Mr. Generalities...
Apostle Pack Dazzles All Others with RCG Growth
but in theology and Biblical understanding perhaps The Emperor With No Clothes?
I can only speak for myself of course but there would be several burning realities to me that Dave seems to miss and be oblivious to.
1. Does the Apostle Pack really understand the message of the New Testament and my answer would be no.
Part B. Does the Apostle Dave understand the history, mythology and politic of the Old Testament and again I would say hardly.
Part B. Does the Apostle Dave understand the history, mythology and politic of the Old Testament and again I would say hardly.
2. Does the Apostle Pack understand the differences in belief between the Jewish Church under Peter, James and John towards which he tends, and the revolution the self appointed Apostle Paul started to deconstruct that point of view. My answer is no.
3. Does the Apostle Pack understand how foolish it was and still is of him to place himself in the context of the Old Testament as the Joshuah of Zerubbabel fame in Haggai? My answer is no. This is foolish and delusional fairytale destroys his message and twists the NT intent
4. Does the Apostle Dave understand the politic of the New Testament? My answer is no therefore he will never get the messages they contain right
5. Does the Apostle Pack understand that no one on this earth really ordained him an Apostle or even an Evangelist except himself and this makes him an unbroken chain of one . While the Apostle Paul did the same thing in the NT, it is the very reason Paul was rejected in the Book of Revelation by the Ephesian Jewish Christian Church, which he claims to understand more than any others. (He doesn't)
6. Does the Apostle Dave have any clue the plan of God is not a mere 6000 years of "human history"? No he does not. He's a mere Bible reader and that badly. Has he ever read a theological journal or studied evolutionary science? Herbert Armstrong never did and Ted gave away millions of Theories for the Birds and Whales of Tales only to be found dead wrong in every conclusion. Numbers mean nothing if the information is bogus
7. Does the Apostle Dave understand the difference between mythologies, analogies, allegories and midrashic writing? I don't think so. Therefore he will literalize things which were never mean what meanings he gives them and thus be inaccurate in his conclusions.
8. Does the Apostle Dave and his sheep understand that if he was still selling health foods and vitamins, his year end report would be equally as general and awesome as he compared himself to Whole Foods or Trader Joes?
9. Doe the Apostle Dave realize that there are Mega Churches all around him that can boast much more in membership locally than he does worldwide? They also have ten figure incomes and are actually liked by the communities they are willing to serve in. Nope! Now if Dave can draw tens of thousands to his local Sabbath Services, that might be different. But spreading the numbers around the planet to people who probably don't know the man or his ways with those who actually join is a fake church and following. Like Pasadena, the closer you get to the source, the higher the drama and trauma index and the higher the drop out rate. Does he really not understand statistics mean absolutely NOTHING spiritually? Perhaps, as the original "inventor" of the Plain Truth Distribution Program (not really) he could set his own literature out in public starting in Wadsworth. I bet I know how that would go.
10. Does the Apostle Dave realize he is not trained well enough in Biblical studies to tell everyone the mind of his God? Sad to say...no.
The Apostle Dave is , as so many fundamentalist and COG ministers, a mere Bible reader and never had a serious doubt in their life about the story they have woven in their heads about the mind of God as spoken through themselves. It will catch up with them in time.
11: Does the Apostle Dave understand the conflict and turmoil he has caused over the years in his trail of tears? Nope
12: Does the Apostle Dave understand that extorting money through threats and promoting false Biblical agendas is wrong? Does he understand "the Prophecy" is not "on" at all and if he picks it up in the Spring to motivate the brethren it will blow up twice? Does he believe in "Once burned, twice burned?"
"Jesus" words to the Ephesian Church in Revelation 2 might do here.
Dave to the World: I am an Apostle
Jesus to the Ephesians/Wadsworthians/Buffalonians/ Rochestarians etc: "You have tried those who say they are Apostles and are have found them wanting and false..."
Ephesians to Dave Pack: "No you aren't"
Jesus to Ephesians: "Well done......"
10. Does the Apostle Dave realize he is not trained well enough in Biblical studies to tell everyone the mind of his God? Sad to say...no.
The Apostle Dave is , as so many fundamentalist and COG ministers, a mere Bible reader and never had a serious doubt in their life about the story they have woven in their heads about the mind of God as spoken through themselves. It will catch up with them in time.
11: Does the Apostle Dave understand the conflict and turmoil he has caused over the years in his trail of tears? Nope
12: Does the Apostle Dave understand that extorting money through threats and promoting false Biblical agendas is wrong? Does he understand "the Prophecy" is not "on" at all and if he picks it up in the Spring to motivate the brethren it will blow up twice? Does he believe in "Once burned, twice burned?"
"Jesus" words to the Ephesian Church in Revelation 2 might do here.
2
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lamp stands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
Dave to the World: I am an Apostle
Jesus to the Ephesians/Wadsworthians/Buffalonians/ Rochestarians etc: "You have tried those who say they are Apostles and are have found them wanting and false..."
Ephesians to Dave Pack: "No you aren't"
Jesus to Ephesians: "Well done......"
18 comments:
I stopped reading the Emperor's Open Letter at: "This will be the longest..."
I would like to know exact ministerial salaries and that of Dave Pack and family members. I'd like to know specific yearly income and how it is spent.
One would think those that actually give the money not earned would also wish to know this
Dennis makes just as many unwarranted jumps and leaps as Pack, and therefore comes to horribly inaccurate conclusions of his own. However, Pack is actively ruining people's lives and defrauding them using the very things that Dennis has correctly pointed out, while Dennis is simply receiving accolades from non-believers who are as incapable of being shepherded as cats.
Dennis, however, has proven that he can get certain people rethinking their Armstrong paradigms, so is somewhat useful for people who are at certain stages. I vote we keep him around for a while longer.
Dave is lying about all that "growth" he'd like to "dazzle" you with. But that doesn't mean there isn't some other growth in RCG that Dave forgot to mention in areas such as:
∙Bad fruit
∙Dave's ego and the size of the shrine he's building to it
∙The percentage of folk's income Dave demands they fork over
∙The average age of people who attend RCG
∙Dave's salary
∙Dave's collection of Steuben crystal
∙Dave's list of failed prophecies
"If you hold those riches, I'm telling you, you trust in them." (Translation: "Won't you let ME trust in YOUR riches instead?")
Hi Dennis, you said
>>One would think those that actually give the money not earned would also wish to know this<<
very good point, As one of "those" I have tried to get this type of info for years without success. Perhaps you could help here, as a former minister what range of salery were you on ie. 30 to 40 thou +/-no need to be specific. Also did you save your 2nd tithe or were you given an FOT bonus. I am an avid reader of your many posts and have learnt much from them, so a belated thanks. toby
Anonymous said...
Dennis makes just as many unwarranted jumps and leaps as Pack, and therefore comes to horribly inaccurate conclusions of his own."
I started by saying these views were of course my views. What are our views on such things?
In what ways are you "somewhat useful"? Should we keep letting you lurk around for awhile longer?
lol
Dennis, I hope you realize this remark is "tongue-in-cheek"
I notice Dave will have an opening in Columbia, SC this year. Looking for a job????
Non of the COG's understand the message of the NT. They view Jesus as a secondary player who came for the sole purpose of dying so that the Law could still be kept (and broken daily) without the penalty of the Lake of Fire.
Dennis has been around for a while here. There is no question of him "staying" (meant in jest, but still an arrogant statement). I would like to see his "unwarranted jumps" and some data to back up why they are wrong.
Paul R.
"Growth is the greatest indicator of fruit." Really, Pack? You sound just like the devil tempting the Son! Zep 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Rom 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23
Meekness, temperance:
Eph 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Gal 5:26
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Mar 13:6
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Yes, Pack including you! There is GROWTH in "many"!)
Item # 2, Paul was a "self-appointed apostle?" Really? Does Christianity contradict Judaism or does it "complete" it?
Was the Jewish apostles issues with Gentiles a temporary issue or permanent? Didn't Paul claim to be a Pharisee, a Jew all of his life (Acts 23:6)? Wasn't he a Messianic Jew, or a completed Jew? A Jew who accepted Jesus as the Messiah while others rejected him.
Hi Dennis, you said
>>One would think those that actually give the money not earned would also wish to know this<<
very good point, As one of "those" Toby asked: "I have tried to get this type of info for years without success. Perhaps you could help here, as a former minister what range of salery were you on ie. 30 to 40 thou +/-no need to be specific. Also did you save your 2nd tithe or were you given an FOT bonus. I am an avid reader of your many posts and have learnt much from them, so a belated thanks. "
toby
I never made over 32,000 as a church pastor and at times I had three churches at a time. The church "saved" our second tithe out of our pay and then sent it to us some in the spring and most in the fall. Contrary to belief, I pad about 75-100 a month for my fleet car and personal gas etc. When I started in 1972 I was paid $328.oo every two weeks . I paid over 4000 a year in tithe usually and did not have to pay a third tithe. I personally did give quite a bit of my second tithe to needy members who may have been new to the feast. The church always wanted the "excess' returned so I gave it away and had none to return.
I hear that those like a Joe Jr make in the hundreds of thousands and I assume Dave does as well which frankly blows my brain. It was very true that "rank" in the ministry was really just a pay raise. While told "the sky is the limit for you Dennis" whatever the hell that meant, I was at first an elder, then Preaching elder the first two years out of college then never was a "Pastor Rank" though I pastored 14 congregations in 5 states over 26 years.
I asked to go to summer camp once to be a counselor as I had extensive swimming, lifesaving, canoeing and camp counseling experience, but those jobs went to non swimmers and non- camp experienced "ranked" and coddled cronies. I was out of the loop.
Anon said:
"Paul was a self apointed apostle? Really?"
Yes really,
"1. His apostleship was unrecognized by others.
Of the 22 times in the New Testament where Paul is referred to as an apostle, only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself. These two instances came from but Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the record, Luke would have been very familiar with Paul calling himself an apostle and was no doubt in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record as recognizing his apostleship!
2. His focus was uniquely self-ward.
No other epistle writer in the New Testament wrote like Paul. This would be true in several ways, but one facet is of particular interest when we are considering how Paul views himself. It is his usage of personal pronouns that is second to none. In fact, when it comes to how often he uses personal pronouns like, "I", "me", "my", or "mine", his overall average in the epistles that are generally unquestioned as his is almost three times that of his next closest rival in the practice. Many if not most scholars today believe for a number of reasons that Paul did not write the book of Hebrews. One obvious fact is that in the other epistles credited to him Paul doesn't hesitate to identify himself along with his supposed credentials. The author of Hebrews is strangely silent on these matters. To date, the best guess as to who the author of Hebrews is would be Apollos, and it's only a guess. But Paul certainly couldn't be in the running as the author of Hebrews when one also considers the statistics on the personal pronoun usage. The author of Hebrews uses approximately 1.3 personal pronouns per thousand words of text. Paul's average comes in at about 18.2 per thousand! That is a 1300% increase.
To help put this in perspective, in the first half of the first chapter of Romans, (16 verses worth), Paul uses twice as many personal pronouns than the author of Hebrews uses in his entire book. It's easy to see that Paul is at least as concerned about communicating what believes to be the truth about himself, along with what he considers to be the truth about God."
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/false_apostle.htm
Anonymous said...
"Growth is the greatest indicator of fruit." Really, Pack? You sound just like the devil tempting the Son! Zep 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Rom 9:27
Problem solved...No HWA offshoot qualifies!
Anonymous said...
"Growth is the greatest indicator of fruit." Really, Pack? You sound just like the devil tempting the Son! Zep 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Rom 9:27
Problem solved...No HWA offshoot qualifies!
Dennis, Thanks for your kind response. That's the first time any minister has ever responded to that question. to put it in perspective I worked in ambassador press in '72 my salery was around $75 a week so you were not doing too bad :-) Sad that it has taken me so long to wise up but maybe better late than never. toby
Instead of focussing on St. Paul's usage of personal pronouns, why not focus on the powerful lessons and spiritual principles which he gave us? It is how he used those pronouns which counts! Jesus used "the son of man", and John used "the disciple whom Jesus loved."
Paul had a different personality and style.
Had they all written the same, people in the present would accuse them of robotics, or say the same person had written everything under different names.
Jeez, Toby! $72 per week? Were you a student worker, or on your conscientious objector work program? My starting wage at AC Press in Pasadena back in 1970 was $3.80 per hour. It was just after John Egbert (plant superintendent) had gotten the wages in line with the average for similar jobs in the printing industry at large, and was one of the few departments on campus where you could actually earn a livable income. Because of the massive circulation of the magazines, there was abundant opportunity for overtime, and I took advantage of every such opportunity. Even with all the tithes, we lived fairly well. This was at a time when talented AC graduates who did not go unto the ministry were experiencing difficulty finding work.
When I had been an AC student, my goal was to get enough education to have a successful secular career (the ministers didn't like that about me), and my years at AC Press ended up launching that for me.
From the standpoint of career and financial security, there was a bit of a false start and temporary derailment in that I had married someone whom I felt that I'd be able to tolerate for a couple of years until "the end", basically because that was the only way I felt I'd be able to experience physical, human marriage. And then, of course, "the end" proved to be a much worse lie than Santa Clause. There may be a lesson in that for our splinter group lurker-friends who even now are waiting for the Germans, so beware of whom you are trusting for your "truths". You, not they, end up paying the penalty, and if there are any children involved, the effect gets transmitted into the next generation. Caution: Bad fruit!
BB
You guys here are so funny! A guy tells you all about his calling, his IQ, grade point average, promotability, self-effacing exercise of authority, all his former associates turning their backs on him, a couple of supernatural experiences, all the while presenting some really bizarre unorthodox beliefs, and you let him get away with dinging Paul for allegedly doing the same exact things! Go figure. Must be the water.
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