It is quite possible I am reading a bit too much between the lines. So I just ask the question. I learned how to do this from Bob the Prophetic Fudger. But when Bob Thiel notes that HWA was definitely NOT the Elijah to come but...
"Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth."
...I have to wonder what he's implying.
(Ok, that's my title for his title)
"PCG claims Herbert Armstrong restored all things, but he did not, nor did he ever make that claim. HWA's writings show he was NOT the Elijah to come"
"Herbert W. Armstrong never claimed to have restored ALL THINGS (Mark 9:12). Neither did he nor the Bible define ALL THINGS as Joel Hilliker has.
Since the Bible does teach that there will be an ‘Elijah’ who is alive right before Jesus returns (Malachi 4:5-6), thus it is not possible that Herbert W. Armstrong was the prophesied final Elijah.
Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth.
Yet, most Christians seemingly refuse to accept that."
"Herbert W. Armstrong never claimed to have restored ALL THINGS (Mark 9:12). Neither did he nor the Bible define ALL THINGS as Joel Hilliker has.
Since the Bible does teach that there will be an ‘Elijah’ who is alive right before Jesus returns (Malachi 4:5-6), thus it is not possible that Herbert W. Armstrong was the prophesied final Elijah.
Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth.
Yet, most Christians seemingly refuse to accept that."
25 comments:
...I have to wonder what he's implying.
Yes, I wondered where he was going with that too.
He may be "restoring more truth" as he understands it, but I feel there are some fundamental errors in his theology that, unless changed, would definitely prevent him from "restoring all things".
Somehow, I think Bob is weary of claiming he is a prophet to an unbelieving audience, and really longs for one to ask him, "Are you Elijah?" If anyone does, I hope Bob will respond like John the Baptist, "No, I am not!"
The church teaching was that HWA had restored all things, and was the end time Elijah. Anyone who claims otherwise is hiding behind technicalities and plausible deniability. Something the church had mastered.
Dennis brings up good question, who is the Elijah to be here before the Messiah’s return?
And, is he one of the two witnesses? Plus, if he is, who is the second witness? Can they be two modern day men?
In a long discussion with Marion McNair he brought up a couple really good points that make the answer seem so simple. If his points are accurate then the two are biblical personalities, not modern men. That would leave out Bob Thiel, and, sorry to say , you too Dennis.
Elijah has already been mentioned but the other one has been the bigger question. Yet, a direct instruction to him in the Bible just might solve the problem.
Remember Mel Brooks comedy the “2,000 year old man” routine? Well, the two witnesses are 2,000 (almost) years old, and 3,000 years old, plus or minus, if the thinking is true.
Any good guesses?
5:44 said: "The church teaching was that HWA had restored all things, and was the end time Elijah. Anyone who claims otherwise is hiding behind technicalities and plausible deniability. Something the church had mastered."
What exactly did Herbie restore? It certainly wasn't doctrine because if you look at the COG today it is a hell hole of doctrinal divides with not one single group agreeing with the next.
It wasn't turning the hearts of the fathers to their children or the children's hearts to their fathers. The ground is littered in the COG movement with broken families, marriages, and literally with dead bodies of COG members who were destroyed by the church and its teachings.
It certainly was not the true government because never has the COG seen such a rebellious mess of miscreant leaders out there claiming all kinds of divine rights and anointings.
It certainly was not directing people to Jesus Christ. Instead, the COG has sacrificed its member on the altar to Moses as it worshipped the law and denied the giver of grace.
6.03 PM
If the two witnesses are biblical personalities, they would be out of their depth. They could be asked Gods perspective on certain contemporary issues or personalities. These "cavemen" would be at a loss or struggling to answer any such questions.
"Stalin, who's he?"
Herbert Armstrong did restore all things then Tkach made the church lose it then Mr. Pack had to restore it again.
False Christian said, "...Mr. Pack had to restore it again."
The Packster restored nothing of Herbert Armstrong. He has his first wife rewrite all of WCG booklets and then Dave added his spin to them as. he reinterpreted HWA's understanding to fit what his mind was dreaming up.
What the Packster teaches now is 100% opposite of what HWA taught. Pack's madness is showing through every time he speaks. Other than Bob Thiel, the Church has never had a more insane leader than what we see in Pack.
If HWA were alive today he would publicly disfellowship and mark Pack for his blasphemy.
Bob Thiel has already lied and said he was Elijah and has even hinted that he could be one of the two witnesses. Who in their right mind would follow such an idiot when he publicly declares this as a fact?
I would not follow pervert Bob if he was the last person on the earth. He is an embarrassment to the church.
He ends each of his posts whining about how no one wants to believe him. He has lied so much how could we????? Such an idiot!
How could anyone follow a prophet who is such a whiny little crybaby who has never taken a definitive stand on anything he had to say. It's all what-ifs. possibly, and might be happening. The Prophets of old are laughing their asses off right now at his foolishness.
John the Baptist fulfilled Malachi 4:5. Read about it in Luke 1:13-17; Mat 17:10-13. Think higher. Such as 1000 years being one day, which in God's sight is but a watch in the night - Ps 90:4. Consider Hosea 6:2: Jesus will come in the "third day", which has to mean sometime in a 1000 year period. If one calculates the three days of Hosea's prophecy from the time the prophecy was given which was about 800 BC the third "day" would be about 1200 to 2200 CE (or AD). The point is there doesn't need to be any "Elijah" now to fulfill any prophecy.
He's done that for years.
Bob is like the boy who cried wolf all the time. If he ever was actually some kind of Elijah no one would believe him because he has lied so much over the years.
Obviously, HWA couldn't be the end time Elijah because Mr Pack posthumously promoted HWA to end time Moses so that he could declare himself to be end time Elijah.
Isn't that right, True Christian?
Brief History of the Elijah in the WCG and some of its Splinter Cults
All the doctrines in the Worldwide Church of God had come through the apostle Herbert W. Armstrong, so near the end of his life HWA started to teach that he was the one who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah to “restore all things.”
Herbert W. Armstrong died in January 1986 and was succeeded by the apostate Joseph W. Tkach, Sr., who was influenced by his son Joseph Tkach, Jr. and his buddies to destroy the Worldwide Church of God with the Great Apostasy of January 1995 in which they openly threw out of the WCG virtually everything that HWA had taught. The WCG then became a ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, Christmas-observing, Trinitarian cult that no longer worried about God using a united Europe to militarily punish the USA and Britain for their rapidly increasing sins. JWT, Sr. died exactly forty weeks after rejecting the Sabbath in a December 1994 sermon, and his son JWT, Jr. took over and changed the name of the WCG to Graceless Cult of International Iniquity, or something like that.
After Gerald R. Flurry got fired from the WCG by the apostate Tkaches for trying to pass off his plagiarized “little book” as a warning to them, Gerald started his own Philadelphia splinter cult that claimed to believe that HWA was the Elijah. Nevertheless, Gerald went on to totally delete, change, and mangle many major teachings of HWA's and also soon insisted that Gerald Flurry himself, rather than Jesus, was what Gerald called That Prophet that everyone was supposed to listen to. Gerald tried desperately to make people think that believing HWA was the Elijah was something to be associated with a deranged false prophet like himself.
After Roderick C. Meredith got forced out of the WCG by the apostate Tkaches, RCM started his own Global splinter cult, but did not want to believe that HWA was the Elijah who had “restored all things.” RCM seemed to think that he had been around for a while himself and could make up new teachings, such as new government ideas (until his Board with teeth in the Global splinter cult tried to bite him), a two-fold gospel message, the marriage supper being in heaven, and the falling away being in the world.
After the apostate Tkaches destroyed the WCG in 1995, the income fell so fast that ministers had to be let go. Many former WCG ministers formed the supposedly United splinter group, with an elected leader, and tried to grow by using many of HWA's teachings without actually mentioning HWA in its booklets, much less anything about HWA having been the Elijah who had “restored all things.” The former apostate Tkach enforcer Victor Kubic is currently the head honcho of what is left of the so-called United splinter group.
In 2010, the supposedly United splinter group splintered yet again and the COGWA splinter group was formed, which actually mentioned HWA's name in a couple of its booklets, but not yet anything about HWA having been the Elijah who had restored the things that they believe. Jim Franks is the current leader of COGWA.
Continued below...
...continued from above.
When David C. Pack got the boot from RCM's Global splinter cult and started his own Restored splinter cult, David criticized RCM of the Global splinter cult (and then later of the supposedly Living splinter cult of the now bankrupt Global splinter cult) for not believing that HWA was the Elijah, and accused RCM of secretly desiring to be the Elijah himself. RCM stuck with his new title of Presiding Evangelist that he had made up and died without ever taking the title of Elijah.
After David C. Pack got the boot from RCM's Global splinter cult while plotting to sideline RCM, David Pack started his own Restored splinter cult and initially taught that the understanding that HWA was the Elijah who had “restored all things” is a great wall of defence against doctrinal heresy. Still later, however, David Pack suddenly made up three sermons full of 130 of his infamous “proofs” that he himself was the Elijah and at the same time conveniently promoted HWA out of his way to the office of Moses, supposedly giving HWA back to his Restored cult members “two feet taller.” The office of Elijah that Dave Pack promoted himself to supposedly gave him the ability to make up doctrines. The fact that Dave Pack had already previously made up his “common” theft doctrine to get more money was one of Dave's 130 “proofs” that he was the Elijah. In Dave's “common” theft doctrine, the money did not get “distributed to everyone as they had need.” It all went to Dave and got used by Dave for his own purposes.
Robert J. Thiel had been in RCM's supposedly Living splinter cult of the now bankrupt Global splinter cult, but then began to think of himself “in terms that are not realistic,” as RCM put it, and split off to start his own Continuing splinter cult of RCM's supposedly Living splinter cult of the now bankrupt Global splinter cult. Bob claimed that his requested anointing for a health problem while still in RCM's supposedly Living cult of the now bankrupt Global splinter cult actually somehow ordained him to the office of a prophet. Hanging out too much in the past with RCM and hearing him reject HWA as the Elijah who had “restored all things” left the mentally challenged Bob free to think that the position of Elijah was still open and that he should apply for it and hire himself for it. The same demons that got false prophets like Gerald Flurry and David Pack to go into lengthy and frenzied fits of praising and promoting themselves to higher and higher positions in their own minds could very well help Bob to promote himself too, even though they did not help him to guess the future correctly like Bob had thought they would.
9.16 PM
The fact that the splinters minimize or completely ignore HWA says something about his character. A rights respecting person of good character would still be esteemed after his death. Herbs "restored all things" teaching is academic fluff with no bearing on everyday life. It diverted members minds away from the fact that they were constantly fed spiritual milk and lorded over by a power mad ministry.
That these groups are constantly splintering and shrinking proves that they do not have God's blessing.
True Christian wrote: "Herbert Armstrong did restore all things then Tkach made the church lose it then Mr. Pack had to restore it again."
This is Splinter-speak - and more of a sound bite than a well considered interpretation of events. HWA took apocalyptic Millerism and married it to recycled pieces of Old Testament dogma. This leads to the question, "Restoration of what?" Armstrongism never existed before HWA. It was a twentieth century innovation that left Herman Hoeh struggling to find its putative earlier instantiation so that the restoration idea could be plausible.
Of course all of this "innovation" can be blithely placed in the category of denominational distinctiveness. And our reaction could legitimately be "Who cares?" But Armstrongist practice and liturgy leaves being harmless distinctiveness and becomes lethal when it adds extraneous requirements (typically from the OT) to the NC conditions for salvation. That is Galatianism - something that Paul characterized as an abandonment of Christ. Is that the "restoration" we are hearing about?
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"And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth."
I know I'm speaking to the deaf and the blind in the splinter churches.
But I certainly wish you would all be blessed by our loving Father to be able to see and hear and know that there is NO truth in any of the splinter churches.
Grace and truth came through the Lord Jesus Christ and He is basically ignored.
I used to be where you are.
But then we came out of WCG and splinters, and while reading the epistles in the quietness of our own living room, we saw the glorious and FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.
The very scriptures that had been used to keep us in bondage actually supported living as new creations in Jesus Christ.
I appeal to you, as Jesus would appeal to you, because He loves you, to come out of these false churches.
To answer your question Mr. Diehl, Yes.
I sat in a congregational chair when Dave Pack said that he got up on a Wednesday morning and approached his wife and said; "Honey your not going to believe this, but I am Elijah".
And just in case our own thinking got rolling, Dave told us this: "some of you may wonder how I could be an apostle and prophet at the same time, well lets look at a couple of scriptures were it shows Jesus Christ was both an apostle and prophet".
Dave also told us this: "no one else could have been my mother's son" (he has a brother).
Bob Thiel's looking into the mirror statement; "Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth", is a perfect example of low level thinking from a very skewed perspective paralleling Packtonian reasoning.
Prophets, Elijah's, apostles and Christ's I have no need of - I am doing quite well with my Superman shirt circa 1970 - true vintage!
HWA claimed to be the Elijah to restore, and also an Apostle.
I heard it directly with my own ears. He was obviously wrong.
"Presuming Christ will return within the next couple of decades.."
How prophet like is that? When did the prophets of old use presuming this or presuming that? Rather, they were firm.
Btw, I believe Christ will return within 20 years. But that's another topic.
HWA was Elijah he was the Malachi he was nearly Christ but now HWA is gone has been passed on to Mr. Pack.
Gary and Denis are the two witnesses since they witness against God's dumb-ass ministers.
Fire comes out of Gary's mouth to scorch Bob's ass!
"HWA was nearly Christ"... thats one O havent heard yet.
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