They refuse to change their business model, they refuse to adapt, they hang on to failures, they embrace falsehoods, they hang to decades-old business models, and don't even seem to try when it comes to promoting their "brand". How is it that they can seemingly be this incompetent?
No one ever said that the leadership of the Churches of God (Armstrong) had Masters of Business Administration degrees. No one ever even said they were qualified to even be a manager of anything. Most of them have lived their whole lives in Armstrongism in one form or another - and many got their degrees not from business school but from Ambassador College. Truth be said, many of them have no business at all leading a Candy Shop at the corner of a small town than a religious "non-profit" organization. Yet, there they are, doing what they do. What gives?
Most of us who read this blog know what Herbert did and how he did it to bring up his church. The conditions of his time were favorable for the rapid growth of a fear-based, prophetic-oriented, end-times religion. After just coming out of two nearly back-to-back world wars, the development of potentially world-ending nuclear weapons, and rapidly advancing industry and technology, the changing from one age to another seemed to indicate the "end of the world", not the end of an age. Herbert was successful in getting his followers to believe that the age to begin was his version of "a world tomorrow", not the current information and technological age of science we currently are experiencing. As we know, his vision of "the world tomorrow" was not accurate to what the reality was to be.
Yet it is this exact, failed "vision" of the "world tomorrow" that current Armstrong Apologists continue to propagandize. They continue to promote the falsehoods that classic Armstrongism wrongly promoted. They seemingly forget or are blind to the fact that the version that Armstrong promoted is not only out of date, out of reality, unsound, and proven completely incorrect in nearly every angle, they "obliviously" pretend it is still present truth and still to come "just around the corner". So the question, again, looms. What gives? Do they honestly truly believe this, or is there another motivation that causes such ignorance?
If they were to admit that Herbert Armstrong was incorrect and that the world has changed, and is a far different reality than predicted, what do you imagine would happen. If they were to admit that Herbert's theology - and the entire basis for his religion (such as British Israelism) was incorrect, the first thing that would happen is they would lose the loyal base that supports them. If they were to admit that the premise of Armstrong's theology had failed (prophetic interpretations, government, the world tomorrow, Armageddon, the 20th Century, 6000 years) was absolutely wrong, they would lose their entire support base. In other words, they would lose money and their jobs.
What they have to do at this point in time is to first and foremost, keep their base. No one is coming to replace the aging crowd of Armstrong supporters that are left. Each of the splintered scattered groups is trying to hang on to whatever shreds of the past they have left. To do this, they have to make an illusion that they are doing a "work" using the same "gospel" and the same "methods" as Herbert did to convince the stranglers that they are still the church while hanging on to the "foundations" - namely, the Sabbath, the Holy Days, and the "name of the Church". What they have learned is that it does not take much to convince the stranglers they are doing " a work", even if they are using outdated and antiquated technologies no one listens to or cares about - radio and television, where "end time preachers" and money-hungry evangelists are not only a dime a dozen, but easily researched and debunked with an hour's time on the internet. This doesn't matter to the old-timers, because "the gospel's still being published". All that is necessary for them is to put out "token work" to satisfy the tithe-base that supports them.
Secondly, they have to continue to assert the illusion that they are God's Authority and ministry. To do this, they continue to rattle the same tired cliches to keep the "programming" and "brainwashing" active. This is done by maintaining the "COG Culture" of threats, government, appearances, and structure". This is why they cannot change from the past. If they make any moves to change from the past, they run the very real risk of the Old Timers withholding their tithes and ultimately quitting. This means that they have to hold on to the same liturgy, formats, and structures from the past. If they change any aspect of the past, they could lose their base. If they lose their base, there is no guarantee of replacements to come. They already see what happened when the mother Church gambled and lost on the premise of dramatic change. In other words, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they make changes, they lose members. If they keep the current format, no one new is coming in because it's proven false and incorrect. So what then is a COG leader today to do?
That answer is based on the one thing that they need to keep their positions and "power" somehow intact: Money. They must hold on to their members, keep the income coming in long enough for themselves until they retire or die, make the illusion of some sort of work being done while maintaining most of the funds to continue their lifestyle. They must somehow make old, tired, worn, cliched sermons seem relevant, while somehow trying to gain new members. Unfortunately, the only member base that exists to gain from is other splinter churches from the same mold. Experiments to gain from the outside world fail spectacularly, so all there is is COG Cannibalism - eating from their own to gain whatever slight income increases that they can get. What does this mean then?
If my theory is anywhere near correct - it means all one can truly expect is stagnation to come. As the groups slowly die off, you can expect no choice but mergers in the next decade as a means to survive. Authoritarianism will increase, and lies, threats, and deception will become more absurd and panic-based as their bases shrink. Unless Herbert Armstrong is somehow cloned in mannerism, authority, and ingenuity, the only ones that will benefit from the deceptive greed of Armstrong Splinters are the very top, while the rest simply hang on because there is nowhere else to go.
The current crop of COG Leadership is not stupid, nor are they incompetent. They are greedy, calloused, and uncaring business executives who can't imagine any other way to maintain their income or lifestyle except off the backs of the "dumb sheep" who pay their bills and buy their cars. And as long as these supporters continue to feed them off their income, the vampire ministers will continue to suck them dry, intentionally, deliberately, and with depravity. Because it's the only way they know to live while convincing themselves their delusions are god-ordained and real. The ones who are really being harmed are those who put their trust in mortals, for in them is no help.
submitted by SHT
submitted by SHT
34 comments:
Ironically, all this as they repeat the mantra that “knowledge will increase in the end times.” You’d think that they’d want to take advantage of the increase in knowledge, and utilize it themselves.
BB
Its the Sears Roebuck business model, which was unable to adapt and change with the times, and relied too long on past glory.
Furthermore, by not being market driven and empowering , the COGS relied on central planning, and central monetary collection, without allowing for any entrepreneurial local change, nor local financial accountability.
The membership cannot fire bad ministers or elect boards for oversight of the ministry, (I understand that there may be "advisory boards" , but with no real power or oversight on the employment of a minister). All of this leads to very little accountability to the actual membership, and the membership is forced to consume whatever slop flows thru the unresponsive system.
It is sort of like Venezuela, or Cuba. Centralized planned, socialist/communist systems do not work, nor do they survive. There MUST be creative destruction, and the removal of those who are "uneconomic" in any system to survive. How is it possible that virtually every minister has lifetime employment and (rarely) do any of them ever gets fired! With no accountability, and with the check coming into the home mailbox every week, why would anybody expect any of these guys to be truly creative, dedicated, and forward thinking??
Sabbatarianism will survive, and can be considered a legitimate "market niche" in the Christian community of believer choice. Just like Target, Home Depot and Amazon have replaced Sears, Armstrongiist churches will be replaced too. I see the SDA church surviving, and the "Sardis" COG 7th Day surviving if not prospering in the 21st century, with exceptional growth for both of them in the emerging markets.
Tonto, I think you encapsulated a lot of what I was bringing forth in this article. It's funny - when I go by the local SDA Church the parking lot is always full - it looks like as many people go there as the WCG Congregations of the past.
The following scenario is strictly assuming God's Plan of Salvation is true and being carried out. Please discuss as if you are believers.
Regarding the Holy Day Plan of God, can someone enlighten me on how the Last Great Day is to be implemented. COG believers are taught that all the rest of the dead - those never know the truth but are now resurrected for their first chance to know God. Let's say, the last 6,000 years have accumulated 200 generations( 1 generation = 30 years). Do all these generations appear all at one time to live 100 years (Isa 65:20)? At what age will they appear? At 10, 20, 30, 60,or the age they died? If they are grouped into the 1970s group era, for example, would they be shocked to see their young surviving family members turn into old people like they were when they died in their old age. Let's say, a woman died in 1975 at 55 years old. The surviving husband died in 2013 at 93 years old. Meanwhile, more family members were added to this family's generation while the husband was still alive. Would both husband and wife be resurrected at the age they died? Would the wife be shocked to see an old husband and the husband to see a young wife? And her children are now older than her physically? Also her grand children? What about occupations, marriages, education, sports, etc?
Have any present or former COG members ever ponder on this issue?
I have a keen interest in business development --- I have a doctorate in business and I act as a sort of consigliere to business owners. Marketing is on my mind. Some years back I counselled leaders in more than one sabbatarian church of God group in regards to branding and market development. I can say that growing huge is not everyone's aim. For some, the thought is that God will call whom he chooses and we really can't do much about that. For some, the aim is to warn, not to win. Some of these churches are not meant to be businesses.
@7:46 ~ The concensus always seemed to be that older people would be resurrected in their prime condition, like in their 30s.
BB
"They refuse to change their business model, they refuse to adapt, they hang on to failures, they embrace falsehoods, they hang to decades-old business models, and don't even seem to try when it comes to promoting their "brand". How is it that they can seemingly be this incompetent? "
spoken like a true protestant.
The Church is not some sort of club that recruits members...it's an organization that ministers to those called by God into it.
that being said, there are far more false churches out there than True Churches, and you've written about several of them on this blog.
those groups that are genuinely part of The Church do not have a business model, we simply follow God's instructions, and He add to our number as He sees fit.
@7:46
since the purpose of the 2nd resurrection is to put everyone on a level field to give them an unencumbered opportunity for salvation, it's highly unlikely that there will be any remembrance of this life.
I think Isaiah writes that the former things will not be remembered nor come to mind...
10:51 When, pray tell has Armstrongism EVER followed God's instructions. Its top leaders have been rapists, pedophiles, liars and false propehts. It has been one lie after another. The church has denied everything about Jesus when it demands to keep the law.
Taking Scripture out of context (part 1)
While off topic, this maybe of interest to those who use 1 Pet 4:17 to support their understanding of what happens after the second resurrection.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
“And the apostle Peter mentioned (1 Pet. 4:17) that the JUDGEMENT had begun with the Church. Those God has called to come to him through Jesus Christ during this Church age have been here and now judged, during this life. But judgment has not yet come to the world...
“Following the millennial reign of Christ and the Church on earth, however, shall come the time of God’s JUDGMENT on this world...” (Herbert W. Armstrong, Mystery of the Ages, pp.351-52).
1 Peter 4
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
“7 Talking about the final judgment and their vindication at it is far from wishful thinking for Peter, for “the end of all things is near.” The phrase itself is unique, but its sense is clear. Jesus in the Gospels says that “the one enduring to the end will be saved” (Matt. 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13) and that before this end certain events must happen (Mark 13:7; Luke 21:9). Similar terminology for the close of the age is echoed by Paul (1 Cor. 10:11; 15:24) and John (Rev. 2:26). The phrase used here points to this linear concept of history in the NT and therefore the end of this historical age with all that is associated with it (therefore, “the end of all things”). This end is “near,” that is, about to happen (cf. Matt. 26:45-46; Mark 14:42, where the term is used for an event that happened within a few minutes or hours). This sense of the impending eschaton (with all the suffering and deliverance associated with it) is well known in the NT...” (Peter H. Davids, the First Epistle of Peter, NICNT, pp.155-156).
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
“4:12 / Dear friends signals the beginning of a new section, as Peter returns to the subject of suffering... That a painful trial [NIV] should not come to those who have committed their lives to God’s safe keeping should not cause surprise...
“The painful trial is less dramatic rendering than the Greek warrants, for the expression suggests an ordeal by fire - a purifying in a furnace (a “fiery trial,” KJV). Evidently Peter had heard of some experience of suffering his readers were facing beyond what might be expected in the course of their everyday life among unsympathetic pagans, who naturally disliked people who were different. It could possibly indicate some form of more or less official persecution” (Norman Hillyer, 1 and 2 Peter, Jude, NIBC, p.130).
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
“4:17 / Peter returns to the them of divine judgment (4:5-6). That judgment is imminent. The last times are here. Furthermore, and this may have come as a surprise to Peter’s readers in view of all they were already going through, the judgment will begin with the family of God. Christians are not exempt. But what is the purpose behind the judgment of believers? Peter has touched on this at the beginning of his letter: it is to refine faith, for faith in God’s sight is infinitely precious. On the human level, even gold has to go through the crucible (1:7)...
“The judgment that begins at the house of God will mean a refining of God’s people (Mal. 3:3). No purifying process can be painless, but believers can take heart from the knowledge that all that they suffer has an end, a goal: it is for their ultimate good in the purposes of God (Rom 8:18)...” (Norman Hillyer, 1 and 2 Peter, Jude, NIBC, p.133).
Taking Scripture out of context (part 2)
“17. For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God puts verses 12 to 16 in a broader theological context. ‘What is going on in the world?’ the readers might wonder. ‘Why are God’s people suffering and evildoers going unpunished?’ Peter explains that the ‘fiery ordeal’, or ‘refining fire’, of verse 12 is really a fire of God’s judgment. Yet this word for judgment (krima) does not necessarily mean ‘condemnation’ (which would be katakrima) but is a broader term which can refer to a judgment which results in good and bad evaluations, a judgment which may issue in approval or discipline as wall as condemnation. The picture is that God has begun judging within the church, and will later move outward to judge those outside the church. The refining fire of judgment is leaving no one untouched, but Christians are being purified and strengthened by it - sins are being eliminated and trust in God and holiness of life are growing.
“The translation household of God emphasizes the family-like nature of the church. But this translation seems hardly justifiable in terms of the Greek phrase oikos tou theou (‘house of God’). Dennis Johnson [‘Fire in God’s House: Imagery from Malachi 3 in Peter’s Theology of Suffering (1 Peter 4:12-19)’ JETS 29:3 (Sept, 1986), pp.291-292. O Michel says, ‘oikos theou is a fixed term for the sanctuary in the LXX; (TDNT 5, p.120)] has argued persuasively that this phrase in the LXX never refers to the ‘household’ of God’s people, but always to the Temple, the ‘house of God’ in terms of the building in which God dwells. Thus, it is likely that it should be translated ‘house of God’ here as well.
“This argument gains support when we recall Peter’s only other use of the word oikos, ‘house’, in 2:5: ‘Coming to him, you are being built into a spiritual house’... Moreover, the text literally reads not with but ‘from’ (apo): ‘The time has come for judgment to begin from the house of God.’
Eze 9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Eze 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
“Such a translation allows Johnson correctly to see this verse in light of two other Old Testament passages, Ezekiel 9 and Malachi 3. Ezekiel 9 pictures the Lord calling to ‘the executioners’ of judgment to ‘draw near’ (9:1) to bring judgment on Jerusalem for is horrible sins. One messenger of God puts a mark on the forehead of all those wh were found to ‘sigh and groan’ over the ‘abominations’ committed in Jerusalem (9:4-5).
Taking Scripture out of context (part 3)
“Then the executioners’ of judgment are told to kill all who do not have the mark on their foreheads (9:5-6). Significantly, God tells the executioners, ‘Begin from [I [i.e, the author of the commentary] have given my own translation of the LXX here, to bring out the verbal parallels with 1 Peter 4:17] my sanctuary,’ and Ezekiel adds, ‘So they began from the elders who were inside the house’ (9:6). The words ‘begin from’, used twice here, are the same words Peter uses to say that it is time for judgment to ‘begin from (archomai apo) the house of God. ‘House’ (oikos) is also the same word in both places. Both 1 Peter 4:17 and Ezekiel 9:6 have mention of God’s glory before and after them (1 Peter 4:14 and 5:1; Ezk. 9:3 and 10:4). Finally, whereas Ezekiel’s judgment begins with ‘the elders’ who are in God’s house, Peter begins his next section of admonition, ‘Therefore, I exhort the elders among you ...’ (5:1; the word for ‘elders’ is presbyteroi in both cases. It seems very likely that the judgment scene of Ezekiel 9 is in Peter’s mind when he writes, indicating that God’s judgment will begin with God’s house (now the church;... and then spread outward to destroy unbelievers.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
“But the mention of the ‘fiery ordeal’ or ‘refining fire’ (v. 12) which does not destroy but purifies God’s people calls to mind a second Old Testament passage, whose vivid imagery may have been joined with that of Ezekiel 9 as Peter wrote. Malachi 3 predicts that the Lord himself ‘will suddenly come to his temple’ as ‘the messenger of the covenant’ who is like a refiner’s fire’ (3:1-2; ‘fire’ is pur in the LXX, not the same word but a related word to pyrosis, ‘refining fire’, in Peter 4:12). Malachi adds, ‘he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD’ (Mal. 3:3); ‘Then I will draw near to you for judgment ...’ (on unbelievers: Mal. 3:5).
“Johnson rightly points out that though Peter’s language may have been more influenced by Ezekiel 9, the concepts in 1 Peter 4:12-19 are closer to the picture of Malachi 3: the Lord himself is acting as a refining fire, purifying the priests (‘the sons of Levi’; cf: 1 Pet. 2:5, 9), so that they may offer sacrifices pleasing to the Lord (cf. 1 Pet. 2:5). Then the judgment which began at God’s house (the temple, Mal. 3:1) will move from there to unbelievers, no longer as a purifying fire but as a judgment of condemnation - which brings us back to 1 Peter 4:17: ‘For the time has come for judgment to begin with the house of God; and if it begins with (Greek ‘from’, apo) us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?’ ‘The thought is simply: “If the purifying fire of God’s eschatological visitation ... entails, for those united to Christ, such anguish as Peter’s readers are undergoing, what shall the consummation of that purifying divine presence mean for those who have rejected God’s good news - if not a conflagration of utter destruction?”’ [Johnson, art. Cit., p.292].
Taking Scripture out of context (4)
“The application of this passage to Peter’s readers should be clear: if the Lord is already in the midst of his new temple (i.e. his people), they should ‘not be surprised at the refining fire which comes among you (Greek en humin, ‘in the midst of you’) to prove you ... the Spirit of glory and of God is resting upon you’ (vv. 12, 14). He is the ‘messenger of the covenant in whom you delight’ (Mal. 3:1), so that they can ‘rejoice’ (v.13) in his presence. But with him also comes a refining fire, and they must purify themselves of all iniquities in order to avoid the pain of his disciplining judgment, even while they continue trusting him who alone cab enable them to stand before himself (v.19).
“[Readers of less literal modern translations, in particular the NIV and TEV, have no chance of discovering these OT parallels which make the passage understandable, for the two key terms have lost in translation which only contain generally related ideas: ‘purifying fire’ has become ‘painful trial’ in the NIV in v.12, with the ideas of ‘fire’ totally lost; and ‘house of God’ has become ‘family of God’ in v.17...]
1Pe 4:17a and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
“18. This verse has the same theme, but expressed this time in words taken directly from Proverbs 11:31 (LXX): ‘If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?’ The fire of God’s holiness is so intense that even the righteous feel pain in its discipline. The impious (a godless person a person without true reverence for God) and sinner will, by implication, find it to be a fire of eternal destruction” (Wayne Grudem, 1 Peter, TNTC, pp.181-84).
You make it sound as if the leaders know that they are wrong in what they preach, but simply trying to keep the income flowing to support themselves, rather than sincere, but deceived individuals who believe they are doing what is right. I tend to believe that they are the latter. It the leadership knew better, someone would have "spilled the beans" by now. It is like the conspiracy theory that the moon landing was a hoax. In order for it to be a hoax, thousands of workers who were involved would have had to have kept the secret. Yet, even a small number of government official couldn't keep the Watergate break-in a secret. I think that the leadership is suffering from belief perseverance, where people cling to their beliefs, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. They have invested too much of their lives into the system to allow themselves entertain other views and to walk away.
Anon 3:37 AM, how do you explain Gerald Weston? His LCG in 2018 had its highest income ever, yet Weston chose to cut back on the amount of money LCG spent on preaching the gospel? He didn't jus cut back on the percentage; he cut back the ACTUAL DOLLARS that LCG spent. Instead, he spent more money than ever on protecting the health of the LCG corporation, and then he used the rest of the money to pay ministers more than ever before.
If Weston is a true believer, he believes in a corporation, not in a message. Under Meredith there were problems, but at least LCG was unique in its priority of preaching the gospel. Now, if your priority is preaching the gospel, LCG is no better than UCG. If your priority is preserving a healthy corporation and ministry to serve God's people, LCG is far worse than COGWA. The only reason to be with LCG is if you like your local minister or the LCG congregation is a shorter drive for you than UCG or COGWA.
Anon 3:37 AM needs to take a look at what these leaders were preaching in 1994, after the Tkach changes but before UCG formed.
Most of the splinter leaders and top ministers today were preaching the Tkach changes during 1994 and early 1995. How can anyone call those individuals "sincere but deceived"? They knew that their job was to preach what would continue their paychecks. If that's sincerity, then their one sincere belief is to preach whatever the Home Office requires. There's a name for that kind of "minister".
Also, as for the leaders not being sincere, there are plenty of reports around Flurry, Luker, Hulme, Meredith, Weinland, and others to suggest that they have held to private standards of behavior that they didn't consider acceptable for their members.
10.51 PM
True churches don't have a business model?? I remind you that Herb and his ministers used terror religion as their business model. A member was told to keep driving around the block until the minister said stop, or he wouldn't be told when to flee. Tyrannical government with members literally treated like children is a business model. And no, this is not following Gods instruction.
Herb was a social justice warrior with his give way, and church tyranny. This is like your typical banana republic. Again, a business model.
Has it occurred to you that God has reduced the number of people He otherwise would have called because of the toxic church culture?
Christs words of condemnation towards the unrepentant cities, equally applies to today's splinter ministers.
I just read an article by a retired army officer who said that he got the best results from his men by treating their lives as precious, and treating them respectfully. But no, not Herbs men. Rather they treat their members like dog crap.
That is certainly a kindly way of characterizing them, 3:37. Also, there are those “innocents” who are totally capable of remaining wilfully ignorant. Surely, though, even the most stalwart has to at least wonder why the end never seems to have come around in the past 44 years, what about the incest, and what if the science of dna is actually right? Cruel and unjust church leadership must certainly have raised at least one or two eyebrows. Why has there been no breakout splinter, a designated ball carrier, prominent, and getting out the message at least as powerfully as in the ‘60s? Seems like all we witness is the death spiral, with leaders demanding more of the resources of fewer and fewer members, and no perceivable message.
One would think that the evidence against Armstrongism had become incontrovertable by this point in time.
BB
3:37 -
You may very well be correct for "some" of them that they may be "sincere, but deceived individuals who believe they are doing what is right" - but I have to wonder if they have deluded themselves into sincerity. I tend to believe there are more in the "upper tier" who base their decisions financially than on sincerity. When I see all of them join up as one Church - even for a Feast - then I may put more stock into their "sincerity". It all seems to be a smokescreen, not one of them is willing to put the power and tithes aside for "a bigger purpose".
For those who are sincere but deceived, you have to wonder how much of this is fueled by mental illness and outright depravity. The level of cold-heartedness and the level of greed is what strikes me as the most sincere.
@7:46 - I don't try to figure it out. I'm letting God figure it all out and I'll just focus on trying to be the best human I can be. All humans can do is limit God because as humans we are limited.
Better to focus on the life we have before it is too late. After more than fifty years of exposure to this cult, and its horrific track record, I say the proof is in the pudding.
Yes and no, I'd like to readf your analysis, but anymore I want to know the conclusion first, then the analysis. This is not so I can choose to read only those things I agree with, but rather whether it is of interest to me or not and, if so, then I can better see where the argument is going and whether there is strong bias in the construction of the argument.
I've learned to scroll down to the bottom of the article to see who the author is before reading anything here at Banned. Interestingly, this article says posted by No2HWA, but I could tell from the style it was written by SH*T himself. I scroll down first just to be sure not to read any of his pontificating crap. Even when SH*T isn't given credit you can still tell it's his diatribe.
I for one appreciate the articles SHT writes. He brings up subjects no one else cares about, but that we should have been thinking about when in the cult. If you don't like his articles then don't read them. Whiney people fascinate me.
8.27 AM
I reject the 'sincere but deceived' line. That's often the case with young people who have been exposed to only one point of view.
But by the time people reach old age, it's rarely the case. By old age, people have been repeatedly challenged in their beliefs, and been forced to truly choose.
On many occasions in the church, I complained to both ministers and members. Typically they built mental defenses which strengthened their wrong ways.
Giving people the benefit of the doubt typically works against ones best interest.
And the people who push the giving others every benefit of the doubt are rule rigging crooks.
9:59 For future reference if it’s by SHT or another poster and not NO2HWA it’ll state “submitted by SHT” or something to that effect.
How you could’ve missed that idk. Maybe you’re blinded by your emotions and so missed it.
I for one enjoy reading SHT’s posts! :-)
RB
I’ve contemplated the scenario of the second resurrection or “resurrection of the unjust” myself. I think those who are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgement will be as BB said in the “prime” of their life e.g. 20 years of age.
10:55 said: “...it's highly unlikely that there will be any remembrance of this life.”
I have to respectfully disagree otherwise what would be the purpose for this life and all of its lessons? If you’re correct one might as well take one’s own life and end the suffering now since you’ll arise to a new you without any memory of any love or hate, joy or pain. You’ll start afresh. Honestly I’ve sometimes wondered if those who are raised in the GWTJ won’t actually be living another life, but will be judged based on their thoughts, words and deeds in their first life. If they then accept Christ’s death as payment for their sins and His life work of righteousness in place of their own good works then they will be deemed innocent and enter into paradise. If they reject Christ’s work they’ll be pronounced guilty and sentenced to the second death in gehenna. Any thoughts on this scenario please share.
10.28 PM
We are our memories. It's who we are.
If someone claims that our memories will not exist in the next life, it can only mean that they want their crimes against others hidden.
HWA is not that different from anyone else. There is not a single blog that lets the truth be published. They all censor. They all support some kind of death and hate and abuse and lies.
10:11pm The article did not originally state "submitted by SHT". Though I'm not the one who is anti SHT posts, I too read the article expecting to find SHT's name attached to it but it wasn't there originally. I knew it didn't read like one of Gary's articles though.
11.26 AM
Then why not tell us your truth about HWA?
I've had dealings with an elderly minister and found him to be a liar and very covetous. He loves money and hasn't missed a ministerial pay check in 50 years. He said in a sermon "I've been in this business 50 years. He disgusts me.
I've had dealings with an elderly minister and found him to be a liar and very covetous. He loves money and hasn't missed a ministerial pay check in 50 years. He said in a sermon "I've been in this business 50 years. He disgusts me.
RB writes:
“Honestly I’ve sometimes wondered if those who are raised in the GWTJ won’t actually be living another life...”
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days; for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
I can’t prove from the Bible the HWA scenario of another life - first real chance. Just like 1 Peter 4:17, Isa 65:20 is also taken out of its context.
“The two Sabbaths may picture the Millennium and the Eternal Rest” (William Macdonald, Believer's Bible Commentary).
(Should be the two Sabbathons, these days are not Sabbaths).
I would suggest that if there was another life, it could be pictured by the six non-holy days of the FOT.
Helmut Fraund posted this, selected quote, on James Malm’s website in October 2011:
“Lev. 25:10 states that in the Jubilee year, people shall be liberated, “and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.” Since every fiftieth year is a Jubilee year, and God does everything orderly, it could be that the people will be resurrected ... in courses... Could it be that these courses are in the order of “the last shall be first”? The first group to be resurrected would be those whose children are still alive, in other words, the generation of our parents and those who died in the end time plagues. Then, 50 years later, in the next Jubilee year, it would be the turn for the generation of our grandparents and so on. This would take care of the logistics of who takes care of whom. And the resurrected ones would be received by their own still living children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren etc. Thus at every subsequent Jubilee, the previous generation would be returned, by resurrection, to their own families, children and children’s children (the most precious of their possessions).
“6000 years divided by 50 years would be about 120 such liberations from death, all the way back to Adam and Eve, who would be surprised to find themselves in the last resurrection. (The first shall be last).”
(Note: The Jubilee year is the first year of the next seven year cycle just as Pentecost is on the first day of next seven-day week).
Ge 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
Ge 42:21 And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us.
Ge 47:11 And Joseph placed his father and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.
Speculation:
While Joseph - no recorded of sin - is a type of Christ; Joseph testing of his brothers maybe a type for the Great White Throne Judgment - testing of the resurrected, hopefully, leading to repentance and life in the land.
A big thank you for Yes and No to HWA and all who respond to my topic on GWTJ.
I am enlightened by your input.
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