NOTE: As more and more COG members read this blog it has become the "go-to" place for news and information. Occasionally people contact me with articles. These certainly do not always end up being something I agree with, but will occasionally post them for an added discussion, which is something that most COG members never get the opportunity to do. If these kinds of topics bore you, them pass it by till the next posting.
Lev 16:33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Lev 16:33a and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the Tent of Meeting and the altar…
Eze 45:20b so you are to make atonement for the temple. (NIV).
The atonement of the Tabernacle/Temple and the people is the focus of the ritual whether Satan is the god of this world or when Jesus Christ becomes the God of this world.
Under the present god of this world there is one day of atonement on the tenth day of the seventh month. Under the hopefully soon coming return of Jesus Christ, at least ten years away(?), there will be two days of atonement in preparation for Passover, on the first and seventh days of the first month (Eze 45:18-20). The function of the Passover will also change from an apotropaic one to a purgative one with a public sacrifice of a bull as a sin/purification offering.
Azazel maybe Satan as suggested by Holy Day typology. The Day of Alarm-blasts appears to picture the return of Jesus Christ to complete the last half-year of his prophetic week. The First Day of the Feast of Tabernacles appears to picture the Millennium.
Eze 43:7a And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever...
(The picture above captures the intent of Eze 43:7a).
Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
At the start of the Kingdom Age, after the completion of the second half week, Christ takes up His earthly residence in the Millennial Temple, cp. the start of the Church Age in Acts 2:1-3, while still in heaven (cp. 1 Kgs 8:11-13 & 8:30). Residence in the Millennial Temple will be the same as in the Mosaic Tabernacle.
Atonement occurs before the First of Sukkot, which may therefore picture Satan and Demons being cast out of the ‘heavenlies’ and being replaced by Jesus Christ and the Saints (cp. Eph 6:12; Eph 2:6, a prolepsis; and Rev 3:21).
In Leviticus 26:11-12 there is the three-part Covenant formula - God will be God of his people; Israel will be His people; and God will dwell among them.
Eze 8:6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.
The Day of Atonement in the OC was, and the Days of Atonement in the NC will be, required to maintain Jesus Christ’s presence (Shekinah), in the Most Holy Place. Sin generates impurities that attaches to various sanctum, depending on the grade of sin; serious ritual impurity only attaches to the outer altar. Too much accumulation of sin-generated pollution in the Temple drives Christ away.
Therefore, the Millennial Temple will have to be annually atoned for to maintain the NC.
What follows looks briefly at Azazel or azazel and the role of disposal of sin in the atonement ritual provided by the sin/purification offering during the year and in the annual “sin offering of atonements” (Num 29:11) on the Day of Atonement, and its implication for the Millennium.
To achieve the goal of cleansing of the tabernacle and people under the OC, two goats were essential.
Lev 16:8a And shall cast Aaron for two the goats lots
Lev 16:8ba lot one for Yahweh (layahweh)
Lev 16:8bb and lot one for ‘azazel (la‘azazel)
(The lamed, transliterated “l”, is one of three prepositions, that is prefixed to nouns; (i.e., inseparable).
“Archaeologists have found many objects, especially seals, with the inscribed names of their owners preceded by the lamed of ownership (Levine, Leviticus, 102)” (Roy Gane, Cult and Character, p.249).
Ex 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance [lehaq] to thee and to thy sons [lebaneka] for ever.
“Unless, therefore, ‘azazel be a proper name (which has to be proved, not assumed) the preposition need not and ought not to be translated by "for" but by "to be." The word le is used with great latitude, and often in a different sense in the same sentence; e.g.; Exo 12:24...” (H.D.M. Spence & Joseph S. Exell Leviticus, Pulpit Commentary).
Lev 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
“The goats, though used in different ways, constituted only one offering. They were both presented before the Lord, and the disposal of them determined by lot...” (Robert Jamieson, Levitcus, JFB).
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall east lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and one lot for a remover of sins (H.D.M. Spence & Joseph S. Exell).
“However, one chooses to translate ‘azazel the emphasis must remain upon what the goat was meant to accomplish. The common strand in each interpretation is that the goat carried away the sins of the people into the remote wilderness, never to return and never to be seen again...
“It is probably best not to make too sharp a distinction between the two goats, since the two together are described as "a sin offering" in the singular in verse Lev 16:5. It seems best to hold that the two goats represented a different aspect of the same sacrifice...
“Possibly, David was reflecting upon the ritual of the scapegoat when he wrote the stanza of the song:
“As far as the east is from the west, So far has he removed our transgressions from us - Psa 103:12” (Gary W. Demarest, Leviticus, The Preachers’ Commentary).
Disposal Parallels
(hatta’t/hattat is the transliteration of the Hebrew word translated “sin offering” in the KJV. Purification offering is a better translation but no one word captures its full meaning in English; sin offerings (KJV) are also required to cleanse from serious ritual impurity. For the sin/purification offering I transliterate the silent aleph).
Outer altar sin offering
Lev 10:17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear [nasa] the iniquity [awon] of the congregation, to make atonement [kapper] for them [’alehem] before the LORD?
Outer-Sanctum sin offering
Lev 4:20 ... and the priest shall make an atonement [kipper] for them [’alehem], and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev 4:21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him ... it is a sin offering [hatta’t] for the congregation.
Sin offering of atonements
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear [nasa] upon him all their iniquities [awon] unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
“... if in the special hattat ritual the Azazel goat was necessary to remove the sins of the Israelites, [then] in the ordinary hattatritual ... a certain agent had to remove the sin of the offerer, rather than the sin is removed just through confession or remorse” (Gung Yul Kim, The hattat ritual and the Day of Atonement in the Book of Leviticus, pp.313-14).
“As for the phrase “bear iniquity” in the hattat context, in one place it is a priestly action performed by priest(s) as an agent of God to remove the iniquity of the Israelites (Lev 10:17) and in [an]other place it is an activity done by the Azazel goat (Lev 16:22)” (Gung Yul Kim, The hattat ritual and the Day of Atonement in the Book of Leviticus, p.16).
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
“... in the ordinary hattat ritual, the same thing occurred in a different manner; the offerer’s sin is transferred to the victim through his confession and hand imposition; his sin is conveyed to the victim’s flesh and the impurity of the sancta is absorbed into the flesh through the blood, par pro toto for the victim; and the flesh is eaten by the priests or burned outside the camp to remove the sin and the impurity” (Gung Yul Kim, The hattat ritual and the Day of Atonement in the Book of Leviticus, p.314).
Lev 14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds...
Lev 14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
Lev 14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird...
Lev 14:53a But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields,
Lev 14:53b and make an atonement [kipper] for the house: and it shall be clean [taher].
Lev 14:20b and the priest shall make an atonement [kipper] for him, and he shall be clean [taher].
Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement [kapper] for you, to cleanse [taher] you, that ye may be clean [tehar] from all your sins before the LORD.
“If the same syntax of the two verses [14:20, 53] is acknowledged as having the same meaning, it is presumed that the same mechanism of the hattat offering is working even in the ritual for the leprous house... The legislator of this rule would have considered this ritual as having a function corresponding to the hattat ritual, although the bird is not called a hattat and [not] slaughtered at the sanctuary” (Gung Yul Kim, The hattat, p.305).
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement [kapper] for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
"... inadvertent sin and major impurity both require sacrifice for atonement. Since both inadvertent sin and major impurity endanger (requiring ransom) and pollute (requiring purgation), sacrificial atonement must both ransom and cleanse. The verb used to describe this dual event is the verb kipper and the power of the kipper-rite to accomplish both is due to the lifeblood of the animal" (Jay Sklar, Sin Impurity, Sacrifice, Atonement - The Priestly Conceptions, p.187).
“... ransom and cleansing” are “required; one bird is sacrificed (ransom) and its blood is sprinkled (cleansing); the other bird takes away the removed impurity (disposal of impurity); thus kipper is made (ransom + purgation)” (Gung Yul Kim, The hattat ritual and the Day of Atonement in the Book of Leviticus, p.305).
Lev 20:3b he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name
In the ordinary hatta’t the sin of the offerer is transferred to the animal flesh and has to be eliminated either by eating or burning. When blood is applied to the sancta, the pollution of the sancta is also transferred to the flesh of the animal, through ritual dynamics, cp. Lev 20:3, and/or pars pro toto.
“… hand imposition in the [ordinary] hattat ritual signifies ‘identification = sin-transference” (Gung Yul Kim, The hattat ritual and the Day of Atonement in the Book of Leviticus, p.296).
It would appear, it is the animal that has the hand/hands laid on it, who absorbs the sin/sins and that animal is ‘dealt’ with to eliminate the sin/sins.
On the Day of Atonement while the blood of the bull and goat purification offerings is applied to the sancta the sins are not transferred to the flesh of the slaughtered offerings along with the impurity generated by sins, even though the flesh is burned without the camp; the high-priest transfers the sins to the live goat who is then sent into the wilderness.
In regard to sin and the impurity generated by sin compare the analogy of adultery. There is the act of adultery by one spouse, and when the sin is revealed, there is the hurt and betrayal of the other spouse. There is a two-fold need - forgiveness and healing to restore the relationship.
So when a person sins there is a transgression of the law, and the impurity, generated by that transgression, defiles the sanctuary and therefore profanes God’s holy name, i.e., God. Therefore, forgiveness and elimination/healing are also required to make full atonement - ransom and purgation - to restore the sinner to a right standing before God.
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness [tum’ot] of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
Lev 16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it [the outer altar] with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness [tum’ot] of the children of Israel.
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities [‘awonot] of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins...
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities [‘awonot] unto a land not inhabited...
Inequities, the operative word in 16:21,22 are transgressions; and uncleanness, the operative word in 16:16, 19 is the consequence of the transgressions.
Sin and impurity, in the ordinary hatta’t, are absorbed by one animal. But in the special hatta’t there are two, actually three, animals involved. The iniquities of the children (lit., “sons”) of Israel are transferred to the live goat 16:21-22, not the carcasses of the sacrificed bull and goat.
Presumably, when the blood is applied to the sancta the uncleanness is absorbed into the sin offering of atonements - the priest’s bull and the congregation’s goat - and eliminated through burning of the flesh outside the camp (Lev 16:17).
Lev 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin
Lev 4:28b then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering...
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins...
In the ordinary hatta’t the man’s sin that he has committed is transferred to the goat. How then did the sins of the sons of Israel come to be “on” Aaron so that he can transfer them to the live goat?
Gung Yul Kim does not mention it, but Roy Gane argues in one place:
“Confession plus double hand-leaning appears to be the means by which the sins of the entire nation are transformed from abstraction, as if out of the air, into a concentrated, quasi-spatially containable form, gathered to the high priest, and channeled through his hands to the goat” (Roy Gane, Cult and Character, pp.245-46).
Lev 10:17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear [nasa] the iniquity [‘avon] of the congregation, to make atonement [kapper] for them [’alehem] before [lipne] the LORD?
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities [awonot] of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat,
And in another place: “In eaten purification offerings (excluding a hatta’t sacrifice officiated by a priest at least partly for himself), officiating priests who eat the flesh bear (nasa) the culpability [‘awon] (10:17) in some sense, although they are immune to its effects. They do this as the cultic representatives of YHWH, who bears evils when he extends pardon (“forgiving iniquity [‘awon], transgressions and sins”; Exod 34:7; cf. Num 14:18). On the Day of Atonement all ‘awonot, apparently comprising or at least including the culpabilities born by the priests for the people, are transferred to Azazel’s goat through the high priest’s confession and banished to Azazel in the wilderness (Lev 16:21-22; cf. v.10). The ‘awonot do not need to be purged from the sanctuary because they have affected the priests instead.
“The role of YHWH in bearing moral evils is represented in the cultic system by his sanctuary and priests together: When sinners receive kipper during the year, the sanctuary bears their tum’ot (Lev 16:16) and the priests bear the ‘awonot that have resulted from the tum’ot (Lev 10:17). The priests can bear the ‘awonot because these are consequentially culpabilities and, as such, they can be transferred from one person to another (cf. 2 Sam 14:9;...). The transferability reflects the legal fact that one person can be condemned to punishment for a wrong that another person has committed” (Cult and Character, pp.299-300).
One difficulty in Roy Gane’s argument is that the priests do not bear, at least based on Lev 10:17, all the ‘awonot in outer altar purification offerings: “(excluding a hatta’t sacrifice officiated by a priest at least partly for himself)” and by implication inner sanctum purification offerings.
This interpretation of “bear iniquity” is different to Gung Yul Kim’s, in that the latter sees the priest’s role in “bearing iniquity” by eating the flesh of the purification offering which eliminates/disposes of the iniquity, the parallel to burning in the priest’s hatta’t.
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple...
As an aside, typology therefore suggest that just as the priests have a role in the elimination of sin along with the high priest, the future priests of the Melchisdec priesthood in heaven assist the heavenly high priest in His ministry in the sanctuary.
Ex 28:29 And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
Ex 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
Somewhat similar to Roy Gane’s second quote, perhaps Aaron, as the cultic representative of God, bears/absorbs those sins that are not atoned for during the year by the ordinary hatta’t when they are committed; such as Molech worship defiles the Most Holy Place when it is committed, which is also borne by the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement.
Then on the day of Atonement the high-priest transfers the sins to the goat through hands leaning, (no blood being is applied to him, just as no blood is applied to a sinner in the atonement ritual for his sin), and the sanctuary is cleansed of the effects of sin through the blood rites, that both have borne during the year. (Forgiveness, or a related word, is not used in Lev 16).
Lev 16:18b and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat
Lev 16:15b He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it.
Lev 16:16b put blood on four horns of incense altar and sprinkle blood before the veil 7 times...
Lev 16:18c and put it upon the horns of the [outer] altar round about.
Lev 16:20 ... making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar...
Eze 45:19a The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering
Eze 45:19b and put it on the doorposts of the temple
Eze 45:19c on the four corners of the upper ledge of the altar
Eze 45:19d and on the gateposts of the inner court
Eze 45:20b ... so you are to make atonement for the temple
Atonement will be made for the Temple in the Millennium to maintain Christ’s presence in the Most Holy Place, one of the three pillars of the covenant formula - no Christ, no covenant.
In the above reconstruction, to draw the parallels between OC and NC atonement, changes of where blood is applied to kipper, maybe observed. Along with changes in the objects to receive blood there may another method for disposal of sin during the annual atonement cleansing of the Temple. If sin may be eliminated by eating or burning during the year, another way for annual elimination is more than likely. (It is surprising that the blood is not put on the horns of the outer altar in the annual NC atonement ritual seeing that this is the place in the OC. Blood is placed on the horns of the NC altar in its consecration (Eze 43:20)).
Eze 41:12 Now the building that was before the separate place at the end toward the west was seventy cubits broad; and the wall of the building was five cubits thick round about, and the length thereof ninety cubits.
Perhaps the building with the largest ground floor area in the Temple Complex, situated behind the Temple proper, will play a part in the disposal of sin.
Submitted by John
Submitted by John
24 comments:
The most important part of atonement was our part... Fasting. No goats anymore so how much did it ever matter to God? God wanted humility not sacrifice.
How did such a long article on atonement not mention humility once?
Maybe I missed it?
Me thinks ye complicate things!
This complicated God evidently has too much time on his eternal hands
Lots of complicated steps here. Atonement was absolutely worthless until there was resurrection. That is where the focus is and should be. Resurrection is new life, literally or figuratively.
Another brainiac follower of Herbert Armstrong's dooms day cult. The writer bought into Herbert's bullshit hook, line and sinker.
Ralph Levy did an entire book on this subject. Long, complicated and boring as hell. As the previous poster said, it is the resurrection that made it all worthwhile. That should be our focus, not dwelling on the law and purity reasons. That is not New Covenant based.
There was a long ago quote by a mystic that said growth comes from the subtraction of the soul.
What meaning does the common man take away from the precise application of rituals performed solely by a priesthood at one specific location? Would priestly ritual impurity truly separate Christ from a populace that may be for the most part, sinless?
The greater populace who die for a day when they afflict their souls and grow without physical nourishment gain exactly what in this whole scenerio?
Will the extreme focus of the people only be on the temple, the priests, bulls goats and blood to keep God in their presence?
Many questions could be asked on and on concerning this writing which by the way has an eerie parallel to what Dave Pack now teaches.
more blabbering nonsense from the apostle John.
I'm sure David Pack would be impressed though.
Time will tell
14 billion years - have to do something to pass the time!
Most fundamentalists believe the universe is 6,000 years old.
Most of everyone else believes it is as old as science says - about 14 billion years plus minus.
If you believe in the gap theory - what happened between universe creation 14 billion years ago and now?
I am leaning towards the simulation theory which makes more sense.
Interestingly, it is an outside creation theory - just not the same as Genesis.
No one has a good answer on why anything exists. And yet we do.
John,
I agree with a few of your points, as well as some comments here. Let me share my understanding …
1. Atonement is for actions. Cleansing is for the person. You are right in connecting the ritual of leprosy cleansing to the Azazel part. As this ritual is mentioned only 2 chapters before the Yom Kippur ritual. The stain of sin is similar to the stain of leprosy. Even David still felt the stain of his sin after he already repented and was forgiven (Ps 51:2).
2. As Lev 16:16 states, the goat slain is to make atonement for the Holy Place which was defiled by people who, in the past year, came in unknowingly in a state of ritual impurity or in a state of sin. It was a targeted repentance for those who had specifically defiled the Sanctuary while they were in a state of contamination. Since you quoted Eze 45:20b, please note the first half you omitted, particularly ‘… sinned unintentionally or in ignorance’. There is no sacrifice for intentional sin (Num 15:27-31). The Korban Chatat you mentioned is for unintentional sin (Lev 4). There are only 5 or 6 ‘minor’ sins covered by Korban Asham (Lev 6).
3. Fasting involves repentance (Ps 35:13; Isa 58:6-14).
4. Repentance and obedience to God are far superior to a blood sacrifice for sin (Micah 6:6-8; Ps 51:15-17; 1 Sam 15:22; Hos 14:1-2). Aside from David who was forgiven after repentance without offering sacrifice (2 Sam 12:13), Manasseh was restored after repentance (2 Chr 33:10-13). Only after he was restored that he offered sacrifices - peace and thanksgiving, instead of sin or trespass (2 Chr 33:15-16).
5. Again, you quoted Lev 17:11 without giving the context. Chapter and verse breaks are man-made. The verse starts with ‘For’ connecting the previous verse’ thought. What is being discussed is the prohibition of eating blood. (v10 and v12). The only use is on the altar but it doesn’t say that blood atones for all sins, nor it implies that blood is the only method to atone for sin. Lev 5:11-13 allows flour to be used in lieu of animal for trespass offering.
6. Solomon warns future Jewish exiles that confession and repentance alone will atone for all their sins (1 Ki 8:46-50; read also Hos 3:4-5).
It is evident your heart is set in seeking the truth and having understanding. May God bless you on your search and study.
TLA wrote,
I am leaning towards the simulation theory which makes more sense.
How does it make more sense? All it does is move the problem one level up. How do you explain the civilization that is running our simulation? If you can explain that "real" universe without a simulation, you can use that explanation for our universe!
Thanks 1:18 for your positive reply.
I did like especially the connection of the ritual in Lev 14, in essence, providing background to Lev 16.
Some will find this post boring will some may find it interesting; some will dislike and some will like it; but that’s life.
I was perhaps not that surprised that one who often quotes Scripture in his posts, which suggest that he believes in Biblical principles, can be so uncivil in response to something he disagrees with time will tell.
In points 1 and 2 there are at least three things that I have a different view on; but that is understandable, especially considering ANE literature; which I don’t want to pursue.
In regard to Lev 17:11 I was using it in the sense of the rule not the exception (cp. Heb 9:22b); even incense provides atonement (Nu 16:46) for example.
Miriam and Aaron provide another example of forgiveness without sacrifice.
Reducing even a complex component - disposal of sin - of an evil more complex larger subject will necessary have shortfalls and can only address things in a limited way, so that things left out and intricacies not addressed, as you can appreciate, doesn’t mean that they are not unknown and not important.
chag sameach, if it applies.
"I was perhaps not that surprised that one who often quotes Scripture in his posts, which suggest that he believes in Biblical principles, can be so uncivil in response to something he disagrees with time will tell."
Wow, the Apostle John has slithered out from under his anonymous rock to adopt a very trite "YNHWA" handle! I knew he would come to bask in his sanctimonious adulation for his almost scripture-esque (in his mind) blabberings.
Anyone who writes of the "shekinah" presence of the Messiah is coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs. That is pure kabbalah and witchcraft, otherwise called blasphemy. It gives insight into the author's limited spiritual understanding of anything biblical.
But, I guess we will have to wait and see, as time will tell.
Good observation 2:38!
So does this mean that "Yes and No to HWA" is the same as the "John" whose signature sign off seems to be "Time will tell...?" And is this "John" the same "John" that comments on the Shining Light Blog?
For the record 9:05, I am not the John with the signature sign off of “time will tell”.
The latter often refers to the “Mickey Mouse Millennium” which I do not.
While I could use my Christian name I prefer “Yes and No to HWA” (YNHWA) as that is a reflection of the outcome of my experiences in the WCG.
This experience, due to my peculiar circumstances, was an overall positive one, even though I now have many different doctrinal views to what was once accepted.
For example, while I am for keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days, I am also for Heaven being the Reward of the Saints and for a Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection.
I have posted on the SL under the name John, but I was not the only one. I haven’t visited JM’s site for quite some time.
If this "John" is the same "John" who posts on the Shining Light Blog I'd like to post the following as a response to his comment dated 30/09/2019 at 4:02 if I may since I originally replied on James Malm's site, but it wasn't published, probably because, as we all know by now, Malm tends to silence those he disagrees with.
My reply is as follows:
John said: "What’s coming down to this earth? Heaven? Yes! Kingdom? Yes! Throne? Yes! My point was that Jesus, unlike Darris McNeely, EMPHASIZED that we pray: “Thy Kingdom Come” (Matthew 6:10; Luke 11:2) and NOT “Thy Heaven Come” OR “Thy Throne Come.”"
I'm afraid John from my perspective you're coming across vague and contradictory, and playing semantics—perhaps not dissimilar to McNeely you're accusing?
Where does God's kingdom and throne originate? In heaven! Further, it is in heaven where God's will is being fulfilled perfectly. And what does Christ instruct His disciples to pray? "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven" immediately after praying "Thy kingdom come" (Mat 6:10). So, from where I'm standing Christ praying "Thy kingdom come" is the same as praying for God's heavenly kingdom, God's heavenly throne, and God's heavenly will to come to, and be done on, the earth absolutely just like His kingdom, His throne and His will exists in heaven absolutely. Even Tom Robinson in the side article defines what is meant by McNeely's use of the phrase "heaven coming to earth" when he states: "Jesus will soon return to establish the Kingdom of God over the nations, bringing “heaven”—its rule and ways and conditions—to earth." So your questioning McNeely's—and by extension UCG's—motives because of your, in my view, misreading and/or misunderstanding of his use of the phrase is both unfounded and unwarranted, especially in light of the Scriptures as outlined.
Hi Job,
Just to clarify, if the John you have engaged with at the SL should reply, it is not me.
As I said “I haven’t visited JM’s site for quite some time” - it has been many months now, and I haven’t posted anything since the one post in 2018.
Hi Yes and No,
Thanks for the clarification! I wasn’t sure if you were the same “John,” as I’ve noticed this “John” who as you said refers to the “Mickey Mouse Millennium” post on both boards as there are similarities (e.g. This “John” refers to UCG as “United Ass.” and his signature sign off “Time will tell” too). Anyway I thought to give it a gamble just in case so thanks for the explanation, and sorry for the mistaken identity.
Also, I’m a fan of your regular quotations and agree with you re Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection! I’m not sure about heaven being the reward of the saved, but I don’t feel it’s important as a salvation issue either way since wherever the Lord is we’ll be whether that’s heaven or earth.
God bless you John/YNHWA!
Thanks Job for your supportive comment.
This is how I see it. (Part 1).
Ac 1:6 ... they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
1Co 15:50 ... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I have mentioned before on this site, that Andrew Fausset, before HWA was born, understood the two-fold division of the KoG. In the JFB commentary, that was published just after the American Civil War, he wrote:
“... as regards God's instrumentalities for establishing His kingdom on earth, Israel is His chosen people... The Israelite priest-kings on earth are what the transfigured priest-kings are in heaven... Earthly and heavenly glories shall be united in the twofold election. Elect Israel in the flesh shall stand at the head of the earthly; the elect spiritual church, the Bride, in the heavenly... The heavenly Church is elected, not merely to salvation, but to rule in love, and minister blessings over the earth, as king-priests” (Revelation, JFB, Vol.3, Part 3, p.722).
Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel:
2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God... he thee king over them [Israel], to do judgment and justice.
At the end of the second half of Christ’s prophetic week He will set up a descendant of David on His throne to rule for Him. Cp. Peter being set over the Church at the end of the first half week.
The prince maybe a descendant of James, the Lord’s brother. With the death of Jesus Christ, the throne of David was rightly his to sit on. So it was fitting that eventually James became head of the Jerusalem church.
1Ch 17:14 But I will settle him in mine house [Temple] and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Davidic kings, as God’s vice-regents have a dual role - they are over the Temple and the Kingdom - they are king-priests - temple and kingdom builders.
1Ch 15:27 And David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, and all the Levites that bare the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah the master of the song with the singers: David also had upon him an ephod of linen. (No Levitical priest mentioned).
Eze 46:2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate...
An earthly Melchizedek king-priest is a titular priest in that while he is not allowed to go into the inner court he is the patron of the cult - "worship in ritual procedures". (It is suggested that no mention of a high-priest in Ezekiel 40-48 is in keeping with this understanding).
Heb 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
But the heavenly priests, after the order of Melchisedec, are priests who can appear in the presence of God.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:17a For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them...
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand...
“As the earthly Zion was the meeting point for the tribes of the old Israel, so the heavenly Zion is the meeting point for the new Israel...” (F.F. Bruce, The Epistles to the Hebrews, NICNT, pp, p.356).
These two scenes, from the retro-prospective prophetic inserts that they appear in, picture the dual role of the heavenly king-priests.
Part 2
1Ch 11:5 And the inhabitants of Jebus said to David, Thou shalt not come hither. Nevertheless David took the castle of Zion, which is the city of David.
Isa 38:22 Hezekiah also had said, What is the sign that I shall go up to the house of the LORD?
One goes up from the city of David (cp. 1Ch 21:18), and from Solomon’s palace, to the house of the Lord (cp. 1Ch 21:18).
Jn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
The Jebusites picture Satan and the demons.
Joshua pictures Christ’s first half week in regard to Satan and David his second half week. It was only a matter of time after Joshua captured the land that the Jebusites would be displaced - by David.
Mt 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mt 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Da 10:20b I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
The above reveals the “kingly” role of Satan and the demons. Typology suggests that they lost the “priestly” role when they rebelled against God.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus (a prolepsis, cp. Heb 2:8).
Satan tried to disqualify Christ from taking over from him and the demons also try to disqualify the saints from taking over from them.
The heavenly realms where Satan is now maybe considered the lower realm of heaven; and that you “go up” to the higher realm of heaven, where God is present.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest [ton hagion, “Most Holy Place,” (NIV)] by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
“ “The Sanctuary” [ton hagion] is the primary expression the pastor uses to describe the place Christ had entered as High Priest on our behalf. The interpreter who would understand Hebrews must carefully note the two ways in which the pastor identifies this place. First, “the Sanctuary” is “heaven itself” (9:24)... Second, this “Sanctuary” is clearly “the Most Holy Place” of God’s presence “behind the veil” (6:19). Thus the Tent into which Christ has entered consists of a Most Holy Place which is heaven itself...” (Gareth Lee Cockerill, The Epistle to the Hebrews, NICOT, pp.354-55).
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
After the high priest has sprinkled blood on the mercy seat and seven times before it he goes out to “the tabernacle of the congregation” and places blood on the altar of incense and sprinkles blood seven times before it.
Therefore, taking Gareth Cockerill’s observation that ‘heaven’ in Hebrews is the heavenly “most holy place” it seems to follow that by the blood of Christ, Christ and the Saints will enter the recently vacated heavenly “holy place,” and then to “rule in love, and minister blessings over the earth, as king-priests” - in a cleansed heavenly realm (lit., “heavenlies”).
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Lev 16:21 ... the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
"At the end of the second half of Christ’s prophetic week He will set up a descendant of David on His throne to rule for Him. Cp. Peter being set over the Church at the end of the first half week."
What the fresh hell are you babbling about? You are just making things up now aren't you.
Please show me the verse you are referring to.
Hi 5:47
There is no verse, as you would be aware.
I received some distressing news today and I am not in the mood to continue the conversation.
Sorry about this.
Sorry to hear about the distressing news YNHWA may God bless you and yours!
km
Job, October 14, 2019 at 9:12 PM, said "...
If this "John" is the same "John" who posts on the Shining Light Blog I'd like to post the following as a response to his comment dated 30/09/2019 at 4:02 if I may since I originally replied on James Malm's site, but it wasn't published, probably because, as we all know by now, Malm tends to silence those he disagrees with..."
FWIIW, this is my first post to this thread.
You continued saying: "...My reply is as follows...So, from where I'm standing Christ praying "Thy kingdom come" is the same as praying for God's heavenly kingdom, God's heavenly throne, and God's heavenly will to come to, and be done on, the earth absolutely just like His kingdom, His throne and His will exists in heaven absolutely..."
You are welcome to your opinion, but what did Jesus emphasize to pray for? Thy, God's, Kingdom Come. It's a done deal, but we won't speed it up or slow it down, but God's Kingdom shall come.
What else did Christ tell His followers to pray for? "...Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth..." Another done deal. God's will is done in heaven, and someday God's will be shall be done in earth. What makes it different on earth today? There is another will in existence:
"And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim 2:26 You know; the one who causes sin: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning..." I John 3:8
I'm looking forward to God's will, and not Satan's will, being done on earth just like it is in Heaven.
You also added: "...Even Tom Robinson...states: "Jesus will soon return to establish the Kingdom of God over the nations, bringing “heaven”—its rule and ways and conditions—to earth..."
Jesus soon return establish Kingdom over nations? That's the Mickey Mouse Millennium. A human utopia will exist on earth for 1,000 years primarily b/c Satan is confined to a 1,000 year "pit" stop, but will subsequently be released for a short/little time/season and be a scourge and a curse again to this earth, including Jerusalem. God's Kingdom will be established on earth after that short/little time/season ends.
You are welcome to your opinion, b/c time will tell...
John
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