The hard facts are that the neither the original ministry of the Worldwide Church of God nor ANY of the resulting leadership/ministry of the splits, splinters and slivers, to this day, were properly trained in theological studies and it shows in everything from exegesis to their Christology. Their hermeneutics aren't all that good either. Men such as Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Rod Meredith and Bob Thiel are "mere Bible readers", as are the members, and are proof texters jumping around the Bible to conjure up their beliefs like the proverbial cat on a hot tin roof. They have no clue that their "here a little, there a little" is not the formula for how to arrive at the message of the Bible.
All of what Gerald Flurry, David C Pack, Roderick Meredith and Bob Thiel believe with regards to their unique selves and their message is simply bogus theology. They all have raised the making of the scriptures mean what they never meant or could mean to an art form and while occasionally humorous , is actually harmful to those they presume to reveal the mind of their God to and dangerous to their members.
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Following is what the basic minister SHOULD have learned before presuming to understand the Bible, it's history, authorship and politic as well as how to pastor people as a
Shepherd instead of a Wolf.
While personally having to cringe when I hear "Embarassing College", I admit it was and is so. I had to spend time unlearning and relearning just how to view the Bible over the decades after my own ministry experience. and reach conclusions in doing so that I wish I had reached much earlier in the game. (Nuther head slap)
Christian Theological Seminary
MDiv/MACMHC Requirements
Download a fillable PDF of this page here.
Requirements: This joint degree program requires 111 semester hours and a cumulative grade point average of 2.7. Students in this degree program will meet educational requirements for ordination (from denominations requiring an MDiv degree).
Requirements: This joint degree program requires 111 semester hours and a cumulative grade point average of 2.7. Students in this degree program will meet educational requirements for ordination (from denominations requiring an MDiv degree).
Upon completion, this joint degree meets State of Indiana academic requirements for licensure as a Mental Health Counselor. It is guided by CACREP standards and the professional orientation of the American Counseling Association (ACA). An approved training program of the American Association of Pastoral Counselors (AAPC), the program also prepares students for certification as pastoral counselors without requiring ordination. Students will also, after completion of a total of at least 4 units of CPE, meet requirements for Association of Professional Chaplains (APC) certification. Many chaplaincy positions, particularly in hospital settings, require both APC accreditation and ordination. While CTS makes every effort to be in compliance with the requirements of specific licensure boards (LMHC, LPC) and professional credentialing bodies (CACREP, AAPC, APC), students must take individual responsibility for monitoring and meeting licensure and credentialing requirements that may change between admission and graduation and may vary from state to state. Students are responsible for such denominational requirements as are required for ordination.
Students are responsible for such denominational requirements as are required for ordination.
Students conclude their degree by completing the requirements for practicum and the X-999B Capstone presentation listed below under “Supervised Clinical Practice”. A criminal background check is required for any student taking the Counseling Practicum.
* = these courses are prerequisites for Practicum
** = course may count only one in MACMHC degree (either B.II. or C.)
*** = course may count once both in MDiv and in MACMHC degree
** = course may count only one in MACMHC degree (either B.II. or C.)
*** = course may count once both in MDiv and in MACMHC degree
A. Studies in Theology
I. Gateway Courses (15 hours) To be taken in the first two years of a student’s M.Div. studies.
Gateway to Theological Education and Spiritual Formation
Gateway to the Practice of Interpreting the Bible
Gateway to the Practice of Interpreting Christian Tradition
Gateway to the Practice of Theological Reflection
Gateway to the Practice of Entrepreneurial Leadership
Gateway to Theological Education and Spiritual Formation
Gateway to the Practice of Interpreting the Bible
Gateway to the Practice of Interpreting Christian Tradition
Gateway to the Practice of Theological Reflection
Gateway to the Practice of Entrepreneurial Leadership
II. The Practices (45 hours)
Three courses for each practice, selected from designated course offerings.
Inspire: Worship and Preaching (9 SH)
___ INSP XXX
___ INSP XXX
___ INSP XXX
Lead: Leading and guiding organizational life (9 SH)
___ P-760 Group Counseling and Psychotherapy (3 SH)***
___ P-657 Contextual Dimensions of Mental Health Counseling (3SH)***
___ LEAD XXX
Serve: Leading and Guiding Opportunities for Mission (9 SH)
___ SERV XXX
___ SERV XXX
___ SERV XXX
Love: Caring for the community (9 SH)
___ *P-511 Counseling Skills and Helping Relationships (3 SH)***
___ *P-531 Human Growth and Development (3 SH)***
___ P-656 Social and Cultural Dimensions of Counseling (3 SH)***
Live: Living and modeling a life-giving faith (9 SH)
___ P-641 Spirituality and God Images in Counseling and Culture (3 SH)**,*** or P-651 Theodicy, Trauma, and Grace (3 SH) **,***
___ LIV XXX
___ LIV XXX
Three courses for each practice, selected from designated course offerings.
Inspire: Worship and Preaching (9 SH)
___ INSP XXX
___ INSP XXX
___ INSP XXX
Lead: Leading and guiding organizational life (9 SH)
___ P-760 Group Counseling and Psychotherapy (3 SH)***
___ P-657 Contextual Dimensions of Mental Health Counseling (3SH)***
___ LEAD XXX
Serve: Leading and Guiding Opportunities for Mission (9 SH)
___ SERV XXX
___ SERV XXX
___ SERV XXX
Love: Caring for the community (9 SH)
___ *P-511 Counseling Skills and Helping Relationships (3 SH)***
___ *P-531 Human Growth and Development (3 SH)***
___ P-656 Social and Cultural Dimensions of Counseling (3 SH)***
Live: Living and modeling a life-giving faith (9 SH)
___ P-641 Spirituality and God Images in Counseling and Culture (3 SH)**,*** or P-651 Theodicy, Trauma, and Grace (3 SH) **,***
___ LIV XXX
___ LIV XXX
Students completing Clinical Pastoral Education (CPE) may apply the six credit hours in one of the following ways: (1) 3 hours in the LOVE practice area and 3 hours in the LIVE practice area; (b) 3 hours in either the LOVE or LIVE practice area and 3 hours in Other Course Offerings; or (3) all six hours in Other Course Offerings.
III. Other Course Offerings (9 hours)
These credit hours may be selected from among those designated under The Practices or from other course offerings.
Select one course from among those designated under The Practices (3 SH)
____ ____________________________________________________
Select two courses from the electives in B.II. below (6 SH)
____ ____________________________________________________
____ ____________________________________________________
IV. Cohort learning (3 hours)These credit hours may be selected from among those designated under The Practices or from other course offerings.
Select one course from among those designated under The Practices (3 SH)
____ ____________________________________________________
Select two courses from the electives in B.II. below (6 SH)
____ ____________________________________________________
____ ____________________________________________________
Supervised Ministry Internship (1 hour)
Students will serve in a one-year Supervised Ministry Internship. Ministry sites will include a range of opportunities—congregations, denominational and judicatory settings, and community agencies—and provide students with a breadth and depth of experience in the particularities of that ministry site and its context.
Students will serve in a one-year Supervised Ministry Internship. Ministry sites will include a range of opportunities—congregations, denominational and judicatory settings, and community agencies—and provide students with a breadth and depth of experience in the particularities of that ministry site and its context.
Those pursuing ordination should consult their ordaining body to determine if additional years of Supervised Ministry are required.
Cohort learning (2 hours) Students will participate in a cohort group every semester at CTS. Studies in Clinical Mental Health Counseling
B. Studies in Clinical Mental Health Counseling
Courses marked with an asterisk (*) are prerequisites for practicum.
Courses marked with an asterisk (*) are prerequisites for practicum.
I. Core studies in Clinical Mental Health Counseling
___ *P-510: Theories of Counseling, Psychotherapy, and Personality (3 SH)
___ *P-511: Counseling Skills and Helping Relationships (3 SH)***
___ *P-531: Human Growth and Development (3 SH)***
___ P-632: Foundations of Mental Health Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-635: Ethical and Professional Issues in Clinical Practice (3 SH)
___ *P-637: Psychopathology and Assessment (3 SH)
___ P-639: Testing and Appraisal (3 SH)
___ P-656: Social and Cultural Dimensions of Mental Health Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-657: Contextual Dimensions of Mental Health Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-675: Career Development and Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-760: Group Counseling and Psychotherapy (3 SH)
___ P-770: Research Methods (3 SH)
___ *P-510: Theories of Counseling, Psychotherapy, and Personality (3 SH)
___ *P-511: Counseling Skills and Helping Relationships (3 SH)***
___ *P-531: Human Growth and Development (3 SH)***
___ P-632: Foundations of Mental Health Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-635: Ethical and Professional Issues in Clinical Practice (3 SH)
___ *P-637: Psychopathology and Assessment (3 SH)
___ P-639: Testing and Appraisal (3 SH)
___ P-656: Social and Cultural Dimensions of Mental Health Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-657: Contextual Dimensions of Mental Health Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-675: Career Development and Counseling (3 SH)
___ P-760: Group Counseling and Psychotherapy (3 SH)
___ P-770: Research Methods (3 SH)
II. Specialized Studies in Clinical Mental Health Counseling \=
___ P-630: Psychoanalytic Theory & Technique (3 SH)
TWO electives from the following four areas*** - 6 counted in A.III. Social justice, choose P-619, P-633, P-638, P-641, P-650, or P-651; Psychodynamic, choose P-633, P-640, P-641, P-644, or P-739;
Spiritual integrated counseling, choose P-633, P-634, P-638, P641, P-644, P-651, P-739, or P-800, 801;
Couples, marriage and family, choose P-520, P-525, P-619, P-621, P-623, P-711, P-774, or P-775
___ P-520: Introduction to Marriage & Family Therapy (3 SH)
___ P-522: Introduction to Marriage & Family Therapy Practice (3 SH)
___ P-525: Aging and the Family (3 SH)
___ P-619: Sexuality, Gender and Culture (3 SH)
___ P-623: Couples Systems Therapy (3 SH)
___ P-633: History of Healing (3 SH)
___ P-634: Theological Perspectives on Pastoral & Spiritual Care (3 SH)
___ P-638: Religion, Medicine and Pastoral Care (3 SH)
___ P-640: Transference and Countertransference (3 SH)
___ P-641: Spirituality and God Images in Counseling and Culture (3 SH)**
___ P-644: Dreams and Discernment (3 SH)
___ P-650: Treating Addictive Behaviors (3 SH)
___ P-651: Theodicy, Trauma, and Grace (3SH)**
___ P-711: Children and Adolescents in Families (3 SH)
___ P-739: Freud, Jung and Religion (3 SH)
___ P-774: Psychodynamic Family Therapy (3 SH)
___ P-775: Short-term Family Therapy (3SH)
___ P-800, 801: Clinical Pastoral Education I (6 SH) (Students electing P-800, 801 must complete it before beginning P-820 Practicum.)
C. Integration of Spirituality and Clinical Mental Health Counseling P-641: Spirituality and God Images in Counseling and Culture (3 SH)**,*** or P-651 Theodicy, Trauma, and Grace (3 SH)**,*** - 3 counted in A.II. = 0 SH Supervised Clinical Practice (15 hours)Spiritual integrated counseling, choose P-633, P-634, P-638, P641, P-644, P-651, P-739, or P-800, 801;
Couples, marriage and family, choose P-520, P-525, P-619, P-621, P-623, P-711, P-774, or P-775
___ P-520: Introduction to Marriage & Family Therapy (3 SH)
___ P-522: Introduction to Marriage & Family Therapy Practice (3 SH)
___ P-525: Aging and the Family (3 SH)
___ P-619: Sexuality, Gender and Culture (3 SH)
___ P-623: Couples Systems Therapy (3 SH)
___ P-633: History of Healing (3 SH)
___ P-634: Theological Perspectives on Pastoral & Spiritual Care (3 SH)
___ P-638: Religion, Medicine and Pastoral Care (3 SH)
___ P-640: Transference and Countertransference (3 SH)
___ P-641: Spirituality and God Images in Counseling and Culture (3 SH)**
___ P-644: Dreams and Discernment (3 SH)
___ P-650: Treating Addictive Behaviors (3 SH)
___ P-651: Theodicy, Trauma, and Grace (3SH)**
___ P-711: Children and Adolescents in Families (3 SH)
___ P-739: Freud, Jung and Religion (3 SH)
___ P-774: Psychodynamic Family Therapy (3 SH)
___ P-775: Short-term Family Therapy (3SH)
___ P-800, 801: Clinical Pastoral Education I (6 SH) (Students electing P-800, 801 must complete it before beginning P-820 Practicum.)
___ P-820, 821, 822: Counseling Practicum I (9SH)
___ P-823, 824: Counseling Practicum II (6 SH)
___ P-823, 824: Counseling Practicum II (6 SH)
D. Supervised Clinical Practice (15 hours)
___ P-820, 821, 822: Counseling Practicum I (9SH)
___ P-823, 824: Counseling Practicum II (6 SH)
___ P-820, 821, 822: Counseling Practicum I (9SH)
___ P-823, 824: Counseling Practicum II (6 SH)
Personal Counseling – All students are expected to receive psychotherapy during their program. Weekly personal therapy is a prerequisite for practicum admission. Personal therapy with a gifted clinician assists student therapists in working through problem areas in their own lives that may adversely affect clients and their own participation in an emotionally challenging training program; it provides a unique training experience that helps students understand the process of exploring the depth and interrelationship of intrapsychic and systemic features of human life.
Requirements for Admission to Practicum for MDiv/MACMHC students – Students can apply for admission to practicum after completing P-531 Human growth and development; P-637 Psychopathology and Assessment; P-510 Theories of Counseling, Psychotherapy, and Personality; and P-511 Counseling Skills and Helping Relationships. Further, MDiv/MACMHC students must complete on year of SCOF before applying for practicum.
Students are accepted for practicum based upon successful completion of role plays as a screening process. Concerns that arise during these role plays may be addressed through additional evaluation as determined by the counseling faculty and clinic director. Entering cohort groups are normally limited to four persons for summer and six students for fall and spring. Priority is given to students who have the greater number of completed semester hours. Practicum admission is based on limitation of the cohort group due to available supervision in order to provide a conducive learning environment. Beginning with the entering counseling classes of spring 2012, all MA counseling students will be required to enter practicum no later than the fourth semester of coursework.
Students are accepted for practicum based upon successful completion of role plays as a screening process. Concerns that arise during these role plays may be addressed through additional evaluation as determined by the counseling faculty and clinic director. Entering cohort groups are normally limited to four persons for summer and six students for fall and spring. Priority is given to students who have the greater number of completed semester hours. Practicum admission is based on limitation of the cohort group due to available supervision in order to provide a conducive learning environment. Beginning with the entering counseling classes of spring 2012, all MA counseling students will be required to enter practicum no later than the fourth semester of coursework.
Counseling Practicum Requirement – Complete 400 hours of direct service to clients of clinical mental health counseling, which includes a minimum of at least 10 hours group work, and receive at least 100 hours of individual and group supervision in practicum, with at least 50 hours of that supervision based on video tape, audio tape or direct observation. Note: The 400 hours of direct client-contact hours fulfil the 1,000 hours of supervised clinical experience requirement of Indiana State licensure for the LMHCA and LMHC and fall into three portions: the first 40 direct service hours to clients fulfill the 100 hour “practicum” on the licensure application and correspond to P- 820; the next 420 direct service hours fulfill the 600 hour internship on the licensure application and correspond to P-821, P-822, P-823; the last 120 direct service hours to clients fulfill the 300 hours advanced internship on the licensure application and correspond to P-824.
E. Integration and Competency Assessment (0 SH)
___ X-999B: Self, Countertransference, and Spirit, culminating in a Capstone Presentation and a 12-15 page integration paper in preparation of the Capstone Presentation.
___ X-999B: Self, Countertransference, and Spirit, culminating in a Capstone Presentation and a 12-15 page integration paper in preparation of the Capstone Presentation.
Requirements for Capstone – Capstone is normally taken the fifth semester of practicum. Students must have completed 280 hours of client contact hours prior to taking the Capstone. Course authorization is required.
29 comments:
Apologies ahead of time for some of the formatting. Something would not cooperate with me in the fonting. Perhaps Gary can adjust it more reasonable for me. Didn't take that class either! :)
Ambassador College was nothing more than a frat high school for adults with no real in depth academic education... more like a finishing school where you learned that appearances were much more important than substance; founded by a short fat uneducated man with the hubris to believe that he knew more than anyone else without a bit of qualification, had no ability to plan, had low foresight (as his prophecies plainly show), appeared to be much more than he was through bluff and bluster.
Ambassador College was transformative, making incompetent people believe in their own prowess and superiority to be able to lord it over people who in the real world wouldn't give them the time of day.
Results count.
All of them negative in this case.
Total waste of time (money and effort).
The upside is that if you can find the niche, you can live on with distorted perceptions, totally mental, with people who believe the same as you do (sort of, don't push it) and probably highly regard you because you have an Ambassador College degree and they don't, which gives you so much more credibility on these types of forums because you were there and the rest of us cannot even begin to imagine how superior you are for having been.
One other thing: Ambassador College impairs hearing.
Those who attend become hearing impaired and cannot hear or understand people who have different ideas from them.
Dennis:
Since you were an ordained minister, you therefore can ordain someone else as well, right?
Only someone that has a "provenance" through the line of Armstrong are legitimate ordinations is the apparent reasoning. Ok, I volunteer ! ORDAIN ME! I want to be the first FEMALE APOSTLE of THE COG!
Since I don't want to fly all the way to Oregon from New Hampshire, you can simply send me an "ordination cloth" , similar to the old "healing cloths" that WCG used to use. I will faithfully use it on myself according to your careful instructions and on any body party you request.
One of the biggest failures that the church did towards its members and ministers is that they provided NO legitimate training in counseling. The ministry were never proper counselor's, especially when it came to confidentiality. Many was the time I heard Robin Webber, John Kennedy and others laughing in the hallway of the Hall of Ad after people had come in for counseling. Nothing easy private. The tithing records were open to far to many to look at. Plus, every letter or piece of communication that a member had with HQ was recoded in a file and was accessible. Every counseling session and incidents of gossip towards people was recorded. The church had no privacy boundaries, even though they publicly claimed they did.
You are way too late Connie. Laura Wienland is not only a minister but an apostle and one of the two end time witless witnesses.
I can start printing some of those ordination certificates up. I have some of the original parchment paper these were printed on. Who wants to be ordained? If Bob Thiel can "ordain" himself, we can do it too! Would someone just dream a dream...
My naive 18 year old self actually thought it was a "seminary" which is what I thought I wanted . I had turned down acceptance at Roberts Wesleyan Seminary in NY to go to AC. AC classes were a joke in hindsight. The Harmony of the Gospels class taught by RCM was merely his giving sermons on wherever we were in the Gospels. He knew NOTHING of their origins, errancy issues, politic and even the correct order and why it was the correct order. I'm sure he thought them eyewitness accounts like they were just reporting the news.
Survey of the OT was just more reading the OT and commenting. Epistles of Paul were just reading them with no understanding of which were really written by Paul, which weren't and why or why not. Of course, they never got the theology of them correct either because that was set from on high. Second Year Bible , the one Dave Pack claims taught him all about evolution and the flood "50 years ago" was all about a dumb ass book entitled "The Genesis Flood" written by Witcomb and Morris who had no real credentials and were simply apologists for literalism as well. I cringe today at the misinformation of that class just as I do over such light weight concepts as GTA's "A theory for the Birds" and "A Whale of a Tale." etc. Doug Winnail, who actually has a doctorate in the biological sciences taught 'Chemistry" and my HS chemistry class was more interesting and was actually about chemistry. His was about how great a chemist God was. Arrrrggghhhhhhh!
Dr Hoeh made a once a week appearance on a Sunday morning for "Biblical Archaeology" class at which he just started talking giving no real hint at either what he was talking about, where he got his information or what time period he was covering.
I did skip studying for an music appreciation class final, in lieu of a trip to the mountains and got a 100 anyway with a combination of good guesses and years of hearing Presbyterian hymns and knowing their background already in place.
Once, and once was enough, GTA stopped in the middle of a sermon to yell "If you don't like it here you can just leave!!!" while staring at me in a crowd of 1000 or so. I was oblivious to it at the time until taken to his office where he asked me if I knew he meant ME at services and why did I hate him. Later, much later, I realized he was a bit paranoid over what I might know as evidently we both were dating the same girls.
I used to go study over at the library at Fuller Theological Seminary a few streets away since the AC library didn't actually have any good books on theology. I wish a faculty member there had spotted me and talked some sense in me then....
Don't sweat it. You can google all kinds of organisations which will ordain you, including the humanist (I have one of those) and atheist organizations (have one of those too). Many of them are free. There's an aura to "authority" that is pretty much an illusion. Anybody can claim it, and anybody can reject it. So far, it's still a free country.
Allen C. Dexter
All that to say I have made peace with my own past and the years and time lost to religion when in my heart and soul paleontology and geology would have better been my course in life. When I first heard the term "Embarrassing College" it cut me to the bone but I knew it was so in the perfection of 20/20 hindsight and growing up.
I did make some good friends but church friends come and go as well we know. I don't have a lot of regrets over how I treated anyone nor advice or counseling I gave. My upbringing and practical self allowed me a certain distance between myself and the AC/WCG mentality. I did not grow up in WCG nor did I attend a local church until after I had gone to AC and then only when I went home to NY to visit. I kept reading and thinking outside the WCG box all my life which at least served me well in the end.
I strongly suspect that no matter what other seminary I may have gone to, either the other one I was accepted at, or Calvin College in Michigan or Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia which was my home church schools of choice, I would have had the same "dark night of the soul" and mid life crisis I did . The only difference would have been that those places may have been more open to guiding one through it and may have even had classes on the perils of the ministry, burnout and "what do I do when I believe something to be true you did did not teach me nor would like for me to know"...class.
The every three year cycle of scandal and upheaval from 1968-1998 provided by WCG was about all a man could stand in ministry and yes, I held out too long. Way too long.
It was both Embarrassing College and Embarrassing Church
Dennis, I enjoy your posts and comments on this forum. You are obviously (to me) a thoughtful, rational and intellectually curious person. Likewise, your comments (even those which are sarcastic/facetious or otherwise humorous) almost always feel honest and sincere. I agree with your observations about the way ACOG ministers and lay people "study" the Bible. I also find myself in agreement with your conclusion that this way of reading things into Scripture almost always results in error (often dangerous error).
Having said that, I must confess that I've always found the college/seminary model for training a Christian ministry to be wanting (Worldwide Church, Southern Baptist, United Methodist, or fill-in-the-blank). From the records that we do have (the Bible included), it is apparent that the disciples, apostles and ministry of the Church founded by Jesus Christ did not attend special schools, colleges or seminaries. Moreover, it is also apparent to me that most of those folks were mature individuals who had some life experience under their belts. And, if we look at the Scriptural statements attributed to Christ and Paul, it is also clear that the folks in these positions were expected to be people of exceptional character (held to a higher moral standard than their brothers and sisters in the faith).
Once again, I wish to reiterate: I am not anti-intellectual. I attended college. I have two degrees and have done graduate level work (all in accredited institutions). I accept the findings of science (evolution, physics, biology etc. - I too love paleontology). I believe that we were meant to explore and to go wherever that journey takes us. Nevertheless, as I have said in times past, I believe that Christianity was originally intended to be a spiritual experience - one that is based on love and service to others - NOT an intellectual pursuit/exercise in the same sense that we approach the other disciplines mentioned above. If it is approached in that way, I believe that it invariably loses its power and its ability to transform lives.
The program was created for "calling" types, young people who would "halt and catch fire", cease and desist from all previous interests, and be filled with a missionary zeal to get the Armstrong gospel out to a world they painted as dying. "Grasping the magnitude of your priceless opportunity and calling" was constantly hyped.
As for young people who literally began wishing they had never been born upon first hearing the Armstrong "gospel", those who went to Ambassador College to escape horrible violent abuse at home and the spectre of Vietnam, success was somehow never within reach, or even relevant. The good news was that in the long term scheme of things, it really didn't matter, because it was total garbage and on so many levels.
Good cooling off place for late youth to early adulthood, though, and we had plenty of good times in spite of them.
BB
Gary, I would like to be ordained, please. Maybe I can do a few weddings or funerals now that I am retired. Can you back date it to June 7, 1970? If not that's ok.
Glenn Parker
Black Ops Mikey wrote:
"Ambassador College was nothing more than a frat high school for adults with no real in depth academic education... more like a finishing school where you learned that appearances were much more important than substance;"
...
"The upside is that if you can find the niche, you can live on with distorted perceptions, totally mental, with people who believe the same as you do (sort of, don't push it) and probably highly regard you because you have an Ambassador College degree and they don't, which gives you so much more credibility on these types of forums because you were there and the rest of us cannot even begin to imagine how superior you are for having been."
That's strange to hear, Mikey, because I don't think I've read a single post on this forum where an AC grad even hints at anything other than regret from attending AC.
I also say that as one myself, and very clearly aware what a waste of time it was. Everything you say in your first paragraph is true. It was all appearances, and a huge waste of time. Any benefit obtained from an AC "education" was purely coincidental - i.e., friendships forged or tangential opportunities gained. (In my case I lucked out by happening to meet certain people during my time there that help change my direction in a positive way.)
The curriculum and content taught there was 99.9% bullshit, all geared toward making you "act a like a leader", whatever that was supposed to mean. They kept you in a constant whirl of activities, performances, obligations and that constant, constant, constant nonsense of having to set an example and act "ministerial", and of course deference to authority. Testing time was a pathetic joke not worthy of any serious mention. The only class worth anything at all was perhaps Richard Page's on OT history where you might have gleaned some insights about the ancient Middle East.
I can't imagine anyone being proud of being an AC grad - as for me, where I am I've done all I can to push it under the rug and to place emphasis on any and all education I've managed to obtain *after* having graduated. An AC certificate of graduation is one of the more worthless pieces of paper that a person could own.
Gary, I too would like to be ordained. I will start my own church called The SwappingDude Church of God. I will use it to spread the gospel of swapping.
Believe it or not, Michael, this came up on the old Planet Alumni Forum probably ten or more years ago. They had a higher percentage of pro-armstrong posters on that forum, and I was actually astonished to read some contributions by people who still apparently felt that their AC education had not only pretty much prepared them for life, but also had put them ahead of the curve on their career paths.
It's difficult to know what their frame of reference might have been. Also, it is painful for people to acknowledge or admit that their education or life has had no meaning. Some of these forum folks, the way they expressed themselves, one would have thought they had graduated from an ivy league university. I was shocked, because I knew the struggles some of the graduates were going through in the early '70s just to find jobs. In fact, although I only attended AC for two years, I was earning a higher level of income than most of my classmates who had graduated, and I didn't have a college bill.
So, there are people out there who haven't a clue about the valuelessness of an unaccredited degree in a small college that deals mostly in apologetics. If they are still missing that today, it is certain that they wouldn't have even thought about most of the points Dennis raised while they were actually attending AC.
BB
9.04 PM
After reading yours and similar posts, I still wonder whether I should have gone to AC in the 1970s myself. The problem I find with your assessment is that it ignores the alternative of not having gone to AC. Many peoples lives are bland after leaving high school, resulting in limited social experiences and development. Many of these people would love to have had a 'constant whirl of activities.' I believe you experienced much at AC, the benefits that you just take for granted. I for one, treasure many of my social experiences I had during various feast of tabernacles. I know many people on the outside, whom never had similar experiences. Again, you are taking so much for granted.
Miller/BB My all wise hindsight (that's a joke) tells me no one should be given a church to pastor right out of college etc. Even the Gospel story has Jesus being "about 30" with a lot of historical fuss over what Jesus did or didn't do before that.
When I left AC to first get a bit more experience in Minneapolis and then Chicago, I was told "for you...the sky is the limit" by a faculty person who had been on the manpower committee etc. I thought it not only an odd comment , even then, but counter to my perceptions of ministry . I didn't know ministers could have only the sky as the limit. I would have preferred he said the Cosmos, but we don't have to go there. :) I cringe now being 23 at the time with my first church and then 24 with two in Ohio. It was thrown into the furnace of ministry and on top of that it was the early to late 70's where all hell was breaking loose with GTA and then the receivership. I got fired in Chicago because of guilt by association with Ken Westby's East Coast Rebellion. (My boss there and he were buds) and then sent to Ohio after getting unfired. I wish I had stayed fired but that's another story.
Anyway, ministry isn't for kids and BB you are correct. Most of the topics on the seminarian course listing were not even heard of nor would they have had the people to teach them.
As for no the no formal education of the disciples etc, that would not wash in today's complicated society and roaming around the country with Jesus is not the same as figuring out what to do with congregations, people and issues that followed as witnessed by all the issues in the Epistles. And Ian of Jamaica, the Gospels aren't eyewitness accounts and Galilean fisherman who only spoke Aramaic for the most part and not even the higher form of Hebrew did not write the four gospels in the impeccable Greek we find them written in. Just sayin' :)
...church is useless, it's like looking for a woman who has never even been born!
Excellent posting BB.
I was there with you for about 6 years.
Hundreds of positive experiences.
Some alumni turning out to be Secretary of Education and technology of the third economic power of the world others hauling frozen dogs from trucks. Some in internet and telecom careers others in legal careers.
I liked Planet Alumni alot. Lots of negatives but mostly positive. And always feisty discussion. I especially liked the contributions of the monitor who was never associated with ac.
nck
Yeah, Planet Alumni was a nice forum. I remember some musicians, a cage fighter, a conspiratorialist, some people who were in administrative positions in UCG, a few motorcycle enthusiasts, and some nice ladies. What ever happened to that forum? Did it just fade away?
BB
Yes BB exactly,
You remember me. I was the conspiratorialist. Hahahah. No, I wasn't. There were many different characters there. Gays promoting the Auditorium. Secretaries engaged in the sad activity of the sale of their alma mater to Hobby Lobby. Canadians having returned to their original Catholic faith. Process engineers from Silicon Valley and people starting their career in mortage, insurance and banking just 5 years before that system collapsed. Their experience in seeing systems collaps would interest me very much. I have that in common having seen political systems collapse. And they all were at least 14 years younger than today. harharhar.
The advertising model did not work for PA. So most of the hundreds of members transferred to another forum monitored by the sister of a guy who played chess with Fisher as a kid at Imperial.
Actually she didn't monitor it at all and people started having children and grow into responsible jobs and then the final straw was that a guy named Zuckerberg started quite another forum with limited privacy, so any of the harsher conversations stalled.
Most networks of WCG are still intact. There are groups for nearly every activity WCG engaged in and on Facebook people have hundreds to thousands of contacts from the past.
Most conversation is extremely polite nowadays since facebook does not allow for the rougher type of contact that incognitoes have amongst each other.
Actually at the time I was posting more about the morality of US business practices and I was harshly attacked at the time. Well unfortunately the crisis proved me right in 2008 as I had read the signs since 1999. I was very much put off by the comments after I pointed out how the system worked. But I enjouyed the reminiscing about "the good old times." Just as much as I enjoy your "working shed" stories.
nck
As sub prime as it was, I'm still thankful for my college education. It broke the cycle my branch of the family inherited through my illiterate dyslexic great grandfather whose two bothers became millionaires in the newspaper and printing machine field. Without Ambassador college, I'd probably be eking out an existence on reduced social security as a retired and worn out old rancher. I learned to write and do a bit of research that has since stood me in good stead. My advice to all is to make the most of whatever situation you find yourself in and never give up. When you find you made a basic mistake, do whatever it takes to correct it and still make the most of your situation.
Allen C. Dexter
What has helped me to have such a good life, Allen, is that I spent it compensating for all of the good things (my passions) that I was deprived of by the church, the college, and my family. I'd guess that there are any number of others who have applied that same cure, cramming everything they possibly could into life.
Unfortunately, from what I've learned over the past several years, the solution which I inadvertently fell into creates a person who is into his own needs so much that it makes him insensitive to his children's needs and nurture. That is much the same as happens with a parent who is vigorously working an Armstrongism type program in his life. So, both perpetuate a cycle that can go unbroken for generations.
Basically, we own our life's experiences. At best, we can try to correct the problematic areas in our own flawed ways, and aspire to pass along better things than were passed to us. But, life is a painstaking process for just about everyone. Probably if Armstrongism hadn't been the big negative that it was, there would have been something else.
BB
You're right, BB. All lives get messed up to one degree or another in so many ways. We don't come into this world with an operating manual. We have to find our way, and that gets a bit messy at times. And, please don't try to tell me that the Bible is an operating manual. It has some good advice and principles here and there amidst all the myths and false history, but so did Poor Richard's Almanac and the prolific writings of Mark Twain, etc.
Allen C. Dexter
Allen C. Dexter said: "And, please don't try to tell me that the Bible is an operating manual."
It is The Anarchist's Cookbook on how to rule your fellow-man!
God told me, so?
DBP
I want to enlarge upon what I just said. It's a great mistake to set one set of writings aside as the all important "go to" for everything with little or no critical thinking involved. It is true in all groups and all societies, whether its the Bible, Quran, Mein Kampf, the Bhagavad Gita, etc. that is your all important "go to" for guidance. Everybody has the responsibility of doing their own thinking and evaluating in establishing their own moral code and philosophy of life. Setting one source as asuperstitiously regarded infallible and unquestionable source is a huge mistake. Especially when just a little careful annalisation would soon blow it completely out of the water (seven day creation, worldwide flood, an exodus and conquest of Canaan that never happened, a Jesus never once mentioned in contemporary historical writings despite supposed astounding miracles, etc., etc.).
Allen C. Dexter
I like to use the ones that work, and I will set aside the ones that don't.
Kind of like the instructions on a bottle of shampoo.
1. rinse
2. lather
3. repeat if necessary
DBP
DBP, you reminded me of the instructions GTA must have read in whatever sex manual he consulted:
1. in
2. out
3. repeat if necessary
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