Every once in a while we have Armstrongites pop on here all messed up because people are criticizing different leaders or the church as a whole. They just cannot wrap their brains around the fact that many people were abused in the church and are now not afraid to speak out about their abusers. In their minds, everything has always been rainbows, unicorns, and cotton candy. First century love is the only thing they ever experienced, at least in their minds.
The latest one is from the thread with the memes from a PCG survivor.
What say ye?
Anonymous said... They say, There are no victims only volunteers. So, stop complaining all of you! You deserve every bit of everything you had ever experienced in Armstrongism. It's not like someone kidnapped you, it's not like it's a human trafficking, you wanted it, you took it, you enjoyed it, so why the heck are you complaining now?
Leopold CM
30 comments:
Text book blame the victim statement. The writer should read up on abusive cults. People for instance, do not knowingly join abusive cults. Rather they join groups which turn out to be abusive cults.
It was my observation as a member, that to abusive personalities, the church was home sweet home. They got away with mistreating others by hiding behind the ministers skirts. They typically pronounced the word church in reverential tones. Quite understandable.
I understand his point, but I also understand that some people believed on the basis of what they were told. If I buy a used car because the seller tells me that it's in great shape and it turns out that the doors are filled with sawdust to stifle the rattles, it might not be fair to answer my buyer's remorse by saying it was my choice.
On the other hand, most of us had plenty of opportunities to check to see "if these things were so." We often chose not to. If you check your brain in at the door, you live with your choice.
All of us have experiences we would prefer had not happened, but it is happier to accept the fact and be thankful for what we have rather than complaining about what we missed. No matter what injustice life has dealt you, you have what you need in your here and now to be happy. A problem is only a problem when you are thinking about it.
This is certainly something I’ve thought about, and, yes, I’ve applied the Get Over It cliché to certain groups. Yes, this did happen in the past, and I feel I got over it. So what are we doing here?
The problem may have gone, but it still exists. It’s like a shoddy product that got people were hooked, proved to be a scam, and yet it’s still being manufactured, but has fewer buyers.
So, what are we doing here? For me, it’s not revenge, but a chance to share experiences with others who “were sold a bill of goods”; to warn others caveat emptor; to troubleshoot the current versions of the “product” hoping the vendors will fix their shoddy practices and merchandise.
"They say, There are no victims only volunteers. So, stop complaining all of you! You deserve every bit of everything you had ever experienced in Armstrongism. It's not like someone kidnapped you, it's not like it's a human trafficking, you wanted it, you took it, you enjoyed it, so why the heck are you complaining now?"
Who is the victim-blaming POS "they" who say there are no victims? I mean, besides you, Leopold. Blame the conned, not the con-artist?
What about all the people, such as myself, who were born to two sincerely deluded WCG parents? Did I, in fact, choose those circumstances? Did I, in fact, enjoy growing up in Armstrongism? Did I, in fact, relish the thought of being indoctrinated by all sorts of lies every day?
What do you think I should have done? Crawled over to the next crib in the hospital and switched my identification, so as to escape by switching myself at birth? Too bad for me, I was born at the A.C. campus infirmary!
So, yeah, not really that different in the ways in which you're talking, from if I had been kidnapped. You stupid POS victim-blamer.
Well said, Hoss.
The commenter must be all smiles and sunshine when the washing machine breaks down, eh?
"There are no victims only volunteers. So, stop complaining all of you! You deserve every bit of everything you had ever experienced in Armstrongism. It's not like someone kidnapped you, it's not like it's a human trafficking, you wanted it, you took it, you enjoyed it, so why the heck are you complaining now?"
Its a con job. That is why I complain. And the reason I fell for it? I ignored my due diligence because I wanted to be "special".
You see folks, armstrongism is a con job and the con men need to be exposed. They might for now have a free ride under the American constitution but that will not be without the protest of those who fell under the spell of a Bernie Madoff religious huckster(s). As far as I am concerned, they the armstrongist are criminals. .
Like Hoss said, we are here to HELP IDIOTS LIKE LEOPOLD from becoming victims. But this Leopold moron does not deserve it. Well, maybe some people do. Not everyone is scum like him.
“They say, There are no victims only volunteers. So, stop complaining all of you! You deserve every bit of everything you had ever experienced in Armstrongism. It's not like someone kidnapped you, it's not like it's a human trafficking, you wanted it, you took it, you enjoyed it, so why the heck are you complaining now?
Leopold CM”
Actually, the more tyrannical false prophets like Gerald Flurry and David Pack do “volunteer” their members to be victims. In Gerald Flurry's PCG, the local goons do try to traffic the younger members for the old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators. Remember that in Gerald Flurry's PCG each lying, slandering, local tyrant gets to pass off his own satanic abuse as the government of God. Remember that in David Pack's RCG everyone is now supposed to hand over everything they have (savings, retirement plans, houses, possessions, etc.) to David Pack--“or no salvation if you don't.” It is called “common” even though David Pack owns and controls all of it for his own purposes. Poor people are lazy and need to go get a job rather than request “third tithe” assistance or any of the supposedly “common” funds from the RCG.
Remember that Satan-sent, Satan-directed monsters of depravity like Gerald Flurry and David Pack both now falsely claim that they--rather than Jesus--are “That Prophet” of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, and will rant and rave and yell and spit about how people must listen to everything they say or else God will be mad at those who don't. People's fear of God then gets misused to ensnare those who did not take seriously enough Jesus' warning to beware of false prophets.
The situation can be quite brutal. Consider, for example, how extreme scammers like Gerald Flurry and David Pack both pretended to be Herbert W. Armstrong's loyal, faithful successor and God's one true representative on planet Earth. Then, both of them went on to change and pervert everything that HWA had taught far worse than anyone else had done. Incredibly, Gerald Flurry and David Pack have both managed to make even the apostate Tkaches seem downright reasonable and decent compared to themselves and their own vile behavior.
At the start of their PCG and RCG imposter cults, Gerald Flurry and David Pack both pretended to be the very best people around, but time and events have now revealed them to be a couple of the very worst perverts around. Their deceitful and cruel scams harmed many decent people who were sincere but sincerely wrong to fall for them. Realistically, though, what chance did the ordinary little sheeple have against such deceitful, Satan-sent, Satan-directed types as Gerald Flurry and David Pack? With David Pack's “bait and switch” trick he taught one thing at the start of his RCG, but now teaches something totally different. In fact, David Pack is still making up outrageous new lies and nonsense as he goes on yelling and spitting week after week.
Different people can have different experiences and learn at different rates. The false prophets do not tell new people about all the wrong prophetic guesses from the past. Gerald Flurry even forbids people to learn about it, and cuts them off from anyone (including friends and family members) who could possibly tell them the truth and warn them. Everyone who was decent probably either left or got kicked out of the PCG and RCG by now. Those who are still with satanic imposter cults like the PCG and RCG in 2017 are probably no longer innocent or good (assuming that they ever were). By now, there must be something seriously wrong with their heads (even if there wasn't at the start). It is simply not possible to listen to Gerald Flurry and/or David Pack rant and rave year after year without suffering some sort of serious brain damage.
I didn't volunteer, and I barely tolerated it. Quite honestly, when my parents dragged us into it, and read us "The US and BC in Prophecy", I wished I had never been born.
The problem is, they kept hammering the Lake of Fire, the Germans, and the tribulation. Revisionists now say that HWA never set dates, but as we've brought back into memory the three math equations that they used to prove 1972-75, everyone now knows that the revisionists are liars. When HWA's date was blown, I realized that we'd been frightened into compliance with a false prophet. It also didn't hurt that the doctrines were just as easily disproven as the false prophecies.
Do I feel like a victim? Am I bitter? Hell no!
Living well, and catching up on all of the things of which we were deprived has been the best possible therapy.
BB
Although I never attended the WCG, I did attend Grace Communion International (2010-2015). Can anyone tell me what exactly are the signs of a cult?
I'm not bitter either. I just saw through all the lies and subterfuge and opted out. Then, I started on my real education which is ongoing. I just no longer need the crutch of gods and religion and would like to help as many as possible cut those chains and get as free as I am.
No superstitious adherence to special days, ridiculous constraints like unclean meats, no prostrating myself in meaningless prayer to a non-existent creator whose "representatives" make clear is going to do as he damn well pleases anyway because it's "his will." Yeah, right. If we discover a comet headed our way, we'd better get cracking on diverting it because no god is going to do a damn thing to stop it. If you get cancer, it better be early in the progress when it can be eradicated because no anointing and prayer is going to do a damn thing. You'd be better off getting marijuana some way and maybe stopping it yourself.
Allen C. Dexter
Leopold? Wasn't that the dude Bugs Bunny played?
Not sure why my comment didn't "take".
I didn't ask to be brought up in this hell. I was around 5 when my parents - one, with no religion, the other a Catholic - got baptized. So don't anyone DARE to tell me not to complain. I watched my family fall apart, with zero help from the ministry. In fact, actually no- it was the opposite. They basically made partners turn on each other.
They covered up rape, they let families go broke, they told lie after lie about a myriad of things.
The idea that ANYONE who was raised in this church could be a part of it in any form- in any splinter group - disgusts me. If you're an adult who brought your family into that, SHAME ON YOU. If you're still in it, and your life is sh-t, that's completely on you.
7.55 PM
A abusive cult basically robs you of your rights/adulthood. Your personal boundaries keeping shrinking, while the cult leaders and minions keep expanding. One good source is Googling cult expert, the late Margaret Singer. Her videos and articles appear on line. Steven Hassan is another expert who has written extensively on the topic.
sounds like the root of the problem is HWA worship....which is still happening... even in my group there are some that think Herbert hung the moon, and they are among the most unstable folks I know.
those that are focused on God aren't having those problems.....
I too was basically raised in the WCG from the 50's on, and let me tell you, THOSE were the most crazy, intense orthodox days in the WCG. Ambassador College was turning out 23 year old "ministers" who were hell bent on beating everyone down into submission. But some almost 60 years later I cannot still fathom why my mother threw herself totally, without suspicion into that organization, virtually abandoning us and trusted the ministry to rule every aspect of our lives. She became a religious zombie zealot, obeying every single absurd edict, not caring how we eventually ended up. as pretty ruined grown ups ourselves. What kind of person does that? How did I end up brainwashed myself for 30 years? How did I raise my own kids into that cult, what the bloody hell was I thinking?? Yes, I am out now, now going into my "golden years" with little or no provision laid up to last me the rest of my life. It all went to the WCG who promised we'd all be spirit beings by now. Am I bitter? Nah. Am I angry? Sure. Angry at my mother, angry at myself. When you're in it, you don't see how toxic it is. You aren't given a lucid moment to question, to doubt. It's all about the fear, the superstition. It took time, an evolutionary process to deprogram. Although you may say to get over it, it's not that easy. The bitterness is gone, and now that my mother has passed, it's getting easier to be less angry. But it takes time, and sadly, for many of us, there isn't a whole lot of time left to enjoy the good things. Just my take on the subject, IMHO.
All of the ritual makes cults attractive to needy personality types. A guy in my English class in High School and his family had converted to Catholicism. He explained that all of the ritual made their worship more meaningful. Apparently, active participation in things that were required gave them more to do. An unneedy person, or independent type just sees this all as extra rigamarole. Anal retentives lap up whatever high demand cults dish out to them.
BB
This post is missing a critical point. Nobody can make you do anything you don't want to do. They can coerce you. They can deceive you. They can influence you. They can issue "commands". But what you actually do is always your choice.
It is not inappropriate to relate stories of abuse or various problems in general one experienced. But too often those stories become excessive blame sessions where the individual takes no responsibility at all for their own actions. As a result, they are still a victim waiting on a new, different abuser.
If you sent money to the church - nobody made you write a check. The church was a voluntary association. Take some responsibility.
I grew up in the church. I experienced highs and lows and everything in between. But at no time did I do anything I didn't want to do. Even on the occasions when "authority" pressured me to do otherwise, I always found a way to make them "put up or shut up". I don't think I'm alone in that.
I am not discussing real cases of helplessness. For example a child is under the control of parents and parental decisions are decisive. But children can recover. The way they do that is by taking responsibility for their actions today.
Anon 8:49 I strongly disagree with you! Those that have been sucked into Armstrongism are the victim of "mind rape". Just as someone who is the victim of sexual rape they are not at fault for being raped. Also someone who is scamed out of huge amounts of money isn't guilty of the crime but the victim of the crime.
I'm all for making your own choices, and nobody being able to force you to do something.
But the facts you are given and the facts you find for yourself affect the choices you make.
If you are given faulty information, or incomplete information, you may make a poor choice while fully believing that it's the best one, based on the information at hand. Only when you realize the consequences of your choice do you see the folly of it.
We trust others in a variety of situations to give us correct information so we can make proper choices.
If that trust is broken, there IS a certain amount of responsibility on the part of the one providing the facts. It's not about shifting blame or avoiding responsibility on the part of the individual.
If your kids paid for candy and they were given poison and died would you say they got what they paid for, or were they tricked and murdered? That's what Leopold does not get, because he's just too dumb to get it.
That. All of that.
I recall hwa often saying he didn't know when but that the signs look like they indicate blah blah. Even 1975 In Prophecy didn't say what was to happen in 1975. I think it was the tier or two below him that promoted specific dates.
Hahaha,funny!Imagine stepping on a nail someone hid on the ground and someone telling you it was your choice to walk in that direction and step on that nail,does it hurt less or ease the pain, no, no one says I'm going to join a cult and ruin my life like no sane person decide step on a nail they know was planted for them.
What about those of us who were born into it??? We had no choice, you f**king assh*le. I wasn't able to think for myself until after I had grown up, left home, and found myself living in an area where there was no congregation nearby. It wasn't till then that I found the means to escape.
And for the dumb*ss above who says "children can recover"....what absolute bullsh*t. I will never fully recover from the things done to me under Armstrongism. I've made some progress, yes, but the abuse inflicted upon me by my minister and parents caused lasting physical damage I am reminded of every day. It goes well beyond just PTSD.
F*ck you, you pompous ass. May one day even 10% of the abuse I suffered through be inflicted on you, your kids, and your grandkids.
Gordon
Herb was trained in advertising. So when it came to the 1975 date, he used his manipulation skills to get people to believe in 1975 while avoiding legal liability. I recall him saying over and over in his writings:
I don't set dates, but consider this fact.
I don't set dates, but consider that fact.
I don't set dates, but consider this coincidence.
Etc, etc.
For all intents and purposes, he did set the date 1975.
People sold their homes, farms, people out off marriage, family, education. Church Members told me that they lost the will to live.
It was a complete disaster. And it wasn't God who told him to set the 1975 date.
Much blood is on Herbs head.
It's sad but not surprising that some still refuse to acknowledge that Herbert set dates.
As to the "victim" thing, that's an interesting topic.
It's easy to say everyone makes their own choices, the the actuality of choices made is more nuanced.
Some prefer to believe in black-and-white choices- because that's a simpler way to think, and often has the perk of a mass of people that agree.
I prefer to scan more deeply.
I suggest familiarizing yourself with the Milgram experiment for starters, and then reading up on the dynamics of cult conversion techniques.
I doubt anyone would to make a conscious choice to join and defend an organization that would tear apart his family, friendships and financial stability.
It's no coincidence that people who have been raised in a place with a predominant religion will most likely adopt that religion as their own- and even think it's been their own choice- whether it's Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, etc.
And the voracious defenders of these "choices" will tell you they KNOW their "choice" is right because they feel it in their body and soul, have a "personal connection" with their religion's deity, and even offer stories of miracles and blessings as "proof" that they've made the right choice.
What about Patty Hearst? When she called herself "Tania" and committed crimes with an M1 carbine and made bombs intended to kill police officers while with the Symbionese Liberation Army, were the choices she made her own?
During her trial, some testimony claimed she was a victim of coercive persuasion or brainwashing. Other testimony painted her participation in crimes as an act of free will.
Which was it?
She was was convicted, and the sentencing judge commented that "rebellious young people who, for whatever reason become revolutionaries, and voluntarily commit criminal acts will be punished"
(Note from Wikipedia: "In the weeks before he was murdered in Jonestown, Guyana, Representative Leo Ryan was collecting signatures for Patty's release, mentioning his own Synanon mass death threats, comparisons to Manson, and questions of the Patty Hearst case. Actor John Wayne, speaking after the Jonestown cult deaths, said it was odd that people had accepted the fact that Jim Jones had brainwashed 900 human beings into mass suicide, but would not accept that a group like the Symbionese Liberation Army could have brainwashed a kidnapped teenage girl.)
And, that brings up Charles Manson.
And HWA.
Charles Manson is now serving a life prison term for multiple murders. He did not commit any murders by his own hand. Should he be free now? Were the murders because of the "conscious choices" and "free will" of the followers who believed him and followed his instructions?
HWA is now dead. Many people died (very many more than those "Manson deaths")- which happened because believers followed his instructions which included the threat of the Lake of Fire, Eternal Damnation and Everlasting Death, if not followed.
Were these many unnecessary deaths because of the "conscious choices" and "free will" of his followers?
Is it reasonable to assume that the suicides of 918 people at Pastor Jim Jones's Peoples Temple in Jonestown, Guyana were all due to those people exercising their "conscious choice" and "free will" ?
~Mel
Our parents listened to WCG (HWA & GTA) in the early 70's and by early 80's they had us attending. I was heading into puberty and it was very hard but we were told if we endured to the end we would be in the place of safety while all mankind came to almost extinction. We truly believed everything we were told. It is only as I grew into an adult and went from WCG to Global to PCG that I came to realise how it is all about getting all those tithes (1, 2, 3 and tithe of tithe). And Locher the money gestapo is given the privilgege before each high day to preach about the finances and how the people must give up their physical materialistic lusts and put their whole hearts including their wallets, purses into the work. How the woman need to shop at the used clothing boutiques or make their own clothes in order to give more for the work. And how the husbands must lead and make sure the money is spent wisely and make sure the wives only get the money they need. Yes, good times (said sarcastically).
Gordon Feil said...
I recall hwa often saying he didn't know when but that the signs look like they indicate blah blah. Even 1975 In Prophecy didn't say what was to happen in 1975. I think it was the tier or two below him that promoted specific dates.
HWA is still responsible for what his subordinates preached. As in the military, a commander can delegate authority to his staff officers to act on his behalf, but he can not delegate responsibility. The Commander is always the responsible person. When there is a screw up, the commander is ultimately responsible. Even more so in the case of HWA since he is the one who appoints his subordinates to positions of authority. In the military, the commander has to work with the people who are assigned to his unit. If HWA says, "I didn't know they were preaching such and such" then perhaps he is not a very competent leader.
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