Church hurt, women’s roles in ministry, and pastor worship are all topics that we discuss with Pastor Dave on this week’s episode. Dave grew up in a legalistic, authoritarian church that preached you had to earn your salvation by works. Today, he’s a non-denominational pastor at the Life Church in Texas that preaches salvation by grace. Learn why, unlike a lot of our guests who gave up on religion after leaving the Worldwide Church of God, Dave went the opposite route, attending seminary and then later becoming a pastor. Learn, too, how his time in a high-demand religious group informs the way he ministers today. You can reach out to Dave at DaveThePastor7@gmail.com.
Worldwide: The Unchosen Church is hosted, written and produced by Dr. Tricia Jenkins; sound design and editing is done by Thirteen Media; and music is licensed by SoundStripe.
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19 comments:
Great podcast! I like hearing these stories and especially those that continue to find God in meaningful ways after all the damage Armstrongism has caused.
WWCG never advocated the need to earn your salvation by works. It's absurd to lie like that.
Oh yes it did and still does! If you don’t keep sabbath or holy days you risk salvation. If you refuse to follow the leader yiu are disfellowshipped and salvation is denied. If you do not pray and study for hours a day, tithe regularly and attend feast days then your salvation is cut off.
Even though HWA and others like to claim we were not works based we were deep down to the core. Just one more lie if the church.
Tom Dale wrote “ WWCG never advocated the need to earn your salvation by works. It's absurd to lie like that.”
Let’s see how well that works when you tell your minister tithing as not longer required, or that attending the Feast or Atonement is no longer required. The list of required things the church demands is long and arduous. Break those rules for salvation and you will quickly find yourself kicked to the curb.
I remember in the late 60s in Pasadena HWA taught that members were saved by grace (given eternal life) but would be rewarded for their works. IE, your position in the Kingdom would be determined by your works.
Glenn, you heard right! HWA got that from Matthew 16:27, 1 Cor 3:8, and Rev 22:12.
Not everyone at Church is in the Church. He is an example of that. (these days it seems that very few at Church are truly in, and that includes a large part of the "ministry")
HWA always used tricky rhetoric to support his major premise that the New Covenant was simply the Old Covenant with a Messiah added in.
Glenn and bp8,
Wcg always conflated law keeping with works and deeds. But, wcg did not keep the law, they just chose the portions they were willing to observe. And still not correctly.
So, wcg members were basically told their reward for warming a seat on Saturday rather than sunday and not eating pork would get them a greater reward than the missionaries, martyrs, and those in the thick of helping and working with the destitute. In fact, wcg and the splinter cogs taught/teach that at Christ’s return those that have given their lives to help others but were not in the wcg have No Reward at all when He returns. They teach that at Christ’s return the only deeds/works that matter is being a member of their or very similar organization (others have a chance later after proving they too will choose to warm a Saturday seat and not to eat pork). I definitely don’t see that in the Bible, but that is cog belief.
"HWA always used tricky rhetoric to support his major premise that the New Covenant was simply the Old Covenant with a Messiah added in."
Have you got a reference for that? I've not heard that. I grew up in WCG in the 80s.
In the podcast, Pastor Dave said that WCG taught that the New Covenant would come at Christ's return. I don't ever remember hearing that either. Although, admittedly, I don't ever remember hearing an elaboration of the New Covenant at all. Perhaps I was too young, I'm not sure, since I was 19 when Tkach and co came along and started talking about the New Covenant a lot.
Tom Dale,
You say that, but the Bible specifically states that if you believe and state “Jesus is Lord” you will be saved.
The cogs don’t teach this. So, what then saves? For the cogs, there are some portions of the Law (they ignore other portions of the law) that assure salvation. If Jesus’s sacrifice does not cover without sabbath keeping and avoidance of pork, then yes those things are what finally save you. For the cogs, You can profess your faith in Christ, repent, and produce fruit of the holy spirit…but several selected statutory requirements are what will finally yield salvation.
I will also point out that law keeping is not equivalent to works. Jesus gave us new commands that better define what will naturally flow from following Him.
Jim:
I wasn't trying to whitewash HWA or dismiss his hypocrisy, I remember what was taught by many, I was there too! My point was that being rewarded "according to one's works" is indeed a scriptural concept.
That "new" covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah appears in Jer 31:31. If you study that word "new" it really means REPAIR/CHADASH/regarding the Moon. It clearly states in Heb 8:8-10 that the "new covenant" is about putting HIS Laws in our minds/hearts. Not one jot was to be done away with, but the synagogue of satan has used paganism from babel times to this day. Even their "circumcisions" are evil. Much has been added by the pen of the scribes to hurt HIS most precious. COME OUT OF BABYLON!
BP8, I’m not sure that rewarded means more than separating those who are Christ’s from those who are not. It just seems strange to think that if ol’ BP8 and ol’ jim live similar lives having accepted Jesus as savior and have fruits of repentance but ol’ BP8 visits one more widow or orphan than Ol’ jim then you get the greater reward. What if it’s a hundred more visits and you leap over ol’ Neo and ol’ NO2HWA? What does that look like? Do you get a little more privileges for eternity? Are you just a bit happier than we are for eternity?
I think it is probably a simple delineation and also a reminder that Following the Lord isn’t something esoteric but changes your life and creates good fruits and works. I think as Christians our focus should naturally be on how we can be generous of spirit and care for others, if we let other things clog our time and brains so that we don’t think how we can serve, then these scriptures you quoted are a good reminder and maybe a kick in the pants.
Anon 535,
The Ambassador correspondence course lesson 19 “the new covenant and the New Testament” on page 4 in the mid to lower left column explicitly says so. Hwa beats around the bush for over 3 pages trying to get you to say “yes” or “I suppose” and then about 5 more times to get you to say “yes” or “I suppose” with flawed logic, but once you’ve invested that many yeses the final one just kinda flows and you wind up believing the New Covenant has not begun yet.
They were careful how they packaged this fundamental belief and it’s not surprising you don’t recall hearing it. It’s also in Mystery of the ages, and the wonderful world tomorrow. I might look them up …
Anon 105
Your carnal analogy demonstrates perfectly the fallacy of the COG "top down" militaristic concept they hold for both the Kingdom and Church. The "family" dynamic, not the military, best pictures the mind of God, where everyone is equal in standing (status) even though they might differ in function.
1 Cor.3:8 says, "everyone shall receive his own reward according to his own labor", read all of ch.3:6-15.
Paul (who planted) and Apollos (who watered) had the same standing before God, yet had different functions and responsibilities.
Rev.5:10 shows both " kings and priests" (different functions) reigning TOGETHER on the earth.
In Matt. 25:14, the Kingdom is like one given 2 talents and receiving 2 more, and one given 5 and receiving 5 more, both given eternal life but with different responsibilities based upon how they lived their life with what God had given them.
A different function and reward is not something to frustrate over, but it is a fact that people have different talents, maturity, and levels of spirituality.
No, I don't desire living forever where someone is watching my every move and micromanaging everything I do because they are "over" me. Thankfully it will not be like that!
Would have been a good response except for your use of the word “carnal”.
Gold comment 5:48. Very truthful description of the state of the church. The tares have multiplied and bully from the top down. Hypocrites who harp on about the past church life of decades ago yet stop any up-to-date discussion in 2022.
739
I didn't mean to imply that Anon 105 himself was carnal, but the analogy he used was a good illustration of how the carnal mind works (see 1 Cor. 3:3).
"I am of Paul" . . ."I did more than NEO and NO2HWA" . . ."I fast twice a week "!
The church liked to beat people over the head calling them " carnal" while being carnal themselves in everything they do!
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