mean what he said about soon. It also implies that this doubt is deliberate and calculated. It can never just be doubt based on evidence and time just going on without any evidence of Jesus return.

Even with the temple gone and the Romans more in power than ever, He didn't return. It must have felt for them then as one might say today. "If Jesus didn't return for the Holocaust, what will it take."
The "scoffers will come" scripture was added when it was obvious to the Church that people could and were scoffing. And what some consider scoffing is merely noting that the thing spoken is not so. It's not evil, it's just stating the obvious and putting, in this case, the church on the spot to explain its continued use of imminent return going long.

It also lends credibility to Jesus mournful cry at the end of his life..."my God, my God...why have you forsaken me." I expect Jesus really meant that. It was a real shock not to have had things work out as one had supposed. Jesus had done his part. He had pushed the Romans right up to the edge and himself, right up to execution...and still, God did not intervene, sweep the Romans from the earth and set up the Kingdom. Only after Jesus actually died did the followers of Jesus have to rethink it all.

I know... and expect it to be said, "you'll think differently when Jesus returns, or you find yourself in hell with lots of time to rethink your position." I speak in the hope that the average Christian church member won't be motivated and won't tolerate pastors who use the fear of living their real lives, planning for futures and loving in the present to promote their own misguided agendas and speculations. One does not have to see the world only through the eyes of those that speculate on how things are or will be because frankly they don't and can't know. They have never gotten it right yet.


32 comments:

David Rickman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Your flight not be in winter. Depending on where you live on this planet it is winter somewhere. Winter in Australia is Summer in the USA.

Gordon Feil said...

"Only after Jesus actually died did the followers of Jesus have to rethink it all." So jesus actually existed now? Well Dennis, that does bring our opinions a little bit closer in alignment.

While I don't share your conclusions, I acknowledge that you do think. I have often said that I don't care about what a person believes as much as I do about how they came to believe it.

I don't agree that most wars are Islamic, Christian, or Jewish. Most of those wars about which we HEAR are, but the orientals and tribes of Africa have had millenia of wars. War is a human condition.

Near_Earth_Object said...

Diehl's essay was way long and I did not have time to read all of it but I got the gist.

Some viewpoints:

1. In the Gospels, Christ said himself that he did not know when he would return - only the Father actually knows. The disciples may have overlooked this qualification and focused on a rapidly developing eschatology.

2. There is a reference later in the Book of Revelation, where Christ says he would come quickly. You would think that by this time, he had been to heaven, talked it over with the Father and had a schedule correction. This statement is why I do not believe that Revelation belongs in the canon. Eusebius thought the book was iffy. Luther placed it last in the list, not because of some chronological significance, but because it seemed of seemed of questionable value.

3. As Protestants have pointed out, some scriptures may refer to individual, personal eschatology and not global eschatology.

4. What did Christ mean by the word quickly? We know what the disciples thought he meant but what did he actually mean.

Ed Mitchell said...

Not sure what point you are trying to make...

True Bread said...

Well written Dennis...

However I completely disagree with your position, for many reasons...a few I will list here. I think Armstrongism has seriously tainted your thought processes. Just because HWA was a diabolical fraud,why does that have bearing on the Creator or scripture...?? I didn't surrender my belief in scripture just because David Koresh or Jim Jones had cults.

One of the most misunderstood parts about the return of the Messiah "soon" or "quickly" is because most people don't consider it from their own perspective. Like if a believer died tonight, that would be the return of the Messiah for them. The term "generation" used in the Greek,is much different than the original Aramaic, which has TRIBE. In context, that makes perfect sense. Also, the Messiah never asked "Why have you forsaken Me..??" That also is a Greek translation from the original Aramiac, which basically renders it as "Why have you spared Me..??", meaning that He was ready to die, and He did shortly after making that comment.

And, how can you claim that "god" abandoned Him, when He resurrected Him three days later..?? Nonsensical.

We are on a prophetic timeline of events as I have briefly mentioned here many times. We are down to the feet and toes of Daniel's statue and events are happening exactly as laid out in scripture. The iron legs represent the ROMAN empire, and the four successive iterations that occurred:

1. Caesars
2. Napoleon
3. Hitler
4. Trump

All four of these rulers to a degree represent a type of antichrist, with Trump no doubt fulfilling the final iteration at this time. Having watched his speech on moving the embassy to Jerusalem yesterday, plus pushing for the end time "peace agreement" seals the deal that he is indeed the antichrist. He is also the "King of the North, who will use the power of the USA/NATO forces to take over the Middle East. You can easily prove this to yourself by just going to YT and search "Wesley Clark seven countries in five years". He was told that in the Pentagon on Sept 20 2001 by a general, that we would invade Iraq along with the other countries. You can also read Dr. Paul Craig Roberts articles on this exact point. He clearly lays it out that the USA is hell-bent on nuclear war with Russia/China....ie The King of the North (USA/NATO/Israel) taking on the Kings from the East (Russia/China). Sound familiar...?? Rome is north of Jerusalem. We are the FOURTH ROMAN EMPIRE.

Also, no one really understands what's happening on this planet. You and I, and everyone else, are NOT from this earth. And we will go back to where we came from upon death. At that point, it will be the "second coming" for us, from our perspective. The literal second coming will be, as I mentioned above, at Armageddon when the two blocks will attempt to annihilate on another with thermo-nuclear weapons. We are well on our way to that event. Also, Trump mentioned the Haram el Sharif in his speech yesterday. That won't be a factor when the world realizes that the Temples were never on that platform, but were all built down in the City of David just over the Gihon Spring. The Jews could easily rebuild a Temple there with no fear of warfare breaking out. So when we see the Temple being built and Trump sign the peace agreement, we can hit the stopwatch.

"And unless those days were shortened, there would be no flesh saved alive."

Lets hope these days ARE shortened.


keep the faith.

Anonymous said...

Christ's 'why have you forsaken me' refers to God the Father withdrawing the holy spirit from Christ. This was because Christ represented sin on the cross, and God will have nothing to do with sin. It means that God would destroy Christ if he hypothetically did a Satan.
This is a big contrast to today's ministers playing favorites, and putting their family above the law.

PS The holy spirit has told he that I will live to see the tribulation. So your intellectualising Dennis, is just that.

Anonymous said...

Oh my goodness, Dennis, you have this all wrong. Surely as a former minister you understand that the generation referred to was the one living during World War II when Hebert Armstrong began to prophesy. The sixth reincarnation of the Roman Empire was in full swing, what with Hitler and Mussolini and all, and one more was to come. That's what Revelation 17:10 means: "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." When the penultimate reincarnation of the beast power came along (the one that IS, present tense), God had to have someone on Earth who understood that, and that someone was Herbert Armstrong. That's what Jesus was referring to when he said that this generation will not pass until all these things are fulfilled. He was referring to the generation of the World War II era, and that generation includes those who were very young at that time, some only days or weeks old. Some of those people may live to be 100 or more years old. So we are probably looking at end-time events occuring around 2040 or 2050 when that generation finally begins to pass away. You just have to put it all together and it is clear as a bell. I know all this because Herbert Armstrong and his representatives told me so.

A. said...

Preterism my friends, Presterism.

Dennis Diehl said...

Reading the actual wordsin the text and in context is not intellectualizing them. That comes from those making them mean what they never meant by way of apologetics to explain away the now mistaken notions of the Gospels and later Apostles

Dennis Diehl said...

Gordon.
I am writing about the Jesus of the text as presented in the story. That may be far different from any Jesus of history for whom there is virtually no evidence outside of the story. Even Paul's Jesus was hallucinatory and he knows of no Gospel Jesus or quotes him when it would have been helpful to his cause to do so.

Also, Gospel accounts aren't eyewitness ones nor do they claim to be.

The names of the Gospels were added to originally anonymous works, Mark being the basis for Matthew who copies 94% and Luke copies over half from. Copiers aren't eyewitnesses.

Nuther story

Anonymous said...

5.33 PM
If I'm going to live to see the tribulation as informed by the holy spirit, it will be sooner than 2040 or 2050. Otherwise I would have died from old age.
The young, especially the very young have my deepest sympathy.

Anonymous said...

True Bread
After googling 'why have you forsaken me' it comes out that 25 translations use the word forsaken rather than your 'spared me.' Even the Aramaic in plain English translation uses the word forsaken.

Various explanations are used for Christ using these words (including reciting psalm 22:22-24) but the most common is that Christ experienced the mental pain of one separated from God by ones sins (God is far from the wicked).

Steve D said...

My understanding of the end time events come in part from Jewish culture in the time of Jesus. It is my understanding that Jesus doesn't know when he will return, only the Father. In Jewish culture, when a young man wants to propose to a young lady he approaches her with a glass of wine, a contract for marriage (a covenant) and some money. She read the contract, counts the money and if she agrees to the marriage she drinks the wine. The Lord's Supper is in a sense a renewal of our marriage contract as the bride of Christ. The young man then goes to his father's house and prepares a place for them to spend their honeymoon. Only after the father inspects the place and gives his approval does he allow the son to go get his bride (rapture). As he and his friends approaches the home of his bride they call out in a shout to warn her. Then he takes her to be with him in the house that he prepared for them. The rapture of the church is the event that takes the church to the place of safety to protect them from the tribulation. I believe that the Bible is true, but our understanding of it is oftentimes flawed. Knowing the language and culture of the time can help bring some clarity to our understanding. That's my understanding, as of now. But then again, at one time I sat at the feet of HWA and RCM at AC and thought I knew it ALL.

Steve D said...

My understanding of the expression, "This generation shall not pass" . . . refers, I believe, to the generation that experiences the events mentioned. In other words, once the tribulation starts, Jesus will return within THAT generation.

Nathan Wildes said...

True Bread, so you WRONGLY think that Donald Trump is the "antichrist"? I'll be praying for you, for you to come to your senses!

DennisCDiehl said...

Steve D said...
My understanding of the expression, "This generation shall not pass" . . . refers, I believe, to the generation that experiences the events mentioned. In other words, once the tribulation starts, Jesus will return within THAT generation.

That's the apologetic Steve for getting Gospel Jesus off the hook as time passed with no tribulation and Kingdom of God . That shift in meaning was discussed. The original quote shows clearly that Jesus was talking to those specific people at that time about events they would see and experience.

The proof that Jesus himself meant the people he was talking to is found in the fact that the "this generation" comment is actually the tale end of a much larger, often overlooked quote taken in it's entirety.

"So likewise YE (THEM) when YE (THEM)  shall SEE ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU, (THEM) THIS (THAT) generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:33-24 emphasis mine)

Sorry the explanation is "way long" but coming from those who are supposed to love the Bible and read it, way long as it is , strikes me as humorous. :)

Anonymous said...

" Not by teaching to enlighten the inner self, but live out a life of fear and "it won't be long now" and spread the fear to as many as possible, ..."


yeah yeah yeah, enlighten your inner self...in other words, do it your own way....it's been tried many times, and always leads to destruction....

those living in fear are the ones living their lives in a manner contrary to God's instructions, doing it their own way...those who love God (biblical definition: keep His commandments) are not afraid, but look forward to His return.

Minimalist said...


***Time is Short [1st century] must get Gospel Kerygma to all world before ~90AD***

All 'world' further away than they think [Australia]

***Must tell Australian Aboriginals Jesus is coming in a decade or two***

But in the meantime - good news - they are under the New Covenant meaning it's okay to continue eating unclean kangaroos, snakes, goannas and frogs as normal (like they have been doing for the last 60,000 years) (just stop worshiping Goannas.) But be warned, in a few years the Millennium will re-institute Kosher Laws, so they will have to run cattle and sheep and celebrate the Fall-Harvest-Festival (even though there is no Fall or harvest there at that time of the year in southern hemisphere..)

Dennis Diehl said...

Letting s little light in does not "always lead to destruction". Encouraging it however can lead to glittering religious generalities

Steve D said...

Dennis, just because something is said to the original disciples, does that mean that it is not also for us today? Otherwise, why would it have been recorded for us? As for bias, we are all subject to that. If I had a bad experience with a doctor doesn't mean that modern medicine is to be avoided. Likewise, just because HWA was in serious error and corrupt does not mean that Christianity, correctly understood, is.

Gerald Bronkar said...

Good post Dennis! Too bad the Fundamentalist Christians can't read and accept Bible prophecy for the pious fraud that it is. Waiting for the "Return of Jesus" is such an illusion, and a major waste of lives. Hopefully your words may help someone start to think and reason.

DennisCDiehl said...

Steve D said...
Dennis, just because something is said to the original disciples, does that mean that it is not also for us today? Otherwise, why would it have been recorded for us? As for bias, we are all subject to that. If I had a bad experience with a doctor doesn't mean that modern medicine is to be avoided. Likewise, just because HWA was in serious error and corrupt does not mean that Christianity, correctly understood, is.

It depends on what is said Steve. If they are told that what he is saying is for THEM, then it's not for us. All this article points out is the fact that all that is said in the Gospels was for them. It says that over and over and over. If, because it did not happen for THEM and we must not admit that the authors were mistaken, then we can make it mean whatever we wish to keep the authors from being mistaken. The authors were simply mistaken but that does not mean to fast forward to US as if it was for US.

When one makes those scriptures about US , that is rewriting the story to fit our needs theologically. It's done all the time of course because the Bible authors can't have been mistaken which they were.

My views on the real origins of Christianity, the politics of it and authorship etc have NOTHING to do with HWA being wrong. My WCG experience was merely the catalyst for me to "examine the scriptures to see if these things be so." They aren't as so as I was lead to believe and I am grateful to live in a time where modern theological research is far more honest than the apologetics offered to make it all mean what it never meant.

Had I been a Methodist Pastor, and that almost happened, I would have come to the same conclusions about the Bible. Maybe sooner but for sure.

Anonymous said...

12:33, Prove It! I would rather go to my grave having hope than being in ignorance having no hope in anything. Even IF, there is no afterlife, for me at least I'll die happy.

Gerald Bronkar said...

2:32 PM, the proof is that we are still living pre-tribulation in 2017 nearly 2000 years after Jesus made his prophetic statement. His prophecy failed. If that isn't proof to you, then you are a fundamentalist to the core. I hope you do die happy, with hope for more, but your Christian belief system is not real.

I have hope for more too, but the God of your Bible is a myth. If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, you need to read more widely. God would never communicate through the written word, which can be so easily twisted, misinterpreted and misunderstood.

If there is a loving God, he will save us all, not just a few select Christians. If you have children, it should be obvious to you.

True Bread said...


Nathan Wildes said...

True Bread, so you WRONGLY think that Donald Trump is the "antichrist"? I'll be praying for you, for you to come to your senses!


Nathan,

Do you live in a cave without cable TV or the internet...?? You do realize that Trump gave a major policy speech on Jerusalem recently stating:

1. He will move the Embassy to Jerusalem
2. He recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital
3. He emphasized repeatedly that he would achieve a peace agreement in the Middle East

If that doesn't define the role of the antichrist (King of the North) I don't know what does. If you own a bible, you can read all about it in Daniel 9. Also, as you only took exception to my position on Trump being the AC, I conclude you agree with the rest of my post...thanks for the support.

True Bread said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

True Bread
After googling 'why have you forsaken me' it comes out that 25 translations use the word forsaken rather than your 'spared me.' Even the Aramaic in plain English translation uses the word forsaken.


1:50

In the original Aramaic that I use, the phase is "Eli Eli lama azbatani" (AENT) I don't speak the language but have the translation, which basically breaks down to "why have you spared Me..??" or "why are you still sparing Me..??" Then He died. He never committed any sin, so in no way was He ever separated from His Father. That is HWA whack-jobbery nonsense.

Also, in the same chapter, "generation" is translated TRIBE, which makes perfect sense. I highly recommend the Aramaic-English NT by Andrew Gabriel Roth.

And I don't recommend Google as your source for Theology....

DennisCDiehl said...

Since everyone was sleeping in the case of the Agony in the Garden or all had fled, I wonder exactly who wrote down what occurred when no one was around to record it? And who was able to eavesdrop on Plate and his wife to get the dream for the story?

Anonymous said...

5.30 PM
On the cross, all the sins of mankind were placed on His shoulders. God has nothing to do with sin, so God the Father might have withdrawn emotionally or withdrawn the holy spirit from Christ.

Sure, let's not google for other theologians opinions on scripture, since all wisdom and understanding residues in the infallible True Bread.
Do you fancy yourself a modern day William Tyndale?

Anonymous said...

6.24 PM
Glad you asked Dennis. It was God who observed the Agony in the garden and who eavesdropped on Pilate and his wife. He then inspired it to be in today's bible.
Any other questions?

I Like Halloween Candy said...

The Lord took this drunk and through his Spirit cleaned my life up. If God isn't real I would just take my life. Gerald Bronkar, it doesn't matter what you believe, you don't tell me what I can or cannot believe!

What About The Truth said...

Mr. Diehl,

Your conclusion of: "I speak in the hope that the average Christian church member won't be motivated and won't tolerate pastors who use the fear of living their real lives, planning for futures and loving in the present to promote their own misguided agendas and speculations" has already been circumvented by one pastor, apostle and church leader. This man did it by using many of the same scriptural statements that you have made here. When the heat form a few in the ministry and some members got a little hot concerning the many errors in his magnificent "Story never told", he opined in a sermon that all the apostles got it wrong and why wasn't he getting cut any slack. After the sermon concluded, a leading man in our congregation got up and said, "So, Peter got it all wrong" with a big smile on his face. In essence we where told, if you want to accuse me of error, you will have to accuse the biblical apostles as well. So the church member in this organization is left with the thinking that there is no misguided agendas on the part of the leader, only misguided thinking on the part of the member if they choose to go down the road of questioning the one. That pastor and self-appointed apostle is David C. Pack.