This was sent to me today:.
It appears GCI is setting forth some uniform standards as to what happens in weekly worship services. It seems that due to its relaxed standards of letting each congregation set their own guidelines for worship, things have gotten rather chaotic in some congregations
The GCI has given some latitude towards some congregations in allowing them to continue to meet on Saturdays for the last twenty years.
Those days are now coming to an end.
Ordering our worship
Dear Pastors and Ministry Leaders:
Greg and Susan Williams
Is there a particular way that worship services in the church should be conducted? That’s not a new question—the apostle Paul addressed it in his first letter to the church in Corinth. Their services had become contentious and chaotic, and Paul wanted to help them solve the problem. He did so by noting that, while their desire to exercise their spiritual gifts in worship was commendable, they must do so in ways that build up the church rather than causing division and confusion (1 Cor. 14:26, 33). Paul exhorted them to conduct their worship in “a fitting and orderly way” (1 Cor. 14:40). Believing that Paul’s exhortation is relevant for us today, I encourage all our pastors to gather with their leaders (including those who plan and direct worship) to evaluate their worship services.
History of worship liturgy
Let me share some relevant history. As various worship traditions developed, some churches and whole denominations adopted a “liturgical” approach to structuring their worship services, while others adopted an approach called “non-liturgical.” By definition, liturgical churches follow a set liturgy (order of worship). Some utilize a “high liturgy” that is fully-scripted while others have a “low liturgy” that, being less-scripted, allows more flexibility. Non-liturgical churches, while still having an order of services, are even more flexible. Historically, many Protestant churches became non-liturgical—not because they were against order in their worship, but because they did not like what they felt was the excessive ritual of the liturgy practiced in their day.
Whether liturgical (high or low) or non-liturgical, all churches (whether acknowledging it or not) have a liturgy—some sort of “order” to their worship. That’s good because a lack of order can lead to the chaos Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians 14. Interestingly, there is a movement today among some non-liturgical churches to return to certain elements of the ancient, more formal liturgy of the church (click here and here for more information). They find that this shift makes their worship more appealing and inspiring to both regular attenders and visitors.
GCI’s history and a challenge for us today
Historically, worship in GCI (reaching back to WCG and beyond) followed a highly structured, standardized order. With our reformation came greater flexibility in how our congregations ordered their worship services. However, it is my observation that in adopting a less structured approach, some of our services have become somewhat chaotic and thus not as edifying as they need to be. Given that situation, I ask all our pastors and fellowship group facilitators to gather with their leaders to examine how they are conducting their worship services. Here are some questions to ask:
- Do our services focus on who God is as revealed in Jesus?
- Do they reflect the communal nature of our triune God who exists in harmony and unity?
- Are our services uplifting and hope-filled, or are they uninspiring?
- Do all aspects of our worship build up the church, or is there confusion and chaos?
- Do all who are open to hearing the gospel (including non-Christians) feel welcome in our services?
Conducting this evaluation and making needed changes will take careful and intentional effort. That’s appropriate since the root words of liturgy mean “the work of the people.” Wanting to assist you in that work, we have published in this issue an article that addresses worship in GCI congregations. It includes a standard order of services (liturgy) that, though not required, is strongly recommended. Over the next six months in GCI Equipper, we’ll publish additional articles that will provide further guidance to help you discern the Spirit’s direction concerning your worship services. As you go through this time of discernment and restructuring, I encourage pastors to discuss their insights and plans with their Regional Pastor (U.S.) or Regional Director (elsewhere).
Points to ponder about congregational life
Though our worship services are vital, they are only one part of a congregation’s life. With this broader perspective in mind, as pastors gather with their leadership teams to evaluate their liturgy, I challenge them to also evaluate some other key issues. To help them do so, I’ve listed below some points to ponder. It’s my observation that we’ve tended to overlook some (many?) of these issues. Perhaps that’s because we’ve been (necessarily) focused on doctrinal and theological renewal over the past several years. I believe it’s now time to attend to these other issues as we enter a new season of living out of the loving, inclusive relationship we have through Jesus in the power of the Spirit.
- If your congregation is functioning more like a small group (with high levels of interaction and sharing of the leadership/facilitation role), it’s likely that you should consider yourself a “fellowship group” rather than a “church” that provides a well-planned and executed worship service. Healthy churches need to have a combination of both well-executed worship services as well as small group gatherings where disciples are enriched, and depth of community is built. Please be satisfied with what you can currently offer, and trust the Lord for the future growth you desire.
- If you are holding your primary worship service on Saturday, that puts you out of step with most of GCI and the rest of the Christian world. Doing so sends a misleading signal about who GCI is. While circumstances may have prevented some GCI congregations from moving to Sunday services, making that change should now be a priority. In my far and wide GCI travels, I have rarely experienced a strong, vibrant and growing GCI church that is meeting on Saturday.
- If you are meeting at an awkward time of day that makes it hard for people to gather, then you need to make a course correction.
- If you are gathering in a hall that is difficult to locate and is out of the flow of normal activity, then consider how to improve your location, and find a target community to be immersed in.
- If you are renting space in a church building that is owned by another congregation/denomination, consider the problems you face with identity. Is it clear that you are a congregation of a separate denomination?
- If you have a rotating speaking schedule with multiple preachers, it’s likely that you are in “maintenance mode,” lacking cohesive leadership and vision for your church. The lead pastor should preach a minimum of three times per month, and it is even better if they preach five out of six weeks.
- If your lead pastor also fills the role of “chief deacon,” then members need to step up. Perhaps the pastor needs to let some things go.
- If you have people conducting the musical aspects of your worship (instrumental and/or vocal) who are not musically gifted, something needs to change. Get people involved in worship, but in accordance with their giftedness.
- If your weekly worship service is structured in accordance with GCI’s past tradition, and hasn’t been examined in a long time, now is the time for a “come to Jesus” meeting! Take a good, hard look and have the difficult conversations. You will be glad you did!
Once again, I encourage pastors to discuss their findings concerning these points with their immediate supervisor. Let us work together as a team to bring improvements to the worship and other aspects of congregational life in our churches and fellowship groups. Thank you for your cooperation.
Your brother in Christ,
Greg Williams, GCI Vice President
102 comments:
Well, its about time they ended the Saturday churches! How many years have they coddled these people! They refuse to go to any of the splinter cults and remain so they can hold on to the truth Herbie taught them.
I had no idea that there were still Saturday keepers in GCI.
Some of the larger mega churches in major cities (largely Protestant), have worship services throughout the entire weekend. Maybe the GCI people who prefer to attend Saturday services could transfer to a mega church. I mean, they’ve already been listening to Protestant doctrines for the past 20+ years! What kind of thinking leads to a person diligently attending a church each week where doctrines with which they vehemently disagree are taught? Also, what cumulative anomalies would this have produced within their state of belief over the years? And, in their childrens’ beliefs?
Only within Armstrongism could such a farcical and demented state of mind exist! Can we all imagine what will happen when these people finally feel compelled to leave over this? The only splinter I can see as a sort of lopsided match for them would be UCG.
BB
Why should they end Saturday worship? Didn't the days begin and end at sunset? Didn't the NT church meet on Saturday night (the first day of the week)? Didn't they meet in homes? Wasn't that structured if they came together, ate together, had a lesson, song and prayer. Should a church headquarters decide for each local congregation? In seminary I had a classmate who ministered in Las Vegas. His church met at about 2 a.m. It worked for that group since they were in an industry in a city that was largely awake during the night and sleeping during the day. I suggest that it be left to the individual groups as to when and how they gathered. What principle do they violate by doing it their own way?
Not all of the GCI churches meeting on Saturday are composed of unreformed Armstrongites. Some are and some have other reasons, such as wanting to use a real church building and since the owners of the building use it on Sunday the GCI group decides to go with Saturday. The church in San Diego is a an example of that.
It seems to me that the larger issue revealed by this letter is the continuing dislike that Greg Williams and other GCI leaders have for the people of the church they lead. It’s like a dysfunctional marriage where one partner says “I love you - now here’s a list of all the things you need to change about yourself.” GCI is a denomination of small groups of 10-25 people each, where there are few people with musical ability and preaching has to be rotated among volunteers. In the whole U.S. they have only about 30 full-time pastors and almost all of their groups have to meet wherever they are fortunate enough to find space available at a low price - even if they have to meet on Saturdays.
Most of what Mr. Williams is nagging GCI about in this letter is impossible for them to do and his words will be mostly ignored. It is not an auspicious start to his administration. It has the sound of a memo from a CEO more than a caring letter from the chief pastor. But it is not surprising - like almost all GCI leaders Mr. Williams does not worship at a GCI church if he is given the choice. Some years back when he lived in Atlanta and was employed by a non-GCI parachurch ministry he rarely worshiped with his local GCI congregation because he didn’t like the way it was run.
I also think this letter helps explain why GCI has yet to reform its polity. GCI leaders don’t like or trust the people they lead and so they do not want them involved in denominational decision making. It’s much easier to have the current leader appoint his own successor and then have that person continue doing what has always been done, as Mr. Williams does in this letter: nag and criticize over issues that are actually quite challenging and complex.
Greg's letter implies that the ministers and congregations have great latitude in the running of their churches. I wonder how true that is? Are these new recommendations just code words for 'do this or else?'
I don't know in this case, but abusive churches are notorious for having a appealing outer face, while the reality inside their church is very different.
Well if they force Sunday worship upon these people, one will win the bet that they will leave and join one of the Sabbath groups.
Uh-oh. All of the remaining GRUMPS are going to be left without any desirable place left to attend. They'll likely all migrate together en masse. Will they go to Vic & Robin's New & Improved UCG, or to Kilough & Frank's LCG Lite? Or maybe they'll open up a new chapter of Fred Coulter's Church At Home? That'll last until the infighting starts, I suppose...
It seems that the only churches that are growing now are the modern non-denomination churches that have non-traditional, informal worship services. If that is the direction that GCI goes they are the only COG group that has a chance of growth. It also helps that they worship on Sunday. That is the day most mainstream Christians worship.
Dear Greg Williams-
Who the hell needs you or GCI? What exactly are you providing to any of these local groups other than the privilege of paying a "franchise fee" to you and your buddy joey? These churches have evolved and survived not because of anything you have provided. That said- what do you think gives you any rights to be dictating what these groups should do?
You still are a controlling and dictatorial group in spite of the "Grace" moniker that you have embraced.
You are nothing more than "Grace Nazis" , controlling Armstronites, but now with a Protestant wrapper.
WCG/CGI are reaping the confusion they sewed. The best analogy I can come up with at the moment is that if I come to play hockey, don't stop in the middle of the game and announce we all now are going to play basketball. I didn't come to play basketball and I am not a fan of it. Hockey on the other hand... Not only are we all going to play basketball now, those who were coaching the hockey team are not going to coach basketball.
I don't believe the idea of "we used to believe this but not we all are going to believe and practice this" has much chance in the real world of what draws people to the ideas and organizations they seek.
Good luck with many sticking around to learn the new game and those that do won't accomplish it minutes or hours. They won't even get the ice melted and a court set up before most get bored and leave.
The Apostle Paul had the problems he had in Corinth and other places because he caused them in the first place with his views. He freed people from law (depending on which books you read) and they turned it into cheap grace with perks that drove Paul nuts. All predictable as it is in CGI. I think this is why you read Paul as being both for and against the concept of law but let's not open that can of worms. Paul was said to be "hard to understand" and this is true.
New International Version 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
This is not the Peter of the Gospels speaking. Peter didn't write or even know impeccable Greek as an ignorant Galilean fisherman. This was written decades later by someone claiming Peter's name and authority because the church had fallen into the same disrepair and conflict we see in CGI. The author admitted what we also know. Paul was hard to understand and his views can be used to weave many contradictory theological beliefs and tales. Of course the "unstable people" get blamed. But it was the fault of those trying to fix it and who changed it all in the first place.
The Tkaches should simply have left for their own greener pastures in Christendom and left the WCG alone dislike it as they did. But then there are no perks, no job, no retirement and no one would know or even care who they are.
The Tkaches thought to change in months what modern and established Christian denominations have invested centuries in bringing about.
Anonymous said...
Well, its about time they ended the Saturday churches! How many years have they coddled these people!
Spoken in the ignorance that goes with lack of understanding what informs, inspires, calms and encourages some versus what does others and the intolerance that goes with it.
The Tkaches catered to those who would "drag their feet" because they still got support from them. I am sure it was much the same way in the early years of Christianity when the Jewish version was crushed, eventually, by the Gentile version Paul introduced. Paul did win the argument of the day but not until long after his death.
As so well put in The Religion of the Occident:
"The gulf between Jewish and Gentile Christianity ws simply impassable. The saviors projected by the two were utterly different. Only a dedicated, fiery genius like Paul, half Jew and hald Gentile, at once Hebrew and Roman could carry the Orphic-Essene message of Jesus to Gentiles. But even he could not carry it to the Jews also..."This was the inevitable result, because Paul re-created correctly so much of the Pagan Gospel Jesus... Both Jew and Gentile accepted only what had already long been his own."
and..
"Revelation (The Book) was the swan song of Militant Jewish Christianity. When Jerusalem was destroyed, when Rome waxed greater and more powerful, when the False Prophet gained more and more followers (Paul by this author's view, and my own), when the book itself was proved totally false within two years, when it became evident that the Jewish Messiah-Christ would not come, the Hebrew Christians lost their virility and their cult faded under the combined assault of orthodox Judaism and of Gentile Christianity."
But a little kind slack needs be given to the generation caught in the middle. There is nothing new under this sun either.
Nicely and perceptively spoken 429. The issues are deeply rooted in why and how good folk came to WCG in the first place and from where and "the changes" are very complex and will never be solved. In time all these folk will die and their children will pass into their own church choices leaving only a distant memory of what Grandpa and Grandma did or believed.
For me the Tkaches simply reinvented the wheel. What was so amazing to them was, like many others, where they came from and what they found wanting.
Ron Kelly told me personally that the Church had no money because Jesus had worked a miracle in the church. I responded that the Jesus he spoke of seemed more like a trickster than a miracle worker and that the conflict was really between Jewish Jesus and Gentile "Christ". Christ won. Some think that is a good thing. Others all through history not so much. It will never end. The NT portrays both.
Looking at this organization from afar for many years, the one flawed character trait that has exuded from them is that of a shifting identity just blowing in the wind. They are so much like a person without any self esteem.
First it was all about grace and that couldn't have been said enough; now it is all about love. Before it didn't matter what day of the week a person worshiped God on, now it must be on Sunday so as to blend with other churches. In the past it was stated that "We are not exclusive" and God works wherever; now it matters where your church is located and that you are identified as a separate exclusive entity. Early on, there was the condemnation of continual one man leadership; now the main leader/speaker needs to the predominant person leading the congregations. This list could go on and on but for having over 30 years to establish a solid identity to make themselves relevant within the world christian community, they have failed mightily to establish a firm identity that would make the world Christian community take notice.
In my area, the local GCI congregation is down to a handful of members with most of the previous attendees moving on to bigger more established and exciting churches.
@Anonymous 6:02 - It seems from the secondary article on GCI worship that they're going to become MORE formal, not less so. Even recommending a weekly communion.
"Looking at this organization from afar for many years, the one flawed character trait that has exuded from them is that of a shifting identity just blowing in the wind. They are so much like a person without any self esteem."
This is a carefully-worded, gentle-prodded message because it has the potential to impact what little income that they have coming in. GCI is in between a rock and a hard place - and it is a situation that is of their own doing.
I'm sure that Greg Williams sees and experiences churches of vibrant growth and strong community. And then he looks at the church he presides over - and I can almost feel the jealousy and discontent. Because the people that he has in his denomination are all over the board - in his own spectrum.
1. Many are GRUMPS. If you lose them, you lose a major component of income - the people who feel they have to tithe to GCI because it's actually WCG but not WCG.
2. Many have become acclimated because of the way things are now. It's been 23 years since the big wave crashed and rocked the church. Now, "more changes" are on the horizon - but how many more changes can a rocked and traumatized remnant endure?
3. Some are there just for relationship purposes with others. You end a certain subset of worship, and demand change, you lose one group AND their friends.
4. For those who are left, the worship structure is "chaotic" because they have lost those who "do" have the musical and charismatic talent to lead a service. Trying to focus and force a liturgy is like trying to make a 95 lb person lift 300 lb weights.
This is a very, very tricky slope to go down for a broken and traumatized denomination consisting nearly entirely of a small remnant of former WCG'ers. It's also a denomination that has never really found their way - and it's been 23 years. I think there is a level of impatience on the part of the leaders who see successful churches, know the successful formulas, but can't seem to get their awkward, stumbling, hodge-podge of a church on any traction. Any kind of further change has the potential to completely crumble the house of cards that's already on shifting sand.
Instead of trying to force more changes on what is "left" of their denomination - causing people to try to adapt to a specific way of standards and practices denomination-wide, when the whole denomination is literally chaos - they should do the right thing.
They need to disband as a denomination, turn the individual franchisees loose as private congregations to worship as they choose. Cut them free. There's no other "good" way to do this - it will just bring more trauma and harm to churches, forcing them to act and worship in a way that their local church isn't wanting, or is used to. Greg Williams should find himself a healthy, cheerful, vibrant denomination to worship in if he isn't liking his own denomination's people or the way their congregations are ran. Because - in my opinion - the way it is now is completely beyond repair as a denomination.
Time to embrace Ellen White as their new false prophet.
If you have people conducting the musical aspects of your worship (instrumental and/or vocal) who are not musically gifted, something needs to change.
I'm pretty sure that if there were people who were musically gifted, they wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines letting the less musically gifted run the worship program of the church. Because musically gifted people listening to non-musically gifted people is like listening to nails on a chalkboard mixed with a howling cat.
So then what needs to change? You can't pull musically gifted people out of thin air. Those who are musically gifted with mainstream theology want to serve in a church where their talents can be well used - an active church, with a respondent congregation. This isn't a typical GCI small group congregation. To attract talented worship, you have to have a vibrant congregation. In the small groups they have now, finding good musical talent is going to be a challenge, at best.
I guess "something needs to change" is more of a cry of frustration and "I don't know what to do, but DO SOMETHING!".
Maybe they need to pool up their funds and hire some Christian musicians to lead worship. Good luck though - they're already involved.
Perhaps the best thing to happen is if some people in their local congregation simply took on the cause of taking music or vocal classes and training in the skill. Maybe denomination headquarters can fund such a program - like a "worship institute" for people who show promise or have wanted to learn music but have never been able to. This would be a case where a denomination could have some positive influence in helping their local church instead of just saying "something needs to change".
Ol' Ross Jutsum could teach and head it up.
That sect of Armstrongites warming seats in GCI waiting on divine intervention (or whatever it is they're waiting for) won't like this. I'm a little surprised, I thought this had been done over a decade ago.
If your weekly worship service is structured in accordance with GCI’s past tradition,
I hope he is not saying that the 1-2-3-OP-SMTE-1-2-ANN-SM-SRMN-1-CP Format still exists, complete with the Dwight Armstrong dirges in some churches. Though I would not doubt it in some of the Saturday congregations.
The switch to Sunday worship is the GCI stomping on any remaining embers of Herbs church. It was to be expected. I'm surprised it took this long.
Why do you judge GCI ? Who are you to tell anybody what to believe or not believe? GCI is not WCG!
Oh the places your old gym teacher will go!
They had this planned from before Herbie died. The CGI is a ruse through and through. It's so fake only a fool can't see through it.
GCI members have been played all along.
I do believe that the body of literature which the leaders of what became GCI produced to demonstrate the doctrinal errors inherent in Armstrongism, and to correct those errors, have profound value. However, I felt that right from the beginning, once the corrections were made, there were long-established organizations with vastly greater experience in the correct doctrines, and who had none of the poisonous authoritarian church government style that had caused the toxic environment which was always present in Armstrongism, and had made it so cultish.
To me, the correct version of Dennis’s sports metaphor would be a group of cage fighters suddenly realizing mid-meet that their sport was far too violent and destructive, and opting for a pickup game of basketball instead.
To really reform Armstrongism, the main effort would need to be personal and individual., completely separate from the group. Any organized process which had come from within would have needed to be freed of all of the cruelty, toxicity, the manipulation and lies, in other words, freed from the entire thought processes inherent in the original movement.
I believe that some individual members have made exceptional progress in their Christian walks. We see that here from some of the comments. However, that progress would most likely have been greatly accelerated for most members, had the process been handed over to a better collection of teachers. In our sports metaphor, imagine the cage fighters throwing an occasional punch or kick during the basketball game to prevent a player from making his shot at the hoop. Essentially, that’s pretty much what the old Armstrongite leaders did with the new “game”.
BB
Dennis said, "The best analogy I can come up with at the moment is that if I come to play hockey, don't stop in the middle of the game and announce we all now are going to play basketball. I didn't come to play basketball and I am not a fan of it. Hockey on the other hand... Not only are we all going to play basketball now, those who were coaching the hockey team are not going to coach basketball."
MY COMMENT - Actually Dennis, it is a great analogy.
I would add the new basketball coaches start trashing everything that the old hockey coaches ever did while simultaneously downsizing the team and liquidating for themselves the assets contributed by those people who thought that they had come to play hockey. And for a while, even lie to the team that they are still playing hockey even though anyone with a brain could plainly see they are playing a new game of basketball. Oh, and then after the head hockey croaks, the new head basketball coach puts words in the dead head hockey coach's mouth which no one else witnessed saying "he meant to change the game" giving the appearance to the team that his successor head coach had the blessing of the Founder late head hockey coach to change the game from hockey to basketball midstream all along.
Richard
Disgruntled GCI Saturday Sabbath keepers will simply transfer to UCG.
Wait and see...
So fake Claire is all hot and bothered that anyone questions her church, of which she is an extremely poor representative, but has no problem criticizing other breakaway groups. It’s time to shut up Claire, you have no credibility.
"I'm pretty sure that if there were people who were musically gifted, they wouldn't be sitting on the sidelines letting the less musically gifted run the worship program of the church. Because musically gifted people listening to non-musically gifted people is like listening to nails on a chalkboard mixed with a howling cat."
After all those horrible Barry Manilow covers and awful barbershop quarter numbers, I would say that yes, the gifted were indeed sitting on the sidelines. :)
Claire
Don't despair. You're not special.
They criticize EVERYONE here. That's their religion. Right Dennis?
Problem: what will groups who rent Sunday-Protestant church buildings on Saturday do?
Solution: Tkach who is worth an estimated $20-million can dig in his pocket - Tammy permitting - and pay for buildings.
OMG so many thoughts came to mind while reading this GCI update, so I’ll share a couple:
1. I love the way that Greg thinks he can bully the church people into submission, with all of his “points.” This didn’t work so well for Joe Tkach Sr. - so it’s not gonna work this time either.
2. Greg’s points sound like a Jeff Foxworthy joke: “You might be a real congregation if you....”
3. GCI just needs to die. I said that 20+ years ago when WCG started their “miraculous transformation,” that really just ended up as an experiment gone wrong.
What Greg Williams WANTS to happen verses what will REALLY happen.
1. Can magically produce musically gifted people.
What will really happen: Congregations will wonder what to do. They will scratch their heads. No funding to do anything about it. End result: Lower morale and self-conscious worship leaders. A frustrated lead pastor.
2. Don't meet at an awkward time of day.
What will really happen: Changing time of day will result in frustrated members. Now they have to get up early. Now they can't go to work. It won't go over well. Time of day will change. People will threaten to leave. No changes. A frustrated lead pastor.
3. Can move to a more visible location.
What will really happen: More visible locations = More expensive. No funds. Can't afford more visible location. Besides, more visible location too far to drive. No changes. a frustrated lead pastor.
4. Stop renting space in another denomination's building.
What will really happen: These are Saturday churches, since Sunday churches can't meet in another church. Disband Saturday churches. Find a cheap hall. Hall not in visible location. Saturday people leave. Cheapest place is not visible. Saturday people leave. Income drops. Frustrated lead pastor.
5. Pastor isn't acting like a chief deacon.
What will really happen: Pastor wants members to take up the slack. Members accuse pastor of getting lazy. Members want ordination to deacon/deaconess. Members threaten to leave. Pastor takes up the slack, afraid of losing money. Everything stays the same. Frustrated lead pastor.
7. Focus on who God is as revealed in Jesus.
What will really happen: This most likely is happening in more conservative churches, following the Old Order. These people will get mad saying church is too Jesus-y. They'll leave. Income will drop. Frustrated lead pastor.
8. Have a lead pastor who preaches most of the time.
What will really happen: Other preachers will become butt-hurt because they are preaching less. They'll leave. Income drops. Frustrated lead Pastor.
12. Make everyone even non-Christians welcome.
What will really happen: Non-Christians will come to church. Wonder what kind of group this is. Horrible singers. Chaotic Service. Unusual format. Grumblers. They feel overly-welcomed and become uncomfortable. They don't come back. Frustrated lead pastor.
BOTTOM LINE? FRUSTRATED LEAD PASTORS INTERNATIONAL. Hey GCI Pastors: Wouldn't wanna be ya. Good luck. Have a coffee. Take a walk. Count to ten. It's going to get a little rocky in GCI-Land. You ain't a WCG 20th Century Pastor, that's for dang sure.
1.07 PM
Claire has called herself a firebrand on a previous post, and has had posts deleted by Admin for her Nazi name calling. So yeah, she is 'special.'
Claire is just a cranky windbag that treats people like dirt. She is the new face of GCI. I bet they are proud of her!
Who said I was judging GCI? I just posted the article that was sent me. I totally understood and supported the changes. They were necessary and long over due. How it was implemented was another story. Untold damage was done to people with the continual denials and waffling as changes were being rolled out. One week the church denied any changes were happening and the next week there would be changes. Then when changes happened it was no “let’s sit down and discuss this through as a community of faith”, it was here it is, like it or leave. And the
What does name calling have to do with Nazis? Only Nazis call people names? Aren't you calling her names (a Nazi).
GCI is a case study in how to manipulate people. Sad. Their leaders do not have one iota of integrity.
Who are you to tell anybody what to believe or not believe?
I agree! No more telling people what to think. Shut down the Internet! No more blogs! No more opinion pages in newspapers! No more BS TV pundits telling people lies!
I don't know what pisses me off more:
The ineffective and dead Sardis Splintered Armstrong Churches of God OR...OR little Joey Tkach inheriting the Worldwide Church of God assets, changing the brand and becoming a multi-millionaire worth $20 Million along the way according to anonymous June 23, 2018 at 2:08 PM.
Richard
The vast majority of GCI congregations already meet on Sunday. There won't be many GCI members leaving to join the UCG simply because if they where inclined to do so they would have done it already.
As to them embracing the old structured form of worship, that is a big mistake. The only churches that are growing are churches that have modern, less structured services. I see the GCI continuing to decline for many reasons.
7.33 PM
Claire has attacked people she disagreed with by calling them Nazis. This isn't reasoning with people or a exchange of ideas. Rather it is intellectual bullying.
I don’t know that the $20 Million figure is accurate at all. I frequently Google different celebrities to get a glimpse at net worths. There are some “joke” sites that will list outrageous counter-intuitive net worths for some. Mediamass is one. Vipfaq has listed a figure of $113 million for Joe Jr. but the sites which I’ve found to be most reliable do not list any figure for him. Generally, that either indicates a net worth somewhere south of $500,000, or that the subject of the inquiry remains under study.
We can know reliably that Joe has had a salary within the low six figures for the past 20 years. That means that if he were earning $200,000 per year (I believe Gavin reported somewhat less), if Joe banked it all up, a ten year agregate would be $2 M, and twenty years would yield $4 M. But you’ve got to spend some money and have some exemptions, otherwise the taxes would eat you up alive. As an example, if you net $100,000 per year, expect to pay at least $30,000 in federal and state income taxes if you are honest.
There are also laws which would prevent you from capturing the assets of a corporation of which you are an officer. We can assume that if people were watching HWA and Stan Rader for fiduciary misconduct, there would also be no shortage of pissed off members scrutinizing Joe Tkach.
If my old friend Joe has done well financially, it doesn’t concern me. How many of us would gladly have contributed to a war chest to bring down the Armstrong scam that ruined so many lives? I do wish that Dennis would have been taken care of more equitably, but those of us who have chosen not to pick from amongst the various directions in which authority figures are herding us have always been left with the tab. It’s the price for freedom and integrity.
BB
"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33
c f ben yochanan
I would have respected these clowns if early they stated their full intentions. Thankfully, I saw through much of it 22 years ago and made my exit minus my husband. I make no apologies for my Sabbath/Holy Day etc...observances...but I needed to learn twice that absolute power can lead to absolute corruption.
Byker,
If the WCG was a regular corporation with a governing board of directors, I might agree with you. But WCG is a "corporate sole" similar to a single member LLC. The single members Armstrong and the Tkaches are accountable to no one. The question involving financial malfeasance in the 1970s which you raised boiled down to - was the Church operating in violation of its tax-exempt status?
The Worldwide Church of God had considerable assets at the time of Herbert Armstrongs's death. Armstrong owned near nothing of his own other than some personal items and perhaps even died almost penniless but passed the entire WCG multi-million dollar assets onto his successor(s).
What we do know is that Tkach liquidated the Church's valuable real estate assets in Pasadena and Big Sandy. The Church also had other real estates assets such as the property in Orr, Minnesota. There has never been a full accounting of the asset liquidation. We also know that today's WCG/GCI does not have the wealth it had under Armstrong. From what we read, the remaining organization today operates under austere conditions.
So where did all the money go? Show us the money, Mr. Tkach!
I am certain some of the liquidated real estate assets went to fund their private pension fund. But did it all go there? I doubt it. But who knows when there is no transparency.
Let me suggest a possibility - little Joey Tkach as the corporate sole member could transfer funds out of the WCG into another entity - an entity in which he also controls. Your google searches won't pick this wealth up. Nevada corporations are known for their secrecy and asset protection. Swiss bank accounts are also secretive. No whistleblowers like you mentioned because secrecy was a condition of their retirement package. Who is to say that this scenario didn't happen to abscond with the wealth of the WCG?
Your old friend Joey did not gain his financial success by honest means unless you believe the means justify the ends. I, for one, actually believe the $20M figure according to anonymous June 23, 2018, at 2:08 PM. It makes sense when considering the value of the real estate sales. Tkach didn't get the majority of his wealth by saving his annual earned income salary as you suggest. And don't forget the Church provided him housing and other perks along the way - just like it did for Herbert Armstrong.
Richard
So the GCI apostacy comes full circle now. At least their being honest, it took them long enough.
But even after the latest purge, they will forever be the outsiders and never will be fully accepted by those they seek to impress.
The will be more lost sheep wandering around now. Some might say sick sheep who've been fed polluted water for a long time.
Richard, they claimed that the sheer upkeep of the staff and infrastructure consumed much of the wealth after tithing was temporarily abolished. When tithing was reinstituted, the vast majority of the earlier tithe pie was already being funnelled into the splinter groups. The entire campus was a white elephant, and there were many hurdles which required jumping in order to carve it up, and sell it for redevelopment. We’ve heard stories regarding the decaying of these assets during the delays in sale because of a shortage of funds for their upkeep, and much was sold off at firesale prices. It’s complicated, and although I’m certain that Joe is not hurting for coin, it would be simplistic thinking indeed to assume that there were great profits, and that he’s somehow hording them all for himself.
The greater point is that we will never know unless we see a forensic accounting, and even that could obscure matters further and raise additional unanswerable questions. The outcome would largely depend on how honest or skilled the hired Einsteins who prepared the accounting happened to be. Plus, our rule of law draws basis from the presumption that a man is innocent until proven guilty. I for one, respect the way in which the IRS brought Ron Weinland to justice, and tend to think that IRS at least gave the rest of the ACOg leaders (including Bernie and Joe) a look over for red flags.
In some people’s minds, Joe will never be seen as an emancipator. Regardless of actual facts, he’ll be seen as the big bad meany that destroyed the “Camelot” that we all know bore more resemblance to Stepford (or the Third Reich!).
BB
"Armstrong owned near nothing of his own other than some personal items and perhaps even died almost penniless but passed the entire WCG multi-million dollar assets onto his successor(s)."
Really? Penniless? His 1981 IRS 1040 tax form showed an adjusted gross income of over $421K, about $1.2 million in todays dollars. What did he do with all of this money? No one his age, with grown children needed that kind of compensation. I suggest he had a fortune stashed away in case he got bumped out in a power grab by someone.
“In my far and wide GCI travels, I have rarely experienced a strong, vibrant and growing GCI church that is meeting on Saturday.”
LOL
And not only that, but you probably have never experienced a strong, vibrant and growing GCI church that is meeting on Sunday either, or on any other day of the week.
Just an observation...
"Reigning in some chaotic worship services" has a very different meaning than "Reining in some chaotic worship services."
WCG/GCI HQ has been doing the former for more than 70 years. Greg Williams may WANT to do the latter, but all signs point to UNLIKELY.
The Sunday keepers argue that it is not wrong to worship God on days other than the weekly Sabbath. They argue that one can and should worship God on every day of the week. Then they argue that in order to be consistent everyone should have their church meetings on Sunday so that everyone will be doing the same thing.
Sunday keepers ignore the biblical FACT that God commanded his own chosen people in one of his Ten Commandments to REMEMBER his Sabbath day, not to FORGET it.
The Sunday keepers don't want to admit that they are not really worshipping the God of the Bible at all on Sunday, but rather openly rejecting him and his Sabbath. As haters of everything that God taught, they like to think that Jesus was some smart-alecy young man who came to do away with his father's laws. They think that biblical things such as the commandments of God are so bad, but that pagan-based customs and traditions of men are so good. This in spite of what Jesus said about religious people full well rejecting the commandments of God in or to keep their own traditions of men, and how it was in vain.
"Sunday keepers ignore the biblical FACT that God commanded his own chosen people in one of his Ten Commandments to REMEMBER his Sabbath day, not to FORGET it.
The Sunday keepers don't want to admit that they are not really worshipping the God of the Bible at all on Sunday, but rather openly rejecting him and his Sabbath. As haters of everything that God taught, they like to think that Jesus was some smart-alecy young man who came to do away with his father's laws. They think that biblical things such as the commandments of God are so bad, but that pagan-based customs and traditions of men are so good. This in spite of what Jesus said about religious people full well rejecting the commandments of God in or to keep their own traditions of men, and how it was in vain."
Nice taking the words right out of HWA's mouth, how original.
Charge 1: They think the biblical things such as the commandments of God are bad.
Charge 2: Pagan Based customs and traditions of men are good.
Charge 3: Sunday keepers are rejecting the commandments of God in order to keep their own traditions of men.
Response 1: You are not rightly dividing the relationship of God to Jews/under the Law, and the Gentiles, after the fulfillment of the Law. You believe Jesus Christ has not fulfilled the Law, nor are you comprehending the implications of that fulfillment and the current ministry under the Holy Spirit. It's almost as if Jesus' coming 2000 years ago changed and meant absolutely nothing. The commandments of God as in the OT were NOT bad. They simply had a purpose that has been fulfilled through the ministry of Jesus Christ. Jesus fulfilled what the Law could not. The Sabbath is now the Sabbath Rest in Jesus Christ through the ministry of the Holy Spirit - who writes the Laws of God on our hearts.
Response 2: God is looking at the heart. He is looking at how we treat people more than anything else. With the ministry of the Holy Spirit comes a change of attitude - and the fruits of the Spirit, such as kindness, mercy, and self control. These fruits of the spirit and how we love people fully supercedes and overpowers any custom of paganism. Christians do not worship false Gods or idols, which have no power, but instead concentrate on relationships - with God, with family, with brothers and sisters in Christ, and how we show and express our faith in acts of love and kindness - not worrying if something is "pagan" or not. Love is the fulfillment of the Law, and all things hang on the great Laws of Love - to God and Neighbor - not if something once was pagan or not.
Response 3: No, Sunday Keepers are not rejecting the commandments of God. The Commandment of God is clear: Love God with all your heart and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
This means Saturday or Sunday, Traditions, Holidays, Holy Days ALL hang on the greater principles of love to all. THIS is the important part - not if you go to church on Saturday or on Sunday. If you are showing love to God by worship - that supersedes any commandment of the law and the prophets. Going to church on Sunday does NOT invalidate this all-encompassing Greater Law of Love.
BAD! GOOD!
Is that Frankenstein's monster up in here? Geez.
"This means Saturday or Sunday, Traditions, Holidays, Holy Days ALL hang on the greater principles of love to all. THIS is the important part - not if you go to church on Saturday or on Sunday. If you are showing love to God by worship - that supersedes any commandment of the law and the prophets. Going to church on Sunday does NOT invalidate this all-encompassing Greater Law of Love. "
With talk like that methinks we need to burn some heretics here...
Amen on burning heretics, Ronco. That's the loving, caring thing to do, according to an old saying:
"If you build a fire for a man, he'll be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
"Sunday keepers ignore the biblical FACT that God commanded his own chosen people in one of his Ten Commandments to REMEMBER his Sabbath day, not to FORGET it."
Generalize much????
Not all Sunday keepers believe that. Though misinformed of what orthodox christianity teaches, some Sunday keepers keep Sunday as the Sabbath.
My grandparents both kept Sunday, they never worked on that day. I would not be surprised if I saw them among the firstfruits.
It's sad that so many sabbath and feast keepers are unable to separate from Armstrongism crap like in your post.
KM
The Sabbath
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'”
When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
Exodus 31:12-18, NIV
The only thing written in the hearts of Sunday keepers is error, ignorance, and a perverse hatred for God's laws. The “love” that they pretend to have does not extend to anyone who would actually dare to try to obey God. The Sunday keepers' “relationship” with Jesus is such that they call him Lord but do not do the things that he said. They reject the commandments of God in order to keep the traditions of men. They have a fine way of setting aside the commandments of God by using all sorts of illogical reasoning in order to observe their own unbiblical traditions.
Some who ought to know better by now like to call God's own teachings in the Bible “Armstrongism crap” because they know very well that calling it “God's crap” would make it much too obvious what sort of evil spirit is really behind them.
Sunday keepers might one day be very thankful to learn that they were simply not being called in this age, and will get their first real chance later. If they blow it then, they might be very happy to learn that they will just be burned up quickly and cease to exist. In their own “loving” teachings they like to think that anyone who does not go along with their unbiblical, man-made, pagan-based beliefs such as Sunday keeping will be cruelly tortured for all eternity by burning forever and ever in hell fire without actually being burned up.
Anon 9:11, David Koresh was a "sabbath keeper". So he was a Christian ?
"Some who ought to know better by now like to call God's own teachings in the Bible “Armstrongism crap” because they know very well that calling it “God's crap” would make it much too obvious what sort of evil spirit is really behind them."
The Armstrongism crap which I was referring to was the judging Sunday keepers, not the sabbath. You again, in your last post show that you are still a worshipper of Armstrong and his crap.
I've never called the sabbath crap, but your understanding of sabbath keeping and who are or aren't Christian is most certainly crap!
KM
9:11 is a perfect example of deception.
9:11 has no clue whatsoever:
1. On what the Sabbath's intent was for.
2. On who the Sabbath Day was instituted for.
3. WHY the Sabbath was instituted for the Israelites.
4. What Jesus did to fulfill the Sabbath.
5. How the Sabbath was fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus Christ.
6. WHAT The Sabbath rest is for a Christian in the Age of Grace.
7. The DIFFERENCE between Jewish and Gentile Christianity.
8. The Decisions of the Council as to the mandate of observances of the Law.
9. The Reason why observances of calender days were "shadows" of things to come.
10. What Jesus declared was finished, how it was finished, and what is now possible in the lives of a Christian, and how it relates to the Sabbath.
11. That British-Israelism, the tie-in that supposedly made USA Israelites and supposedly mandated to keep the Jewish Laws, is debunked and a false doctrine.
12. That Christians are not under the constraints of the Torah; but are under the laws of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
13. That error, ignorance, and a perverse hatred for God's laws is actually the main symptom of those who profess to keep the Sabbath on Saturday, but have no care or thought that they in no way, shape, or form are actually keeping the Sabbath as God commanded it. Their futile attempts of Sabbath Keeping break the very Sabbath they are trying to keep, due to their own ignorance and error. Those who rely on the law break it the very minute they attempt to keep it.
14. Daring to actually obey God would be to dare to keep the Sabbath exactly as prescribed. Doing so, however, would be the most difficult thing to do, in reality. So quick to judge others but cannot see the judgement they cast on themselves.
15. To say those who worship God on Sunday by "not doing the things he said" is pure ignorance. Go to your Bible, look at the Sabbath, and find the things you are not doing. You are quick to condemn others but ignorance of your own failures at law keeping.
16. You call the reasoning illogical because you do not understand what Jesus did, what he completed, what he disarmed, what he made obsolete, what He fulfilled, WHO He sent, WHAT He sent him for, HOW He lives in us now, what HE does IN Us, and WHEN he works in us which he did NOT do before Jesus completed his mission on Earth at the first coming. The only thing you see is Saturday/Sunday and nothing else. The ministry of the Holy Spirit under Jesus Christ is FAR beyond calender days, times, and seasons, or any way that mankind measures the passing of time because it is spiritual and timeless. It is a continual, lifelong relationship that is not constructed from sunset to sunset. The appointed time of a believer is ANYTIME, because of one simple fact: Christ In You, the Hope of Glory, and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit does not depend on a timeframe. The Israelites did not have this, because Christ had not yet come.
The difference between the OT and the NT is night and day thanks be to Jesus Christ. The minute you understand what Jesus Christ actually did and what the Holy Spirit is doing now, and how that relates to Christianity and Observances and everything else Armstrongism loved will lift that veil from your eyes faster than you can blink. Until then, the glass will remain foggy.
"Sunday keeping will be cruelly tortured for all eternity by burning forever and ever in hell fire without actually being burned up."
Obviously you don't know what "mainstream" Christianity teaches about hell. Hell to them is a separation from God, the torment is their understanding that they will never be in God's presence.
I think their understanding of hell is just as much "crap" as your understanding of God. Nonetheless, whether they understand the "truth" now is determined by God. So your judgement and condemnation of them shows that you don't understand that if one does have the "truth" it's not because of anything he has done.
We're all deserving of death, so your judgmental attitude is misplaced "crap"!
KM
Anon. 8:27
"Exo 34:28 - And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."
If you keep the sabbath because of the fourth command then you are under the Mt. Sinai covenant. The scripture above clearly says the ten commandments are the words of the Mt. Sinai covenant.
I keep the sabbath because Jesus said it was made for man, not because of the old covenant. Obviously you are still a member of one of the splinters and have no clue what the bible really teaches.
KM
"Observances and everything else Armstrongism loved will lift that veil from your eyes faster than you can blink. Until then, the glass will remain foggy."
While you're correct that the "glass" is still foggy for 9:11, unfortunately it's still foggy for you too.
Anyone who thinks that Col. 2:17 says the days "were" shadows rather than "are" shadows is still all fogged up!
KM
Anonymous on June 25, 2018 at 11:03 AM said...“Anon 9:11, David Koresh was a "sabbath keeper". So he was a Christian ?”
Nope!
All true Christians are Sabbath keepers, but not all Sabbath keepers are true Christians.
The command to remember the Sabbath day is only one of the Ten Commandments. There are other commandments against coveting other men's wives and committing adultery with them. The Branch Davidians reportedly had their wives commit adultery with David Koresh, who coveted them.
The Seventh Day Adventists fuss about the Sabbath commandment while ignoring the commandment against idolatry, and always insist on putting idolatrous Catholic hippie pictures in their magazines and books.
There were some very good reasons why HWA thought that the WCG was God's one and only true church on earth.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
KM -
you are focusing on are/were a shadow.
This verse says these are a shadow of "the things that WERE to come". Then it says:
"The REALITY, however, is found IN CHRIST."
Context, context, context.
Trying to get people to focus on Jesus Christ, rather than the observances of ritual ceremony and times and seasons was the most difficult thing probably to do. He made a specific point that there would be many people out there judging the believers based on what/how they observed days. His point was do not let them do that. He said "are" not "were" because the people doing the judging WERE keeping the days and times and thought that that was the important thing to do. The writer's focus is "don't let them do that", because even though they ARE keeping them, and thinking that they ARE important, these days WERE a shadow of what was to come - the REALITY of what the shadows pointed to is IN JESUS CHRIST.
The bottom line is, Jesus Christ - the reality - Christ in you - is what every day and observance and time and season pointed to - the rest that happens when the Holy Spirit dwells in and through you. I don't think the writer could have possibly made that any clearer.
Doesn't seem foggy to me.
I also wish to add this:
The concept of the now unimportance of "daykeeping" as promoted by Paul cannot be underestimated in measure of just how controversial such a theology was. In fact, the disputes between the importance of Mosaic/Jewish Law vs. Gentile Christianity as taught by Paul was one of the largest controversies to face the Early Church - and was a source of angst even between the various apostles, some of whom could not understand Paul's "hard to understand" teachings. These various differences of opinions are found not only in the different books of scripture - but are among the chief reasons the Judaizers of the law rely on "cherry-picking" and construing scriptures out of context to support their belief system.
These disputes of Jewish Law - or "the circumcision" - and Pauline theology - never really seemed to end. But it is clear through scripture that Paul's philosophy over and over in the chapters and the books written with his pen is Christ In You. In Acts, after a particularly heated struggle at the Jerusalem Council between what was expected with the new Gentile Converts, it was made clear there were only four expectations of them. The Holy Spirit was given to them freely, which shocked the "circumcision" because it was given in the absence of law-keeping. This was a major basis of why the decisionto handle the Gentiles was as it was as recorded in Acts 15.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jerusalem
"All true Christians are Sabbath keepers, but not all Sabbath keepers are true Christians."
Let's rephrase this to be biblically correct.
All True Christians have Jesus Christ In Them. But Not all People who Say they are Christians have Christ.
This is the biblical New Testament viewpoint.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Indwelling-Of-Christ
1 Corinthians 6:17
https://www.openbible.info/topics/who_am_i_in_christ
Professing “Christians” are on a slippery, sloppy slope into the abyss. A newspaper article quoted a homosexual as asking, “Why should we obey God's laws?” The homosexual claimed that [professing] Christians did not obey God's laws, and he specifically mentioned that they do not observe the Sabbath and that they eat pork.
The vast majority of professing Christians do not want to obey God. They each want to stubbornly insist on doing things their own way, and then pretend that they are somehow all so spiritual and good. These days, this extends even to some female lesbian church leaders taking part in LGBTQ pride parades and thinking that this makes them all so inclusive and loving and good.
Each professing “Christian”--having rejected God's opinion on various matters--will form his own ideas about what is right and wrong. And, for sure, they will be able to come up with many illogical, convoluted, gobbledygook “reasons” for their sinful and shameful rebellion against God.
Anon. 12:18
Yeah, that's what is says in the NIV, but not in the Greek. The days still point to Christ. The sabbath points to the millennium, 7 days of unleavened bread point to the 7,000 years that God has allotted mankind to come out of sin (I know, I know! How do I know it's 7,000 years? I don't. Remember symbolism.) Pentecost's seven week count also pictures the 7,000 year period before harvest. Atonement pictures Christ dying for our sins and also his roll in removing them as far as east is from west. (I tend to believe the azozel goat pictures Christ removing our sins from the presence of God) Tabernacles pictures mankind given 7,000 years to live in temporary physical bodies. Then the eighth day pictures when there is no more flesh and God's plan is complete.
So, if I'm correct the days still "are" shadows of things to "come" and Christ is the one who brings that substance about.
As far as getting people to focus on Jesus, I agree with you. Just look at how anon. 9:11 uses Moses to "prove" the sabbath.
Armstrongists still focus on the old covenant. Though I still keep the sabbath and feasts I understand my keeping them is but filthy rags. They do nothing to enhance my relationship with God and Jesus towards righteousness.
I understand that. Most acog members don't.
KM
Anon. 12:11 I don't know how long you've been keeping the sabbath but you have a lot to learn. I myself have been a sabbath keeper since the age of two, for 52 years.
What I learned a long time ago that you still need to learn is that your sabbath keeping is but filthy rags. It doesn't make you any more special than anyone else in the world.
You deserve death my friend, just as the "Sunday keepers" you're quick to judge.
If you believe that only sabbath keepers are true christians then you're turning the sabbath into a means of salvation. That is not the purpose of the sabbath.
If you're not careful you're going to find "Sunday keepers" in the kingdom of God and you thrust out.
Would it really upset you if Jimmy Swaggert, Jerry Falwell, etc. were in the first resurrection? If it would, you have a lot of Christian maturing to do.
KM
"The vast majority of professing Christians do not want to obey God. They each want to stubbornly insist on doing things their own way, and then pretend that they are somehow all so spiritual and good. "
Wow! That may be what your acog guru has told you but that sure isn't what the bible says.
The bible says no one can come to Jesus unless God calls them. To blame them for not being called is the epitome of self righteousness.
I really think you need to read Rom. 9-11. God decides who and when he'll call, to condemn someone for possibly being a "vessel of dishonor" temporarily is pharisaical.
You are the epitome of Armstrongism and its evil.
Kevin McMillen
OK 0 you go to the greek on Col 2:17. Let's look at the Expositor's Greek Commentary on this issue. I think this clearly indicates what is really being said here:
Colossians 2:17. This verse contains a hint of the fundamental argument of the Epistle to the Hebrews (cf. esp. Hebrews 8:5; Hebrews 10:1).—ὅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν μελλόντων. Whether ὅ or ἅ be read, the reference is to the whole of the ceremonial ordinances just mentioned. σκιὰ is “shadow,” not “sketch” (as Calvin and others). It is cast by the body, and therefore implies that there is a body, and while it resembles the body it is itself insubstantial. τ. μελλ. means the Christian dispensation, not (as Mey.) the still future Messianic kingdom, for, if so, the substance would still lie in the future, and the shadow would not be out of date. It is future from the point of view of Judaism.—τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ: “but the body belongs to Christ”. σῶμα is that which casts the shadow, therefore it existed contemporaneously with its manifestation, and, of course, according to the Jewish view, in heaven. It practically means what we should call “the substance,” and is chosen as the counterpart to σκιὰ, and with no reference to the Church or the glorified body of Christ. Since the substance belonged to Christ, it was foolish for Christians to hanker after the shadow. All that the most sanguine hoped to attain by asceticism and ceremonialism was possessed immediately in the possession of Christ.
It all points to Christ, whether now, or in the future. I don't see any tie in with this verse - even in the Greek - to any Armstrong-type "master plan" you are alluding to. Again - it's Christ. He's the focus, and the reality.
Anonymous on June 25, 2018 at 1:39 PM said...“What I learned a long time ago that you still need to learn is that your sabbath keeping is but filthy rags. It doesn't make you any more special than anyone else in the world.”
What you said is a very common misunderstanding that needs to be corrected right now.
Actually, proper Sabbath observance is right and good in God's sight. In fact, that is what God clearly said that he wants. Remember that God commanded it! And yet so many people, even ones supposedly in the so-called COGs, still “just don't get it!”
It is people's own Sunday keeping “righteousness” that is as filthy rags. They worship God in vain by teaching for doctrines the traditions of men while rejecting the commandments of God.
Exodus 19:5 says in the NIV, “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.” In the next chapter, Exodus 20, God gave his Ten Commandments which included the Sabbath commandment. As Psalm 147:19-20 says in the NIV, “He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.” Modern pagans like the Sunday keepers are a dime a dozen. In stark contrast, true Sabbath keepers are relatively rare and very special.
Of course, supposed “Sabbath keepers” who actually despise God's Sabbath, say that observing it is as filthy rags, and think that Sunday keeping is just as good if not even better, are not quite as special. In fact, they are too common these days.
I am a Christian and I attend a Pentecostal church every Sunday. I used to attend WCG every Saturday for 7 years and I met few Christians in Worldwide. Actions speak louder than words and that is why I Praise The Lord he helped me escape the Armstrong cult.
Anonymous on June 25, 2018 at 1:48 PM said...“The bible says no one can come to Jesus unless God calls them.”
Yes, that is what HWA had explained.
God is not calling the Sunday keepers at this time. Their very Sunday keeping is a SIGN that they are not converted. If they were, they would have the SIGN of the Sabbath. They are spiritually blind and cannot see how it makes any difference which day they keep, other than that they think everyone should observe Sunday and not the Sabbath.
"God is not calling the Sunday keepers at this time."
Rubbish. God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
"Their very Sunday keeping is a SIGN that they are not converted"
Rubbish. The sign of a Christian is love. "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples if you have love one for another."
"Actually, proper Sabbath observance is right and good in God's sight. In fact, that is what God clearly said that he wants. Remember that God commanded it! And yet so many people, even ones supposedly in the so-called COGs, still “just don't get it!”"
WHO Did God command it to? God commanded it as part of the Law of Moses, because they could not being cut off from God as Christ had not yet come, partake of the Sabbath rest available in Jesus Christ. It was a shadow of what was to come. This "just don't get it stuff"? No, what you do not get is Jesus Christ, or how Jesus fulfilled that law, or the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
" They are spiritually blind and cannot see how it makes any difference which day they keep, other than that they think everyone should observe Sunday and not the Sabbath."
No. What is spiritually blind is simply not focusing on Jesus. Jesus said HE is the way, and the truth, and the life. Jesus said that in HIM there is no condemnation. Jesus, over and over again, pointed to himself. The Sabbath pointed to Him. The Holy Days pointed to Him. Jesus is the reality. You can go on living in the way of life before Jesus came pretending He did absolutely nothing all you want to. This does not change the reality that it's all about Jesus, and His life through the Holy Spirit in us. The SIGN of a Christian in the New Testament is Christ IN us, working through us through faith in expressions of love through the Grace of God. You are quoting a Mosaic sign that is obsolete. The fulfillment is in Jesus, whose Spirit resides in Christians no matter what "day" they keep.
" Modern pagans like the Sunday keepers are a dime a dozen. In stark contrast, true Sabbath keepers are relatively rare and very special. "
This is cult mentality. You want to know what is special? You want to know what is amazing and good? Righteousness, peace, and love in the Holy Spirit. THAT is what is special. You have taken the Sabbath Day, which pointed to the Sabbath rest in Christ, and thrown Christ out in favor of the Sabbath Day over the Sabbath Rest. Focus on Jesus and maybe you too "will get it". But let me make it a little clearer.
Those in the Old Testament under the mosaic law did not have access to God. Jesus had not yet come, he had not completed what He was called to do. They did not yet have the Holy Spirit. Those in the New Testament, after Christ had died, and had been resurrected, DO have access to God, and the Holy Spirit, and DO have access to the Sabbath Rest that comes through God's Spirit. THIS makes all the difference in the world. Why then would we want to go back to what life was like pointing to Jesus Christ before Jesus came and fulfilled what He was sent to do? Jesus IS the reality. The Sabbath Pointed to HIM. We are now in a Continual Sabbath Rest because we have communion with Jesus Christ. Jesus IS the reality. The Sabbath day WAS the shadow. This does not mean you can't observe the Sabbath day if you want to. You're making it a salvation issue and saying everyone who doesn't keep it is lost. That's incorrect and patently UN- biblical under New Testament Christianity.
Prophecy from Isaiah 66:23-24, NIV:
“From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
What Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19, NIV:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
"God is not calling the Sunday keepers at this time."
So what? Does it matter to the way you live your life? Besides, how do you know who God is calling and who He isn't? Do you treat people differently based on whether you think they're being called? More often than not in LCG, I've seen John 6:44 used as an excuse for lazy evangelism. One member of the council once shrugged his shoulders and said, "We're doing all we can. If God isn't calling them, that's His prerogative." In other words, "If we're not growing, it's God's fault." Listen LCG, just buckle down, do what God instructs, and let Him take care of the rest.
Anonymous on June 25, 2018 at 11:37 AM said...“blah, blah, blah, about 16 times...”
...but did not give any actual Bible quotes to back up any of his theories.
https://bible.org/seriespage/14-not-abolish-fulfill-matthew-517-20
"Steve graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary with the Th.M and a Ph.D. in Old Testament Studies. He was assistant editor for the NET Bible translation. Currently he is a professor at Emmaus Bible College in Dubuque, Iowa. "
8:25 - Context.
WHO was Jesus talking to? The Jewish community.
WERE they still under the Law at that time? YES. Jesus had not yet completed his mission, nor was he resurrected.
WHEN was He talking to them? When the entirety of the Law was in force, including the Temple.
WHAT was the condition? Until everything was accomplished.
Was the Holy Spirit then yet administered as it was later on Pentecost? No.
Was he validating the importance of Law UNDER the Law, as they were? YES.
The point here is the importance of the perfection of keeping of the Law until everything was accomplished. Notice he said "not one jot nor one tittle". under the Law, perfect compliance was mandatory. The lesson here was crystal clear - those under the Law were required to live by the Law until everything was accomplished.
What were the words that Jesus said when Jesus died at the Cross? He said "It is finished". He accomplished exactly what he came to accomplish. He fulfilled the Law, disarmed the powers and principalities, ascended to the Father, and sent the Holy Spirit, and reconciled man to the Father - leading directly to the hoped blessed reunion of Jew and Gentile - an UNTHINKABLE thing in those days - something that could not have happened until "it was finished". In other words, Jesus was making a point about the Law to those UNDER the Law, AS THEY WERE, before He died at the cross and fulfilled the Law. As He said, he did not come to destroy the Law. He came to FULFILL the Law. And that is exactly what he did. Again. Context.
In the Isaiah text, you seem to be ill versed on the concept of allegory and illustrative text. Might be something to study.
I once mentioned the Sabbath to a guy who had been trained to be a minister in Sunday keeping churches. I later heard that this matter had really bothered him, and that he had spent a month looking into it. So I went and asked him if he had been able to find in the Bible where the day of rest had been changed from Sabbath to Sunday. He said that he could not find it in the Bible, but that other books explained how it had happened.
That seems to be what is happening here too. The Sunday keepers are not quoting from the Bible. They are simply repeating some nonsense that someone else put in their heads.
6:32 -
No, that is not what is happening here. This is what's happening:
Fundamentalist Sabbatarian Literalists love to cherry-pick scriptures without context. This is to fit their already made perceptions about the way things are. They love to directly quote scripture but completely ignore the context from what the scriptures say.
This is verified because the Literalist will call any other opinions besides their own "nonsense", like you did, without even studying into the reasons behind the comments.
As long as they simply "quote scripture" built upon their own privately interpreted bias and belief, they're fine. Yet the second that sound context comes into play, they close their ears and refuse to consider the context.
Now as far as what you say about not being able to find in the Bible where the day of rest had been changed from Sabbath to Sunday. No, the "DAY" never changed. The OT Sabbath, the "Day" will always be Saturday. It's not the "DAY" that changed. It is the reality that the Sabbath pointed to that changed. In the OT, the reality had not yet come. With Jesus, the reality did come. I'll use an analogy you would understand.
Black and White TV was glorious in it's time. You could see images in time move, it was a wonderful thing. Nothing was like it. Yet it was only a shadow to the reality of 4K color LED technology. Yet when you had Black and White TV, you could only imagine what the reality would be like. 60 years later, you have the reality of color TV. This does not mean black and white TV's are no longer there. They exist exactly as they always have. But their purpose has been completed by a newer, better form. The B&W has not changed. It always has, and always will be, a Black and white TV. It was excellent in it's time, and fulfilled it's purpose in it's time. But it was and is nothing like the technology we have now that is so much better.
You can point all you want to to the seventh-day Sabbath "Day" as not being changed to the reality of Jesus Christ in our hearts and lives through the power of the Holy Spirit that was sent down from above. No one is arguing that if you look for the "day", that it's changed - it has not, because you are looking only at the physical. When Jesus came, he introduced the spiritual and the revealing of faith which the "day" could not comprehend. What we have now is spiritual, and is only found in the rest through Jesus Christ - the Sabbath Rest that is only available IN CHRIST.
Cont....
Cont...
It's an upgrade to the Black and White TV you continually point to as unchanged. That is still there. You can watch the B&W all you want to. No one's denying you that prerogative. Enjoy. But it was only a shadow of the reality enjoyed today by those who understand the Sabbath Rest found in Christ Alone - in all of His brilliant 4K splendor, speaking in analogy. When Christ came, He gave us the gift of unparalleled reception, vibrant color, extreme stability, and no more v-hold or h-hold frustration. Though you will undoubtedly slam this comparison as short-sighted (it is, you can't possibly compare the Sabbath rest in Christ with a TV set), and nonsense, the concept isn't lost. No person is disputing the change in the day. What I am pointing to is the reality versus what is obsolete. and that you keep focusing on the change of day - not the entire change of not only the technology, but the method of transmission, "from analog to digital."
More power to you with your "black and white TV." You're missing out on a wonderful experience of amazing color, sharpness, and vision. No. The Black and White TV never changed. It will always be exactly what it was. But there is a better way in the reality existing you continually and emphatically ignore because you can't comprehend the whole world changed from analog to digital once the revealing of digital came. If you get my analogy. But of course, you'll just regard it all as nonsense - which is your freedom and choice.
Your argument that the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday is bogus. The Sabbath is the seventh day, sunset to sunset, not the first day of the week. The issue is, is the sabbath law still in effect? Nowhere in the NT church is the sabbath commandment given to the church, the other 9 of the Ten commandments are. The Law of Moses was given to one people, the Israelites, not to the Gentiles. The Law of Moses was limited in time (Sinai to Pentecost) and focus (Israelites, not Gentiles). Amos did not condemn the non Israelites for not observing the Law of Moses. Why? Because they were not commanded to do so.
I'm not sure who you are talking to - but I don't see anywhere anyone who argued the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Reprint the quote you're referring to, but I do not see it.
The argument I made is not about Saturday to Sunday. I think that was made very plain.
Anon. 3:43 said:
"What you said is a very common misunderstanding that needs to be corrected right now.
Actually, proper Sabbath observance is right and good in God's sight. In fact, that is what God clearly said that he wants. Remember that God commanded it! And yet so many people, even ones supposedly in the so-called COGs, still “just don't get it!”"
You're confusing the issues. Of course Sabbath keeping is good and right, I didn't say it wasn't. What I said was that your/my righteousness is as filthy rags.
You're the Sabbath keeper that just doesn't get it if you think your Sabbath keeping makes you righteous. That attitude is worse than the "un-called" Sunday keepers that you rant about.
The Pharisees kept the letter of the Sabbath better than you but that didn't make them righteous.
It doesn't matter how well you obey God's commands, that doesn't make you righteous. Only Jesus' shed blood can make one righteous.
I'm not saying that God doesn't expect us to obey, I'm saying if you're obeying to earn brownie points, if you're obeying to be seen by God as righteous. You're missing the entire point. You're in just as bad of a position, maybe worse, as those who left WCG.
At least those who left are beginning to understand something they didn't understand in WCG. Grace! The law without grace kills us. Not because the law is bad, but because we are weak, flesh.
WCG taught law and grace, but the majority just didn't get it. The vast majority became legalists. When the Tkach changes occurred the legalists either left for a splinter group, or went to the other ditch of licentious grace.
Some of us however learned that the law reveals that we are sinners in need of God's grace. That grace only comes through the shed blood of Jesus not through law keeping. Those few of us who understood haven't thrown out the law, but we don't worship it either.
There are times in life when one has to break the letter of the law, that's where grace and mercy come into play.
Remember those days of driving an hour or more on the Sabbath? You'll of course deny it, but that was breaking the letter of the law. David broke the letter of the Mt. Sinai law when he gave the shewbread to his men to eat. But Jesus said he was blameless. Why? It's called mercy and grace.
You're a legalist. I don't know if you'll ever understand the true purpose of the law, the purpose of grace, or why our righteousness, even in obeying God, is nothing but filthy rags.
Of course I'm sure you're one of those who pridefully sing that worthless song, "we are God's people, the chosen of the world"!
We should be singing songs that praise God not ourselves.
One last thing. I'm no longer going to respond to specific posts by anyone posting anonymously. The very least you can do is sign your post with a couple initials, even if they're not your real initials, so that we can know which anonymous posts are from the same person.
Kevin McMillen (KM)
LCG Expositor said:
"We're doing all we can. If God isn't calling them, that's His prerogative."
I understand that some use it as an excuse, but it's a clear biblical fact that only God calls.
The problem with the ones thinking their organization isn't growing because "God isn't calling" is that they are unwilling to admit that perhaps God is calling people to go elsewhere.
I'm a firm believer that God is willing to call anyone who really in their heart desires him.
KM
"Fundamentalist Sabbatarian Literalists love to cherry-pick scriptures without context. This is to fit their already made perceptions about the way things are. They love to directly quote scripture but completely ignore the context from what the scriptures say."
I can't let the above comment slide. So, "Sabbatarian Literalists" cherry-pick scriptures out of context?
How about "first day of the week"?
How about Rom. 14, which says nothing about the Sabbath or feasts, yet is used over and over against them. It says nothing about clean and unclean meat either but it's used as a proof text against both.
Also, Col.2:16,17 is used to claim that any day can be kept but that's not the context.
The context is, 30 years after Jesus' death the Colossians were being judged in eating, drinking, and in regards to "Jewish" days.
This has nothing to do with unclean meat unless you know of unclean drinks too. Also, just who is doing the judging? I have often asked this with no answer.
The context shows that these were uncircumcised gentiles either being judged for keeping these days or for not keeping these days.
Who would judge them for not keeping the days? You probably will says Jews, but why would Jews judge uncircumcised gentiles for not keeping days that they claimed to be their own? Jews teach that Noachides are not to keep the Sabbath and feasts. They must be circumcised first.
Nowhere does Paul tell the Colossians not to let anyone judge them for not being circumcised.
I can't stress enough that without being circumcised, Jews would not judge gentiles for not keeping "THEIR" days.
But, if gentiles were indeed keeping the Sabbath and feasts the Jews would certainly judge them. First for keeping them without being circucised, second for not obeying the "traditions of the fathers" which the entire context is about. Traditions.
Col. 2:16 actually proves that 30 years after Jesus' death gentiles were keeping the Sabbath and feasts. 1 Cor. 5:8 proves this too.
Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 16:2 are cherry-picked to prove Sunday worship yet they say no such thing.
The phrase "first day of the week" is a forced mis-translation. The Greek transliterated into English is "mia ton sabbaton" and what it's saying is "first the week" or "the first week"
Jesus died on Passover, the women arrived at the tomb at the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward "the first week".
If you remember after Passover there is a seven week count to Pentecost. Rather than the phrase "mia ton sabbaton" proving Sunday worship the correct """context""" reveals that they were counting weeks/sabbaths until Pentecost.
The context of Acts 20:7 and 1Cor. 16:2 shows the same because if you read Acts 20 and 1Cor. 16 you'll find it was just before Pentecost.
The facts are that anti-Sabbath keepers cherry-pick and use proof texts a whole lot more than we do.
KM
Anonymous on June 27, 2018 at 7:34 AM said...“The Pharisees kept the letter of the Sabbath better than you but that didn't make them righteous.”
What you said is yet another very common misunderstanding that needs to be corrected right now.
Some people seem to think that the Pharisees kept the law perfectly and yet were horrible people for it or in spite of it. This is not really what the Bible actually says at all. Keeping all of God's laws perfectly as intended would be the ideal situation. The Pharisees screwed up badly by not properly understanding or obeying the laws of God.
Check out Matthew 23:23-24 where Jesus said that the Pharisees tithed on tiny little spices (which was right) but that they had omitted the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. They strained out a gnat but swallowed a camel. In verse 28 Jesus said that on the outside they appeared to people as righteous but on the inside they were full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Check out Mark 7:1-13 where Jesus said that the Pharisees had let go of the commandments of God and were holding on to the traditions of men. Jesus gave the example of them having a fine way of setting aside the commandment to honor one's parents. They nullified the word of God by their traditions. Jesus said that they did many things like that.
Something went seriously wrong with the Pharisees and they ended up being the bad guys in the biblical stories. They pretended to be righteous but were actually wicked. They were hypocrites, or actors. Again, actually keeping all of God's perfect commandments as intended would be the ideal situation.
"What you said is yet another very common misunderstanding that needs to be corrected right now."
Since you feel the need to remain anonymous without even a couple initials to identify which anonymous posts ate yours your not worthing of a comment other than "you really need corrected right now". What a ridiculous comment "needs to be corrected right now". LOL
KM
"Some people seem to think that the Pharisees kept the law perfectly and yet were horrible people for it or in spite of it."
I hate to reply but I can't let this ignorant comment slide.
Where did I say the Pharisees kept the law perfectly? You even quoted what I said and still you wrote this.
I said the Pharisees kept the letter of the law better than you.
How you came up with "they kept the law perfectly" is beyond me and shows that you're out of your league here.
As I said in my first response, if you keep the Sabbath because the fourth commandment commands it, one day your faith will be shaken. The Ten Commandments were the words of the old covenant. If you are under the old covenant you're still in your sins.
Yes, I keep the Sabbath. I have for 52 years, but I keep it because Jesus said it was made for man not because of the Ten Commandments.
You really shouldn't be on here trying to teach the law because Paul spoke specifically about people like you:
1Ti 1:7 - Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
The law has absolutely nothing to do with salvation other than the fact that our breaking the law is the reason we need salvation.
Jesus did not give us the freedom to go out and break the law any time we want (one side of the ditch) nor do we keep the law to gain anything from God (the side of the ditch that you're in ).
It sounds to me like you're still young. Perhaps out of Living University or UCG's, or PCG's school. If so you really need to go back to your instructors. That is of course if they even understand the law.
KM
To the young Pharisee among us. You actually sound a little bit like a SDA. They worship the Sabbath. They believe the Sabbath has eternally existed and that it will continue into eternity.
I wonder why anyone in a glorified body will need the Sabbath. That is false doctrine.
The Sabbath was made for man, it didn't exist before man, and when we become spirit we will have no need for the Sabbath.
I remember once asking a SDA what he would think if he saw me shingling a roof on the Sabbath? He hen and hawed around then said I'd think you ill-prepared for the Sabbath.
Then I said what if I told you that it was a widows house that on Thursday night started leaking real bad and that a bad storm was in the forecast for Saturday night and it was a two day job to fix?
Then I told him that nevertheless it was none of his business what I did or didn't do on the Sabbath.
The law is not there to show you where your brother is sinning, it's there to show YOU what is sin. It's none of your business what anyone else does. This is why your judgemental attitude at the start, condemning Sunday keepers, is so damnable.
Worry about yourself not others.
KM
As an addendum to my earlier post saying the phrase "first day of the week" really means the first week I want to give a scripture that most theologians have no clue about.
Luk 6:1 - And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
The second sabbath after the first. They have no clue, but if you understand that this was during harvest time, they were plucking grain, and know they counted seven weeks. All it's saying is the "second week after the first", they were counting the weeks toward Pentecost.
KM
Anonymous on June 27, 2018 at 10:56 AM said...“The law is not there to show you where your brother is sinning, it's there to show YOU what is sin. It's none of your business what anyone else does. This is why your judgemental attitude at the start, condemning Sunday keepers, is so damnable.”
Here we go again. What you said is just one more very common misunderstanding that needs to be corrected right now.
God told his prophet Isaiah, “Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and to the house of Jacob their sins. For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God” (Isaiah 58:1-2, NIV). Notice the part in verses 13-14 about the Sabbath.
Would you dare to tell God, or his prophets, that what other people do is none of their business? Would you dare to tell God, or his prophets, that what you call their “judgmental attitude” is “damnable”? Or would that too clearly expose which side you are really on and what sort of spirit has really been behind your crazy talk for the last 52 years?
I remember once overhearing a Sunday keeper judge (wrongly) by saying that someone was not a good Christian because the person did not go to church on Sunday morning. When the person mentioned the Sabbath, another Sunday keeper actually started whining at the person, “Oh no, you're judging! You're not supposed to do that!”
People who waste their lives always trying to dream up far-fetched, made-up stories that they think are so clever, like your “roofing for widows on the Sabbath before a storm” nonsense, to try to argue that there are occasions when it would be wrong to obey God, and right to disobey him, typically end up disobeying him for some pretty flimsy reasons. Put a pail under the drip like even the hillbillies know how to do. I have seen your type before, and they come to a shameful end. Stop trying to search for, and make up, ridiculous excuses for doing things wrong, and start concentrating on trying to do things right for a change.
To "here we go again" "needs to be corrected right now" aka the poster that's afraid to reveal his name.
You are no Isaiah. I'm perfectly willing to say those who don't keep the sabbath are sinning, what I don't do is judge them for it, as you do.
Even the people on here who quit keeping the sabbath because of the sins of men, it's not your place to judge.
In your mind you may think you have the same calling as Isaiah but you best heed Jesus' words:
Luk 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
You, whatever your name is, are a modern day Pharisee. I can just see you standing at the street corner thanking God that you are not a sinner like the Sunday keepers.
As I said before you better watch out because you might one day see them in the Kingdom of God and you thrust out.
Mr. Pharisee I really think you need a lesson in humility.
1Co 10:12 - Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Heb 4:1 - Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 - For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Notice verse two, whether you like it or not it doesn't say "not being mixed with law keeping".
I'm not saying that we're not to keep the law, what I'm saying is that you elevate the law too high.
You really do need to correct your judgemental Pharisaical attitude "right now"!
Kevin McMillen (not afraid to put my name on my post)
"Would you dare to tell God, or his prophets, that what other people do is none of their business? Would you dare to tell God, or his prophets, that what you call their “judgmental attitude” is “damnable”? "
Now I'm beginning to think you might be Flurry or Pack or Malm or Thiel, it sounds like you think you're a prophet. What you are does start with a p but it's not a prophet.
Yes oh prophet anon. 4:37 I'm perfectly willing to stand before God and accuse you of being judgemental and that it's damnable. Especially when Jesus said, judge not, condemn not.
You were not judging or condemning Sunday keeping or Sabbath breaking, you were judging Sunday keepers. Big difference.I
You are one messed up individual and you really need to pray for God to correct that right now!
Kevin McMillen
Anonymous on June 27, 2018 at 6:13 PM said...“Yes oh prophet anon. 4:37 I'm perfectly willing to stand before God and accuse you of being judgemental and that it's damnable.”
Even more very common misunderstanding that needs to be corrected right now!!!!
Many people want to think that others must not say anything at all against anything bad or else they are “judging” and “condemning” and being nasty. That is a very common and important belief of wicked religious people these days. They think that if they do not say anything about other people's sins, then God will let them get away with their own sins and not judge them or condemn them. They are mistaken. Especially when they themselves actually never do stop wrongly judging and condemning others all the time.
If everybody always kept quiet about what the Bible teaches, and nobody ever said anything, then how could anyone ever learn the truth? Some few that God is calling might actually be thankful to hear the truth and to be set free from error and sin.
Is it wrong to say anything against Sunday keepers? Is it wrong to say anything against idolaters? Is it wrong to say anything against adulterers? Is it wrong to say anything against murderers? Is it wrong to say anything against homosexuals? Is it wrong to say anything against pedophiles? Where do you draw the line at what you feel free to judge? I have already noticed that you, like the Sunday keepers, feel free to do all the judging you want to do.
You said, “I'm perfectly willing to say those who don't keep the sabbath are sinning, what I don't do is judge them for it, as you do.” When you make the judgment that they are sinning, you ARE judging them and their conduct. You are judging that it is wrong. That is what I was pointing out too.
Forgive me for interjecting in this Sabbath v Sunday debate and getting back to the post.
There are some countries, eg UK and Norway, where 90% of the congregations still meet on Saturdays. What are they to make of this direction from GCI?
On the one hand Greg Williams says those meeting on Saturdays should switch to Sundays because this is the norm. Yet he also says congregations can hold services on any day of the week.
Typical CGI double speak. I always remember the sabbath after an article came out about the Sabbath. Man says to Deaconess "I'm so glad the church lets us work on Saturdays now". Deaconess replies "But the article didn't say that, it says only in extreme circumstances". She was going by what the article said. The man was going by the spirit of the article which emphasised exceptions instead of reinforcing the norm
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