Why is it that so many "ministers" that run so many of the splinter cults of Armstrongism are all decredentialed ministers? These guys all claim they follow the authority of this thing they call "christ", which to them means top down government, yet as soon as they have lost their preaching credentials they run out and start a new group.
Almost any other Christian minister that loses their credentials will stop preaching. None ever start new churches or start begging for tithe money to be sent in. Why is it that ministers of the "world" actually follow authority while these enlightened ones in the Church of God are in constant rebellion?
Just take a look at Dave Pack's disfellowshipment letter where he was stripped of the right to preach. Yet he continues to pass gas today as if he has something important to say. I find it interesting that those that claim to adhere to the law and top down government are always rebellious law breaking men.
Mr. David C. Pack
4xx Pxxxxxx Rxx
Wadsworth, OH 44281-2376
May 3, 1999
Dear Dave,
In a meeting of the Board of Directors of the Global Church of God, held today in San Diego, with all members present, your relationship with the Church was further discussed.
As you know, the Council of Elders heard charges against you and your response in your own defense. The Council then read to you a judgment which you acknowledged by saying you would accept it and comply with the Council’s decision. That if you found that you could not continue to comply, you would contact the Council before taking any further action.
Subsequent to this meeting, you chose to place a lengthy letter on your website on Sabbath, May 1, in which you made numerous false accusations and continued to sow discord among the brethren. Clearly, you did not "hear the Church" as described in Matthew 18: 15-17. As a result, an ecclesiastical decision, guided by God’s Holy Spirit, has been made to disfellowship you from church membership in the Global Church of God.
This means that you are not permitted to attend or speak from the pulpit in the Global Church of God unless or until your membership is reinstated. Consequently, your ministerial credentials from the Church are hereby revoked. You are not to hold yourself out as a minister or employee of the Church. All property belonging to the Global Church of God which might be in your possession, which would include, without limitation, any membership lists, equipment, computers, etc., should be returned to Global or its agent forthwith.
Your salary will be paid through today, along with accrued vacation time, and the check will be put into the mail today.
The Board wishes to express that we hold no animosity toward you.
Sincerely, in Jesus’ name,
Raymond F. McNair, Chairman
Larry R. Salyer, Director of Church
You can see this letter on the Way Back Machine from Neo's old site: Pack Disfellowhipped
18 comments:
Not unlike a spoiled self-willed little child.
Just reading all those letters about Dave Pack and his Restored Church of God, sends shutters through me. Can't these people recognize what he is?
How can any minister jump on his band wagon and take this jack ass seriously ? With all the material out there chronicling all the rotten things he did to other people, ya think any member or minister would do their research before signing up for Camp Crazy ? (and I don't mean "Summer Camp") more like concentration camp where you are forced to obey all order or you are whipped, spit at, debased and humiliated. Talk about selling your soul to the devil.
I dread the day when something really bad happens in these sick churches like the Ratzmann affair. I think we are in for something even bigger and more disgusting. God help these poor members to wake up before its too late. All I have to say is I hope those abusers in power get what's coming to them.
Pack was disfellowshipped from a church that broke out of a church that also disfellowshipped him -- one that UCG happens to claim to be a continuation of -- which means that Dale Schurter has left what he concluded was the true church to join up with a man who had been disfellowshipped from that church, and now says that the disfellowshipped guy is the continuation of the true church, from which they had all been disfellowshipped, some multiple times.
Whew!
But, of course, we're supposed to LISTEN to such indicisive men. Ha, ha -- no thanks, fellas!
wonderful information. with the exception of really true persecution, a revoking of a credential would really be just that. Pack and McNair going at it back in the day. Pack's first wife was Raymond McNair's brother Carl's sister-in-law. More like "All in the Family" than church of God. When Global split or kicked out what became Living, was Dr. M's credential revoked? Anyway, Pack was just like most of these, all for himself, he saw an opportunity and took it to get a following, lying about 'persecution' to boot.
Every minister I ever met in any denomination will always say their ordination was from God and the church or organization that did it is irrelevant to their calling.
Besides, I know Dave has his signed by HWA so that works totally for him and no one can take that away from him. I don't know if he got a certificate for Watcher, Apostle or Prophet though so he may only be a Preaching Elder to God.
Yes! Based on their own beliefs, you'd think these guys would be in fear of the Lake of Fire as a result of their defying what they had acknowledged, accepted and submitted to as being God's government. Though I always found Pack to be quite annoying, at least I would have respected him if he had only recognized his gift or purpose as relating to the vitamin and health food industry.
We certainly all respect Harry Schneider for the work he does through his gym!
BB
Dennis,
How does that work now that HWA is dead some 26 years, wouldn't that nullify any credentials? Like when a spouse dies, you are freed from your covenant?
If that's true then none of these goon-heads have a leg to stand on. Or is it once a minister, always a minister? If you are defrocked by the Catholic church, you can't minister again. In Dave's case he was double defrocked.
Anyone up for emailing a copy of this letter to rcgtruth@rcg.org and really shove the truth in their face?
BB. The Vitamin business does not have enough room in for the expanding ego of DCP.
M.T.VitaminC
The Vitamin business does not have enough room in for the expanding ego of DCP.
DCP?
Isn't that like some sort of supplement sold in the health food store?
No wait.
Oh.
"How does that work now that HWA is dead some 26 years, wouldn't that nullify any credentials? Like when a spouse dies, you are freed from your covenant?"
Well, it would be God that has to die to break the calling, it would be said. Of course, if God died, we'd not need the credentials.
Now I suppose if God died, and was a COG kinda God, he could put his son in charge so the credentials would still be valid.
The problem is not just the credentials but the fact that COG ministers aren't trained well in Bible realities, origins or issues. They are Bible merely Bible readers who throw in a bit of commentary or use verses to kick start a sermon.
Ron Weinland is a master of this shallowness.
This is the main reason why I left the UCG recently. After witnessing 20 years of broken homes and endless splintering (the latest being COGWA) I thought of Matthew 7:15-20 and concluded that this kind of competitive, factious and pretentious spirit is not only unhealthy, but totally demonstrates that such people do not and could not have God's Holy Spirit! For instance, after sharing with the UCG pastor some differences of opinions I had concerning various doctrines I was told I must submit to the authority of the church administration. IOW I had to do and see things their way even though I disagreed! Yet, the rank hypocrisy of these covetous predators is displayed for all to see when the wretched example they set is not of "submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ" (Eph. 5:21). No, but to seek money, status and a cult following for themselves built around their own privileged personality or their revered HWA. And we're supposed to "submit" to their authority when they can't even do so themselves?!?!
After witnessing 20 years of broken homes and endless splintering (the latest being COGWA) I thought of Matthew 7:15-20 and concluded that this kind of competitive, factious and pretentious spirit is not only unhealthy, but totally demonstrates that such people do not and could not have God's Holy Spirit!
Right. And it's not mentally healthy to be around people with noisy brains and distorted perception.
It's easy to miss that these people may not have the Holy Spirit because they are a triumph of image over substance with a religious flavor of a Corporation made into a Church. There's not much there but the "works of the flesh" and the very picture of II Timothy 3. The noise of constant anger, fear and hyperbole drowns out sanity with news reports distorted to fit false prophecies to give people the hope that's there is something left of their worthless investments to make the ministry and leadership prosperous at their own expense and detriment.
Frankly, 1975 was the absolute end of any kind of possible credibility, but, based on the research of "When Prophecy Fails" by Leon Festinger, Henry W. Riecken and Stanley Schachter, it is obvious why people cling to the sinking Titanic, often rearranging deck chairs when the water is up to their thighs.
Armstrong is a major fail, but the zombie bodies just haven't been buried yet.
In yet further irony, the CoG7 has just published "What We Believe" after building a consensus over five years. As a successful (and relatively peaceful venue except where ex Armstrongist ministers are involved), they have over 300,000 members world wide -- well over twice what the WCG had in it's Hoeh Day (and the days of Hoeh are long over).
Arguably, the so-called "Sardis Era" Church (oh, please!) has more life in it that the entropy filled failing splinters of Armstrongism.
A bit of clarification , the vitamin connection came via the efforts of his very diligent parents. They were, for all appearances, very good and reasonable people, One of their son's suffered from what will be diagnosed as histrionic personality disorder. “sad”
Wess
If you check the link to the original letter on ‘Way Back Machine’, and then follow from there the ‘information’ link, you get an interesting transcript of a section of a sermon from D Pack himself, apparently recorded on December 12, 1998 at the onset of the Global/Living Split, a full year and approximately five months before the Restored Church of God:-
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."
Well, of course he did go somewhere, but maybe the rest of the quote was actually prophetic!
Douglas,
Thanks for mentioning the book When Prophecy Fails.
I just read the Wikipedia pageon it and it sure seems like an interesting read.
Oops, I gotta go.
Alien beings from the planet Clarion are calling.
Later,
Norm
Questeruk: That quote is one of Dave's all time greatest and one that will follow him all the days of his life.
M.T.Speeches
"In yet further irony, the CoG7 has just published "What We Believe" after building a consensus over five years. As a successful (and relatively peaceful venue except where ex Armstrongist ministers are involved), they have over 300,000 members world wide -- well over twice what the WCG had in it's Hoeh Day (and the days of Hoeh are long over)."
I don't think so.
Some rough old guesstimates that come to mind are that the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church has about 17 million members worldwide with around 1 million of them in the USA and Canada.
The Church of God Seventh Day (CG7) has around 5,000 people in the USA and Canada.
It has been said that the CG7 never did a work of its own. They just went to SDA camp meetings and put their little tracts under the windshield wipers of the cars there. The CG7 is so wiped out in the USA and Canada that the few members sometimes attend SDA churches. The stories of their behavior there are not good or peaceful. It is as if none of the COGs (including the CG7)--which think they know more than anyone else--can behave properly.
One story in the past was that the CG7 supposedly had 60,000 people in South America. Now one hears about them supposedly having 300,000 people worldwide. Maybe ask them how they are coming up with those numbers. Also, ask why they have almost nothing in the USA and Canada.
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