Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Golly, I had no idea that people dressed up to listen to a radio. How times have changed. Hmm, I might put on my suit, listen to the radio, and see how it feels.
They used the computer program autotune on Herbs voice. The program corrects the harmonics in peoples voice, giving a far superior product. The Walt Disney movie Moana is a good example where this technology was used. It produces a slightly fake tone.
Notwithstanding the autotone, the clip is an accurate rendition of Herbert Armstrong's self incriminating statement. It's not the first time I have heard of this self condemning statement coming from the mouth of Herbert Armstrong. Long after I left the Church in 1976, I continued watching The World Tomorrow telecast to see what Armstrong was saying. Sometime in the 1980s before his death, I remember seeing Herbert Armstrong saying "If you don't see these things happening in the next 10 to 15 years, you will know I was false and the truth was not with me".
Time has proven that the truth was not with Herbert Armstrong.
"I want to tell you that all this weather disturbance means that a terrible famine is coming on the United States that is going to ruin us as a nation inside of less than 20 more years! Alright, I stuck my neck out, right there. You just wait 20 years and see if I told you the truth. If a man tells you what's going to happen, wait and see. If it doesn't happen he was not speaking the word of god, he was speaking out of his own mind. You watch and see whether these things happen. You see who's speaking to you my friends."
It was an unreasonable request, shifting the burden of proof onto us, basically saying we're supposed to believe him for 20 years before we can gather the evidence to prove or disprove him.
But unreasonable or not, we did it. We waited and we gathered that evidence anyway. In fact, we went above and beyond. He said less than 20 years. We waited at least 40 years. We waited, we watched, and we saw who was speaking to us.
Now we can all stop waiting, call in our chips, count them and determine with absolute certainty who won and who lost. No one has to wait any longer to reach a conclusion.
And the conclusion is, it didn't happen. We waited 20 years and it didn't happen, and we waited a generous margin of at least 20 more, just to be sure. There's no wiggle room left anymore. There's no room to quibble. There's no room left to demand the benefit of the doubt. We can say with certainty he did NOT tell us the truth. Therefore, by even his own accounting, he was not speaking words inspired by any trustworthy supernatural being, but just speaking lies out of his own mind.
Now, we know, on that particular prophecy (like so many others that xcogs still believe), which was Junk Food, HWA (and now the xcog leaders) did speak out of his (their) own mind.
Deu 18:20-22 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Anon, October 26, 2019 at 7:32 AM, wrote: "...And the conclusion is…We can say with certainty he did NOT tell us the truth. Therefore, by even his own accounting, he was not speaking words inspired by any trustworthy supernatural being, but just speaking lies out of his own mind..."
Or, could there be more to your conclusion? What about an untrustworthy, but consistent, supernatural being? Might there be such a thing(s)?
What did Jesus Christ say about the self-righteous religious leaders of His day? An example has been preserved for you, Anon...well, for all of us.
Matthew 13:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.
It appears that those scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites were driven by a supernatural being, which was not The God, Jesus' Father. Continuing:
:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. :29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Were those self-righteous leaders really thinking like that? Yes!
:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Was Jesus speaking about human beings someday experiencing "the damnation of hell?"
:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
And those are religious leaders thinking they do God a "good" service and supposedly striving to worship God in the best way they knew how! Or, was Jesus speaking to some principalities (Eph 6:12) that were working through those religious leaders? Continuing:
Which scribe, which Pharisee, when Jesus spoke to them scribes/Pharisees/hypocrites, was/were responsible for "...all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar?"
:35 "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
Every word that came out of HWA's mouth, similar to what may come out of our own mouths at times, was not Junk Food and lies, but a lot of it was and seemingly unbeknowns to him and us who heard those words at the time he spoke/wrote them. The milk from HWA, like the Sabbath, the Holydays, clean/unclean meats, etc. was not all Junk Food. I don't consider the knowledge about those "meats" to be "strong meat," Biblically-speaking.
If those religious leaders were not responsible for the shed blood of both Abel and Zacharias, then who was responsible?
It may help to remember that "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning..." (I John 3:8) and that there is a "...spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy..." (James 4:5).
Most of us still get caught up in the wrestling with flesh and blood, and turn a blind eye to what Jesus knew was causing so much grief in people's lives: "...the principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]…" of Ephesians 6
HWA is dead. At least he has the victory. He paid the wages of sin. Will we do the same?
Here is a reminder of the false prophet DAVE PACK IS AND HIS FAILED CHRIST RETURNS IN 3ish WEEKS FEAST 2018 TO FEAST 2019. These people are brainwashed cultists. Please help expose this goof. Thanks
What this proves is that HWA was a pathological liar who believed that the end justifies the means. Gods 'don't bare false witness against your neighbor' was pearls before swine. It's always bully morality that's in the driver's seat with Herbie, his ministers, and their boot lickers.
God addresses those who believe that bully morality is better than His laws in Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your (bully morality) ways, and my thoughts higher than your (bully morality) thoughts."
Actually, before HWA began to interject all of the "Uhs" while he searched for a forgotten word, and before he made his standard sermon the one about the two trees, he sounded very much like the audio on the clip.
Unfortunately, or fortunately as the case may be, when he had to take back over for GTA, Herbert was way past his prime. I'm thinking that that's the only HWA that some of you guys have in your memories. And that HWA would never have captured the sizeable radio audience which he had in the '50s and '60s.
If indeed the audio was speeded up, all that did was to make ol' Hog Jowls sound like he did back in 1956.
does anyone know the source of this clip? know its a long shot but curious
October 25, 2019 at 10:59 AM -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The clip is taken from this 2004 GCI documentary Called to Be Free The snippet starts at 5:05-5:41.
Anonymous 6:01 PM said, "What this proves is that HWA was a pathological liar who believed that the end justifies the means.
MY COMMENT - When I read this comment, I had to look up "pathological liar" before responding because the statement didn't sound right to me. I think Gary could have a whole post on "Was Herbert Armstrong a pathological liar?" and the majority here on Banned would probably respond saying yes.
Herbert Armstrong said in the clip "it is going to ruin the nation in less than 20 years". The statement is false and time now shows it was wrong, but is the lie a pathological lie? If I say after the 1983 Baltimore Orioles World Series win that in 20 years the Baltimore Orioles will win another World Series, organize a fanbase of like minded people to contribute to further the belief that the Orioles will return to the World Series in 20 years, and then it doesn't happen (which it didn't), it proves I am wrong, that my belief was wrong, but does that make me a "pathological" liar?
I truly believe Herbert Armstrong, wrong though he was, truly believed in what he said at the time. I believe Armstrong started out sincerely in the bottom of the Great Depression although I do know he announced to wife Loma that he found the family's new business when he pitched a Seventh Day Adventist minister a siding job and Armstrong was impressed by the fact that the minister had money. He was just completely wrong, and got into the religion business for the wrong reasons. Looking back, I think Armstrong was full of himself. I leave it to others and open the discussion as to whether his wrong prophetic beliefs and his motivation to enter the religion business were based on pathological lies.
It was all true.......................at that moment.
I was triggered by your "great depression" remark.
People should consider that John Steinbeck got a Nobel Prize for "The Grapes of Wrath."
People who understand what I am saying will understand the history of ACOG and the Zeitgeist of its origins. People who do not understand will accuse HWA of being a communist, a traitor or the exact opposite of being a conservative victorian or whatever they make up since they are not able to pinpoint the origin of their personal errors.
False prophecy was or became part of HWA's pathology. Judgment of him can only be based on perspective. In his own mind's eye, he probably saw all of what we know today as being false prophecies as having been delayed so that he would have more time to complete the work. He said as much, whether or not he was being totally honest with us. However, he had to have wondered, as enfeeblement crept up on him, why fulfillment of those prophecies was such an elusive thing. He is reported as having proclaimed that he finished "the work" before he died. Choosing a successor could have become totally inconsequential in his mind. We'll probably never know. We only witnessed the destruction of his empire, and another name added to the same list upon which William Miller and Harold Camping's names appear.
From a different perspective, from that of the codependents to his pathology, since the prophecies turned out to be false, and not fulfilled, as so many people who banked in them have now died just as has HWA, it appears to us that as a genuine Deut. 18 false prophet, HWA was a pathological liar.
The consequences of his actions are that behavior was induced or manipulated in ways that contributed to a lowering of the qualities of members' lives and psyches. Unnecessary fear and paranoia were introduced, as was impoverishment which resulted from all of the exploitation. Are you seriously going to achieve if you believe that all is going to come to an end in 1975, and then revised to the perrennial 3-5 years from now? He placed a bulletproof glass ceiling over the heads of his acolytes even as he preached the triumph of the human spirit. Being a member of the WCG was a constant conundrum, cognitive dissonance at its worst.
To the extent of their own education, and in the aftermath, people will place labels on this phenomenon in an effort to resolve the cognitive dissonance which was inflicted upon them. Pathological liar is not an inaccurate label, considering the negativity of the experience. The only other accurate label which comes to mind is "delusional". And, one is just as bad as the other from the perspective of HWA's followers.
There are a number of prophesy preachers from unrelated churches preaching the same or similar messages. The main thing the COGs have in common with them is being completely wrong - so far. But they all keep trying. Maybe they should learn the lesson from Jonah and say God changed His mind - decided not to destroy us after all.
Richard Your comment feels like a whitewash of HWA. This site has listed over 100 prophetic speculations of HWA that he portrayed as fact at the time. He said repeatedly over more than 40 years that "in the name of the living God, I tell you that we have only 3 to 5 short years left." He wrote that it didn't even enter his mind that people would take 1975 literally, though posters here have given quotes from his publications to the contrary.
How can HWA or anyone else "truly believe what he said at the time" if over 100 of their speculations proved wrong? Confidently portraying speculation as fact, especially to gullible religious sheep, is deceit and a betrayal of trust.
Technically Herbert Armstrong said that he finished "his" work that God gave him to do. Yes he did proclaim through the years that the gospel had gone out to all nations as a witness but that fulfillment in his mind was tied to the German led 10 nation European juggernaut that was going to overtake the US and Britain and then the rest of the world.
So feebleness and frailty had everything to do with the definitive change of term along with the witnessed in person statement that the greatest work lies ahead spoken by him in his last months.
The fulfillment of that prophecy to one extent is ongoing as we speak. That is by the many people affected one way or another by the experience of the WCG and its splinters.
The fulfillment of that prophecy to one extent is ongoing as we speak. That is by the many people affected one way or another by the experience of the WCG and its splinters.
Even if you generously define "affected" as meaning "read a magazine or watched a TV program" then the effect of HWA's work has proved to be minimal. Out of 7.5 billion people alive today, fewer than 10 million of them have seen an ACOG television program or read an ACOG magazine. That 10 million figure is a generous one, and the real reach may be less than half of that. But even if we go with the 10 million, it means that just 1 out of every 750 people has encountered ACOG preaching even in passing, and much of that would be the very watered down kind of preaching that plays down the real distinctive of Armstrongism.
Even if we focus only on the modern descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh, we're talking about no more than 600 million people, and a reach of less than 1 in 70. That's a pretty pathetic "Work" even though more than 2/3 of it still consists of people who encountered a vibrant WCG 30+ years ago, rather than the splinters. Ten years from now, fewer than 1 in 3,000 people around the world will ever have heard the ACOG message.
The tribulation did indeed come to those who listened to the World Tomorrow and became members. It's just that instead of affecting the people we pretended were Manassites and Ephraimites for 3-1/2 years, it affected Radio and Worldwide Church of God members for however long they remained members. Hubble Double never saved anyone from the tribulation. He wrote up his own tribulation and inserted it into his followers' lives.
You have obviously missed my many postings on how wcg ideology is the same that affects the entire world population today. I will repeat that ideology when I feel like it.
(hint one of the hwa acolytes just received a major award for "influencing the lives of 2 billion people)
For those who like to have fun and ARE knowledgeable about the GII flight path between 1970 and 1980, here's some fun, nothing to do with wcg of course unless you know the fly path and understand the reasons for the 100 or so decorations hwa received around the world.
You got to understand what is NOT in the memo and why prime minister Begin would halt government meetings to meet HWA who made the first direct flight from Cairo to Jerusalem.
WWCG and offshoots are so like the sdas who still follow their false prophet Ellen White. It is blindness born of authoritarian government and a refusal to evaluate these people honestly. Herbert was prophesying the great tribulation in 1972 while he was fleecing the flock and arranging to build Ambassador Auditorium. When the great tribulation didn't eventuate he blamed the people for coming up with the idea or believing it. He accepted no responsibility for what he had been banging on about so forcibly. He handled his prophetic failure dishonestly. He was a false prophet who used people for what he could get from them. There is no ability to think clearly and evaluate him with those who remain loyal supporters/worshippers. It is such a pity. No one should lord it over anyone they way Herbert lorded it over the people of the wwcg - they shouldn't have allowed it, but they did. Read the stoned stephen blog for a fair account of the history of this church and this man. Time to wake up everybody who still worships Herbert. Worship God instead.
Tess.... You should consider that the building plan was a set goal for the church from 1967 on. So your "blaming" remark is quite dumb. And your remark as if hwa was secretly scheming this huge expansion even stupid to the core. People had known since 1967 about expansion of the college ground as a primary goal. The plan itself was known since 1961.
A couple of quotes I came across this last week I thought applicable to the false prophet that was Herbert Armstrong and all like him.
Watching the latest TV remake of Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose Baskerville cautions his protege thus: “Fear prophets, Adso, and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them.”
Then reading Lamentations last Sabbath I read in 3:37 thus: "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?" (NIV).
We experienced the expansion of the college while I was a student in '66-'68. We didn't understand it because we were going to flee in'72, and Jesus was coming in '75, but the new classrooms were cool instead of having to meet in the Student Center. No knowing about his visit to Romania for an implant, or the "flog log", we did joke around as employees in the early '70s about the auditorium being "Herbie's Last Erection".
Bottom line is that when the Germans and Jesus never showed during the time for which HWA booked them without checking with them first, many of us realized that, yes, indeed, the joke was on us. Something that big? Frankly, you don't get three strikes. It's one strike and you're out! And, that's how I bought back and salvaged the last 45 years of my life. I regret the 19 I'd wasted, but, hey, every human whoever walked the face of the earth (except for Jesus) had some regrettable patches in their lives. And, some don't get to live 45 years, or even 19!
6:48 You are so right..... Whereas every sentence tess wrote is wrong even the one about sda's as my "uncle in Jesus" would testify, although he fills his Facebook page with white- isms which he says are in the Bible.
I do like BB's acknowledgement of his Vietnam generation. A gesture that warms my soul.
In retrospect, nck, Ambassador College wasn't a bad place to chill during the 'Nam and some of the other crap that had become mainstream amongst American youth of that era. They had a cool weight training area and track, which I used just about every evening before mandatory study hours. After all, we were living in the Southern California that the Beach Boys had made every young person's dream, and any time I could get my hands on a motorcycle or car, me and some buds would bomb out to the beach or up to the mountains. The chow was decent, there were some cute girls on campus, some of whom were also secret rebels, and some of the Imperial kids I had known from SEP were fun to party with.
In spite of the macabre message, the 1940s "sock hops" with big band, the occasional films from era of Nazi Germany, and the glorification of the classical music and Broadway show tunes which most young people threw in the garbage the minute Elvis and Chuck Berry had hit the scent, AC was kind of like a sanctuary for a while.
34 comments:
does anyone know the source of this clip? know its a long shot but curious
does anyone know the source of this audio? like the broadcast or sermon? know its a long shot
The audio has been speeded up. Kinda dishonest. Preaching terror religion while living in a mansion.
Golly, I had no idea that people dressed up to listen to a radio. How times have changed. Hmm, I might put on my suit, listen to the radio, and see how it feels.
They used the computer program autotune on Herbs voice. The program corrects the harmonics in peoples voice, giving a far superior product. The Walt Disney movie Moana is a good example where this technology was used. It produces a slightly fake tone.
Notwithstanding the autotone, the clip is an accurate rendition of Herbert Armstrong's self incriminating statement. It's not the first time I have heard of this self condemning statement coming from the mouth of Herbert Armstrong. Long after I left the Church in 1976, I continued watching The World Tomorrow telecast to see what Armstrong was saying. Sometime in the 1980s before his death, I remember seeing Herbert Armstrong saying "If you don't see these things happening in the next 10 to 15 years, you will know I was false and the truth was not with me".
Time has proven that the truth was not with Herbert Armstrong.
Richard
"I want to tell you that all this weather disturbance means that a terrible famine is coming on the United States that is going to ruin us as a nation inside of less than 20 more years! Alright, I stuck my neck out, right there. You just wait 20 years and see if I told you the truth. If a man tells you what's going to happen, wait and see. If it doesn't happen he was not speaking the word of god, he was speaking out of his own mind. You watch and see whether these things happen. You see who's speaking to you my friends."
It was an unreasonable request, shifting the burden of proof onto us, basically saying we're supposed to believe him for 20 years before we can gather the evidence to prove or disprove him.
But unreasonable or not, we did it. We waited and we gathered that evidence anyway. In fact, we went above and beyond. He said less than 20 years. We waited at least 40 years. We waited, we watched, and we saw who was speaking to us.
Now we can all stop waiting, call in our chips, count them and determine with absolute certainty who won and who lost. No one has to wait any longer to reach a conclusion.
And the conclusion is, it didn't happen. We waited 20 years and it didn't happen, and we waited a generous margin of at least 20 more, just to be sure. There's no wiggle room left anymore. There's no room to quibble. There's no room left to demand the benefit of the doubt. We can say with certainty he did NOT tell us the truth. Therefore, by even his own accounting, he was not speaking words inspired by any trustworthy supernatural being, but just speaking lies out of his own mind.
Now, we know, on that particular prophecy (like so many others that xcogs still believe), which was Junk Food, HWA (and now the xcog leaders) did speak out of his (their) own mind.
Time is telling...
John
Deu 18:20-22
But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Anon, October 26, 2019 at 7:32 AM, wrote: "...And the conclusion is…We can say with certainty he did NOT tell us the truth. Therefore, by even his own accounting, he was not speaking words inspired by any trustworthy supernatural being, but just speaking lies out of his own mind..."
Or, could there be more to your conclusion? What about an untrustworthy, but consistent, supernatural being? Might there be such a thing(s)?
What did Jesus Christ say about the self-righteous religious leaders of His day? An example has been preserved for you, Anon...well, for all of us.
Matthew 13:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.
It appears that those scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites were driven by a supernatural being, which was not The God, Jesus' Father. Continuing:
:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Were those self-righteous leaders really thinking like that? Yes!
:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Was Jesus speaking about human beings someday experiencing "the damnation of hell?"
:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
And those are religious leaders thinking they do God a "good" service and supposedly striving to worship God in the best way they knew how! Or, was Jesus speaking to some principalities (Eph 6:12) that were working through those religious leaders? Continuing:
Which scribe, which Pharisee, when Jesus spoke to them scribes/Pharisees/hypocrites, was/were responsible for "...all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar?"
:35 "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
Every word that came out of HWA's mouth, similar to what may come out of our own mouths at times, was not Junk Food and lies, but a lot of it was and seemingly unbeknowns to him and us who heard those words at the time he spoke/wrote them. The milk from HWA, like the Sabbath, the Holydays, clean/unclean meats, etc. was not all Junk Food. I don't consider the knowledge about those "meats" to be "strong meat," Biblically-speaking.
If those religious leaders were not responsible for the shed blood of both Abel and Zacharias, then who was responsible?
It may help to remember that "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning..." (I John 3:8) and that there is a "...spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy..." (James 4:5).
Most of us still get caught up in the wrestling with flesh and blood, and turn a blind eye to what Jesus knew was causing so much grief in people's lives: "...the principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]…" of Ephesians 6
HWA is dead. At least he has the victory. He paid the wages of sin. Will we do the same?
Time will tell...
John
The source of the clip is a film produced by Grace Communion International WCG. It is in ten parts available on Youtube.
Here is a reminder of the false prophet DAVE PACK IS AND HIS FAILED CHRIST RETURNS IN 3ish
WEEKS FEAST 2018 TO FEAST 2019. These people are brainwashed cultists. Please help expose this goof. Thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb5z_bwEFJA
John, the question is did you get any meat at all? From your postings I'd conclude not!
And John has spiritual food? Not!
What this proves is that HWA was a pathological liar who believed that the end justifies the means. Gods 'don't bare false witness against your neighbor' was pearls before swine. It's always bully morality that's in the driver's seat with Herbie, his ministers, and their boot lickers.
God addresses those who believe that bully morality is better than His laws in
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your (bully morality) ways, and my thoughts higher than your (bully morality) thoughts."
Actually, before HWA began to interject all of the "Uhs" while he searched for a forgotten word, and before he made his standard sermon the one about the two trees, he sounded very much like the audio on the clip.
Unfortunately, or fortunately as the case may be, when he had to take back over for GTA, Herbert was way past his prime. I'm thinking that that's the only HWA that some of you guys have in your memories. And that HWA would never have captured the sizeable radio audience which he had in the '50s and '60s.
If indeed the audio was speeded up, all that did was to make ol' Hog Jowls sound like he did back in 1956.
BB
Anonymous said...
does anyone know the source of this clip? know its a long shot but curious
October 25, 2019 at 10:59 AM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The clip is taken from this 2004 GCI documentary Called to Be Free The snippet starts at 5:05-5:41.
***CORRECTION***
I believe it's a Living Hope Ministries documentary not GCI.
Anonymous 6:01 PM said, "What this proves is that HWA was a pathological liar who believed that the end justifies the means.
MY COMMENT - When I read this comment, I had to look up "pathological liar" before responding because the statement didn't sound right to me. I think Gary could have a whole post on "Was Herbert Armstrong a pathological liar?" and the majority here on Banned would probably respond saying yes.
Herbert Armstrong said in the clip "it is going to ruin the nation in less than 20 years". The statement is false and time now shows it was wrong, but is the lie a pathological lie? If I say after the 1983 Baltimore Orioles World Series win that in 20 years the Baltimore Orioles will win another World Series, organize a fanbase of like minded people to contribute to further the belief that the Orioles will return to the World Series in 20 years, and then it doesn't happen (which it didn't), it proves I am wrong, that my belief was wrong, but does that make me a "pathological" liar?
I truly believe Herbert Armstrong, wrong though he was, truly believed in what he said at the time. I believe Armstrong started out sincerely in the bottom of the Great Depression although I do know he announced to wife Loma that he found the family's new business when he pitched a Seventh Day Adventist minister a siding job and Armstrong was impressed by the fact that the minister had money. He was just completely wrong, and got into the religion business for the wrong reasons. Looking back, I think Armstrong was full of himself. I leave it to others and open the discussion as to whether his wrong prophetic beliefs and his motivation to enter the religion business were based on pathological lies.
Richard
Well said Richard
It was all true.......................at that moment.
I was triggered by your "great depression" remark.
People should consider that John Steinbeck got a Nobel Prize for "The Grapes of Wrath."
People who understand what I am saying will understand the history of ACOG and the Zeitgeist of its origins. People who do not understand will accuse HWA of being a communist, a traitor or the exact opposite of being a conservative victorian or whatever they make up since they are not able to pinpoint the origin of their personal errors.
nck
False prophecy was or became part of HWA's pathology. Judgment of him can only be based on perspective. In his own mind's eye, he probably saw all of what we know today as being false prophecies as having been delayed so that he would have more time to complete the work. He said as much, whether or not he was being totally honest with us. However, he had to have wondered, as enfeeblement crept up on him, why fulfillment of those prophecies was such an elusive thing. He is reported as having proclaimed that he finished "the work" before he died. Choosing a successor could have become totally inconsequential in his mind. We'll probably never know. We only witnessed the destruction of his empire, and another name added to the same list upon which William Miller and Harold Camping's names appear.
From a different perspective, from that of the codependents to his pathology, since the prophecies turned out to be false, and not fulfilled, as so many people who banked in them have now died just as has HWA, it appears to us that as a genuine Deut. 18 false prophet, HWA was a pathological liar.
The consequences of his actions are that behavior was induced or manipulated in ways that contributed to a lowering of the qualities of members' lives and psyches. Unnecessary fear and paranoia were introduced, as was impoverishment which resulted from all of the exploitation. Are you seriously going to achieve if you believe that all is going to come to an end in 1975, and then revised to the perrennial 3-5 years from now? He placed a bulletproof glass ceiling over the heads of his acolytes even as he preached the triumph of the human spirit. Being a member of the WCG was a constant conundrum, cognitive dissonance at its worst.
To the extent of their own education, and in the aftermath, people will place labels on this phenomenon in an effort to resolve the cognitive dissonance which was inflicted upon them. Pathological liar is not an inaccurate label, considering the negativity of the experience. The only other accurate label which comes to mind is "delusional". And, one is just as bad as the other from the perspective of HWA's followers.
BB
There are a number of prophesy preachers from unrelated churches preaching the same or similar messages.
The main thing the COGs have in common with them is being completely wrong - so far. But they all keep trying.
Maybe they should learn the lesson from Jonah and say God changed His mind - decided not to destroy us after all.
Richard
Your comment feels like a whitewash of HWA. This site has listed over 100 prophetic speculations of HWA that he portrayed as fact at the time. He said repeatedly over more than 40 years that "in the name of the living God, I tell you that we have only 3 to 5 short years left." He wrote that it didn't even enter his mind that people would take 1975 literally, though posters here have given quotes from his publications to the contrary.
How can HWA or anyone else "truly believe what he said at the time" if over 100 of their speculations proved wrong? Confidently portraying speculation as fact, especially to gullible religious sheep, is deceit and a betrayal of trust.
Typical comment from HWA worshipping Nck.
Byker,
Technically Herbert Armstrong said that he finished "his" work that God gave him to do. Yes he did proclaim through the years that the gospel had gone out to all nations as a witness but that fulfillment in his mind was tied to the German led 10 nation European juggernaut that was going to overtake the US and Britain and then the rest of the world.
So feebleness and frailty had everything to do with the definitive change of term along with the witnessed in person statement that the greatest work lies ahead spoken by him in his last months.
The fulfillment of that prophecy to one extent is ongoing as we speak. That is by the many people affected one way or another by the experience of the WCG and its splinters.
The fulfillment of that prophecy to one extent is ongoing as we speak. That is by the many people affected one way or another by the experience of the WCG and its splinters.
Even if you generously define "affected" as meaning "read a magazine or watched a TV program" then the effect of HWA's work has proved to be minimal. Out of 7.5 billion people alive today, fewer than 10 million of them have seen an ACOG television program or read an ACOG magazine. That 10 million figure is a generous one, and the real reach may be less than half of that. But even if we go with the 10 million, it means that just 1 out of every 750 people has encountered ACOG preaching even in passing, and much of that would be the very watered down kind of preaching that plays down the real distinctive of Armstrongism.
Even if we focus only on the modern descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh, we're talking about no more than 600 million people, and a reach of less than 1 in 70. That's a pretty pathetic "Work" even though more than 2/3 of it still consists of people who encountered a vibrant WCG 30+ years ago, rather than the splinters. Ten years from now, fewer than 1 in 3,000 people around the world will ever have heard the ACOG message.
The tribulation did indeed come to those who listened to the World Tomorrow and became members. It's just that instead of affecting the people we pretended were Manassites and Ephraimites for 3-1/2 years, it affected Radio and Worldwide Church of God members for however long they remained members. Hubble Double never saved anyone from the tribulation. He wrote up his own tribulation and inserted it into his followers' lives.
BB
5:15
You have obviously missed my many postings on how wcg ideology is the same that affects the entire world population today. I will repeat that ideology when I feel like it.
(hint one of the hwa acolytes just received a major award for "influencing the lives of 2 billion people)
For those who like to have fun and ARE knowledgeable about the GII flight path between 1970 and 1980, here's some fun, nothing to do with wcg of course unless you know the fly path and understand the reasons for the 100 or so decorations hwa received around the world.
You got to understand what is NOT in the memo and why prime minister Begin would halt government meetings to meet HWA who made the first direct flight from Cairo to Jerusalem.
https://sriramk.com/memos/brzezinski-carter.pdf
nck
WWCG and offshoots are so like the sdas who still follow their false prophet Ellen White. It is blindness born of authoritarian government and a refusal to evaluate these people honestly. Herbert was prophesying the great tribulation in 1972 while he was fleecing the flock and arranging to build Ambassador Auditorium. When the great tribulation didn't eventuate he blamed the people for coming up with the idea or believing it. He accepted no responsibility for what he had been banging on about so forcibly. He handled his prophetic failure dishonestly. He was a false prophet who used people for what he could get from them. There is no ability to think clearly and evaluate him with those who remain loyal supporters/worshippers. It is such a pity. No one should lord it over anyone they way Herbert lorded it over the people of the wwcg - they shouldn't have allowed it, but they did. Read the stoned stephen blog for a fair account of the history of this church and this man. Time to wake up everybody who still worships Herbert. Worship God instead.
Tess....
You should consider that the building plan was a set goal for the church from 1967 on. So your "blaming" remark is quite dumb. And your remark as if hwa was secretly scheming this huge expansion even stupid to the core. People had known since 1967 about expansion of the college ground as a primary goal. The plan itself was known since 1961.
Nck
Nick are you jealous of tess bc she is a better writer than you?
A couple of quotes I came across this last week I thought applicable to the false prophet that was Herbert Armstrong and all like him.
Watching the latest TV remake of Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose Baskerville cautions his protege thus: “Fear prophets, Adso, and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them.”
Then reading Lamentations last Sabbath I read in 3:37 thus: "Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?" (NIV).
We experienced the expansion of the college while I was a student in '66-'68. We didn't understand it because we were going to flee in'72, and Jesus was coming in '75, but the new classrooms were cool instead of having to meet in the Student Center. No knowing about his visit to Romania for an implant, or the "flog log", we did joke around as employees in the early '70s about the auditorium being "Herbie's Last Erection".
Bottom line is that when the Germans and Jesus never showed during the time for which HWA booked them without checking with them first, many of us realized that, yes, indeed, the joke was on us. Something that big? Frankly, you don't get three strikes. It's one strike and you're out! And, that's how I bought back and salvaged the last 45 years of my life. I regret the 19 I'd wasted, but, hey, every human whoever walked the face of the earth (except for Jesus) had some regrettable patches in their lives. And, some don't get to live 45 years, or even 19!
BB
6:48
You are so right..... Whereas every sentence tess wrote is wrong even the one about sda's as my "uncle in Jesus" would testify, although he fills his Facebook page with white- isms which he says are in the Bible.
I do like BB's acknowledgement of his Vietnam generation. A gesture that warms my soul.
Nck
In retrospect, nck, Ambassador College wasn't a bad place to chill during the 'Nam and some of the other crap that had become mainstream amongst American youth of that era. They had a cool weight training area and track, which I used just about every evening before mandatory study hours. After all, we were living in the Southern California that the Beach Boys had made every young person's dream, and any time I could get my hands on a motorcycle or car, me and some buds would bomb out to the beach or up to the mountains. The chow was decent, there were some cute girls on campus, some of whom were also secret rebels, and some of the Imperial kids I had known from SEP were fun to party with.
In spite of the macabre message, the 1940s "sock hops" with big band, the occasional films from era of Nazi Germany, and the glorification of the classical music and Broadway show tunes which most young people threw in the garbage the minute Elvis and Chuck Berry had hit the scent, AC was kind of like a sanctuary for a while.
BB
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