BobThiel writes:
Dear Dennis Diehl
(Bob)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response:
Read your post about me this morning at the Banned by HWA website.
Since I do not always go to that site nor read all that is there, I would have
thought that you would have emailed me if you really wanted a discussion.
(Hello Bob, Thank you for writing. I had looked in the past on your site for a "contact me/us" button and did not find one so would not have known how to get in touch.
I also am in alternative health. I have therapeutic massage practice on the Willamette just outside Portland. Have worked for a decade with chiropractors, and others along the way such as yourself. I live in the neighborhood where HWA lived , worked and got baptized as well as near where Richard and Ted were born.
Also, I suppose my public offer was because you had also taken me into the public arena on your site and the "Apostate former minister...." label didn't help. Just as you, I am not fond of labels and without you knowing my background and such, found my own buttons punched a bit. Apostate would be your definition because I don't believe as you do or did not chose to continue my ministry through all the chaos and upheaval of the 90's and beyond. Almost 30 years of daily ministry in 5 states and 14 congregations was enough. To me, the whole WCG experience was a youthful mistake for which I will pay and pay. I was a very compassionate, easy going and non judgmental type of minister and not beholding to the Armstrongs emotionally through those years due to my growing up Presbyterian and able to think for myself even as a WCG minister. I'm not apostate. I am awake.
I know Rod Meredith, Michael Germano, Gerald Weston and Doug Winnail personally. I went to school with Gerald Flurry (arrogant even then) and Dave Pack.
(Bob)
As I believe you realize, I do NOT demand (nor want) the type of idolatrous
following that David Pack and Gerald Flurry do.
And for that you should be congratulated. Both of those men are classic narcissists with ALL the symptoms and behaviors. Dave is taking his delusions many steps further as he, in my view, is slidding into religious delusions that are not going to end well. He may be classically mentally ill. We'll see. His church is doomed.
(Bob)
While the Continuing Church of God does accept tithes and
offering, unlike those men I have not asked people to sacrifice their funds or
get into debt so that CCOG could construct buildings or make some massive
campus.
I agree, you have not done that at all. Good on ya!
(Bob)
Yet, on more than one occasion, you lumped me together with
them--presumably knowing that I have written articles exposing their errors and
positions.
I have , as has the blog owner at Banned and most of those who go to that sight for whatever personal reasons they have. Money, treating members badly, spending on this or that is not the issue others take you to task for or consider you like them for.
The issue Bob is the taking of titles , out of the blue , for oneself and the reasonings one goes to to come to such conclusions. Flurry is Apostle and Prophet and even That Prophet which is beyond stupid. Dave takes every ridiculous title for every ridiculous reason one can imagine. He just makes it up. You have declared yourself a prophet based on dreams and a "double portion" prayer during an anointing and it for that they take you to task and consider you like Flurry, Pack and Malm along with lesser knowns who also do the same thing.
I won't challenge you on your own impression of yourself but you have to know that to trust in a dream , dreams we all have as the mind processes the day and even our inner issues are not how we should govern our lives. I dream every week of speaking at the feast but don't think it means I should. They feel you simply could not get along with LCG, were not listened to, promoted or given credit for your ideas and with sour grapes walked off , made up reasons you could become a prophet and here you are, yet another sliver of the church. That's what they consider you to be like them for. With 700 slivers all over the world as the debris of WCG, it's an oft told tale
The site watchers and Gary also find your presentations less than professional. If you have some funds, why not put it into making them more credible. I watched , all I could , your "sermon" using the answers from the letter answering dept of yore. Why bother Bob? It makes you look like you have nothing real to say. Those answers are way out of date and to even bother with some you addressed sets you up for ridicule. No one cares about dogs and tithing and many other nit picking topics of the past. Much of those answers are outdated and simply out of context and merely opinions on things no one cares about.
No one cares about dangers of football and what would Jesus watch. They are going to mock you for that. (Football is dangerous but it's not a theological topic and makes you look shallow and petty) No one in the NT fussed about gladiators or the arena down the street and probably did not because it would have been harmful to their survival for going against Rome which you'd not even know ran the show by reading the Gospels, Epistles or letters.
Anyway, I spare you, but if you want more credibility, at least invest a bit your setting and look professional
(Bob)
You also probably realize that I do not take a salary from the
Continuing Church of God. Instead, after paying for expenses related to
proclaiming the gospel (mainly related to literature and videos), the bulk of
our remaining funds go to Africa to reach people there as well as to support the
poor, widows, and orphans.
Excellent. We did all that growing up in our Calvinistic Presbyterian Church. It was what churches of my youth did. WCG only seemed to help out if it benefited them and of course Dave believes helping anyone but himself is just wrong.
(Bob)
Regarding the 6000 years, I presume you realize that I believe in a version
of what is called the 'gap theory' (http://www.cogwriter.com/gap-theory-old-earth-long-days-creation.htm), hence
I do not believe that I have ignored paleontology.
Yes, and I don't believe such things. Good science done well shows the universe to be 14.5 billion years old, earth to be 4.5 billion years old. The issues we could discuss are not so much evolution as that is not either of our areas of expertise, but rather creationism vs science and whether Genesis is literally true or myths with other reasons for being written, which I believe. I see , as do many, no reason to take Genesis 1-11 as anything but myth and those taken from Sumerian creation tales with a Hebrew spin. This is not difficult to show. I have my doubts about the literal existence of Abraham, Moses, the Exodus right up to David and Solomon with those stories including the Pentateuch being written by the established priesthood in the Babylonian captivity etc. Long story but accepted by many to be the case. An acquaintance , Israel Finkelstein, author of The Bible Unearthed gave me some good insights into that when digging at Megiddo of which he was in charge when I was there for a summer. He is one of Israel's premier archaeologists.
You have ignored actual paleontology I think but we can save that for another day.
I imagine you'd defend creationist thinking exactly as Dave Pack did in his almost endless series where he made a fool out of himself and was called out for it on a video rebuttal by Aron Ra, who has the actual background to put such topics to rest. If you have not seen what he did to Dave , you might learn from it if you have an open mind to updated scientific discover of the past 40 years.
You'd not want Aron focusing on you and your "simple four proof against evolution"
(Bob)
As far as Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson goes, are you serious? In all due
respect, he comes across as a zealot to push an anti-God agenda and certainly
not as a scientist interested in the truth. I watched several of his television
programs years ago and my recollection is that I found his 'proofs' sorely
lacking.
Are you serious? If that's how you view men such as him with their background and training, nothing will get through to you. You should update from "years ago" and try again. Your own "proofs" of many things , including your gross misunderstanding of the context and meaning of Isaiah's "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little" shows you won't change in the midst of overwhelming evidence on even this small point. It is NOT a scripture on how to study the Bible . If you have not read the context of it , here is my take on it which reflects that of real theologians well trained.
Could you admit to being wrong about this? If not, can you prove to me why you think it does mean "this is how to study scripture " in Isaiah's mind?
(Bob)
I am a published scientist myself, as you can verify if you go to
PubMed, the US National Institutes of Health's medical
database.
Then you should know better and while you might have a scientific background in one topic or another, you do not have a background in cosmology, paleontology or archaeology as do I not.
(Bob)
, you list in your profile the Banned by HWA website. That
site regularly makes false and misleading statements about me, puts out
headlines about me that are not true, and lumps me in with others in a manner
that is often inappropriate. It needs to cease and desist doing that.
Why don't you write an article explaining what you find wrong and why and send it to me or Gary to print. I am only a guest writer at Banned. It is not my site and I don't control who ceases and desists what.
(Bob)
I would suggest that you work with the people at that site so they
stop trying to mislead people about me and the Continuing Church of
God. If you can do so, then perhaps a more public debate about why evolution is
scientifically-flawed could make sense.
Bob Thiel
Bob Thiel
I'd rather address the topic of biblical errancy, myth vs literalism and New Testament origins and politic. Would love to chat about who Paul is and was and why you can't go with Peter, James and John AND Paul. Each hated the other and did not believe the same things about Jesus. Galatians makes that very very clear. I will say that Paul declared himself in the same way Flurry, Pack and others have taken their titles and ordinations to themselves. That is not a compliment. The Jesus of Paul was a Cosmic, Hallucinatory Christ and Paul had no use for the teachings of the Jewish Christian church under James... Long story, never mind
Thank you for your response . Hope this helps you to get to know me a bit. Remember, I am not an apostate. I am awake
Dennis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Response:
Dear Dennis:
About a 1/2 hour after I sent my email to you, I saw you posted against me again, etc.
*(I posted nothing so not sure what Bob was referring too and it went unexplained.)
I am sorry that you seem to believe that you are beyond "the faith once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).
As far as many of the matters you brought up, I would refer you to www.cogwriter.com as there are articles on many of those topics.
But I will state that dreams consistent with scripture, that are later confirmed (and this includes dreams of others), combined with prayer being answered, is different than simply having random dreams.
As far as presentations go, Moses, Jeremiah, and Paul were not good that way. I try, but recognize that I have limits. God does not always work through the most entertaining presenters.
Bob Thiel
