No More Tiers
David C. Pack of The Restored Church of God cannot help himself sometimes. As the years wear on, he continues to be worn down by the unending Series. The shroud of restraint decays, allowing the brethren to catch glimpses of what their Pastor General is like behind the curtain.
While working at Headquarters, I recognized his comfort tiers with letting people see his true face. The more conversations I had with former ministers and employees, the more this tier system was supported.
The posthumously granted William H. Behrer recordings gave a real-time snapshot at the most intimate level. The first article revealed how David C. Pack wanted Bill to lie to a member to apply pressure to get money (Common). The second article covered Dave’s unrealistic demands on the History Channel. None of which he received, but he did the show anyway. In the recording for the third article, Dave mused if the RCG ministers were incompetent. This shined a documented light on Tier 1.
There are worse stories out there. Ask Ryan Denee.
Tier 1 – Inner circle confidants
Tier 2 – Headquarters ministers
Tier 3 – Headquarters employees
Tier 4 – Field ministers
Tier 5 – Headquarters congregation
Tier 6 – Church brethren
Tier 7 – Public*
Since departing from RCG, I have had long conversations, including story-swaps with at least eight former ministers and all three of Dave’s adult children. Some of those people I now consider friends.
Though I do not share their details publicly because it is up to them to decide if their information should be released, every person had a similar theme regarding David C. Pack.
Who you see on the screen is not the man he is when the door is closed. Universal. Across the board. David C. Pack used to be very aware of his surroundings and adjusted his behavior to the audience witnessing him.
But not anymore.
Universally, across the board, those folks agree the last twelve months have revealed a change in Dave’s ability to restrain himself. Some phrases I heard stuck with me, "unhinged," "losing it," and "deteriorating."
Tiers used to separate Dave’s levels of honesty.
What he would say to Tier 1 Confidants is not something he would repeat to all Tier 2 HQ Ministers, especially if he was talking things through, scheming, or committing character assassination.
Tier 2 would hear information not to be shared with Tier 3 HQ Staff unless it was Campus or church-development related. The Headquarters ministers enjoy endless hours-long ministerial Bible studies that blow up schedules and melt brains. If you did not tow the company line in there, you got sniped. The most shocking discussion that two men corroborated independently was when Dave asked, "Is Jesus Christ God?"
Tier 3 HQ Staff would hear things only because of proximity to Dave that would not get to Tier 4 Field Ministers. Field ministers would sometimes learn something at the same time as Tier 6 Brethren. The staff would receive mini-sermons once in a while before lunch. The Staff Meetings had some interesting eyes-only nuggets, especially after a minister left or was fired.
Tier 4 Field Ministers would get information formally filtered through Church Administration or their Headquarters contact. A field minister is an obviously “adopted child” in the organization. As long as they repeat the pre-packaged script when uncomfortable questions arise and keep the tithes flowing, they are labeled “faithful” by their benevolent benefactors.
Tier 5 HQ Congregation would hear things at the lectern that were later edited out by MPS before they reached Tier 6 Brethren. Edges of the blade were selectively dulled before it reached the wider audience. The local congregation was also privileged to encounter conversations with the Pastor General in the hallway while everyone enjoyed a coffee. This was especially popular after a message when singing praises to Dave was involved.
Tier 6 Brethren used to receive the sanitized versions of the sermons. For a while, they even received extra content recorded after the fact and spliced in that Monday. Back in the days of the Feast of Tabernacles Hand-Shaking Line, this is when the ordinary people were allowed to meet Caesar, kiss his ring, and enjoy a momentary thrill.
Unless things have changed, they stopped doing that in 2020.
Tier 7 Public is non-existent. The last new The World to Come episode was released over five years ago, in December 2017. The others posted since were re-edited re-releases. The Media Center Studio is now a Museum of Church History, most utilized when bankers come by for a tour.
*The caveat to this is the sporadic Brethren/Co-Worker Letters distributed to those who are not members yet have given RCG money. In this case, Tier 6 Brethren get content that is removed so the Tier 7 Public does not become alarmed because Jesus Christ is set to return next week.
To any co-workers or donors who get this publication: You receive a sanitized version. FYI.
That long explanation laying out the Tiers has a purpose.
What David C. Pack used to say only to Tier 2 HQ Ministers is now shared with the Tier 6 Brethren. The self-awareness curtains have come down. The rants and hissy fits that only Tier 3 HQ Staff were subject to are now spittled on the entire church.
Part 400 – October 22, 2022
The very things MPS used to cut out of sermons are now free to fly to the broader audience.
Part 396 – October 1, 2022
Part 407 – November 30, 2022
Criticisms leveled at the church brethren now have nitromethane added to the fuel tank.
Part 430 – March 18, 2023
Over the past year, David C. Pack has learned who God works with and who will receive salvation. That is quite a leap in responsibilities for an apostle to determine. The Tier separating God and Dave has also been growing thin.
Why is this happening? The guy does not care anymore.
David C. Pack is exhausted by defeat and is weary with losing. The endless Series is a heavy load to bear. He has said so. No matter how many times he puts Bible verses together to create a perfect, crystal clear picture, it turns to ash just before the ruse-induced date he was sure was finally IT occurs.
All is not well. Things are off the tracks. Nothing is fine.
“How could it fail when all the ministers agreed?”
“How can this be wrong when the verses point to this being as certain as rain?”
“How could the chosen messenger misunderstand the most important message he would ever deliver?”
Because this is NOT his job. It is not David C. Pack’s job to unseal Daniel. It is not David C. Pack’s job to end the Mystery of God. It is not David C. Pack’s job to become the final Elijah That Prophet.
He will never succeed because he was never commissioned to take this on. Dave’s god is an incompetent lying trickster. The god Dave serves leaves him high and dry with his trousers around his ankles and pie on his face. The Spirit of Error runs the show at Headquarters now. But, the lawn sure looks nice.
David C. Pack and the brethren of The Restored Church of God are waiting for a bus that will never come. The route was changed, but they are unwilling to see the signposts all around them. They refuse to acknowledge the evidence flailing before their eyes and screaming in their ears.
David C. Pack is a fraud.
RCG is caught in a behavioral time loop. Dave sells a house to the brethren built on sand. It collapses, but the brethren still want to buy it. So, he builds another house on the same spot. It also collapses, but the brethren are determined to keep buying it. Gladly, Dave builds another in the same spot.
House built on sand. Collapse. House built on sand. Collapse. House built on sand. Collapse.
That is The Restored Church of God.
Even ants can figure out to move and build somewhere else.
Dave is either an idiot with a severe learning disability or the man is cursed. He is either stupid or compelled without awareness. Intelligence is not the core issue here.
His narcissistic ego forbids him from facing reality. Those who recognize what is happening in RCG and choose to stay are far worse off than those who are blissfully ignorant, embracing willful blindness.
May 5 will come and go despite David C. Pack shrugging it off as “not his job.” It is too late for that. He said the Kingdom of God would arrive on the Iyar 15. The counter ticks down.
As the Tiers of self-control continue to collapse into each other, the deterioration of David C. Pack will further escalate. Desperation and exasperation take a sledgehammer to his mental-verbal restraints.
There will come a day when the man's most wild and crazed thoughts will shoot out of his mouth directly to the entire church.
That will be the day we all understand there are no more tiers.
Marc Cebrian
See: No More Tiers
28 comments:
“Dave is either an idiot with a severe learning disability or the man is cursed.” -- MC
Probably both, but at least Dave Pack has all the power and gets all the money.
It is Dave's followers who have a serious learning disability and who really are cursed. They have no power and give all the money.
The victims of Dave's Bait and Switch scam need to start to VOTE differently with their feet and with their money.
Ahh... so he admits he's in debt for his pipe-dream buildings-program! --- including the pricey HD'Media-Center' (which is now mothballed because he can't afford purchasing massive worldwide air-time)(the other top Armstrongist-cults still burn mountains of money purchasing air-time around the globe)(running at a colossal loss trying to generate members/income)
They all should have learned from the mother-cult - WCG - which hit a brick wall on the television media balance sheet, even as early as the 1970s, but especially after the scandalous departure of handsome glib-tongued Garner Ted!
Let me give these Armstrongist-cult-executives a clue:
If you're spending millions of dollars airing a television program that is re-pleat with bizarre conspiracy-theories like "the gospel was not preached for 1900 years" and "the people of England USA and Australia are, unbeknownst to themselves, actually Israelite"...then you are going broke, just as surely as your mother-cult - WCG - went down in flames!
“…. The rants and hissy fits that only Tier 3 HQ Staff were subject to are now spittled on the entire church…”
And that is for ONE reason only: the lack of money coming in. With more and more members leaving, and the members that stay already completely broke, the once wild running money river is drying up..
It will get worse. The less money coming in, the crazier the Packster will get!
(Where’s the popcorn btw?)
Don't put down Mr. Pack.
True Christian are you anon 3:35? We’ll roast Davey for every stupid asinine and false thing he says. No one else will hold him accountable but this blog and most of its users will.
Mark, you seem like a nice person. But try to understand, this is nothing new. Your lengthy testimonials may be true, but I hope you understand that many of us went through all of this and more 50 years ago. 40 years ago. Etc. Dave is nothing more than a blip on the radar. He’s irrelevant except to a tiny group of confused, terrified people who inexplicably followed him even as decades’ worth of evidence warned any who would listen of the dangers of the Armstrongist system and culture. You may think you’re helping others, and perhaps you are, but one can’t help but think the sheer amount of time you spend analyzing all things Dave Pack and writing about them and giving interviews about them is slowly chipping away at your soul. Listen to this, don’t listen to this, it’s up to you: Walk away. Let it go. Stop clinging to meaningless terms and catch phrases and beliefs that were grounded in HWA end DCP and nothing more. Free yourself of this nonsense. Let it go. Trust me, it’s all been dissected and said before. You’re late to the party. There will always be charlatans like Dave. Life is short. Take yours back and live it. These guys just aren’t worth the time and energy.
I disagree, 3:19.
First, a little history. Back in the 1970s, we had John Trechak and Ambassador Reports. John was well connected in the world of Armstrongism as it existed at that time, had many embarrassing facts and intimate knowledge of the unethical and borderline illegal activities of the founders and higher ups of the church as it existed in that day, and relentlessly exposed it all, along with the flaws of the theology. John actually exposed the then emerging Dave Pack for being what he was fairly early on. John dedicated his life to preventing others from having "the Ambassador experience", but he also obtained his law degree during the years in which he was doing that, helped many people, and made many friends. In our circle, he is considered legendary, although he died at a relatively young age.
Others arose with a variety of websites during the late '90s, as the church disintegrated. For those who had not learned the lessons of the 1970s, and who metriculated into the emerging splinter scene, much more research and exposure was presented as an antidote to the error, the corruption, and the failed prophecies and now easily debunkable conspiracy theories which some insisted on continuing, whether for continued paychecks, or because they still believed that HWA was (in spite of all the counter evidence) what he had presented himself as being. Many of those who remained in Armstrongism continued to be abused and exploited by the ministry trained by a corrupt and toxic system.
The early splinter group phenomenon is aging at this point, and if one factors in the original groups (COGE, CGI) which broke away during the mid 1970s, has now existed nearly as long as the first run of Armstrongism under HWA. Members are still being abused, and impoverished, although by smaller groups which are the offspring of the original corrupt system. Somebody is needed to bring this to attention, and to keep it relevant, to show that the Armstrongism, no matter how often it is attempted, corrupts its leaders, and diminishes and ruins the lives of its followers. It cannot be reformed, because it is the founding principles which are largely counter to Christianity, and which dehumanize and desensitize members so that they can be exploited financially and socially to build empires, although the time and date stamp has expired, meaning that fewer people will now buy into it and volunteer to be its victims. In many ways, this is actually worse for members of these smaller groups. The leaders are insistent and demanding because they have a vision of using a smaller number of people to fund a Herbert W. Armstrong scale work and empire.
Leave Marc alone. Let him do what he is doing. He does it so amazingly well, and like so many of us, he's just got to get it out of his system. Far from finding it boring, I am encouraged by Marc's writings because it reminds me of why I left the big mess in my life behind back in 1975. We tend to see less detail in our rear-view mirrors than we do as we scan the panoramic view provided by our windshields. Marc provides us with a reminder by occasionally shifting our attention to our windshields, making it all current and relevant for us once again.
Anon 3:19 AM, there's merit in your suggestion to Marc, but there's one important way in which Dave is very different from HWA.
We have lots of evidence that HWA was never a true believer and that he was in on the con. Coffee and donut before preaching on the Day of Atonement, for example. HWA would never have been part of a Jonestown or Heaven's Gate scenario.
Dave is unstable in a way HWA was not. In fact, scrutiny by people like Marc might actually provoke Dave to some dangerous violent action, either self-inflicted or imposed on RCG members. Jim Jones did the mass suicide after a visiting Congressman traveling with journalists backed him into a corner and he knew he would be exposed to the public. Dave seems much more likely than HWA to react like Jim Jones. If that happens, will Marc be comfortable having that on his conscience? Only he can say.
I agree that Marc is probably spending too much of his personal time on this. But right now he probably can't let go and has to process his experiences. Writing about it helps him process what he went through. Perhaps it will help him to move on, when he is ready.
Dave’s god is an incompetent lying trickster.
Some people think all gods are like that, just playing with our minds, stringing their believers along.
Dude! (10:28). Marc is not responsible for Dave's sociopathic activities by virtue of exposing him! That's all on Dave. If everyone who made an effort to protect people were held accountable for what the perp whom they were warning against did in retaliation, then we'd be a society of wusses, controlled by the sociopaths!
“And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, who shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet roundabout; and I will set judgement before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgements.
“And I will set My jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee. They shall take away thy nose and thine ears, and thy remnant shall fall by the sword. They shall take thy sons and thy daughters, and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire” Ezekiel 23:24-25
Dave Pack: send me all your money or your will lose your salvation!
Well, I never heard Herbert say that, or any minister in his era, or any other minister since. Until Dave Pack. If that's really what the bible says, how did Dave's idol miss that?
As a young boy, when my parents joined, and became immersed in Herbie's cult, the biggest and most devastating difference that it made in my life was that suddenly, I was a spectacle. Everything that I did, or should I say was forced to do, drew attention because it was totally weird.. Not only that, but there was the lack of emotional support and the abuse at home, another new "corollary" which accompanied the weirdness. They had robbed me of my normalcy, and I wanted it back! I worked very hard at achieving normalcy as I mainstreamed once HWA invalidated himself and his entire ministry in 1975. But, I still had more lessons to learn, as I worked towards a more optimal world view.
I had made certain assumptions. Up until my late twenties, I assumed that all black people really wished they were white. It's not true. Some may, just as some white people wish they could be black. Somewhere along the line I met a number of black people who love being black. What's true is, no matter what they may wish about their heritage, all aspire to an existence that is free of prejudice and persecution. I assumed that people who were born gay wished they were straight. Once again, not so. Some really enjoy their sexual orientation. They just don't want to be persecuted and excluded because of it. Last but not least, I had assumed that kooks who are always paranoid and preoccupied with the latest conspiracy theory wished for a tinfoil-free life. Aaannnnt! Wrong answer. Many enjoy that type of existence. It somehow ends up being what gives them their raison d'etre.
So, do Dave Pack's followers wish for a normal life, free of their leader's insanity? I think we just might be wrong in assuming that, too! It may be what we ourselves would think if caught up in that environment, but obviously most of those who remain in RCG and put up with all of the indignities when they could easily be free and leave must actually enjoy their lives under David C.Pack. After all, he's all but taught them that they will be under him for all eternity!
My apologies to anyone I may have offended in paragraph 2. I meant no harm, and please be happy that I learned from all of you! The most challenging people of all to understand and with whom to peacefully coexist are the culties. I truly enjoy diversity, but culties are a radical departure, and a breed of their own. They believe that everyone will one day be exactly like them, and are therefore totally inflexible.
Aren't they all losing it, unhinged and deteriorating ??
Scripture describes it as idolatry of power, Jesus in scripture also condemns idolatry of power in religion.
Whilst Pack is a very easy peasy target for those who run this blog, God's clear contempt for men who are consumed by idolatry of power applies to a far broader audience than Dave Pack.
Think on that.
Micah 6:8
Marc is affecting, (shaking up, rocking the boatboat, causing a loss of income), at the Compound, and someone, (Pack) wants him to call off the dogs...
I don't like what I'm reading about Marc. It's against the law to practice psychology or psychiatry on another person without a government license. Are you reading this 3.19 AM? "Walk away," "let go," "take your life back and live it" etc. You have no right to force yourself on Marc with your unsolicited "advice." You need to mind your own business. If you want to play psychiatrist, do the 8 year course, get licensed, open a store front and have people COME TO YOU.
I experienced this garbage at church. One example, a near stranger came to me and said "about your problem, don't have tunnel vision." What problem?? I hadn't even broken the ice with this meddling fool. People are only entitled to their own life, not other peoples lives.
In my books, Marc is using his talents to do the equivalent of a every day job, and that's commendable.
"..send me all your money.." ~~~ "I never heard Herbert say that"
well, actually, Herbert did kind of say it, so, yeah, that's where Pack gets it from
Marc is exposing the fraud, False Prophet for who and what he is. Marc is attempting to help deceived people see that a fraud and charlatan is destroying their lives. Seems the False Prophet does not appreciate Marc's efforts and will do anything to prevent those efforts. Seems the False Prophet and his little minions are now trying to attack Marc for exposing them. Onward Marc ...
Part One
Have you ever walked into a room and got the sense that people were talking about you? This is just like that, except hushing and changing the subject doesn’t work here. :)
I will address all the comments together, Anonymous. May I call you Anonymous? Are we close enough to use first names? Cool. Hello Anonymous. Thank you for your input.
Anonymous – April 28 12:56 PM
Dave is being worn down by years of failure, so his tolerance level has diminished. The man has admitted how exhausted he is. The man seeping through more into messages is the real Dave. He was always like this behind closed doors and among those in proximity, but he used to be able to edit himself. Whether that is “even so, come Lord Jesus” or money-driven, I am not sure. I think it is a combo. But, he will continue to degrade. The next article about “thank God your family is dead” is a hand-in-glove follow-up to the Tiers article.
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Anonymous – April 28 3:35 PM
“Don’t put down Mr. Pack”
I am exposing Mr. Pack. It is time you recognize him for what he is. Read some of his own literature. Mr. Pack (then) puts down Mr. Pack (now).
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Anonymous – April 29 3:19 AM
Thank you. I like to think I’m a “nice person.” Whether what Dave is doing is new or not, is irrelevant. If a dictator rose up, shouldn’t the people be compelled to call it out? “That ain’t new” is not a reason to let it pass unexposed.
You worry about you and leave the worrying about me to my mother. I gave my life to RCG from December 2012 until March of 2021. Listening to sermons and writing about it is a tiny drop in the bucket of time and effort by comparison. I do this because I am driven to. I want to do it. I like to do it. It brings me peace and joy. Each email from someone who just left fills me. When I receive notices from people I never met that the content of the website “helped” them warms me. It keeps me going. It is why I do it. When I hear from prospective members who back away AFTER seeing the website is also why I do it.
This is a “cause” for me. I do it gladly. Because nobody else will.
Dave is a cancer and has to be addressed so it can stop growing. Warning new people stops the sugar money from feeding the cancer. My impact may be tiny, but if I can help a handful of people through the entire process, then it was all worth it.
“Late to the party” – So, bro…there was no party. Yes, information was getting out before I took this on, but with exrcg.org, there is a concentrated library of information that can now be found organically through internet searches.
Dave is well-worth my time and energy. This is my purpose right now and it will continue as long as God wills.
If you know any attractive single ladies between 40-55, send them my info. Maybe then, Dave would not be worth my free time.
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Anonymous – April 29 10:19 AM
I always feel uncomfortable when folks stick up for me. Especially in a public forum. Thank you. Please do not worry about an unknown commenter cooling my steam. I read these comments and mostly stay silent. I know what I am doing and why I am doing it. I appreciate the support. I am grateful I am “far from boring” because I hope folks can read how much fun I am having. I cried myself laughing yesterday writing the HWA article that is not yet on Banned.
(To Be Continued)
Part Two
Anonymous – April 29 10:28 AM
“Dave is unstable in a way HWA was not.” Wow. You really nailed it. It must burn him up inside that RCG never got to the size and notoriety of WCG. HWA had the sense to back off on dates. Yes, there were some major doctrinal shifts with Pentecost and divorce/remarriage, but I never heard any of you old-timers talk about other doctrine back and forth. I know while the cat was away, the mice loosened standards, but that was against HWA’s direction.
Dave is tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. RCG brethren are asleep. Some few more will wake up.
When I started this, I laughed at the idea Dave would go Jones. I am not so certain any more…
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Anonymous – April 12:59 PM
“I agree that Marc is probably spending too much of his personal time on this.”
How much personal time is acceptable to you? Give me your name and number so we can discuss it. I will make sure to adhere to your standards.
“he probably can't let go”
I do not want to. I was prepared for this task. I cannot see doing this forever. The website is now active as a public record. It is on the internet for people to find. The groundwork is laid. Plus, the website did not launch until the last week in June. It has not even been one year.
Man, I get a kick out of this. Listening to Dave can be draining, but I giggle myself to tears pulling on his pigtails. Hopefully, people are laughing with me. Where else are you going to read about Apostolic Doodie?
“Writing about it helps him process”
Absolutely. This is my process. I just so happen to make my process public and have to accept all that comes with that. Including people who do not know me making judgment calls about what I should or should not be doing. :)
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Anonymous – April 29 1:27 PM
“Marc is not responsible for Dave's sociopathic activities by virtue of exposing him!”
Thank you! Agreed 100%. What Dave does or does not do is not on me. Just as what I do or not do is not on Dave. “Every tub sits on its own bottom.”
If something “bad” happens some day, Brad Schleifer, Edward Winkfield, Ryan Denee, Jaco Viljoen, Carl Houk, Kenneth Orel, Jim Habboush, Andrew Holcombe, Frank Lydick, and Salasi Jezhi would be accountable. They enable the man do wickedness.
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I appreciate the interaction, folks. Bottom lone: do not worry about me. I’m well. I have peace. It is my purpose right now. It will continue as long as God wills. It could suddenly end tomorrow and I do not fret over that. There is a reasonable and natural limit to all things. This, too, shall pass.
Marc Cebrian
exrcgwebsite@gmail.com
Marc writes, "Over the past year Dave has decided who God works with and who will receive salvation".
Dave has no possible way of knowing either of these things because Dave is not a born again, Holy Spirit indwelled man. However, a believer MOST CERTAINLY can know he or she is saved, now, today. 1John 5:13 These things I have written unto you that believe on the Name of the Son of God; that you MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE". There are dozens of other verses that say the same thing, past tense, done at a moment of time, forevermore ours...If we place our trust in what He did on the Cross in our place.
That is the problem with these cults. Armstrongism, SDAs, JWs, Mormons, et al. They either have no Jesus or another Jesus. It is heartbreaking to me as a Christian, to hear people who believe they are practicing "original" christianity, thinking they must do this and not do that and maybe they will "get" salvation at the resurrection or some future life 2.0 second chance. That is as far from biblical as east is from west. If you want to argue the other side of this, have at it, but essentially, you are saying Jesus lied. I died in my sin with Jesus and was raised with Him in newness of life. I will never be judged or condemned. John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes Him who sent me HAS ETERNAL LIFE. HE DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT BUT HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE".
As for Dave's Gnostic knowledge, he is a liar and deceiver. The stereotypical wolf in sheep's clothing, not sparing the flock. He has stolen their money, their peace and joy in this life, and has now even taken away their "chance" at eternal life with God. All because he believed an idiot (HWA) and has no idea how to read and understand the Word of God.
Mr Armstrong was the first Apostle and that Mr. Pack is the second apostle.
How's that working out for you, Dude? It may be fine for a game of mud pies, but it has no basis in reality! Must be nice to just pull an apostle out of your butt!
Mr. Armstrong and Pack were not, nor ever will be apostles, irrespective what they think or say. Mental illness is much to prevalent in the world today and seems to be overly concentrated at the Compound in Wadsworth.
7:06 Love it! Perfect - well written!
pack is saying jesus walks in his flesh. Why is he saying this crazy things
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