Living Church of God, like its mother church the Radio/Worldwide Church of God, has always ridiculed Christians who are devout followers of Jesus as people not following the "REAL" Jesus that LCG claims to follow. The world is wrong, but LCG is right in its relationship to Christ. Those poor deceived "so-called" Christians around the world follow a different Christ. Actually, the fact of the matter is that LCG is the one following a "different" Christ.
Much like the Mormons who ask their converts to pray earnestly and prove their set of scripture till they get a "burning in their bosom", LCG expects members to diligently"prove" LCG's version of Jesus is the "correct" Jesus.
Prove Your Beliefs: Many assume that simply “believing in Jesus” and accepting Him into your heart is all that is required to be a Christian. However, the Bible teaches differently! The Scriptures warn that false teachers will also talk about believing in Jesus and will deceive many (Matthew 24:3–5; 2 Corinthians 11:1–4). The Apostle Paul advised Christians to “Test [carefully examine] all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Luke states that the Christian belief in Jesus’ resurrection was based on “many infallible proofs” seen by many witnesses (Acts 1:1–3), and Peter mentions that the Apostles were eyewitnesses to events they wrote about (2 Peter 1:16). The Apostle Paul confidently provided a persuasive defense for his beliefs (Acts 26). If we take time to prove what we believe, we, too, should be able to defend and explain what we believe to anyone!
Have a profitable Sabbath, Douglas S. Winnail
69 comments:
Ah yes. The LCg Jesus died on Wednesday. But....Jesus died on Friday, was dead parts or whole of 3 days/nights: 3 calendar days Nisan 14-16, a few minutes or so of darkness Fri afternoon (Ps 104:20), Fri nite, Sat nite (maybe only a few minutes?).
Careful 6:45! That will cause some of them to blow their Herbert corks because his interpretations are the only valid interpretations. Your salvation depends on it!
Firstly, in my view it's a mistake to explain to others what you believe. The information could arouse murderous envy and be used as a club against you.
Secondly, is the LCGs advice to prove things legitimate, or is it to just look good to outsiders while they secretly lord it over their members beliefs?
It's very easy to show that the "Sunday, Christmas, Easter" version of christianity is a false version, but then, John 6:44 comes into play. It's up to God to make it understandable to them.
Problem with old Doug's interpretation of Matthew 24, is his believing HWAs interpretation of it. Total misread and to this day it still sticks in cog members minds.
Jesus did NOT say that in times to come people will be affirming that Christ is Christ. The truth never deceived anyone. He said they will claim "I (the individual wacko) am Christ", David Koresh style. One of HWAs first and most heretical teachings. It was either Herb's lack of basic intelligence or his intentional twisting of a simple Scripture that has deceived so many in these groups.
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LCG is absolutely right, the world believes in a long-haired Jesus created by Da Vinci, a bit effeminate, Hippie-style wimp, who was born on the day of the sun on December 25, who died on a Friday afternoon and after a day and a half he rose again, they believe in a Jesus who abolished the law of God. The strange thing is that this blog is run by a former minister of God and with his resentment he deceives many by mocking God's truth.
This article is absurd, LCG is absolutely right and the bible backs it up.
LCG do not seem to be very sure who Jesus actually is. They certainly seem to have difficulty knowing whether He is God or just the Son of God. If He is God, doesn't that make two Gods with the Father as well? If Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, as all the COG's seem to believe, does that make Him God Almighty and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (see Acts 3:13)? Is He Jehovah (the Eternal One) or is that just the title for God the Father? Or are there 2 Eternal Ones (a contradiction in terms)? Has only one God (the Father) eternally existed? If God is a family (Father and Son at present and from eternity), how can a family eternally exist? Surely a father always exists before the Son. Has Jesus eternally existed or did He come into existence at His human birth? If Jesus is not the second member of the Trinity, why should He be the second member of a Binity, when all other non-Trinitarians outside the COG's believe that God is just One person and not two? Was Jesus fully God and fully man at the same time?
There is utter confusion on these matters in all the COG's, so it is no wonder they are preaching a different Jesus from the Jesus of the Bible.
Koke 61 and Anon @ 5:13. Wow. I am truly sorry for you. Maybe someday you can come to know Jesus, not the Armstrongism version of Him.
Looking at Winnail's comments directly and literally, I dont see any problem with what he said. Living Church of God suffers from legalism, and hierarchy, and other issues, but not everything that is said is untrue or ridiculous.
Like all good literature, the Bible is intended for individual interpretation. It's how it reaches out and grabs each of us as individuals, a matter of the heart. You don't treat it as you would impersonal written materials such as a financial report or a Harley Davidson repair manual, and get all anal retentive about it until you lose the emotional involvement. Armstrongism has a bad history of doing exactly that, starting with their depersonalization of the Holy Spirit, refusing to use His proper pronouns, and demoting Him to a force.
"LCG is absolutely right and the bible backs it up."
No, it's not that simple. The original WWCOG and its splinters believe in an abusive cult device called doctrine over person. The Pharisees criticizing Christ for healing on the Sabbath is one example of this. Doctrines are viewed as having a greater value than people. Which is how HWAs ministered justified unleashing mind boggling verbal violence on members to conform them to the "right" doctrines.
Which is why thousands of members and former members of HWAs churches have horrible life long mental scars. Which is why HWA is portrayed as the Borg king by dissidents. Why is why dissident sites like this exist.
In fact your former leader Rod Meredith had a reputation for mental cruelty. Just before he died, in one of his TV programs he came within a whisker of claiming the right to control peoples mind. Since ownership is defined as control, this amounts to Rod stealing everyone's lives, which makes worshipping God to no effect. Rod went further than Mose's in pushing God to one side, so there's no way that Rod will be in the kingdom.
So you see, LCG is absolutely wrong and the bible backs it up.
The prove all things teaching of the splinters is only the outer face that these groups show to the public. Internally it's a very different story.
Anon513,
In John 6:44 Jesus says, "none can come to me, unless the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"
This stirred me to consider how it is exactly that COG members believe they come to Jesus. I've said this before, but it seems the COGs view Jesus primarily as a sacrifice for their sin and as a future King. But, I don't believe that most have "fully" come to Jesus. This is after many years in the WCG, going to Ambassador College and then the splinter cogs.
I almost said Jesus simply was not talked about, but the COGs will deny that just as I once did because we recognized Jesus was part of the plan... basically in the two capacities above (Sacrifice and King).
But, Jesus is not "part of the plan"; He is the plan. He is the Gospel (that probably turned some people off). He is our Rest. He is our Sustainer, Healer, and Comforter.
Do you long to give Jesus a joyful watery-eyed hug? You don't always feel that way about a sacrifice or king. Why are the COGs uncomfortable using the name Jesus without the title of Christ? Is that not holding Jesus at arms' length? Is that how we want to know Jesus? He said, He and the Father are One and that He lives in us. Is that the relationship you have with Jesus? I have heard sermons making fun of Christians and their "Jesus Jesus Jesus" talk. What is wrong with those expressions? Are your works better than theirs? Are you more loving than they? Are the fruit of the Spirit more evident in your life than theirs? That was not my observation or experience after many years and every level of WCG/COGs.
Have you come to Jesus?
Tonto,
I think the COGs are in danger of claiming a belief in Jesus,but teaching a false Jesus/gospel. Yes, LCG seems very wrong here as well. The verses they quote don't really support them well either.
Should they be using The Book of Knowledge then BB ? Would that make you happy? They could hold it aloft at the pulpit like Moses coming down the mountain holding the ten commandments.
Not sure why my post came out as BB (my apologies to Byker), but to answer your question anon115, I would be very pleased if the COGs simply read from and studied their Bibles honestly without the influence of Armstrong.
10.02 am
Following Christ also means becoming like Him. Televangelists endlessly talk about Jesus but shun teaching their audiences to develop all His traits. Which is why they talk down to their members as if they are kindergarten children. Mature adults are hard to control. The ACOGs persecute members that have discernable Christ like traits.
All the world's churches abuse Christ and His name in various ways.
This (everyone else is preaching a false Jesus) has been a staple of Armstrongism since the days of its founder (HWA). Paul warned the Christians at Corinth about preaching a Jesus different from the one he had preached (II Corinthians 11:4). Paul also told them that he preached Christ crucified (I Corinthians 1:23). In other words, Paul preached a Jesus who had freely offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins - so that we could be made right with God and receive salvation and an eternal home with God. This is the Jesus who exemplified love and compassion for others. In short, a very different Jesus from the one taught by Armstrong and his followers.
anon442,
Most Christians i know want very much to follow and put on the traits of Christ. The COGs always are babbling about Christians who Jesus this and Jesus that and supposedly think they can do whatever they want as long as they believe. Well, again, that has not been my experience. Most Christians have every bit as good behavior as those in the COGs. And the more Bible based Christians generally have better behavior and fruits than those in the COGs.
I get your point, but I believe the Church (the wide ekklesia) is doing better than we know.
Jesus Christ in the gospels said "follow me" either 23 or 24 times depending on how one verse is translated. This must also mean imitating and becoming like Him. This is something that the 'Christ's sacrifice did everything for me' believers conveniently ignore.
Why do you jump to the conclusion that other humans don't ? Is that not indulging in useless arrogance?
Why are you haunted by a dead man who lies in his grave ? Why do you put this dead man who lies in his grave, in a pretty cemetery, more powerful than God the father and Jesus Christ ?
"Like all good literature, the Bible is intended for individual interpretation."
Ho Boy! that statement is absolutely false. No scripture is for private interpretation. If that were the case everyone would have their own doctrine and God would be a God of confusion (kinda like Satan and all of his denominations).
"Why are the COGs uncomfortable using the name Jesus without the title of Christ?"
Y'shua was a very popular name in the day. Y'shua ha Moshiach (Jesus the Christ) would make it known which Y'shua you were referencing. Many places in the NT He is simply referred to as "Christ", and sometimes "Jesus Christ", or even "Christ Jesus".
I think you are just looking for something to criticize.
@7:46:00 PM, will you please provide some links or other sources that support your assertion that people who emphasize Christ's sacrifice do not believe they should imitate and become like him?
“If we take time to prove what we believe, we, too, should be able to defend and explain what we believe to anyone!”
Actually Armstrong followers believe HWA’s interpretations forming the beliefs and practices of Armstrongianity have already been proven true by HWA so there’s no need to prove anything anymore because [insert HWA doctrine] is true and was proven true already by HWA.
Please let's put the house in order! According to this article, the Jesus of the Bible was abusive because he overturned the money changers' table in the temple...ufff, how violent!!! and God was an Armstrognitist because he did not allow Moses to see the promised land.
Jesus was very rude to his mother (Luke 8:21) because when they went to see him he said that his mother and his brothers were the ones who believed in him.
Jesus treated Peter as satan...remember? (Mat 6:33)
Jesus was terrible because instead of abolishing the law he said that he came to fulfill it...and how terrible when the rich young man asked him what he had to do to gain eternal life...uff...poor young man, he had to keep the commandments...terrible, Jesus was an Armstrongist just like Mr. Meredith...why didn't he tell him not to worry because he was going to change all that after his death?
and finally. Jesus was a super Armstrongist because he believed he was the owner of the truth... he declared, "no one can come to the Father if he is not through me." Owner of this blog....repent, you were a COG minister.
Anon 746,
Please tell me what you do or don't do that is better than those Christians you disparage with "Christ's sacrifice did everything for me".
If you mean saturday sabbath and pork please include that. If you mean promiscuity, stealing, murder, or mission trips, soup kitchens, children's hospitals, encouragement please include that. Also, please let me know what Christ's sacrifice did not do for you.
anon335,
Is your contention that COG members use "Jesus Christ" or just "Christ" because using the name Jesus is confusing? Of course not. The Gospel writers almost exclusively used the name "Jesus" alone.
So, my question remains. Why do the COGs feel uncomfortable using the name Jesus alone? There must be a reason.
BTW, the name Jesus is used 983 times in scripture. 196 of those are "Jesus Christ" and 58 are "Christ Jesus". Once Jesus the Christ is used.
Anon 810
It appears to me that you are the one that is utterly confused. Do you even know what Armstrong taught?
1) Is Christ God or the Son of God? Christ has always been God! He became the Son at his human begettal. No difficulty here.
2) 2 Gods? No, 1 God family, 2 members.
3) God of the O.T. ? Before his human birth, Christ was the Word, the logos, the spokesman of the Godhead. It was He, not the Father, who was seen by and conversed with the patriarchs. See John 1:1-3, 18, John 5:37, 1 John 4:12, Gen 1.
4) God Almighty? See Rev.1:8, Isaiah 9:6.
5. The God of Abraham, etc? Compare Ex 3:13-16 with John 8:56-58. That doesn't contradict Acts 3:13!
6) 2 eternal ones are a contradiction of terms? How?
7) How can a family eternally exist if the father exists before the son? see #1
8. If Jesus in not the second member of the Trinity? The problem with the Trinity is not with Jesus being God, but whether or not the holy spirit is a person like the Father and Son are!
9) Why should He be the second member of a binity? Maybe because it's Biblical.
The 1979 revised edition of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, article "Trinity", page 917 admits:
" the NT does? testify to the Spirit's distinct personhood and divinity, BUT MUTEDLY and AMBIGUOUSLY. The Spirit in the NT is personally less distinct than the Father and Son, and his divinity less clearly stated. HE APPEARS as a nearly transparent agent for God and Christ!!" "One properly concludes that the NT is overall clearly BINITARIAN in its data, and PROBABLY??? trinitarian". emphasis mine
Why don't you know these things? Did you ever attend a COG?
4.34 AM My link is the regular articles and posts on this b!og that advocate the Protestant doctrine of universal salvation. Just believe in the Lord Jesus and His sacrifice, and one is automatically saved.
When other posters disagree and point out Christ's "If thou will enter into life, keep the commandments" or "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," such points are simply invalidated or they get a cut and paste mumbo jumbo from some apostate book.
Just how, pray tell, is one to become God? I will never be God. Neither will you. To say that we are to acquire the traits of Jesus is a nice idea, but an impossibility. None of us are eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, all knowing and never will be. If, as the COGs claim thanks to HWAs heresy, that believers in his church will become God as God is God, than that would nullify the truths a.) I am God. There is no other. Before Me was no god formed, after Me shall no god be formed; and b,) God, who cannot change, would then drastically change by adding many more gods to Himself.
The indwelling Holy Spirit changes us to seek to please God above all else. Going beyond that, to try and literally be like Jesus is an absurdity. Being meek, mild, loving, patient and forgiving are do able. Being eternal and Divine are not.
9.18 AM
Herb the salesman claimed that his members will become God as God is God. As you point out, this cannot be. But what humans are capable of is constant improvement. Christ's call to repentance presupposes the ability to change for the better. The bible teaches that Christians will be BORN into the kingdom, which implies baby like abilities compared to Christ and God the Father. Born again Christians will spend eternity growing and becoming more and more like Christ, but never attaining His full character and abilities, such as designing plants and animals. In fact Revelation states that the first fruits will be kings and priests, and nothing more.
DW says,
-How does one become God?
-to acquire the traits of Jesus is impossible?
-to be literally like Jesus is an absurdity?
-being eternal and divine are not do able?
Since your diatribe contained little Scripture, I thought I would throw a few in clarity sake!
I won't try defending Armstrong's take on becoming God, but what about being "sons of God", "children of God", and "heirs of God"? Would that be alright with you? Is that biblical?
To acquire the traits of Jesus, to be literally like Him? Seems to me like the Bible implies that very thing:
" Now are we the sons of God (and) WE KNOW, that when He shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is ", 1 John 3:1-3. Other scriptures that calibrate this truth are 1Cor.15:49-54, Phil 3:21, and compare Rev 1:14-15 with Dan 12:3 and Matt 13:43.
Being eternal and divine? Duh-- eternal life???? Pertakers of His Divine nature (2 Peter 1:4)???
I don't care what you call it, but partaking of His Divine nature AND Divine image is good enough for me!!
I do think some Church of God groups have a lot to offer Christianity and the Holy Spirit of God is in members of some of these groups. Some of the doctrines are interesting and compelling. Some are not. And I could say the same thing about many Protestant groups.
Distortion Contortionist Doug Winnail wrote:
“Many assume that simply “believing in Jesus” and accepting Him into your heart is all that is required to be a Christian.”
Doug, in historic Armstrongite fashion, is distorting what Christianity really believes.
This is a propaganda tactic that has been successful in indoctrinating the people, as evidenced by some the comments added to this post.
I always wonder about Doug’s motives.
Presumably, Doug knows what the Christians he habitually ridicules believe, since his wife, a Christian who broke free from the bonds of Armstrongism, must have shared her beliefs with him.
One must consider that Doug is purposefully deceiving his people.
Regardless of his motives, Doug is indeed dangerous.
Yes, many Christians do believe in the free gift of salvation; that all you need to do is believe in Jesus to be saved, as supported by verses such as:
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
However, the deception is in the second half of Doug’s sentence where Doug twists Christian belief by stating that’s all that we believe is required of us.
Christians believe many things that escape the Armstrongist teachers of the law, who Jesus warned about.
Christians know the practicalities of Jesus magnifying the law, while Armstrongists are stuck with simplistic understanding of the old ten commandments and a few other cherry picked law favorites.
Believing in Jesus magnifying the law to encompass loving your neighbor and being compelled to follow Jesus’ commands and his example, leads Christian groups to establish hospitals, or outreach missions to the homeless – the outpouring of love examples that no Armstrongite groups collectively participate in.
Warning that the Germans are coming does not count as loving your neighbor because in the US, there’s a very good chance that your neighbor has German ancestry – and – the words German and Germany are not in the Bible – so an extra-biblical myth cannot be a bona fide act of love.
My tip for all LCG members who wish to follow Doug’s encouragement to prove all things is to look at each statement Doug writes and evaluate the literal words before your eyes – read them like a child who is learning to read – sound out the words – don’t just consume the broader COG-cliché Doug is pushing.
Doug’s use of COG-clichés are intended to deceive and brainwash you.
Also, Doug is a butcher of Holy Scripture, so you have to look up every verse he drops and determine if he is proof-texting or just hideously errant – Doug is the false teacher, doomsday deceiver he referenced with Matthew 24:3–5.
Koke61 said: "Owner of this blog....repent, you were a COG minister."
He is a high-ranking minister in England
Dangerous Doug Winnail is known for having a poor command of Holy Scripture.
One has to wonder if that’s due to his lack of proper education or whether he is deliberately deceiving those who pay his salary.
Doug wrote:
“Many assume that simply “believing in Jesus” and accepting Him into your heart is all that is required to be a Christian.”
One command of Jesus that the COGs refuse to teach or follow is “JUST BELIEVE!”
Oh how they HATE that law!
Doug’s deception once again necessitates a repeat review of A FEW of our favorite “JUST BELIEVE” verses – the ones that the teachers of the law, like Doug hate:
Acts 16:31
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
John 11:40
Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
I provided just SOME of the JUST BELIEVE verses – there are more.
Extra RESPECT points to any COG members who dare add to the list of JUST BELIEVE verses that they have encountered.
Yes, I am sprinkling in a few all-cap words to make you feel comfortable, like you’re rocking in the bosom of HWA - but I am also encouraging you to surpass the knowledge and wisdom of the teachers of the law, like Doug Winnail - and JUST BELIEVE in Jesus, as all you need for salvation.
Hello Koke61: at 5:24:00 AM PST, you mentioned the rich, young ruler whom Jesus instructed to keep the commands.
Therefore, you must not only be familiar with this passage found in Mark 10:17–22, you must be a literal follower of the instructions of Jesus, in this passage – thank you for your kind example.
I like the part of this teaching in which Jesus tells the rich, young ruler to sell all his possessions to give to the poor (verse 21).
As an example of godliness, please share with us, from the computer you must be borrowing at the public library, your testimony of giving all you have to care for the poor.
Jesus walked the earth as a man under the Law – he lived perfectly under the Law.
At the time he was talking to the rich, young man, Jesus told him to follow God’s standard of holiness, as it existed at that time.
However, Jesus wanted to point out to this man that he failed to meet God’s standard for holiness, and needed a Savior, despite the man’s claim that he had always followed the law.
Later in this chapter, Jesus was discussing how hard it is for a man to enter the Kingdom.
In verse 26, the disciples asked who then could be saved.
In verse 27, Jesus replied, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
Looking to law-keeping to earn salvation is the same mistake the rich, young ruler and all of the COGs have made.
Christians look to God’s free gift, as the only way to salvation.
Koke61, will you confess that you cannot keep the law well enough to “qualify” for salvation, will you cease from your work of trying to do the impossible that belongs in the realm of God; will you profess belief in Jesus as your Savior, and trust in him to redeem you, to justify you, and save you?
He is a high-ranking minister in England
Since he's a minister in one of Satan's fake churches, he needs to repent even more.
da Vinci? The longhaired Christ in art goes back a thousand years prior to the Renaissance, FWIW.
Koke, have you been snorting your namesake or something? Where do you even get such ideas? A high ranking minister in England???
Gary has made no secret of his identity and has shared many of the details from his past history, not only on this, his own blog, but also on other blogs, and the old forums. I personally came here because Gary had many interesting things to share on the old Worldwide Church of God Alumni Forum prior to starting this blog. Even Bob Thiel knows who he is!!!
About this repentence thingie, is God expecting us to repent of helping people now???
Have a profitable $abbath. Dougla$ $. Winnal. I $sure did, raking in your tithe$.
5.25 PM
"Believing" in Christ doesn't just mean believing in His existence and that's He's the son of God. Even demons do that. "Believing" here means believing in the qualifies that He embodies. This everyday 'just believe in Christ' is one manifestation of the shortcut mentally that plagues millions. It's why scammers succeed in stealing billions of pounds per year in England alone. Those who believe that there's no free lunch are immune or much less susceptible.
" Anonymous jim said...
anon335,
Is your contention that COG members use "Jesus Christ" or just "Christ" because using the name Jesus is confusing? Of course not. The Gospel writers almost exclusively used the name "Jesus" alone.
So, my question remains. Why do the COGs feel uncomfortable using the name Jesus alone? There must be a reason.
BTW, the name Jesus is used 983 times in scripture. 196 of those are "Jesus Christ" and 58 are "Christ Jesus". Once Jesus the Christ is used.
Wednesday, February 8, 2023 at 8:34:00 AM PST"
Like I said, apparently you are simply looking for something to criticize.
Anon 335 and Jim ask,
"Why do the COG's feel uncomfortable using the name Jesus alone?"
I think it boils down to being a matter of reverence and respect.
Robert Anderson, in his book "The Budda of Christiandom" says, There is not recorded in the four gospels one solitary instance where a disciple ever addressed Christ or spake of Him save as Lord or Master (John 3:13). The holy inspiring spirit does use the name Jesus , but none of his own disciples ever addressed Him in such a familiar manner. His enemies did (Acts 4:18,40), vagabond Jews did (Acts 19:13), demons and evil spirits did (Matt 8:29, Mark 1:24).
E.W. Bullinger in the Companion Bible commentary on John 3:13, agrees:
"Would that Christians today would treat Him with the same respect which he here commands, instead of calling him by the name of His humiliation, Jesus, by which he was never addressed by disciples, only by demons (Matt 8:29), and those who only knew him as a prophet (Mark 10:47, Luke 18:38). The holy spirit does use the name Jesus in the gospel narratives for historical purposes".
The idea is, calling Him Jesus now is treating Him like He is just another guy, instead of the Lord and Master that he is! Can you imagine calling Mr. Armstrong HERBERT back in the day??
Well, 5:42, there were those who frowned on us for calling Mr. Armstrong HWA. The correctly respectful form was Mr. HWA if the initials were used. Personally, I liked the name 'Ol Hog Jowls myself, because I always saw him as a mere man, and not the quasi-Biblical character others made him out to be. There were some words in David Bowie's "Ziggy Played Guitar" that I thought were very appropriate to HWA.
The fact that what you just stated has become lost or muddied by time begs the question of what else might have been lost to antiquity about the Savior. Someone wiser than I once stated that the very act of translation from one language to another is in reality paraphrase. Supernatural characters require occasional supernatural reminders throughout history in order to remain real and relevant. I believe that is why some tend to elevate mortals such as HWA and their work into supernatural status.
BP8,
I appreciate your response and get what you are saying. "If you state 'Jesus is Lord' you will be saved." This verse is encouraged and involves using simply "Jesus" without any other identifiers or titles.
Further, the Gospel writers consistently say Jesus did this or that.
But, you gave a reason and reverence is a good reason to choose to do something. I disagree but I won't quibble. BTW, Do you think the Lord for eternity wants more personal reverence than personal love or more personal love than personal reverence? Maybe it's not a good question or answerable.
Anon440,
You said, "Like I said, apparently you are simply looking for something to criticize."
Spoken like a true COGite. You won't answer a simple question and presume to know what others "really" mean and believe.
I know you "really" responded this way because you know your concern for others and your works are very limited.
Anon1119,
You said, "This everyday 'just believe in Christ' is one manifestation of the shortcut mentally that plagues millions."
Do you really think that most Christians just "believe in Christ" like the demons? Not my experience at all. They consistently thank Him and call out to Him and know Him as their Lord and Savior.
We can always find examples one way or the other, but the number of Christians that adore the Lord far exceeds the number in the COGs that do so.
Armstrong and his ministry consistently lied about Christians. Don't perpetuate it.
Jim, I think in eternity, personal love and reverence will go hand in hand, which makes it a good idea to yield to them now!
Also, the Bullinger commentary reference I used in my earlier post was based on John 13:13, not 3:13! Oops!!
"Anon440,
You said, "Like I said, apparently you are simply looking for something to criticize."
Spoken like a true COGite. You won't answer a simple question and presume to know what others "really" mean and believe.
I know you "really" responded this way because you know your concern for others and your works are very limited.
Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:56:00 AM PST"
I think 254 times qualifies as "many times". So, it's ok for the NT writers to do it, but not a COG minister?
Like I said, I think you are simply looking for something to criticize.
651,
There's a logic break in your comment; no one said it is wrong to use "Jesus Christ", just why the discomfort to use simply "Jesus". You or someone said they didn't just say "Jesus" because it would be confusing Who they were referring to. I showed that "Jesus" was used by itself more than with any other term or title.
All you have done is come on this forum with your assumptions and have not added anything of substance. I've learned my lesson...and thankfully I'll recognize the tone of your anonymous postings in the future and move on. jim
What Church is Gary DeMar from? He is not COG, rather he belongs to traditional and mundane Christianity.
Back in the '70s, there was a bumper sticker religious movement going on. You'd see bumper stickers that said "I found it!" usually with a picture of a cross. Others came along saying "We never lost it," with a star of David adorning the sticker. Then there were the ones that said "Honk if you love Jesus," Not to be outdone, some joker came up with "Honk if you ARE Jesus!" The funniest thing I saw caused by these bumper stickers was a Hispanic guy honking his horn at a car with a "Honk if you ARE Jesus" bunper sticker. I nearly wrecked my automobile laughing. It was the spiritual/cultural war coming to its inevitable conclusion.
Who the hell is Gary DeMar?
For once, someone is actually citing a known person, R. There is a Wikipedia page on Gary DeMar.
Recently, in his blog, Rasmus Rasmussen detailed how he built a home media server to process and store all of the media which is of interest to him. I'm just wondering when someone who is part of the Armstrong movement will build one to catalogue the media emanating from all of the ACOG splinters. If anyone were to do this, it would dwarf the resources of the Kitchens, Bob Thiel, or Dave Pack, each of whom I am sure produce a plethora of media. It would benefit the rest of us in that it documents all the errors and false statements made by each which tend to debunk the deceived.
" Anonymous Anonymous said...
651,
There's a logic break in your comment; no one said it is wrong to use "Jesus Christ", just why the discomfort to use simply "Jesus". You or someone said they didn't just say "Jesus" because it would be confusing Who they were referring to. I showed that "Jesus" was used by itself more than with any other term or title.
All you have done is come on this forum with your assumptions and have not added anything of substance. I've learned my lesson...and thankfully I'll recognize the tone of your anonymous postings in the future and move on. jim
Friday, February 10, 2023 at 10:38:00 PM PST"
Why do you assume there is "discomfort"? The ministers are doing what some NT writers did, but you criticize them for it? How are they wrong in attaching the title Christ to Jesus' name?
I think I've given you something to think about, which is certainly something of substance that could benefit you.
People tend to resort to personal attacks when their argument won't hold up. You felt a need to refer to me as a "true COGite", which on this blog comes across as an attempted slur. This is something else of substance you can consider, if you so choose.
You're right! "True COGite" ot
"COGlodyte" is our version of, well, use your imagination. R word? F word? N word? Only difference is that that the COGlodytes don't have enough political clout to make us go to sensitivity training.
It may be true that some are not likely to use the name Jesus due to feeling it’s less respectful.
However, I don’t think that’s the official position of HWA or the resulting COG hog litter.
I assume COGs are not comfortable using the name Jesus because they’re not too familiar with Jesus.
The COGs don’t seem to know Jesus as the Savior who can save them despite the depth of their sins.
Their leaders, like Winnail, have convinced them that their legal indebtedness has not been cancelled, nailed to the cross, contrary to the blessed words recorded in Colossians 2:14 – in fact, the COG’s have made the word cross the dirty word that they’ve cancelled.
Though this fine blog has one poster who keeps writing warnings about gnashing of teeth, one can’t help wondering if it will be the teeth of the poor COGlodytes who’ll have a future date with dental trauma.
I hope it will not be so – I’d rather that their teeth and their souls be safe, but what can you do with a bunch who label as merely mundane the so-called Christian churches who preach about a Savior who gets the job done.
The poor GOGlodytes seem to have no stomach for grace paid for with the blood of Jesus, while their itching ears are tuned and tickled only by fables about bloodthirsty, invading German hoards.
The COG bosses insist that their people must seek their own righteousness, instead of preaching justification by the righteousness of Jesus.
With little imagination needed but with great sadness, it’s easy to foresee Jesus saying that he never knew those COGlodytes who were not cozy with him being their everything.
Prayer for the people of LCG:
Holy Jesus, help these people to believe in you, to accept you into their hearts.
Please open these needy hearts to hold you dear enough to be the fulfillment of their desire.
Jesus, give them kinship and reconciliation with those in the church body that loves your name.
Free them to know you Jesus, as the Savior so great to cancel their debt before their existence, and yet lives to make them free.
Holy Jesus, cause them to live as they are free, free from sin, free from deception, free in your victory.
Amen!
"The poor GOGlodytes seem to have no stomach for grace paid for with the blood of Jesus, while their itching ears are tuned and tickled only by fables about bloodthirsty, invading German hoards."
The folks here have their own definition of grace. It goes something like this: I walked down the aisle, professed Jesus as my savior, got dunked in (or sprinkled with) the water, and now I'm free to go about my life doing as I please because I'm covered by the blood.
Seriously??? Jesus came and suffered a horrible death because we sinned so that we can continue sinning without the guilt? Only a deceived (or demented) mind could believe such a thing.
Anon439,
Your response illustrates the degree to which Armstrongists do not understand grace and sanctification. I can list shocking incidents in my experience as a teen in YOU and as an AC grad among those in headquarters and in my local church area and region that were not named among those Christians you have been told to believe just "go about life doing as they please."
You are ignorant of genuine non-COG Christians.
Wow, 4:39:00 AM, I don't know any Christians, or posts to this blog that define grace as you claimed in this statement:
"The folks here have their own definition of grace. It goes something like this: I walked down the aisle, professed Jesus as my savior, got dunked in (or sprinkled with) the water, and now I'm free to go about my life doing as I please because I'm covered by the blood."
Please provide a reference so that I can research your claim.
Your claim sounds a lot like Doug's COG-odd statement about the beliefs of Christians, which was the reason for this post.
You also wrote:
"Seriously??? Jesus came and suffered a horrible death because we sinned so that we can continue sinning without the guilt?"
Again, I don't know anyone who thinks this way.
Your statement seems like a classic question-asked-and-answered scenario that judges always chastise wayward lawyers for, due to their attempts to mislead a jury via a dirty trick.
Anyone who would believe as you said above certainly does not know what grace is - and resultingly, may not yet have had an encounter with God's grace (please join me in prayer that they do lavish in such a true, beautiful encounter).
Further, you convict the unknown grace-garbler with this statement:
"Only a deceived (or demented) mind could believe such a thing."
How would you convict someone who mis-states what Christians really believe about grace?
What do you suppose is the motivation behind making up a derogatory statement about what someone believes about grace?
Is such an action slanderous?
Is such an action a display of grace-awareness?
Is there any good intention behind such an action?
If you do respond, perhaps your thoughts would shed insight on why Doug would make a similar grandstanding mis-statement about the belief of Christians.
It seems to me that Armstrongism depends on deceiving people about what those "so-called Christians" believe regarding Jesus and grace - but it's in your hands, to set the record straight.
I have asked COG friends to provide me sermons from their church about grace - they never have, although they've sent me several sermons, of which I concluded could all be put into the categories of being all about law or end-time scare-gobbledegook.
Therefore, I wrote:
"The poor GOGlodytes seem to have no stomach for grace paid for with the blood of Jesus, while their itching ears are tuned and tickled only by fables about bloodthirsty, invading German hoards."
Yes, I believe that the unabridged COG record of all materials ever produced demonstrates that they do not care to hear/write much about grace, but they have a HUGE, insatiable appetite for Germans, and other non-biblical myths.
Please help me understand true COG doctrine by providing links to any COG sermons or booklets about grace.
I already know where I can find an abundance of material about law and end-time prophesies.
Surely, as a defender of COG doctrine, you can provide proof of what you believe, as Doug stated you should do in his quoted post.
If you would like to know what I believe about grace, I'd be very happy to share, at length, that with you; however, it is Valentine's Day and I have family obligations to attend to tonight, so tomorrow would be better for me - if you really care to lend fairness, open-mindedness and hear what I believe about grace.
Thank you for your participation in this conversation; I hope it will continue!
"You also wrote:
"Seriously??? Jesus came and suffered a horrible death because we sinned so that we can continue sinning without the guilt?"
Again, I don't know anyone who thinks this way.
Your statement seems like a classic question-asked-and-answered scenario that judges always chastise wayward lawyers for, due to their attempts to mislead a jury via a dirty trick."
Well, for starters, a great number of posts here claim that christians are not under the law, the OT law is not binding on NT christians, etc, etc.
Since sin IS the transgression of the law, the logical conclusion is that NT christians are free to ignore the law and do what they please, because, grace.
I find that totally insane.
Anon517,
I'll draw an analogy. The Articles of Confederation was the initial document the original 13 colonies prepared when designating the rules of our government. We had declared independence from Britain and needed a government. After the Revolutionary War ended, a group of inspired geniuses created the Constitution of the United States.
There were things in common between the two documents such as representative government, but the new agreement (Constitution) had different terms and conditions than did the Articles of Confederation.
After the Constitution was ratified, there was no need for the Articles of Confederation. Those Articles were done away with and a new Agreement (the Constitution) with different terms was now the governing Agreement. There was overlap in both documents, but only the ratified Constitution was the current binding Agreement.
The Law is like the old Articles of the Confederation. The Law was good and holy, but it is not the Agreement we are under. A new Covenant was made and the Sinai laws are no longer the source of our Agreement. Through Christ's sacrifice the New Covenant provides better terms and better Promises. Faith is the measure now, but if your faith is without goodness/works, it is dead which may well mean you never had faith.
Attaching yourself to the Sinai Covenant may make you believe that all this New Covenant talk sounds wishy washy, but Paul in Gal. 4 tells us explicitly if you are hanging onto the Sinai Covenant you WILL miss the great promises of the New Covenant and the Jerusalem above. All of us from the WCG would do well to reread Galatians.
The behavior of the New Covenant Christians has been better in my experience than that of the WCG Law adherents. So, your concerns that New Covenant Christians will live any old way they want to is not the case. If they do, it may well be that they never had faith.
The New Covenant fully teaches moral and spiritual behavior. The New terms and promises are just better than the Sinai laws...this is explicitly scriptural and stated in Galatians. And the Sinai Laws were gholy and good, it's just that that agreement is no longer in force.
Hello 4:39/5:17:
You wrote:
"Well, for starters, a great number of posts here claim that christians are not under the law, the OT law is not binding on NT christians, etc, etc."
Yes, you are correct, I claim Christians are not under the law ... because that's what the Bible claims:
Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
We are not under the law - despite law being the major topic of COG literature and sermons.
We are under grace - despite the COGs never discussing the topic.
I'm sure that you think you keep the Old Covenant Law - but Armstrongites ignore much of the Old Covenant law and have modified other parts to suit their preferences - despite the fact that that law stands as a whole; not keeping one part of the law means that you broke the entire law:
James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Furthermore, being justified by Jesus is our only path to the righteousness that matters to God.
Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God
Justification is a biblical topic that the COGs won't go near - despite it being the means by which we are at peace with God:
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
The alienated COGs try to justify or "qualify" themselves by keeping their abridged version of the law, despite biblical warnings not to do so:
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
In your first post, you wrote:
"Seriously??? Jesus came and suffered a horrible death because we sinned so that we can continue sinning without the guilt?"
Focusing on the "continuing sinning without the guilt" part of your statement, I offer:
Romans 8:1-3
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.
Focusing on the "Jesus came and suffered a horrible death" part of your statement, I find no evidence that the COGs care about the atonement, redemption, justification, and grace parts of brought by the suffering and death of Jesus (you, and my COG associates have not offered any evidence).
New Covenant Christians do believe that sins is BAD and we do strive remove it from our lives, as we strive to grow in righteousness, grace, and knowledge - in all things, we rely on Jesus to facilitate our righteousness and growth.
I've written many statements on this blog about is required of Christians, as Jesus has fulfilled and magnified the law.
I don't know why COG leaders like Winnail, and you, bear false witness against Christians - but, I hope you'd shed some light on the topic.
@ Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 11:57:00 AM PST
Some might fall for that analogy, but it is deeply flawed.
There is no new law, only the original law lifted to a spiritual plane.
The old covenant was physical, physical blessings for physical obedience.
The new is spiritual. Everlasting life for spiritual obedience. It is possible to violate the spirit of the law while keeping the letter perfectly. Keeping the spirit of the law results in spiritual reward, becoming the same type being as God our Father.
So, no, you can't weasel out from under obedience and claim to be christian. Those that teach such are teaching a false gospel, about a false christ. He warned us that would happen.
Doug Winnail wrote: "...Many assume that simply “believing in Jesus” and accepting Him into your heart is all that is required to be a Christian....If we take time to prove what we believe, we, too, should be able to defend and explain what we believe to anyone!..."
******
Which Jesus does Doug have in mind when he wrote the above? How does Doug know that he doesn't have "another Jesus" in mind than was mentioned in scripture?
Well, Doug believes that his Jesus, probably "another Jesus," is coming very soon (yesterday?) to reign on earth for 1,000 years assisted by highly character-developed people of the former WCG (then followed by peeps of GOBAAL, and now followed by peeps of Living [[dead?]]), and he has been writing/preaching about it for decades.
Has Doug ever proved that "second coming" of Jesus? He still defends that "very soon" return of some Jesus to live on planet earth reigning for 1,000 years with people who think like Doug believes.
How would $profitable$ Doug defend and explain his Jesus: the "very soon to return 'second coming' Jesus to reign on earth 1,000 years" belief today, in 2023?
Time will tell...
John
Jesus says there is new law.
There is the law of Christ, law of Liberty, law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, law of faith, law of liberty, law of love, etc.
Jn. 13 A new law I give you...
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Gal 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Heb 7:16
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Jas 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
The "new law" is the same law raised to a spiritual level. Love God, love your neighbor. That is the whole of the law.
Anon556,
Do you have a verse for "the new law is the same law raised to a spiritual level"?
I know that the law is summed up in "Love God, love your neighbor". but what about the new law being raised to a spiritual level?
This sounds like putting new wine in an old wine skin, doesn't it?
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