Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
On a Lighter Note: Fleeing to My Place of Final Training and Safety
The first hint of Earthaven comes at the 1:20 Mark
I was personally never a fan of the Church's or at least some in the Church's view of a "Place of Safety and Final Training" I never gave a sermon on it and was quite prepared not to tell anyone that it was time to flee. The whole concept is a cobbled together scriptural hike through the OT and Revelation making things mean what they never meant. Jonestown was the icing on the cake. As most of you know, Gerald Waterhouse's visits were not high on my list of events and eventually I told him so.
But, now, and at this stage of my life personally, I have been given an opportunity to live off grid for the most part and settle in for , hopefully, a last life adventure before a gabillion years of non-awareness. I had in my will that I would be cremated, but evidently I shall more likely now be composted. :)
Will stay in touch as much as practical and give the occasional non-Church of God progress with "Living Intentionally" with a minimal twist.
PS Had a very nice, 45 minute interview with Forbes Magazine London Editor about my personal experiences and impression at AC and in the ministry. The Place of Safety etc, was just a small part of the discussion. There is a podcast and the Editor said that Forbes is branching out into entertainment issues. I told him WCG was very entertaining but more prone to mucking up your life eventually.
Anyway...
Earthhaven Mission Statement
Learning sustainable culture
Community Description
Earthaven is an aspiring ecovillage founded in 1994 on 329 acres in the mountain forests of western North Carolina, about 50 minutes from Asheville. We are spiritually diverse, and value sustainable ecological systems, permaculture design, elegant simplicity, right livelihood, and healthy social relations. We have both vegetarians and omnivores, and some of us raise livestock for food. We hope to become empowered, responsible, ecologically literate citizens who model bioregionally appropriate culture for our time and place. We intend to become a village of at least 150.
Some of us work in small, onsite businesses or nonprofits owned or run by members, including Useful Plants Nursery; Culture's Edge, an educational nonprofit; the School of Integrated Living (SOIL), an educational nonprofit); or by offering services such as tours, campground lodging, carpentry and home construction, home care, child care, and healing arts.
As a learning community dedicated to sharing our resources with the public, we offer workshops in Permaculture design, natural building, consensus decision-making, Sociocracy, creating new ecovillages, herbal medicine, health and healing, and women’s mysteries.
We also host large events such as the Continental Bioregional Congress , the annual Southeast Regional Permaculture Gathering , and a Village Harvest Festival We welcome students and other learning groups, and support homeschool parents of children at Earthaven and nearby. We are seeking hardworking, entrepreneurial people, including but not limited to organic growers and farmers; people with solar system, electrical, plumbing, and mechanical skills; healers, artists, and families with children.
Packing my 2009 Toyota Yaris with ALL my earthly goods. Minimalism has always played a part in my thinking through the years. They all fit nicely and leaving in a couple of days from Portland. If I didn't have astronomy stuff, meteorites, fossils and artifacts, I'd have extra space! :)
Will be living just off Another Way
Excellent Stargazing away from the city lights
Home is the second and third floors to the left. The view is that of gardens, pasture and farm creatures. The place is one of a number of Earthhaven neighborhoods on the 325 acres it encoumpasses. There are about 100 adult members and 25 or so children.
Earthaven in the NC Mountains near Black Mountain
Will be able to have the Best Feasts Ever...
And, of course, occasional "Final Training" or more likely "on going."
The power is solar and stream powered generator for battery storage. Wood for heat.
There will be Internet (Phew) but cell phones may take a bit of a short drive to pick up on.
I would regret turning down the opportunity..
36 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Bobus Thiel will now claim you are joining a commune and will be having wild sex parties. He will find something demonic about it all. Enjoy! It looks fantastic.
My best wishes for your new venture. So many thanks for your many enlightening articles. I was a student and employee at Bricket Wood in the 60/70's & fell hook line & sinker for HWA's con. Charles Hunting & Richard Plache, who were in touch with Ernest Martin, enlightened a small group of us before they were fired. Also, my own observations of the shenanigans of GTA & HWA when they visited, opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of it all. Laurence Harlington, HWA's chauffer (of his Rolls Royce!), kept us informed as to which fleshposts he dropped them off at in London.
It has taken years to get all of the false rubbish out of my head (I am 76 now), but you helped a lot.
My best wishes for your new venture. So many thanks for your many enlightening articles. I was a student and employee at Bricket Wood in the 60/70's & fell hook line & sinker for HWA's con. Charles Hunting & Richard Plache, who were in touch with Ernest Martin, enlightened a small group of us before they were fired. Also, my own observations of the shenanigans of GTA & HWA when they visited, opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of it all. Laurence Harlington, HWA's chauffer (of his Rolls Royce!), kept us informed as to which fleshposts he dropped them off at in London.
It has taken years to get all of the false rubbish out of my head (I am 76 now), but you helped a lot.
Anonymous WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH said... When you ace the Women's Mysteries course please do a write up as I am still trying to figure it all out. Question: does this mean you are now officially worshipping the creation more than the creator?
Response: I will but no guarantees. The mystery is unsolvable. It's more a return to the basics at this stage in life. Had enough change and drama, though I am not naïve as to its potential omnipresence. Where two are three are gathered together and all that. A garden and a return to making bread seems appropriate for this time in life.
Worshipping neither creatures or creator. Suspicious of a Creator that needs obsessive worship or any at all. Seems an insecure frame of mind. ------
TLA said... Dennis - I thought you had already moved from Portland. Did you move back?
Response: I did. That "Mysteries thing". My previous Landlordess invited me back to my previous room/housemates . I knew she had been looking for such a place as Earthaven but then found it. Having only returned to PDX ten weeks ago it caught me off guard and this was the only reason I returned. When I expressed the standard "Oh...hmmm" She said, "But I want you to come with me (platonically) .... and so I am. Long story I suppose. -------------------- Anonymous said... November 26, 2020 at 4:38 PM,
Exactly my line of thinking too re " worshipping the creation more than the creator". Once upon a time respecting the Creator, now despising Him. Sad.
Response. Respecting, appreciation and returning to the basics is more accurate. Don't be sad. Even as a child the "You shall have no other gods before me...for I, the Lord your God am a Jealous God," was troublesome. A better translation , because Polytheism was the belief of the day even among Israelites is "You shall not bring any other gods (which did exist in the minds of the people) into my presence...for I , the Lord YOUR God am a jealous God." What kind of God is that? Is both jealous of other neighboring gods and needs constant adoration and worship? Too Bronze age for me and it should be for yourself. --------------
Anonymous Anonymous said... Fantastic Dennis! Get ready for your Wiccan lectures and cuddle parties!
Response: Actually they make a point of keeping one's politics and religion to oneself. It is both a religious and non-religious community with all sorts of perspectives of course. They run a pretty tight ship on conflict resolution, the first rule being "Don't start one" I'm thinking "Live and let live" is more the rule. A cuddle party about now would be nice :)
If you painted a beautiful painting, but people ignored it and told you how great you are, wouldn't you be a bit disappointed?
If you cook a wonderful Thanksgiving meal, but people ignore it and tell you how great you are, wouldn't you be a bit disappointed?
Any normal creator WANTS you to appreciate his creations, and finds it a bit creepy if you ignore his creations and instead fawn over him. In fact, if you don't fully appreciate the creations, you can't possibly appreciate the creator.
Dennis, you wrote: "Too Bronze age for me and it should be for yourself."
Don't forget to take your Native American artifacts with you. They could use a ride. I recall that Clovis points are found along the East Coast. Did you ever wonder about the guy who made your Clovis point? Or maybe the woman? Some archaeologists believe that women did most of the knapping. Better fine motor skills. But it takes a lot of force (I have first hand experience) to break open a flint nodule. I don't think women did that. But they may have done the pressure flaking. Some also believe that the Clovis people were just passing through North America and later gave rise to some of the South American tribes.
The elephant in the room that nobody seems to want to talk about except Biblical scholars is the marked difference between Yahweh of the OT and God in the NT. Maybe because it sounds the death knell for Biblical literalism and its accompanying exegetical methods. My guess is that there will not be a sermon on this topic anywhere in North America this coming Sunday - particularly not in evangelical or fundamentalist churches.
The Bronze Age Hebrews were monolatrous - they worshipped Yahweh as a god among other gods. This can be established not only from the writings coming out of places like the Princeton Theological Seminary but out of the early parts of the Torah itself. To these early Israelites Yahweh was an ancient Semitic War God and Storm God. His sharp edges were softened by Basil Wolverton for WCG consumption. But even Basil's god was distinctively different from the Jesus who said "Love your neighbor . . ." instead of "Kill the Canaanites."
The primary reason for this is that "God let his children tell the story (see writings of Peter Enns)." The Bronze Age Israelites saw through ancient glasses and wrote their norms and anthropomorphic rhetoric into the text. The really interesting thing is that Yahweh let them believe this ancient viewpoint for a long time before awakening them to monotheism around the time of the Shema. Yet the monolatrous material had made it into the Torah just like it was orthodox teaching. This casts a totally different light on how the Bible is written and what good exegesis is. And for Armstrongism, the Waterhousean exegesis (what you see is what you get) just cannot work.
This is a big topic that has never migrated out of seminary classrooms into the pulpit but needs to. Just one last comment. Armstrongists are immersed in the OT. For them Wolverton's Bible Story seems to be the only kind of story that really counts. So it is not surprising that their god resembles the ancient Semitic War God mediated to them through the anthropomorphic language of Bronze Age Israelites - and Jesus is a little puzzling and is brought out only when absolutely necessary.
Good luck Dennis. Looks like you might fit in. Seems everyone is white and there are plenty of younger women......also white. Please don't try to become the leader. I know you are charismatic and a good speaker, but make sure you don't want more than your share of the young white women just looking for a wise older but still young looking man to follow and......
Anonymous said... Good luck Dennis. Looks like you might fit in. Seems everyone is white and there are plenty of younger women......also white. Please don't try to become the leader. I know you are charismatic and a good speaker, but make sure you don't want more than your share of the young white women just looking for a wise older but still young looking man to follow and......
------------------------ What's with the white and also white? lol. No plans to thoughts to be a "leader". I watched Wild Wild Country and survived WCG! I believe I shall be content being the guy with the cool telescope and huge astronomical binoculars and give tours of the universe.
"Wild Wild Country is a Netflix documentary series about the controversial Indian guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (Osho), his one-time personal assistant Ma Anand Sheela, and their community of followers in the Rajneeshpuram community located in Wasco County, Oregon."
The interviews with former members was so much like coming out of WCG. It was an outstanding documentary. The cult poisoned the community of the Dalles, Oregon to keep them from voting against them and eventually got into Portland wanting to kill the investigating senator. It's quite a story. Osho wanted to make Portland and then all of Oregon his domain and retreat. They ended up fleeing to France
Anon Nov. 27 at 6:06 AM: "Any normal creator WANTS you to appreciate his creations, and finds it a bit creepy if you ignore his creations and instead fawn over him. In fact, if you don't fully appreciate the creations, you can't possibly appreciate the creator."
Excellent observation. Also note Matthew 7:16-20 KJV - "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
If the best way to evaluate your fellow humans is by the outcomes their behavior produces, doesn't it make sense to use the same approach for your deity?
"Any normal creator WANTS you to appreciate his creations, and finds it a bit creepy if you ignore his creations and instead fawn over him. In fact, if you don't fully appreciate the creations, you can't possibly appreciate the creator."
Trouble is Dennis appreciates His creations (admiring nature, star gazing, etc) but does not acknowledge the Creator God of the Bible.
It's just one perspective, but I think it is a valuable one. Life at Earthaven will surely be a happier experience than living in the shadow of Bob Jones University, but in some ways it's just another small town of insular white folks disconnected from the larger culture. For better and for worse.
Dennis- I hope the best for you. However, Im a skeptic when it comes to idealistic/utopian communes , as legions of them have been attempted in history and all of them fail and often lead to disillusionment.
People, in general, suck. May you find the exception.
As for me, my own deficiencies prevent me from joining a group such as Earthhaven. The mountains, the woods, the wood heat, the solar and stream-derived electricity, the potential for burial by composting--all those things sound ideal. But the pictures of large crowds studying together and of people holding hands in circles suggest the place is infested with earnestness. Many people there, maybe most, seem to be earnestly striving for purity. That is not, by far, the worst kind of earnestness, but the fact that is benign does not keep it from irritating my sore spot: an intolerance for earnestness in general.
So I am only a pariah, unfit to partake of such joys as you expect. Even so, I retain enough sense of responsibility not to inflict my defect onto happily earnest communities.
653. I have read it. Its not a utopian place. Think of Mother Earth Magazine stuff. Ive been personally by WCG, the Armstrongs and the JT in drama and BS. I can handle it. It has been around 26 years. We have a year to test it out before decisions on staying etc
I wish you all the best and good luck on your new adventure!
But, I also share Tonto’s doubts. Living in a community like EarthHaven, where people have a common goal, can work out fine on the condition that individual needs are still met. When the "collective" rules over individual interests and needs, is were people will get hurt.
Say it.... you are afraid they don't serve steak there.
The importance of being Earnest.
I didn't mind cuddles by wild twentysomething white girls when I was 6 and I wouldnt mind receiving some when I'm 80.
In between it's all dark and evil.
As a matter of fact I saw Tori Kelly and Kermit sing the rainbow connection. I'll be the Prince turning into the frog anytime.
Nck
PS I've been off, for a huge fever. Dunno if I'm recovering yet or my hallucinatory gift is now gone, but at least my typing fingers seem to be responding again.
Say it.... you are afraid they don't serve steak there."
I hadn't thought about that, but now that you mention it, I've had enough vegetarian lasagna to do me for the rest of my life. For the past couple of days I've been turning a deer into chops, steaks, roasts, and ground meat for tacos and chili. Doesn't sound like a kind of activity Earthhaven would accommodate.
[Scholars talk about] “the marked difference between Yahweh of the OT and God in the NT”; Basil's god was distinctively different from the Jesus who said "Love your neighbor . . ." instead of "Kill the Canaanites"; "God let his children tell the story [of the OT]."
Perhaps, because I am not a scholar, I see no ‘marked’ difference between Yahweh of the OT and God in the NT.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. Mt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV).
I would suggest that Yahweh and God are one and the same ‘person’.
Lev 19:17a Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart Lev 19:18b thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
The God who said “Kill the Canaanites” also instructed Israel to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ex 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, Ex 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.” (NIV).
“Although the problem in theodicy may not be as obvious to the modern mind as it was to Paul, yet to pass over wrong is as much an act of injustice on the part of a judge as to condemn the innocent...” (F.F. Bruce, Romans, TNTC, p.113).
I would suggest that the pre-modern mind had a better appreciation of the holiness of God and theodicy.
I would argue that to see a ‘marked’ difference Yahweh and God involves an under-appreciation of theodicy.
Forgiveness comes at a cost. There has to be a balance between forgiveness and punishment.
David understood this and tried to evade making a decision regarding the woman of Tekoa.
2Sa 14:9 And the woman of Tekoah said unto the king, My lord, O king, the iniquity be on me, and on my father's house: and the king and his throne be guiltless.
When the woman took the cost on herself, David responded in her favor.
When David let Absalom return to Jerusalem he took the cost upon himself and paid a high price - he lost a son, his concubines, and his kingdom for awhile.
As omnipotent as God is, he cannot forgive sin by fiat. He had to pay a price. The cost being the death of His first-born Son - forgiveness and punishment in balance.
Believing or not believing on Jesus Christ, therefore, becomes a life and death manner.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Heb 2:2 For if the word [the Torah] spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; Heb 2:3a How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
"The man who depreciates Christ, or thinks him unworthy of his allegiance, passes judgment on himself, not on Christ. He does not need to wait until the day of judgment; the verdict on him has been pronounced already. There will indeed a final day of judgment (John 5:26-29), but that day will serve only to confirm the judgment already passed... there is no alternative but self-incurred judgment" (F.F. Bruce, The Gospel & Epistles of John, p.91).
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart [kardia, LXX], I try the reins [nephros, LXX], even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Rev 2:23 And I [Jesus Christ]will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins [nephros] and [kai] hearts [kardia]: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Both these concepts appear together only in these two verses.
“This allusion has important christological significance, since the original speaker in 17:10 is Yahweh, but now it is the exalted Christ who possesses the same omniscience” (David E. Aune, Revelation 1-5, WBC, p.206).
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the [people of the] earth. Rev 19:15a And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
“Any view of God [and Jesus Christ] that eliminates judgment and his hatred of sin in the interest of an emasculated doctrine of sentimental affection finds no support in the strong and virile realism of the Apocalypse” (Robert H. Mounce, Revelation, NICNT, p.356).
Ps 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; Ps 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Holy war waged by Joshua, son of Nun, to establish the OT Kingdom of God in Canaan provides the type for holy war waged by Joshua, Son of God, to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth. The conquests of Jericho and Jerusalem being the opening of the campaigns, respectively.
Not only did "God let his children tell the story” of the OT they also told the story of the NT, which creates its own problems. Second Temple Exegesis in the Time of Christ, is arguably, the biggest stumbling block today for Jews and non-Jews to accept. The problem maybe seen in these comments:
Hos 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. (cp. Mt 2:15) Hos 11:2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images. (NIV).
“Those who have studied the interpretation of Scripture among other Jews at the time, particularly at Qumran and among the rabbis, recognised that they are on familiar ground in Matthew, sometimes in the actual interpretative methods he employs, but also more widely in the creative ways he goes about discovering patterns of fulfilment, ways which modern exegetical scholarship often finds surprising and unpersuasive. But Matthew was not writing for modern exegetical scholars, and we may safely assume that at least some of his intended readers/hearers would have shared his delight in searching for patterns of fulfillment not necessarily in what the original authors of the OT texts had in mind but in what can be perceived in their writings with Christian hindsight...” (R. T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, NICNT, pp.12-13).
Two points from above: (1) modern exegetical scholarship often finds surprising and unpersuasive; (2) not necessarily in what the original authors of the OT texts had in mind.
“Just as the use of imperfect human languages like Hebrew and Greek can prove an adequate channel for conveying divine truth unmixed with error, so does prescientific apostolic exegesis serve to communicate, infallibly, the teaching of the Old Testament...” (Moises Silva, “The New Testament Use,” p.164).
(3) Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
“The logic of the book [of Hebrews] is based on ancient rhetorical patterns and pre-modern exegetical principles that makes the reader’s task exceptionally difficult” (Richard Nelson, Raising Up a Faithful Priest - Community and Priesthood in Biblical Theology, p.141).
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; if ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
There has been no change in the priesthood and hence no change in the law.
36 comments:
Bobus Thiel will now claim you are joining a commune and will be having wild sex parties. He will find something demonic about it all. Enjoy! It looks fantastic.
When you ace the Women's Mysteries course please do a write up as I am still trying to figure it all out.
Question: does this mean you are now officially worshipping the creation more than the creator?
Have some fun and don't look back!
In retrospect... I think WOODSTOCK was the place of safety!
Dennis - I thought you had already moved from Portland. Did you move back?
Looks like a fun place.
November 26, 2020 at 4:38 PM,
Exactly my line of thinking too re " worshipping the creation more than the creator".
Once upon a time respecting the Creator, now despising Him. Sad.
Fantastic Dennis! Get ready for your Wiccan lectures and cuddle parties!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdjfTrAUbyQ
Enjoy your next adventure!
Good luck with the adventure.
My best wishes for your new venture. So many thanks for your many enlightening articles. I was a student and employee at Bricket Wood in the 60/70's & fell hook line & sinker for HWA's con. Charles Hunting & Richard Plache, who were in touch with Ernest Martin, enlightened a small group of us before they were fired. Also, my own observations of the shenanigans of GTA & HWA when they visited, opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of it all. Laurence Harlington, HWA's chauffer (of his Rolls Royce!), kept us informed as to which fleshposts he dropped them off at in London.
It has taken years to get all of the false rubbish out of my head (I am 76 now), but you helped a lot.
Good luck (or is luck a pagan idea?)
Regards,
Keith D
My best wishes for your new venture. So many thanks for your many enlightening articles. I was a student and employee at Bricket Wood in the 60/70's & fell hook line & sinker for HWA's con. Charles Hunting & Richard Plache, who were in touch with Ernest Martin, enlightened a small group of us before they were fired. Also, my own observations of the shenanigans of GTA & HWA when they visited, opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of it all. Laurence Harlington, HWA's chauffer (of his Rolls Royce!), kept us informed as to which fleshposts he dropped them off at in London.
It has taken years to get all of the false rubbish out of my head (I am 76 now), but you helped a lot.
Good luck (or is luck a pagan idea?)
DRegards,
Keith D
Socialist commune. Grow marijuana.
Anonymous WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH said...
When you ace the Women's Mysteries course please do a write up as I am still trying to figure it all out.
Question: does this mean you are now officially worshipping the creation more than the creator?
Response: I will but no guarantees. The mystery is unsolvable. It's more a return to the basics at this stage in life. Had enough change and drama, though I am not naïve as to its potential omnipresence. Where two are three are gathered together and all that. A garden and a return to making bread seems appropriate for this time in life.
Worshipping neither creatures or creator. Suspicious of a Creator that needs obsessive worship or any at all. Seems an insecure frame of mind.
------
TLA said...
Dennis - I thought you had already moved from Portland. Did you move back?
Response: I did. That "Mysteries thing". My previous Landlordess invited me back to my previous room/housemates . I knew she had been looking for such a place as Earthaven but then found it. Having only returned to PDX ten weeks ago it caught me off guard and this was the only reason I returned. When I expressed the standard "Oh...hmmm" She said, "But I want you to come with me (platonically) .... and so I am. Long story I suppose.
--------------------
Anonymous said...
November 26, 2020 at 4:38 PM,
Exactly my line of thinking too re " worshipping the creation more than the creator".
Once upon a time respecting the Creator, now despising Him. Sad.
Response. Respecting, appreciation and returning to the basics is more accurate. Don't be sad. Even as a child the "You shall have no other gods before me...for I, the Lord your God am a Jealous God," was troublesome. A better translation , because Polytheism was the belief of the day even among Israelites is "You shall not bring any other gods (which did exist in the minds of the people) into my presence...for I , the Lord YOUR God am a jealous God." What kind of God is that? Is both jealous of other neighboring gods and needs constant adoration and worship? Too Bronze age for me and it should be for yourself.
--------------
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Fantastic Dennis! Get ready for your Wiccan lectures and cuddle parties!
Response: Actually they make a point of keeping one's politics and religion to oneself. It is both a religious and non-religious community with all sorts of perspectives of course. They run a pretty tight ship on conflict resolution, the first rule being "Don't start one"
I'm thinking "Live and let live" is more the rule. A cuddle party about now would be nice :)
worshipping the creation more than the creator
If you painted a beautiful painting, but people ignored it and told you how great you are, wouldn't you be a bit disappointed?
If you cook a wonderful Thanksgiving meal, but people ignore it and tell you how great you are, wouldn't you be a bit disappointed?
Any normal creator WANTS you to appreciate his creations, and finds it a bit creepy if you ignore his creations and instead fawn over him. In fact, if you don't fully appreciate the creations, you can't possibly appreciate the creator.
Dennis, you wrote: "Too Bronze age for me and it should be for yourself."
Don't forget to take your Native American artifacts with you. They could use a ride. I recall that Clovis points are found along the East Coast. Did you ever wonder about the guy who made your Clovis point? Or maybe the woman? Some archaeologists believe that women did most of the knapping. Better fine motor skills. But it takes a lot of force (I have first hand experience) to break open a flint nodule. I don't think women did that. But they may have done the pressure flaking. Some also believe that the Clovis people were just passing through North America and later gave rise to some of the South American tribes.
The elephant in the room that nobody seems to want to talk about except Biblical scholars is the marked difference between Yahweh of the OT and God in the NT. Maybe because it sounds the death knell for Biblical literalism and its accompanying exegetical methods. My guess is that there will not be a sermon on this topic anywhere in North America this coming Sunday - particularly not in evangelical or fundamentalist churches.
The Bronze Age Hebrews were monolatrous - they worshipped Yahweh as a god among other gods. This can be established not only from the writings coming out of places like the Princeton Theological Seminary but out of the early parts of the Torah itself. To these early Israelites Yahweh was an ancient Semitic War God and Storm God. His sharp edges were softened by Basil Wolverton for WCG consumption. But even Basil's god was distinctively different from the Jesus who said "Love your neighbor . . ." instead of "Kill the Canaanites."
The primary reason for this is that "God let his children tell the story (see writings of Peter Enns)." The Bronze Age Israelites saw through ancient glasses and wrote their norms and anthropomorphic rhetoric into the text. The really interesting thing is that Yahweh let them believe this ancient viewpoint for a long time before awakening them to monotheism around the time of the Shema. Yet the monolatrous material had made it into the Torah just like it was orthodox teaching. This casts a totally different light on how the Bible is written and what good exegesis is. And for Armstrongism, the Waterhousean exegesis (what you see is what you get) just cannot work.
This is a big topic that has never migrated out of seminary classrooms into the pulpit but needs to. Just one last comment. Armstrongists are immersed in the OT. For them Wolverton's Bible Story seems to be the only kind of story that really counts. So it is not surprising that their god resembles the ancient Semitic War God mediated to them through the anthropomorphic language of Bronze Age Israelites - and Jesus is a little puzzling and is brought out only when absolutely necessary.
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Good luck! Or as we say in La Bella Italia; in bocca al lupo!
Good luck Dennis. Looks like you might fit in. Seems everyone is white and there are plenty of younger women......also white. Please don't try to become the leader. I know you are charismatic and a good speaker, but make sure you don't want more than your share of the young white women just looking for a wise older but still young looking man to follow and......
Sounds like this is really your wet dream Anon 9:52!
LOL!
9:52 is probably Bobus. He seeks that kind of attention.
Anonymous said...
Good luck Dennis. Looks like you might fit in. Seems everyone is white and there are plenty of younger women......also white. Please don't try to become the leader. I know you are charismatic and a good speaker, but make sure you don't want more than your share of the young white women just looking for a wise older but still young looking man to follow and......
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What's with the white and also white? lol. No plans to thoughts to be a "leader". I watched Wild Wild Country and survived WCG! I believe I shall be content being the guy with the cool telescope and huge astronomical binoculars and give tours of the universe.
"Wild Wild Country is a Netflix documentary series about the controversial Indian guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (Osho), his one-time personal assistant Ma Anand Sheela, and their community of followers in the Rajneeshpuram community located in Wasco County, Oregon."
The interviews with former members was so much like coming out of WCG. It was an outstanding documentary. The cult poisoned the community of the Dalles, Oregon to keep them from voting against them and eventually got into Portland wanting to kill the investigating senator. It's quite a story. Osho wanted to make Portland and then all of Oregon his domain and retreat. They ended up fleeing to France
9:52 sounds more like Dave Pack. Every time he goes on one of his rants you can tell how jealous he is. He spits and rants because he wants it.
Anon Nov. 27 at 6:06 AM: "Any normal creator WANTS you to appreciate his creations, and finds it a bit creepy if you ignore his creations and instead fawn over him. In fact, if you don't fully appreciate the creations, you can't possibly appreciate the creator."
Excellent observation. Also note Matthew 7:16-20 KJV - "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
If the best way to evaluate your fellow humans is by the outcomes their behavior produces, doesn't it make sense to use the same approach for your deity?
November 27, 2020 at 6:06 AM
"Any normal creator WANTS you to appreciate his creations, and finds it a bit creepy if you ignore his creations and instead fawn over him. In fact, if you don't fully appreciate the creations, you can't possibly appreciate the creator."
Trouble is Dennis appreciates His creations (admiring nature, star gazing, etc) but does not acknowledge the Creator God of the Bible.
Dennis,
You like to go into things "eyes wide open," I assume. Maybe you have already read this October 2019 article about Earthaven?
Village Building Stumbles: A Few of the Things Earthaven Ecovillage Has Gotten Wrong
It's just one perspective, but I think it is a valuable one. Life at Earthaven will surely be a happier experience than living in the shadow of Bob Jones University, but in some ways it's just another small town of insular white folks disconnected from the larger culture. For better and for worse.
Dennis appreciates His creations (admiring nature, star gazing, etc) but does not acknowledge the Creator God of the Bible.
Yes. But you know how Dennis feels. Neither you nor Dennis acknowledge the Creator God of the Koran or of the Zend Avesta.
Dennis- I hope the best for you. However, Im a skeptic when it comes to idealistic/utopian communes , as legions of them have been attempted in history and all of them fail and often lead to disillusionment.
People, in general, suck. May you find the exception.
Dennis,
I share both Tonto's hope and his doubts.
As for me, my own deficiencies prevent me from joining a group such as Earthhaven. The mountains, the woods, the wood heat, the solar and stream-derived electricity, the potential for burial by composting--all those things sound ideal. But the pictures of large crowds studying together and of people holding hands in circles suggest the place is infested with earnestness. Many people there, maybe most, seem to be earnestly striving for purity. That is not, by far, the worst kind of earnestness, but the fact that is benign does not keep it from irritating my sore spot: an intolerance for earnestness in general.
So I am only a pariah, unfit to partake of such joys as you expect. Even so, I retain enough sense of responsibility not to inflict my defect onto happily earnest communities.
653. I have read it. Its not a utopian place. Think of Mother Earth Magazine stuff. Ive been personally by WCG, the Armstrongs and the JT in drama and BS. I can handle it. It has been around 26 years. We have a year to test it out before decisions on staying etc
Is this you're new abode?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYk4vLgaHHo
Seems comfy and it's definitely a step above camping. Maybe the best of both worlds.
Good luck and best wishes!
I wish you all the best and good luck on your new adventure!
But, I also share Tonto’s doubts. Living in a community like EarthHaven, where people have a common goal, can work out fine on the condition that individual needs are still met. When the "collective" rules over individual interests and needs, is were people will get hurt.
Oh common Retired Prof.
Say it.... you are afraid they don't serve steak there.
The importance of being Earnest.
I didn't mind cuddles by wild twentysomething white girls when I was 6 and I wouldnt mind receiving some when I'm 80.
In between it's all dark and evil.
As a matter of fact I saw Tori Kelly and Kermit sing the rainbow connection.
I'll be the Prince turning into the frog anytime.
Nck
PS I've been off, for a huge fever. Dunno if I'm recovering yet or my hallucinatory gift is now gone, but at least my typing fingers seem to be responding again.
nck said...
"Oh common Retired Prof.
Say it.... you are afraid they don't serve steak there."
I hadn't thought about that, but now that you mention it, I've had enough vegetarian lasagna to do me for the rest of my life. For the past couple of days I've been turning a deer into chops, steaks, roasts, and ground meat for tacos and chili. Doesn't sound like a kind of activity Earthhaven would accommodate.
Haha RT. (school restaurant)
Anyway, it still looks a welcoming crowd.
Good choppin', but if my presents aren't coming................. :-(
Nck
Nck, sorry to hear you were ill and
best wishes for swift and full recovery
Missed your comments lately...
This is a response to NEO who particularly wrote:
[Scholars talk about] “the marked difference between Yahweh of the OT and God in the NT”; Basil's god was distinctively different from the Jesus who said "Love your neighbor . . ." instead of "Kill the Canaanites"; "God let his children tell the story [of the OT]."
Perhaps, because I am not a scholar, I see no ‘marked’ difference between Yahweh of the OT and God in the NT.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
Mt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NIV).
I would suggest that Yahweh and God are one and the same ‘person’.
Lev 19:17a Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart
Lev 19:18b thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
The God who said “Kill the Canaanites” also instructed Israel to love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ex 34:6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
Ex 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.” (NIV).
“Although the problem in theodicy may not be as obvious to the modern mind as it was to Paul, yet to pass over wrong is as much an act of injustice on the part of a judge as to condemn the innocent...” (F.F. Bruce, Romans, TNTC, p.113).
I would suggest that the pre-modern mind had a better appreciation of the holiness of God and theodicy.
I would argue that to see a ‘marked’ difference Yahweh and God involves an under-appreciation of theodicy.
Forgiveness comes at a cost. There has to be a balance between forgiveness and punishment.
David understood this and tried to evade making a decision regarding the woman of Tekoa.
2Sa 14:9 And the woman of Tekoah said unto the king, My lord, O king, the iniquity be on me, and on my father's house: and the king and his throne be guiltless.
When the woman took the cost on herself, David responded in her favor.
When David let Absalom return to Jerusalem he took the cost upon himself and paid a high price - he lost a son, his concubines, and his kingdom for awhile.
As omnipotent as God is, he cannot forgive sin by fiat. He had to pay a price. The cost being the death of His first-born Son - forgiveness and punishment in balance.
Believing or not believing on Jesus Christ, therefore, becomes a life and death manner.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Heb 2:2 For if the word [the Torah] spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3a How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;
"The man who depreciates Christ, or thinks him unworthy of his allegiance, passes judgment on himself, not on Christ. He does not need to wait until the day of judgment; the verdict on him has been pronounced already. There will indeed a final day of judgment (John 5:26-29), but that day will serve only to confirm the judgment already passed... there is no alternative but self-incurred judgment" (F.F. Bruce, The Gospel & Epistles of John, p.91).
(2) Judgment OT & NT
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart [kardia, LXX], I try the reins [nephros, LXX], even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Rev 2:23 And I [Jesus Christ]will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins [nephros] and [kai] hearts [kardia]: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Both these concepts appear together only in these two verses.
“This allusion has important christological significance, since the original speaker in 17:10 is Yahweh, but now it is the exalted Christ who possesses the same omniscience” (David E. Aune, Revelation 1-5, WBC, p.206).
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the [people of the] earth.
Rev 19:15a And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
“Any view of God [and Jesus Christ] that eliminates judgment and his hatred of sin in the interest of an emasculated doctrine of sentimental affection finds no support in the strong and virile realism of the Apocalypse” (Robert H. Mounce, Revelation, NICNT, p.356).
Ps 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Ps 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Holy war waged by Joshua, son of Nun, to establish the OT Kingdom of God in Canaan provides the type for holy war waged by Joshua, Son of God, to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth. The conquests of Jericho and Jerusalem being the opening of the campaigns, respectively.
Not only did "God let his children tell the story” of the OT they also told the story of the NT, which creates its own problems. Second Temple Exegesis in the Time of Christ, is arguably, the biggest stumbling block today for Jews and non-Jews to accept. The problem maybe seen in these comments:
Hos 11:1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. (cp. Mt 2:15)
Hos 11:2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images. (NIV).
“Those who have studied the interpretation of Scripture among other Jews at the time, particularly at Qumran and among the rabbis, recognised that they are on familiar ground in Matthew, sometimes in the actual interpretative methods he employs, but also more widely in the creative ways he goes about discovering patterns of fulfilment, ways which modern exegetical scholarship often finds surprising and unpersuasive. But Matthew was not writing for modern exegetical scholars, and we may safely assume that at least some of his intended readers/hearers would have shared his delight in searching for patterns of fulfillment not necessarily in what the original authors of the OT texts had in mind but in what can be perceived in their writings with Christian hindsight...” (R. T. France, The Gospel of Matthew, NICNT, pp.12-13).
Two points from above: (1) modern exegetical scholarship often finds surprising and unpersuasive; (2) not necessarily in what the original authors of the OT texts had in mind.
“Just as the use of imperfect human languages like Hebrew and Greek can prove an adequate channel for conveying divine truth unmixed with error, so does prescientific apostolic exegesis serve to communicate, infallibly, the teaching of the Old Testament...” (Moises Silva, “The New Testament Use,” p.164).
(3)
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
“The logic of the book [of Hebrews] is based on ancient rhetorical patterns and pre-modern exegetical principles that makes the reader’s task exceptionally difficult” (Richard Nelson, Raising Up a Faithful Priest - Community and Priesthood in Biblical Theology, p.141).
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; if ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
There has been no change in the priesthood and hence no change in the law.
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