Perhaps it is good for us to step back a bit and keep the Wildworld Church of God experience in perspective. In the whole scheme of the actual lives we find ourselves living. In reality, the Dave Packs, Gerald Flurrys, Ron Weinlands, Bob Thiels, and all the drama and trauma of and in the Churches of God are simply nothing and nobody. It doesn't matter what they think, believe or think as if anyone should hold them in high esteem as if they knew. They don't.
These men and their mistaken views of themselves as well as their devoted and seat gyrating followers will come and go like everyone and everything else. Nothing they wasted their time in church seeming to agree to and with will happen and if they don't wake up soon, they simply will conclude they wasted their lives on men who did not really know promoting falsehoods that were simply not so.
ALL the characters, the Patriarchs, the Prophets, the Priest, the Kings and the people of the Old Testament are long gone. All the Priests, Kings, Disciples, Apostles , Scoffers and Observers, True Believers and Apostates and fallen away from those beliefs are long gone.
Herbert Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, Joseph Tkach, Rod Meredith, Dean Blackwell, Dr Herman Hoeh, Ron Dart and many well known and unknown ministers, members and faithful old time supporters of the Church are all gone.
Ambassador College Pasadena is gone
Ambassador College Big Sandy is gone
Ambassador College Bricket Wood is gone
Of course, in the yet living there are the memories, the pain, conflict, regrets, bitternesses and stuckness so common in such life experiences. It also happens to Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Baptists, and Mormons, and all those who put themselves under the authority of others and let others do not only their thinking for them but provide them with beliefs necessary to join the group and stay in its good graces.
Too soon old, too late smart it seems all too often.
Here on Banned, we all well know each other pretty well. If not by name then by the style and manner in which we comment and share our pain, anger, rancor and even well thought out and helpful views, that actually stick to the topic of the posting from time to time, :)
So maybe take a quick break from all that and reflect on our place in it all. Humility over the arrogance of a Dave Pack or Gerald Flurry and love over fear and the rantings of those who think they speak for their god and don't really. After all, it is perfect love that casts out fear. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is fear and hate is it's calling card.
Peace.....
28 comments:
Calling Herman Hoeh a "Dr" is a bit of a s-t-r-e-t-c-h
Thank you for this post. I grew up in wcg. I was abused as a kid and life sucked under wcg. But as an adult I knew no other religion was even close to followimg rhe bible so I came back to ucg many years later.
I would have walked our the door after the first few visits if we had not been treated so well. So much kindness support and caring. My wife and I really needed it.
But like anything else the support doesn't help much when you start asking difficult questions and start disagreeing. And I found the support was conditional at some level.
But then we found others that had left wig and other groups for the exact same reason we were having trouble. And I realized it was nice to have people to meet with where we could disagree and talk openly and truly look at the holy writings of god without fear of rejection or personal attack.
Then I found the true value of cogwa... They pay for a hall for us to meet at.
I recommend everyone who keeps God's laws meet with a cog ... But don't back down for discussing the real truth. Bring it up and challenge each other. Invite your friends 1ho have no group to visit on the Sabbath at the local cog hall. Bought and payed for by the cogs. Sometimes there are actually good messages. And we talk about them.
If there is a poor quality message we disect it. We plan discussions in advance as well.
And a side effect of this is I am building courage to stand up for what God's truth really is, not corporate double speak, and I am learning to be patient, forgiving and kind to my fellow brothers in the faith.
Just because some leaders in the past were wretches doea that mean we should run away? No. I say stay as long as you can. Be humble and being in as many rejected and off cast people as you can.
Teach them that tithing is stealing,(only Levites are commanded by god to receive the tithe) and that obeying god through instructions of righteousness from the bible is the narrow path. Not blindly following a man. And then see what happens.
I enjoy meeting with people that have cast off the bondage of the corporate church and yet we have a nice place to meet every week and also influence others who have not heard a well considered and humble critoque of our teachings.
Ask a cog member "what does the bible say about this?" Its amazing how many will join you in opening their bibles right there on the spot and look with you.
Be ready to be wrong with them. And their eyes will open. The most powerful hung I've said to a cog memeber when we were discussing how the church was wrong about something was "I guess I was wrong about that" right along with them when you truly are wrong too.
Now it's both of you working together towards the truth. And not you trying turn against something.
Peace, love and patience too everyone has to include cog members or you are part of the problem.
good post...in other words, "get over it", move on with your life, you can't change anything in the past.
constantly whining about what happened only prolongs the pain.
Hatred is love turned inside out. It's a response to pain, pain that is usually caused by someone you love. Apathy, a total lack of concern for, or ambivalence towards another, is the true opposite of love.
Writing has always been a hobby for me. I studied Journalism, wrote letters to the editors of newspapers and magazines and saw them published, and submitted articles to some of my favorite publications over the years. And, of course, there were many essays in school, and the unavoidable business letters throughout my career. So, the Armstrong dissident forums and blogs seemed like a natural vehicle for reaching out to old friends, for sharing the angst caused by our former belief system, and for demonstrating that recovery and enjoying a balanced and normal life is possible, if you make that a priority. There were only a few I've met along the way who seemed to have a long-lasting nearly blinding anger, and I'm happy to say that most of them seem to have noticeably toned down the anger, and mellowed. The more that was taken from them, the greater the rage. Obviously, many practicing Armstrongites who happen to visit will make strawmen out of the excessively angry, and will assume that all of us are that way.
Humility is something that has to come naturally. If you affect it, or try to cultivate it, it always comes off as being bogus. Sometimes the best approach is simply knowing what not to say. In holding back, you are avoiding pushing someone's buttons, and you are helping to break bad cycles. This is quite the opposite of what we were taught in Armstrongism. We parroted the approved opinions, and were very assertive with them as if they were the only right ones, ones that God Himself would be enforcing very soon. . Graciousness was not something normally practiced, unless you want to define cowering before the ministers as somehow being gracious.
I've watched our little community be mutually therapeutic for the people willing to be in the fishbowl, and exposed to observation. Most of the regulars are people people, and care about and for others. I'm sure that even some of the trolls care for fellow man. There have been a few trolls who changed their approach, and actually became serious participants in the discussions. Now that is downright inspiring! It demonstrates that nobody is completely hopeless or incorrigible.
BB
10.38 PM
Yours is a minority view. I would need a body of evidence to change my mind.
"What is man that thou art mindful of him..."
Byker, I appreciate your 11:42 PM comments. My parents would be horrified if they knew that I participate on this forum, and my father might even face problems as a minister if his church knew about me. At the very least, our family could be broken apart. This is one reason why I value the anonymity the forum allows. Yes, it permits a few trolls (I'm looking at you, Jim!), but even those trolls eventually read enough that it has to prick their conscience.
All churches keep some of the Bible. No churches keep all of it.
For example, I have never (intentionally) worn tassels on my garments.
I "light fires" (use the microwave and stove) on the Sabbath and turn light switches off and on.
Some non COGs keep the OT Holy Days - sometimes the same way as COGs do, sometimes different - but no one I know of is offering the required animal sacrifices - which pre-date the temple.
HWA promoted that he/WCG were the only ones following the Bible, and yet we know adultery was condoned if you were high up.
God's government WCG practiced was really a Midian's priests recommendation that Moses followed, with changes to suit a top down enforced structure. The apostles told the church members to choose the deacons for them - one of many hard to explain away scriptures.
Yes, 6:25, I faced some of those same issues, also being a PK, which is why I use a screen name that reflects a life-long hobby. What’s really funny is that about 6 months ago, I received a family-wide email, and I was listed under my screen name, spelled the same way, as being one of the recipients.
If my secret is out, at least they realize that I’ve never trashed the family, and have protected their ACOG social lives and status by keeping my ID obscure.
There are some families who would consider one of their members who even reads here as being Judas Iscariot! They can’t help it. We just have to realize that, to use one of their own cliches, they’ve been deceived.
Great to have you aboard. Hope life is good to you!
BB
Dennis:
What do you want your tombstone to say?
BB, are you on Facebook? It's my greatest outlet for my compulsion to communicate. I keep my friend list small and manageable but would welcome you on it. It's a rare day that I don't write something.
Sagan's pale blue dot. One of my favorites. I enjoy these kind of music videos, simple and elegant.
Pale Blue Dot
2001 redux
Gratitude
Salvation?
DBP
Ton to, I like Huxley's "sit down before the facts..." Quote
BB
You have given out too many personnel details for members to not know your identity.
As they used to say on the X Files series "someone's always listening."
Tonto
If I was to attend Dennis's funeral, I would say something like "I debated Dennis the spiritual menace many times on Banned. He was a nice fella. I advised him to spend his remaining twilight years with a nice lady rather than writing on Banned. He could have bought himself an OK yacht for a few thousand dollars, and sailed the Caribbean with his lovely lady - watch out for the pirates though. But now it's too late. Presently he's trying to convince the angels that God doesn't exist and that the bible is a fraud. Farewell Dennis."
Repent you unbelievers!!!
Here are 40 fulfilled prophecies as documented by Marion McNair (oops sorry - unfulfilled)
Following is a list of forty major ill-fated predictions from Armstrong's school of the prophets-1947-1972.
I. There has been no "World Explosion" in Palestine.
2. The Pope did not move the Vatican.
3. There was no showdown between Pope Pius Xll and Stalin.
4. People world-wide were not "compelled" to worship the Catholic Church.
5. There was no 20-year war in Korea.
6. The end of the world was not near in 1944.
7. Japan has not turned against the U.S.
8. The U.S. was not toppled by drought in 1975.
9. National disasters did not start for the U.S. in 1972.
10. America and Britain did not go into slavery in 1972.
11. America and Britain were not practicing cannibalism by 1972.
12. The global earth has not been shaken by devastating earthquakes.
13. U.S. trade embargo did not occur in 1965.
14 . The U.S. was not doomed by an attack from Germany in 1972 or 1974.
15. There has not been worldwide weather disaster.
l6. Red China did not invade India in the spring of 1960.
17. The U.S. did not enter the world's worst depression in 1972.
18. The U.S. "DID" have it's biggest BOOM in the mid 60's.
19. Europe did not smash Russia.
20. There has been no worldwide volcanic disaster.
21. Dallas, Chicago, St. Louis-The U.S. and Britain were not destroyed by 1975.
22. One hundred thousand of Armstrong's members did not flee to Petra in 1972.
23. Trade war did not occur in 1964.
24. The Pope did not stage a fake resurrection of Hitler.
25. Hitler and the Pope did not seize control of the world.
26. There were no manned space platforms in 1970.
27. Dead bodies were not piled knee keep on America's super-highways by 1969.
28. Armstrong could not stay on the ship stations located off the British Isles.
29. There has been no pestilence scare in the ?O's.
30. Sixty-million Americans did not die of starvation by 1972.
31. The Armstrong broad cast did not "go out from Jerusalem," as prophesied.
32. The Jews did not demolish the Dome of the Rock (Al Aksa).
33. The Jews did not build a temple on that spot (Al Aksa).
34. The "Great Tribulation" did not strike.
35. The Germans and Arabs did not fight the NEXT BIG WAR.
36. Jordan was not broken into three parts.
37. Israel did not build a highway from Haifi to Petra and thence to Jerusalem.
38. There was no H-Bomb war in I 972.
39. Britain did not lose Gibralter.
40. World War Ill did not break out in 1972.
That is a partial list of the prophesies which came out of Armstrong's school of the prophets-predictions which just
didn't happen. Very few, if any, events which they specifically prophesied came remotely close to being accurate though some were contorted so as to give the ILLUSION of fulfillment. John Kiez, Armstrong's most loyal and lasting friend in the old line Church of God, most aptly evaluates the "spirit of prophecy" which permeates the Armstrong organization.
"When one claims that he has been ordained of God, baptized by Jesus Christ ... and dares to tell in specific, point-by-point, and in detailed order, the events that are to occur, the real meaning of the mysterious books of prophecy ... he ought not to have made predictions which have never come to pass ... " ... Armstrong and his fe llow-writers have written articles ... stating that no one but he and his group understand these things ... " ... and if he is God's true prophet for these times, he should never have made such predictions as have miserably failed" (Radio Church of God Vs. Church of God, 7th Day-John Kiez).
Of course the real test comes from God's Word. Read it in Deuteronomy 18 :22, "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
Strange how some judgmental bigots never stop classifying some people as trolls.
Dennis Diehl's BLAH spot is as much as a waste of life as COG offshoots and a continuous saga of (who gives a >s<) what Dennis thinks. It's like watching Days of Our Lives. You can go away and not watch it for 30 years, and come back and you didn't miss anything. Just everyone got older. Seriously Dennis, is this your only life? Pitiful.
Give me a call 946 anytime. 864 905 9506. Home evenings after work. Be happy to chat about our lives and perspectives
That was a trail of breadcrumbs, 2:20, left for past AC and Pasadena friends whom I wanted to be able to guess my identity. Others and myself even posted pictures at one discussion venue about 7-8 years ago. Really, I never had a huge profile, and to my knowledge, nobody ever hasseled the family members still in one of the ACOGs, which is all I cared about.
Getting more personal has the potential to be of greater help to people who are looking for solutions and a way out. Real life examples demonstrate that there is post-Armstrong life possible, a stable and generally happy basically normal one which does not include the downward spiral which the ministers taught was inevitable for those who realized what was really going on, and left. There is no need to allow these ministers to psych you out in ways that become self-fulfilling prophecy. In most cases, there is an environment in which each of us can thrive. You just have to find it.
BB
Thanks for the invite, Allen. Believe me, I really do appreciate it. But I’m not on Facebook. That may change if I ever retire, but for now I’m generally on a short budget with my time.
BB
“Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads or you shall learn nothing.”
― Thomas Henry Huxley
Tonto
Thomas Huxley's statement is the same as the bibles 'you shall know them by their fruits' and Christ's 'for of such (little children) is the kingdom of Heaven,' Matthew 19.14.
Many philosophers, including present day ones, 'steal' their ideas from the bible.
I prefer the original to the copy. That God said it, gives it more punch.
Is that # open to all of us?
425, Anonymous said...
Tonto
Thomas Huxley's statement is the same as the bibles 'you shall know them by their fruits' and Christ's 'for of such (little children) is the kingdom of Heaven,' Matthew 19.14.
Many philosophers, including present day ones, 'steal' their ideas from the bible.
That's ridiculous. There is no correlation between the scriptures and the intent of Huxley's statement. No philosophers steal their ideas from the Bible. There may be similar ideas or concepts expressed as both can speak of similar human experiences from time to time, but your idea that the Bible is the original idea is simply mistaken and not similar in any way to what Huxley was saying
Dennis
'You shall know them by their fruits' means:
a the evidence.
b reason applied to the evidence, ie, the scientific method.
As usual, you slip into minister mode with your 'that's ridiculous.'
You offer no information or line of reasoning, only invalidation from argument from authority. It's not true cause de-facto minister Dennis says so, and his words are words from the mouth of God. His Highness Dennis has spoken.
The Bible precedes Huxley and friends by 2000 years, so I don't think it unreasonable for them to have learnt from it. From my own readings, I've noticed the similarity of the bible and modern day philosophers. For instance, 'you shall know them by their fruits' is also the correct view of concepts, ie, reality is the world as perceived by the five senses. Philosophy books claim that this is a twentieth century discovery. They claim that Aristotle came close, but only modern philosophers got it right. It's this that's ridiculous.
Anon 4:25, you give your god credit for the origin of Huxley's statement: “Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads or you shall learn nothing.” That fact, you say, "gives it more punch."
Fair enough. Let me call attention to the advice to follow "to whatever abyss Nature leads." In other words, if the evidence leads to the conclusion that the Universe is 13.8 billion years old, we should give up our preconceived notion that it began six thousand years ago. If the evidence says there was no worldwide flood within historical times, we have to give up that preconceived notion. I stacked up enough such incompatible notions to lead me first to the abyss that Herbert W Armstrong could not possibly be an apostle of the god he claimed as his. From there I was led to the abyss that there might not be any god at all to lead any apostle at all.
In other words, instead of the preconceived notion "the Bible proves itself," I was led to the abyss, "The bible disproves itself."
The joking oxymoron "Thank god I'm an atheist" finally makes sense.
Retired Prof
Daniel 4.17 "..God sets over them (kingdoms) the basest of men."
Which means Herb can't be ruled out because of his evil character and deeds.
As for your earlier point, I used to ponder in my early days whether I'm deceived in believing in God and the Bible, with the unbelieving multitudes being right. But I acted on what I knew to be morally right, and voila, my prayers would be answered. There's getting around that. That's my experience.
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