Dennis Confronts Dave Pack: "If I Ever Go Off Into Strange or Weird Ideas..."

NOTE:  Due to the ongoing melt down of Dave Pack it has been suggested that this post be reposted.

If I Ever Go Off Into Strange or Weird Ideas...

 "I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you  if I go off into strange ideas,  misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And  I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."

David C Pack

December 12, 1998

Actually Dave, I totally understand what you are saying and just did quote it back to you as instructed.  That time you foresaw has arrived and indeed, you are uttering both strange and weird things about yourself.  If I read all the letters sent to you by former employees and members correctly, you also have tendencies to act in unscriptural ways but I am pretty sure you don't see that side of this coin.  What chance is there you will see the trail of tears you have left for decades when you are struggling to figure out just what "filthy rags" you, as the fulfillment of Haggai's Joshua the High Priest might have to remove.  The idea that all you can come up with is that you sinned not leaving the splinters soon enough or not starting your own church soon enough is...well...a strange and weird idea to say the least

So the time has come to tell you that your current ideas about just where you fit in the Biblical scheme of things has come.  It is time to tell you, as instructed, that your ideas about you being foretold in the minor prophet Haggai or Zephaniah is truly a strange and weird idea.  I have to admit, you do follow the A, B, C and X,Y and Z format in explaining this ridiculous concept as you predicted so at least thanks for sticking to the format so we could recognize it and call you out on it as instructed.

First of all, you have been in "rebellion" for as long as I have known you.  Now I understand one man's rebellion is another man's faithfulness, but let's face it...you have never done well working for anyone that told you what to do.  Men such as yourself simply can't take instructions, correction or advice.  I have chatted with a few of your close staff who confirm that you taking advice is not a strong point.  It tends to enrage you.  I recall your sojourn in New York City where you were sent to work under Mr.___________ as your one last chance to get your team player skills together.  I asked Mr. _________ how you were doing working for and with others but not in charge and not having the final say.  He said you were doing fine for now and what you needed to do to get through it, but when you were ever back on your own you'd fall back into all that you have since fallen back into.  Now that man was a Prophet for sure.  He said, "People don't change much."  And this is true. Some get worse.

The idea that you are foretold in the scriptures some 2500 years after the fact is simply weird and strange.  It is also a lie. You are truly the master of making a scripture mean what it never meant.  From declaring that "houses" in Haggai is really splinters to your nutcase idea that all the tithes of the splinters need to flow unto you because it belongs to you is simply insane.  Ok, I mean strange and weird to stick to your terminology and what we had to look out for in you.   You even have the amount calculated I imagine because you know as well as I do that it has never been about the numbers with you , but it really is.  Remember redrawing church boundries so you could have a larger congregation without actually having new folk come along?  I do.  The minister next door only found out when the member showed him the letter telling him he has been switched to your congregation .  Kinda strange and weird even back then.

 

But back to the current strange and weird ideas.  It was kinda neat to see how you explained that HWA knew he was at first a type of Zerubbabel (which means 'born of confusion" btw) and in the next paragraph he knew he was Zerubbabel and not just any type, and finally ended up not knowing who Joshua the High Priest would be.  Funny, I recall it being plainly GTA according the HWA when he was hoping Ted would get rid of his filthy rags and return to his duties in the church.  Gerald Waterhouse was real big on GTA and the filthy rag theory.  So in a very short time, you evolved HWA's thinking back then to match and pave the way for you now.  Strange and weird huh?   The more bad news is that HWA also was never spoken of in any scripture but I know you'd not believe such a thing.  I mean what's the chance that out of billions, it is YOU?  I hesitate to say that since Haggai was never written for much into the future as you think.  Prophets, real or imagined, sane or insane do not write about events outside their perceived lifetimes.  What good would that be?  I could go back to the Book of Lamentations and see my entire experience with WCG foretold and how I would evolve and endeavor to help the brain dead in the COGs wake up a bit but I don't have the energy.  Jeremiah lived a rather melancholy life so it would be stretching his intent I think. 

Loved your phrase,  ""I want to make a statement about...me..."  Making statements about you has never been difficult .  Once you see yourself in the Bible how can it be any different?.  Of the 24 times the Apostle Paul is referred to as an Apostle, he calls himself one 22 of those and Luke, his side kick, the other 2.  Other than that , no one thought so or at least mentioned it.  Kinda like yourself.  Kinda like Gerald Flurry with whom you have much in common.  The taking of title in the WCG slivers is just short of astounding.  Where do you guys come from?

"I wanna talk about me!"

"No other epistle author in the Bible wrote like Paul. This would be true on a number of levels, but one aspect is of particular interest when we are considering how Paul views himself. He had a way of drawing attention to himself with his usage of personal pronouns. When it comes to how often he uses words like, "I", "me", "my", or "mine", the overall rate in his epistles is almost three times that of his next closest rival."

And so it is with yourself.  Please don't take any comparison with the Apostle Paul as a compliment from me.  Or you don't know me very well on this issue.  

Now I am betting you are saying  "...it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z."   But, we're on to you and this is the very circumstance you said could come up and you told us all just how to react. I am doing you the very favor you begged the brethren to watch out for. 

I am just reminding your, so far, brain dead followers that you said it and that you would do everything in your power to convince them you aren't getting into strange and weird ideas.  Well, you are and you have and it's time to pony up as they say.  

You continued to say concerning youself..." Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it..."  

Well...forget it you have and I imagine you really wish we'd all forget it too just as you said.  I have to say, this prophecy of how you would be and act when you got all strange and weird was really right on.  Since you are incapacitated in memory and bound and determined to see yourself as Joshua the High Priest or whatever as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, it is our job to keep the balance as yours has completely left you.  You can't get upset as you told the brethren to be on the look out for just this kind of deviance from the norm.  And so we do.  

It is not necessary to go through Haggai with you or anyone else to prove that the Bible does not speak of you, you are not any Joshua the really spoken of High Priest and all your detailed analysis of the book is not really what the book was all about.  They don't call it anal--ysis for nothing Dave.  You weave a great yarn, but a yarn it is and it won't take long for it to unwind as did the machinations of the not really the Two Witnesses Ron Weinland or the not really "That Prophet" Gerald Flurry.  Geez...how many times do the WCG leftovers have to learn this lesson?

I drove through Wadsworth this past week and sincerely thought to stop in and have a chat but I was told you'd call the police and I don't have time for that.  I guess you don't want to debate after asking you three times huh?  

At any rate, I thought it was time to quote you back to you as you asked for such a time as this.  Your foresight and insight into how you would behave in such a case of going weird and strange was very well spoken.  I'm proud of you for speaking so plainly before the time of the actual weird and strange beliefs and I am thankful the Internet preserved your prophetic words for so long.  

When you recover your senses, you will thank me.  We can hug and make up because that which was lost will have been found  and your sanity will, like Nebuchadnezzar ,have returned.  I hope it does not take seven years but it is what it is and will be what it will be.  I'm here for ya when your mind comes back. 

In closing, a word about your very last statement.  "But I'm not going anywhere."  I'm a pretty intuitive guy.  I know what people mean between the lines when they write or speak.  "But I'm not going anywhere" is meant to calm the troops after such dramatic statements.  It is actually a subconscious ploy , whether you know it or not, to get to say all this dramatic "don't follow me if I get weird and strange, but of course I will never get weird or strange," so now you can now actually start getting weird and strange and they won't think it is weird or strange..  After all, you just told them how you would behave and then assured them you'd never actually do that and then you get to do it and they don't get it.  Brilliant!  It's like the tassels and ribbons that warriors used to put on the ends of the spears.  In battle they would wave them around and it was just natural for the human eye to follow the pretty ribbon and tassel as it was waved in their face. Well it was pretty until the actual spear point was shoved into one's chest.  Distractions and disclaimers are the tassels and ribbons on the end of a very dangerous spear.  

Anyway...I just thought I'd quote you back to you for such a time as this in your thinking.  I really don't want to see anyone else get hurt with religion done badly and mental problems being mistaken for spirituality and truth.  Was that harsh?

Warm regards


contact Dennis at: denniscdiehl@AOL.com

Herbert Armstrong and his doomsday date setting

Herbert Armstrong gets dragged into this election, and its not by whom you would expect. The writer is correct though in pointing how Herbert's doomsday dates always failed and he to wake up on a new morning, revising it to another date.  That is the same tactic that all of the false prophets of Armstrong's do to this day.  James Malm has to move his dates constantly. Bob Thiel has never been accurate about anything.  Meredith has been an abject failure, as has Weinland, Flurry and Pack.

This view point is from the Trump side of the equation.

Right to left, or left to right? 

JEREMY FOX 15 November 2016

From time to time throughout history, prophecies of doom have warned us of the approaching apocalypse. Most religions have an end-of-days component in which the world as we know it will be swept away, either to be reborn with suitable moral improvements or, as in the Theravada branch of Buddhism, to be finally destroyed in a conflagration.  

Some bold prophets have even ventured to predict the date of our extinction. Pope Sylvester II assured the faithful that they and everyone else would expire on 1 January of the year 1000; while one of his successors, the aptly-named Innocent III settled on 1284. Martin Luther, Christopher Columbus, Nostradamus (Michel de Nostredame), and Isaac Newton, are among the better-known apocalyptic sooth-sayers, Jim Jones and Charles Manson among the most sinister, while New England Puritan minister Cotton Mather and Herbert Armstrong (founder of the Worldwide Church of God) figure among the most indefatigable — happy to revise their predictions when their chosen extinction date passes without incident and they find themselves still alive on the following morning. 

Dave pack: In My Kingdom People Will Be Sent Back To Their Original Nation Boundaries

Dave Pack has discovered a unique way to get all of the undesirables out of the world he is setting up with his creature "jesus" a few years from now.  His "jesus" will set up national boundaries and people will go back to their original nations.  The blacks back to African, the Mexicans back to Mexico, the Indians back to India and the Chinese back to China.  This way Dave can have his lily white Anglo countries, where the pure race will be taught by his "jesus."

According to this illogical thinking there is something he fails to realize consider.  If everyone is sent back to their original nations it would mean almost all Americans, Canadians, Australians, etc. would be sent back to Europe leaving the United States, Canada, Australia, etc. to the original native inhabitants.  However if you want to get even more technical, all of these "original" natives would also have to immigrant back towards the Mideast and Northern Africa where humanity started.   It is going to be one hell of a crowded space!

One of the additional reasons…Now is the time to mention it…Nations live in national boundaries. God always intended that. Judah and the other tribes were no exception. That is part of “all things.” When you restore all things on the earth, one thing you have to do is show the world there are national boundaries…There is commerce and things between the nations, but God did not want His people sharing other religions—“Get the other people out of here! This is My nation. They can stay as long as they follow the exact same way of life.”

Travel in Dave's kingdom will be prohibited.  No tourist travel to see the natural wonders. It is important to keep everyone separated.

From The Greatest Story Never Told, Part 6 

Also, therefore, if you are establishing Judah, you would have to, of course, get all the people to their own national boundaries. Read Acts 17:26. God set the bounds of nations’ habitations. We all understand that. God intended that great oceans or seas, or mountain ranges or deserts, separate the peoples of the earth. Traveling to and fro, today, has allowed people to kind of abrogate that. If you are taking charge of a nation, though, you can’t. That is part of restoring things the way they were. Israel always traveled together, but the twelve tribes each had their own area of inheritance.

Dave Pack: I Walk Around in A Perpetual State of Awe and Astonishment at Myself

Dave is such a superfantabulous person that he is constantly in awe of himself. Does the narcissism of this man know no boundaries?

I don’t care how old you are in the Church and how old you are in this life when trying to understand and come to grips with this, it doesn’t make any difference…Wait until you see what God is going to do to your body so you can do it. Wait to come to understand, even in that one regard, what restoring all things—not just simple healing, but all things—means to you personally. What God would have to do or we could never carry out this world government that is in some ways, initially, with limits. I will show you exactly what those are…to the degree that God lays them out. Now, I wanted to leave you with that.

It is all right, if you just walk around in a state of perpetual awe and astonishment. I do, too—for more reasons. I get to teach this. It is the greatest privilege of my entire life. I could not even imagine…There is not even anything on a list of the greatest things I have ever gotten to do that should be on that list compared to this. It would pale anything else, so it is just awesome!

Dave feels that he is incapable of ever being deceitful!  Dave is also incapable of adding to the word of God.  Personal interpretations can never be held that are not approved by his god.  To do so would make Dave a lair.   Ha Ha Ha!

Of course, I don’t want to handle the Word of God deceitfully. I know what happens to people who do that. I don’t want to add to God’s Word or I will be found a liar. So God knows that He would have to make it clear or His leader…whoever he was, for that matter…in any age, on any doctrine could get it wrong. During this period of our second revolution in understanding, God would have to—because of the sheer size of the ramifications—make it abundantly clear. Then maybe triple that…and that’s what He does, unless it is more than triple.

From The Greatest Story Never Told, Part 6 

4 Million Hits Later as the Church of God Implodes

Who would have dreamed that this blog would have ever had 4,000,000 page views in its short history!

We have watched the slow death of Armstrongism over the last last 6 years since we started playing here in 2010.  We have witnesses together the demolition of the church, both literally and spiritually.  We have watched despots arise after self-appointing themselves after having some nightmares, to men who love to bastardize and worship the law more than Jesus, as we watch others sink further into mental illness.  We even had one narcissistic mentally unstable buffoon threaten to sue us after sicking his babbo lap-poodle in Arkansas on us.  

The felon Ron Weinland prophesied that I would die a painful death. Followers of Neville Stevens threatened to come to Los Angeles so they could personally slaughter me with a sword as they helped their fake jesus kill all critics.  I offered to pick them up at LAX but they wimped out like all their ilk do.

We became the "go to" site for news on the corruption in the Living Church of God.  Rod Meredith even publicly denounced us in a sermon which in turn brought in tens of thousands new hits.  Now Living Church of God members come here for news on the church and to have a safe place to vent about current issues.  LCG HQ mentors this site daily which I think is hysterical.

We have witnessed countless others that have found the freedom of leaving Armstrongism by having a safe space to share their concerns.

We are just one more in a long line of observers, blogs, web sites, books, and individuals that are holding the cult leaders of the Church of God movement accountable for their sheer stupidity. Thanks to Gavin with the Ambassador Watch, The Painful Truth, Silenced, As Bereans Did, Living Armstrongism, and many others. Together we hold the spiritual abusers to the grand stone! If they are dumb enough to say it, we will expose it!

So THANKS Almost Arrested Bob Thiel!  Your bible thumping, crooked bookshelves and self appointed has provided an endless supply of fodder!  You have proven to us what happens when a person takes their self too seriously. Keep it up Bro!  Thanks to the Chief Pharisee and law bastardizer James Malm and his Wiccan side kick!  Blessed Be! Thanks Rod Meredith...your endless obsession of sex and spiritual abuse has been unending!  Thanks Dave Pack! You have single handedly defined what narcissism is to tens of thousands of people who STILL have not joined your cult. Thanks Gerald Flurry for showing us what alcoholism does to ones mental capacities.  Thanks Vic Kubik and UCG as we watch one expensive epic failure after another.   

Above all thanks to the readers and contributors here.  Your experiences and words of wisdom have helped a lot of people!  Thanks to Dennis for leading people to actually use their brains.  

As we saunter into the end times of James Malm and Bob Thiel, we are sure to have much more to post there.  Where would the Church of God be without these liars in our midst?

Dave Pack and the Flat Earth Believers

Armstrongism has always had a fringe element in its midst.  From conspiracy theorists consumed by the Illuminati, Jesusit conspiracies, Protocols of Zion promoters, people fascinated by money guru Gary North, Reconstructionism, to the flat earth believers.  

The Pasadena church HQ, the site of the "pure truth" and home of "original Christianity," was rife with these beliefs.  Top level employees quietly promoted these theories to other church members.  Being that Pasadena was the church HQ, it automatically attracted thousands of raving lunatics who thought they had a direct pipeline to God.  Prophets, sages, apostles, end time witnesses, visionaries, picketers, and others regularly descended upon the campus with their pet theories and "truths."  That lunatic fringe is equally matched in this day by lunatics like James Malm, Bob Thiel, Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry.

One of the more fringe elements in Pasadena were the Flat Earth believers.  That belief still is alive in the Church of God movement.  Of course it has found its base in the more radical groups like the Philadelphia Church of God and the Restored Church of God.

It has gotten so bad that even Dave Pack has had to deal with it.

Unless you make a decision to move to the wrong side of the fire, you don’t ever need to worry about safety or health. If you leave God’s Church, you probably shouldn’t worry about much else. If you don’t want to be part of this, you really should leave. I’m not suggesting anybody doesn’t, but we had people leave this week.

Just to show you how crazy the age is…We have people who left this week, because they’re convinced the Earth is flat! They’ve joined the Flat Earth Society. Do you know how we caught them? They were overheard—overheard. Angry that we have a spinning globe on the World to Come…We were telling a lie to the world that the earth is round. Man…when you call the weak and foolish of the world, that’s what you did! And that’s what God did! I didn’t think anybody could believe that. There is a Flat Earth Society. They’re convinced the moon landing…You ought to hear these people that left…They’re convinced the moon landing is a lie. It’s a hoax. There is no round Moon. The Earth is flat! When it says God sits on the circle of the earth in the Bible…I don’t know what they do with that verse.

Ian Boyne: Jamaican Gleaner article on Trump

Ian Boyne's article is certainly a different view than how most of the Churches of God groups are reacting to the election of Donald Trump as President of the United States.  Almost all COG splinter leaders are reacting to his election as a good thing to bring back credibility that they think was lost under the rule of a gentile President.  That view is deeply entrenched in the British Israelite thought processes and white superiority that is still pervasive in the church in 2016.

The world is a different place than when the church was evolving during the 1940's - 1980's.  Globalization, the internet and world populations immigrating to most Western Nations has led many Church of God groups to proclaim propehtic melt down of civilization and the dilution of the white race.

Ian takes a different approach to this belief, particularly with observations and a perspective that is outside the United States and as a person of color, two things that do not sit well with so many in the church.

Ian Boyne | White  Power  Trumps  Good  Sense

It is not enough to say that Donald Trump's victory is a 'whitelash' against eight years of a black man's being in the White House. It is, indeed, true that Trump's ascendancy as American president-elect is the culmination of the Tea Party insurgency started just one year after Obama's first victory in 2008. White people, particularly marginalised white males, swept away by the tide of globalisation, have risen up to take back their country and to put America first.

No election in American history has left in its wake so much resentment, bitterness, anger, disappointment and fear - not just in America but around the world. Jamaicans at home and in the US are terrified of the consequences of this Trump victory which, they catastrophise, is likely to torpedo their dreams of a better life. Jamaicans, various minorities, and progressive, forward-thinking people are being counselled that "it's not the end of the world," but for many, Trump's victory certainly seems like that.

'Stunning', 'shocking', 'astonishing' are just a few of the adjectives being used to describe the victory that was not seen by pollsters and pundits. Almost everyone had written off Trump. Except the Silent Majority. Yet, hidden in academia were some books that speak plainly about the phenomenon that the media are now widely reporting on after the fact. One book that narrates the crisis of the white working class and its alienation from the elites is Nancy Isenberg's White Trash: The 400-year Untold History of Class in America (2016). Before that, in 2012, the well-known social scientist Charles Murray had published his Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010.

In September, the respected Atlantic magazine did a long piece titled 'The Original Underclass: Poor, White Americans' Current Crisis Shouldn't Have Caught the Rest of the Country as Off Guard as it Has'.

Then there is also Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis (2016) by J.D. Vance, whose views are now being sought belatedly by American journalists to understand what escaped them. But if you want one book that grippingly and comprehensively explains the Trump Phenomenon, you have to get The Populist Explosion: How the Great Recession Transformed American and European Politics. I notice it is now being featured as 'One of the Six Books to Help Understand Trump's Win' and it has been given the thumbs up by the most intellectually astute media host in America, GPS's Fareed Zakaria.

There is a lot of hasty, half-baked commentary being dished out, but this Trumpism deserves a serious and surgical analysis. Yes, white power has been asserted in a most ferocious and aggressive way, and Trump, like all neo-fascists, was able to exploit the fears and anxieties of the majority against "the deplorables". But remember, that's the same country that voted for a black man as president not once, but twice. Barack Obama did better than Trump's opponent among white voters. Did those white people temporarily lose their ingrained racism when they voted Obama? What happened between 2008 and 2016?

In a review essay titled 'The Great White Nope: Poor, Working Class and Left Behind in America', in the November-December issue of Foreign Affairs, which features "The Power of Populism", History Professor Jefferson Cowie says: "Most Americans are optimistic about their futures but poor and working-class whites are not. ... Poor African-Americans who face higher rates of incarceration and unemployment - are nearly three times as optimistic as poor whites". He quotes one economist as saying poor whites suffer from "unhappiness, stress, and a lack of hope" . Says he: "That might explain why the slogan of the Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump Make America Great Again! - sounds so good to so many of them".

 The rest of the article can be read here:  Ian Boyne | White Power Trumps Good Sense