The Philadelphia Church of God is well known for how perverted its teachings are that are currently destroying family relationships in and out of the church. They naively think they are doing this to please that creature they call god.
Here are excerpts from an article by PCG's Greg Nice about, "Must We Avoid Them?"
Some of God's people outside and perhaps even inside the Philadelphia Church of God think that the PCG has established a policy regarding cutting off fellowship with members who leave the faith-those the Bible describes as Laodicean-even their own family members. Not having fellowship with Laodiceans is NOT a policy established by the PCG. What the PCG does is teach and obey the doctrine established by God. Because this is a doctrine of God, it is therefore a policy of the Church; that is, the Church follows God's commands about restricting fellowship with people He has called and impregnated with His Holy Spirit and who then choose to walk contrary to their covenant with God.
The doctrines of the Church of God come directly from the word of God. Not having fellowship with those who turn away from God is directly commanded from one end of the Bible to the other. The doctrine predates mankind and will continue into the Kingdom of God.
It seems strange to some that God would expect one of His children to stop socializing with his or her own blood-related, physical family members if that person was begotten by God and then turned away. But why should an individual who has counseled for baptism and has studied the word of God find this strange? Read Matthew 10:35. lf you have a red-letter Bible, you will notice the words are in red. These are the words of Jesus Christ, not any man: "For I have come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."Verse 36 continues: "And a man's foes shalt be they of his own household."
This is a perfect example of why literalism is a pox upon the church.
Nice continues with this:
Most of those in the PCG or the Worldwide Church of God who studied prior to baptism were counseled to read Luke 14. Jesus Christ speaking again, says, "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh, not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple" (verse:33)."Forsake", according to Strong's Concordance, means bid farewell, take leave, send away. Isn't it clear that Christ makes some strong demands for an individual to be His disciple? starting with - verse 16, Christ begins this thought by talking about family, probably because this is one of the hardest things for a man to do: place his family secondary to something else. "If any man come to me, and hate [love less by comparison] not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. "Christ even mentions it before "hating" your own life. Christ is saying, To follow me, you might have to bid farewell to your own family. you might have to send them away.
In the baptism covenant in God's Church, the individual agrees to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Master'. They embrace what Jesus teaches as the supreme authority in their lives. They agree that no agreement or promise that they have ever made or will make, or any relationship they have, will supersede or intervene in them obeying Jesus Christ. If they have entered into that covenant, they simply cannot ignore what Christ says here in Luke 14 and Matthew 22.
Members ofthe PCG who are obeying Christ and the doctrine of cutting off contact with Laodicean family mernbers and friends are not doing it tightheartedty. Nor did they enter into their covenant with God lightheartedty. They understood these verses when they agreed to the baptism covenant. They can only presume that their Laodicean family members also understood when they made the same covenant.
They do not now "forsake" (as Luke 14 says) their family out of vengeance; they forsake them out of love. The Laodiceans entered into the very same covenant with God, and their eternal lives are at stake if they do not return to the covenant, not only will they be cut off now, but they will not have fellowship with their loved ones for etern ity! pcc members follow the doctrine of God and cut off fellowship with baptized family members at this time to send a strong warning that they need to repent. PCG members are not interested in just having a relationship with blood family members for the next 5, 10, 20 or 50 years in this physical life only'. They are interested in having a relationship with their family members for eternity. God's people are driven by the vision of eternity with God, not the present.
Even eating leaven bread during PCG's so-called holy days can lead to being cut off from family members.
There are more examples. In Exodus 2:15, God says that if you eat leavened bread during the Feast of uanleavened Bread, you are to be cut off for disobeying God. Many Laodiceans are now ignoring the Feast of Unleavened Bread after observing it for years. In Exodus 31:14, God says that if you are one of His people and you work on the Sabbath day, you are to be cut off from among His people. God is clear that anyone who forsakes Him and disobeys Him and does not repent is to be forsaken-to bring them to repentance.
A little later there is this:
Revelation 20:15 says that those not written in the book of life are permanently cut off. They are cast into the lake of fire and consumed. Each person who comes to that end was created by God. He loves those people more than we love our parents or our children. Yet God will cut them off for eternity. That is why He commands that we forsake them today: so they will wake up from forsaking Him-so that they will repent a nd not be cut off for eternity.
The entire reason God instituted and ordained this doctrine is love. God is love, and these are His words. The reason He stated them and preserved them for us is because He desires that all men come to salvation. God is not frivolous with those to whom He decides to impart His Hoty Spirit. If He called and gave your grandparent, parent, sibling or cousin the Holy Spirit, it is because He knew he or she could and should overcome Satan, society and self and become one of the firstfruits in His Kingdom.
lf we fail to avoid them or cut them off today, we are realtly doing it because we love ourselves, not because we truly love them. We would have to say, I didn't want to experience any hostility from you, so I ignored what the God of love instructed me to do. We must have the Kingdom of God vision, not be motivated by the here and now. Our desire is to have the relationshlp with Him for all eternity, not just for a few more fading physical years.
We must have faith that God had these instructions recorded in His Word for a reason. And we
must obey God in this matter. lt is a doctrine of God; it is not a policy of any man's organization that we might like to consider optiona.
A number of God's faithful people have family and friends who have turned away from God. We
should love them as God loves them. Let's follow His doctrine and avoid them until-and so that-they repent. God's way will lead to repentance. Doing it our way only leads to death. Forsaking, cutting off, stopping fettowship with those brethren who aie wirking contrary off God's way is the best for everyone involved because it is emulating the love of God.
63 comments:
Disfellowshipping only works on the odd occasion. Sometimes people slacken off on their pray and bible study, and the jolt of disfellowshipping can solve this particular problem. But in most cases the problem runs much deeper. Their falling away is the failure of a lifetime to live mortally. Disfellowshipping won't work in these cases. There's no point in cutting off their social support. It just being cruel.
Cult churches such as the Jehovah's Witnesses use disfellowshipping as a means of chaining their tithe payers to their group. It's all about control.
Don't PCG members bother to read their own Bibles?
We know about Laodicea because, like the other six cities mentioned in Revelation 2-3, it was on a well-known and regularly traveled mail route. Mail! That's communication! The people of these seven cities communicated with each other, even though they had markedly different failings as Christians.
Neither the writer of Revelation nor the residents of the other six cities taught us to "cut off" the Laodiceans. Gerald Flurry and his cult zombies are just making this stuff up!
This only applies to the lay members while ministers continue to live with their own adult children who have left the church. Ministers also continue having relationships with their laodicean family because they are exempted from this policy. Think about that before you cut off your own family.
Excerpts from an article by PCG's Greg Nice reveal the following helpful information for all of us, or rather for those inquiring minds wanting to know where/who the Laodiceans are today:
******
"...Members ofthe PCG who are obeying Christ and the doctrine of cutting off contact with Laodicean family mernbers and friends are not doing it tightheartedty..."
"...Laodicean family members also understood when they made the same covenant. ..."
"...Many Laodiceans are now ignoring the Feast of Unleavened Bread after observing it for years..."
******
That was very nice of Greg Nice to tell us where some of the Laodiceans are today. He just admitted that they exist among his own group of members: those sitting among them and not yet shunned, as well as those that have been shunned from them.
Could it be that the Laodiceans have been existing nicely within the misnamed group called the "Philadelphia" church of god all along, and unbeknownst to the rest of us?
Time will tell...
John
Without a doubt there is a policy of church discipline described principally in the writing of Paul. In some cases separation is prescribed. The salient question is whether or not the separation from the church of a family member must always imply a separation also from family relationship. That is not so clear.
The Elephant in the Room: The NT does not say much about relationships in the nuclear family. It seems focused on the spiritual family - brothers in Christ. So the question of do church relationships trump family relationships is not really asked or developed in the NT (that I can recall). This leaves a sort of "fill in the blank" possibility. It is certainly conceivable that family members may separate denominationally without separating familially. For instance, think of all the families in the USA that are separated over Donald Trump. Some can sit down to Thanksgiving Dinner together and some cannot. It really depends on whether they are able to sequester their beliefs for the ocassion of family fellowship.
Then there is the question of what are people being disfellowshipped for - some confused and unorthodox theology? Someone is being disfellowshipped over the Holy Days when the Holy Days are no longer in effect? And the use of the term "Laodicean" maybe just a colloquialism in this context. Is there a carefully exegeted definition that is anything more than ad hoc? Laodiceans were members of the Body of Christ. I am not sure how this term is even being used. It seems to be used to refer to someone who does not fully conform to church policy or belief or someones expectations. The term may have been converted into a multi-purpose epithet of judgmentalism. Like the term "unbalanced" at Ambassador College. If you wore a big western belt buckle and sang loudly at services, you were "unbalanced." Someone needs to develop a glossary of Splinter-Speak.
Maybe it is a fortuitous wake up call for someone to get disfellowshipped from a little apocalyptic Millerite sect immersed in the Old Testament and with a blurry view of Jesus.
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Goes both ways. Not all who are shunned are upset by being shunned. Being shunned means you don't have to tolerate idiots or fakes.
So shun away.
These folks don't understand how human nature actually works. I screwed up one time and was disfellowshipped. I really did not know whether or not I even wanted to come back, but what certainly helped bring me back was the friends who told me "I'm really sorry we can't get together with you at this time, but we miss you and really hope you will do everything you can to come back!"
The leaders always speak of bitterness and anger, but they fail to realize that they share in responsibility for those attitudes, based upon their methodology in handling the situation. Certainly, not all of these disfellowshipments are the same, however, in many cases where an individual is disfellowshipped and marked from the pulpit, first there is disbelief, then there is hurt, and then there is anger. That is the reaction cycle to virtually all slights, or negative impacts on our lives, be they religious or secular.
If you cause people to believe that they are expendable, it's going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It did become exactly that for hundreds of individuals who were mishandled by hard-assed ministers in a very ham-fisted way. Armstrongism had a high percentage of pass-throughs, most of which were the church's fault.
SING ALONG TIME! - Sing to the classic tune "Three Blind Mice"
Flurry blind Nice. Flurry blind Nice...
See the church they run. See how its run.
They all ran after Flurry’s crazy life,
Who cut out their heart and soul with a carving knife,
Did you ever see such a sight in your life?
As Flurry blind Nice?
I was kicked out of the PCG cult! I’m so proud to have been kicked out of a cult! I’m proud that I’m Not cult material, that my critical thinking was able to resurface. I’m happy that their own hypocrisies are what began the waking up process. But I’m sick to my stomach that I raised and indoctrinated children in that cult and now they have literally been stolen from me. I know they will eventualy wake up. Steve Hassan said most people leave cults. I’ll wait. But I’ll take every opportunity I can to speak about what they are. Shunning people is why they have so many enemies. They create their own Thorne in their side.
The practice of disfellowshipping, excommunicating or shunning is NOT Biblical! We can talk about what Paul did with the Corinthian Church, but we must first go to the source of TRUTH, Jesus Christ (the most perfect revelation/manifestation/representation of the Divinity known as the Father which mankind has EVER had access to). Christ said that he didn't want his followers lording it over each other and exercising the kind of authority traditionally manifested within human groups). He also told this parable to his disciples: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew. “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’ “‘An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed. “‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked. “‘No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.’” And I would very much like for anyone to attempt to justify the practice in the light of this parable from Christ. Please, someone try!
There is also the basic theology of how one becomes a Christian to consider. If God calls people into the Church, and Christ's sacrifice makes their admission to its ranks possible, and God gives those folks the gift of "his" Spirit, please explain how ANY human could possibly be justified in throwing someone out of GOD'S church? And how does one justify tossing one of GOD'S sheep out of the sheepfold where they are sure to be attacked by the roaring lion that we are told is constantly circling that enclosure just waiting for an opportunity to gobble someone up? How too do we explain John's admonishment of Diotrephes for putting people out of the Church if the practice was acceptable?
Finally, as for what Paul commanded at Corinth, I know that there are a great many folks who have wanted to assume the mantle of apostolic authority; but it appears to this commentator that it would be very presumptuous/arrogant for ANYONE alive today to lay claim to anything approaching the prestige and authority that the Apostle Paul enjoyed within the Gentile portion of the Church in the First Century! If one takes the time to actually study Paul's letters to the saints at Corinth (both of them), then it becomes obvious that he was very frustrated with a situation peculiar to that congregation which he regarded as an existential threat (their acceptance of an adulterous/incestuous relationship between two of their members). Moreover, as the second letter clearly demonstrates, Paul eventually relented (after the man repented) and pleaded with the congregation to forgive him and welcome him back into their ranks! On the subject of general church discipline, Paul instructed members to take note of people within the Church who were not following the teachings of Christ and avoid them (there is no sense in the original Greek of marking, disfellowshipping, excommunicating, throwing someone out of the Church or even shunning them in the way it is practiced among some folks today.
The fact is that this pernicious teaching originated in the human mind as influenced by Satan the Devil. Almighty God is NOT the author of this wickedness, and it's bordering on blasphemy to suggest that "he" is!
Greg Nice is NOT nice!
In the PCG, each lying, slandering, local tyrant gets to pass off his own satanic abuse as the government of God.
Gerald Flurry wants to cut off PCG members from anyone who could warn them about the massive doctrinal changes that he has made to what HWA had taught.
PCG shunning can actually help with some things.
The filthy old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators that the PCG cult is full of are then supposed to leave you alone and not even talk to you.
Woohoo!
The God of the Bible VERSUS Satan's False Prophet Gerald Flurry
What God said in the Ten Commandments in the Holy Bible: Honor your father and your mother.
What Satan's False Prophet Gerald Flurry said: Cut off all contact with your family members who do not worship That Runt.
A decent exposition by Nice but as always some salt is lacking. He doesn't (like many ministers) draw the line distinctly between a Philadelphian, a Laodicean and a reprobate. The first group is dedicated, faithful and commandment-keeping, the second group is lacking in zeal, good works, righteousness and spiritual eyesight (i.e., they can't see the higher truths because Satan is always introducing doubts which they take as reasonable), while the reprobates have renounced the faith, willfully break the law, and commit the gross sins mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 5:11. If we are not allowed to eat with the last group, they shouldn't be living with us in our homes. Yet if some in the church are doing that their own faith is being compromised, while they deceive themselves into thinking that they are doing a favour to a friend or relative, showing themselves to be hypocrites for allowing something for themselves which they wouldn't allow for someone else.
Today, the church is a mixed up jumbled mess of good and bad members and the borders have been blurred. This is a result of our many sins which the ministers are unwilling to accept because it would incriminate their decisions to split the church. (They call their schisms "amicable" while they condemn lay members for "bad attitudes" if they show any hint of doing what they did) So, the back-and-forth finger-pointing goes on between them, not realizing that they're all under condemnation for their stupidity.
Thus the REAL WORK can't go forward. The real work isn't about having an office, a TV program or a public outreach, or a pastor over every congregation. It's about testifying the gospel to as many as possible and regenerating the lost. It is about believing God's Words, keeping His law, fearing Him, expressing love toward the brethren, being in agreement, speaking truth, showing patience, helping members in distress, bearing no grudges (which even the ministers do when they don't write back), not to cast away those who have stumbled (not left) from the faith (noting the difference here), and to reprove sinners if they can take it. Unfortunately, today, there is so much corruption in the church that reproofs and rebukes are considered offences, whomever they come from. I sought to do this in my own congregation and my enemies turned out to be the ministers and members themselves, of the sullen and ill-tempered variety, who had their own ideas of how the work of faith should be done, and who were quick to judge something that they were unqualified to judge.
In church policies they talk about "working with" a sinning or dissenting member but how often is that done in practice? The ministers are too busy with office work to realize what they should be doing instead.
I notice you always comment here about the “sex perverts” etc. I seems like you either have an interesting story to tell or you are just angry and throwing out accusations. (Which I totally understand and am not judging). Just curious about your story.
It’s not Gods church and it’s not Gods work.they aren’t off track. It’s not Gods doctrine, HWA was not Gods apostle or any such thing.
Tonto at 9:26 AM said...“They all ran after Flurry’s crazy life, Who cut out their heart and soul with a carving knife, Did you ever see such a sight in your life?”
Your squaw “C” comes up with some good ones.
They equate leaving PCG to leaving Christ, which is actually the opposite. But, actually, when you leave the PCG, you get to have your eyes opened, your critical thinking is restored, you see the real message the Bible teaches, you truly know God, the Father and his Son, and the true love they have for you.
Because you're out of a cult.
12:05 "I notice you always comment here about the “sex perverts” etc. I seems like you either have an interesting story to tell or you are just angry and throwing out accusations."
I agree! All we ever here is this same old story with nothing to ever back it up. Sounds like a bitter old guy or woman who was rejected one too many times
The true church was called the Worldwide Church of God, then the Global Church of God, and know it is called the Restored Church of God
While I attended services,most of the ministers I had were of the belief that the wicked in the church had a right to sin.
I do not find this in my bible. Not only that, but the real sin was resisting these members. So rebuking these people was taboo and would result in abuse and threats from the ministers. That folks, is the state of the ACOGs. Which is why the endless splintering.
The We-have-a-right-to-sin churches of God.
**%*!^#)}:??<>&^%$@@#*!!%#&*!
God's ekklesia has never been encompassed within a single human organization/corporation - NEVER! The organizations which "True Christian" mentioned MAY have had a FEW individuals within their ranks who were also members of God's Church, but the majority of saints were/are outside of those groups! We can talk about what it means to be a Christian if you'd like - what it means to be a member of God's ekklesia (but membership within the Worldwide, Global, Restored, Philadelphia, United, Continuing, etc. AIN'T it!)
Wouldn't it be nice if the ghosts of Christmas past, present and future visited all the Armstrongite "Scrooge" apostles, prophets, witnesses, and whatever other titles these so-called leaders give themselves within the next couple of weeks??? It's difficult to imagine people like
Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland, Bob Theil, and the others actually becoming real human beings, thoughtful and compassionate, with consciences that prevent them from falsely prophesying, ripping off followers' blessings, destroying families, and making their members' lives a living hell.
God's true church? Anybody that believes that nonsense is a couple fijoles short of a burrito!
🤣you poor thing!
TC, you are the Banned court jester.
'The Shunning'
Sounds like a good title for the next Stephen King novel and movie.
PCG could you please send over a box of that "shunning" thing you have to offer so that we don't have to put up with warped idiots whose character has been deformed by warped teachings of the Flurry idiots, the petty dictators of their limited scope of influence and the usefull idiots enforcing idiocy, while who had real family in the first place nor developed a basic understanding what a family entails or how it functions besides the little dictatorship units they witness in their little 4000 strong "crazy bubble."
Nck
The Book of Revelation was sent to all seven churches, including LaodIcia. Same preacher, same flock, same church. The PCG is SATANIC.
Paul got a lot of his stuff from Philo of Alexandria. There is nothing new under the sun.
The PCG should be renamed to the homogeneous church of God. Homo, for short.
True Pagan is on the road to mental illness, just like his demon-possessed mentor Pack.
"Gerald Flurry wants to cut off PCG members from anyone who could warn them ..."
Gee, that sounds familiar. I know some health "experts" who do the same thing.
Gerald Flurry keeps insisting that 95% of the church fell away on HWAs death. The remaining faithful 5% are his church members. He must know that's a lie. It amounts to worshipping his own corporate church. To be fair, it's not dissimilar to how the other HWA ministers behaved while he was still alive, but that's no excuse. A Christian is one who follows Christ rather than a physical church.
10:56 Don't fall for 12:05 fake interest.
Flurry, just like historical tyrants like Stalin, Hitler or Jim Jones are obssesssed with power and control. Deep down, they know that their policy of marking and destroying families and relationships is wrong but out of their greed and lust for power, Flurry and his henchmen are convinced that they have the right to change Scripture. I know they want complete control because he is afraid of being exposed for what he truly is, a fraud and a counterfeit. Remember how he had a complete meltdown when Fox 25 did a story about the PCG.
Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:35:00 AM PST
Biblical disfellowshipping is not to be done by some kind or ministerial hierarchy. It's to be decided upon individually. If one feels a brother is openly sinning then they should avoid that person. It's their decision. And quite often they are wrong and doing so for selfish reasons!
Leave PCG alone long enough and they'll be a church of inbreeds, if they're not already.
Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 3:19:00 PM PST
Which group taught that?
If there aye seven church eras then the Philadelphia era ended well before the turn of the 20th century! Yeah, I said that right, before 1900. Everything else has been Laodicea! That is, if there really are church eras.
"hate [love less by comparison]" So when God hates sin, he doesn't really hate it, he loves it less by comparison.
Shun till your hearts content "Nck". Shun away.
We must recognize that disfellowshipping or excommunication in modern times is a denominational activity. It operates under the influence of a number of parameters. For instance, excommunication is an act of ejecting someone for rehabilitative purpose from the "one and only true church." Who in Christendom and Splinterdom can persuasively claim to be the one and only. In Paul's day one could identify the one an only true church. It was a small body of known believers with some audit trail back to the Apostles. This is not true today.
Instead, we have now what is called the Invisible Body of Christ. This means there are Christians scattered across many denominations that consist of both nominals and the truly converted. The truly converted are known to God and probably eachother. But it does not encompass the entire denominational membership. The truly converted may, in fact, be in the minority in some congregations. Perhaps, even the leadership is nominal. This is true of Splinterdom as well as Christianity.
When Paul excommunicated someone, he excommunicated them from the Body of Christ. Nowdays, that is not really possible. Because the Body of Christ is embedded in denominationalism - it does not have a single monlithic structure of earthly governance. I know it is hard for Splinterists to believe but each little apocalyptic Millerite organization that splintered off the WCG is just a denomination. I would even grant that there are probably still some true Christians entangled in this mess.
A case in point. Someone is disfellowshipped from Splinter A because they are in disagreement with some policy. And they go off and join Splinter B where such a policy issue does not exist. Both Splinter A and B claim to be the true church of God and have a pedigree that goes back to the WCG. Was that action really a disfellowshipping from the true Body of Christ like in Paul's days? Hardly. There are other issues that make disfellowshipping now a practice of a denomination rather than the true ekklesia. Until the ardent, resolute and persistent disfellowshippers can resolve some of these issues, disfellowshipping lacks the substance that they claim it has. They can start by trying to prove the highly implausible proposition that they are the one and only true church of God. Without that foundation, they may be just denominational hacks.
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4.42 AM
I agree. The WWCG calling itself Philadelphian was pure marketing.
It was not the church experience. Otherwise this blog would not exist.
So when God hates sin, he doesn't really hate it, he loves it less by comparison.
Exactly. If an 80-year-old man were to impregnate another man's fiancée, then abandon the woman and let her new husband raise the kid, God would call this out as behavior he hates.
But when a much older suitor does it to Mary, it's his Plan of Salvation.
More like 4000 weak. Gerry announced a couple weeks ago that they had 36 people leave last month alone! So a warm welcome to you if you are visiting this site trying to sort out the insanity you’ve been apart of! The PCG is dying👏🏼
Miller Jones said...
God's ekklesia has never been encompassed within a single human organization/corporation - NEVER!
Miller is exactly right!
Anonymous said...
Thursday, December 9, 2021 at 1:35:00 AM PST
Biblical disfellowshipping is not to be done by some kind or ministerial hierarchy. It's to be decided upon individually. If one feels a brother is openly sinning then they should avoid that person. It's their decision. And quite often they are wrong and doing so for selfish reasons!
Exactly right. That is what the Bible says in Romans 16. The brethren are to note those, and avoid them.
Nice is in error when he says that the word "hate" in Luke 14 means "love less by comparison". Wrong. Look it up. That word means despise, loathe, detest. How you fit that in with the rest of Jesus' teachings is another matter, but Nice is apparently ashamed of what Jesus actually said, and feels he has to change the meaning of the Greek word.
8:49???? You don't think of the opportunity to give physical birth to Jesus Christ as the most special honor, blessing, privilege a human woman could ever have? Mary would obviously beg to differ with you on that one!
8:49 said:
Exactly. If an 80-year-old man were to impregnate another man's fiancée, then abandon the woman and let her new husband raise the kid, God would call this out as behavior he hates.
But when a much older suitor does it to Mary, it's his Plan of Salvation.
===============================
Typical drivel of a foolish unthinking brainless person. You take too much on yourself. You don’t even know what you are talking about.
1. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing suggested. It is only the foolish interpretation of a dirty mind.
2. It was a special event for a very special reason. To make it possible for lowlifes like you to gain eternal life in spite of being carnal.
3. Obviously you don’t have a memory either. Don’t you read what the great Neo Therm taught you here? God is not physical, he has no form NOR BODY PARTS to perform your childish implication.
Oh, you also forgot the other stupid atheist like unthinking darkened mind slander, “oh, don’t you know that Mary was only a child of 13 at the time.”
Finally, we’re see you in eternity as friends and brothers when we all will have a CLEAN mind.
Comment above about a Fox 25 story on pcog. Looked it up. Troubling to read and frankly depressing. This could of been written yesterday and the points raised are still relevant now. They have not changed one iota.
The 'Good News' is that they are losing membership and their numbers from what I gather are around 4000.
Does anyone know their 'real' membership numbers?
2:02 PM wrote:
You don't think of the opportunity to give physical birth to Jesus Christ as the most special honor, blessing, privilege a human woman could ever have? Mary would obviously beg to differ with you on that one!
This just supports the earlier poster's point about God not really hating sin. Rape is sin, but being raped by God is really pretty nice. This is the same "logic" that lets cult leaders proclaim that lying is a sin, but that lying for GRF or Dave Pack is a special honor.
Oh, you also forgot the other stupid atheist like unthinking darkened mind slander, “oh, don’t you know that Mary was only a child of 13 at the time.”
Anon 2:29 PM is grasping at hate-straws with this one. In a society where many died young and there was no extended adolescence, marrying and giving birth in one's early teens was totally normal and expected.
Because of widespread disease and death, many married people became widows in their 20s. It wasn't unusual for a widower like Joseph to marry a young woman like Mary. An age difference of 20 years between husband and wife wasn't all that unusual.
However, the Jews considered it a sin for a man to have sex with a woman who was betrothed to another man. Which demonstrates the point 6:24 AM was making. God doesn't really hate sin; He even engages in it when He finds it convenient.
Lol you are right, and they actually think it’s funny sit down and talk about how everyone is related to everyone in the cult. That was always disturbing to me when they would do that. It reminded me of the mennonites, they would have to ship in people from other colonies because to many people were related to each other. The PCG doesn’t have that “luxury” 🤣
Anonymous 2:29 wrote, "Don’t you read what the great Neo Therm taught you here?"
This makes it sound like the understanding that God is incorporeal was developed by me. Far from it. It is orthodox Christian doctrine broadly recognized across many denominations. The only denominations that do not understand this in modern times are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Armstrongists. Do you see a trend?
As for Divine Simplicity, I like this statement from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
"According to the classical theism of Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas and their adherents, God is radically unlike creatures and cannot be adequately understood in ways appropriate to them. God is simple in that God transcends every form of complexity and composition familiar to the discursive intellect. One consequence is that the simple God lacks parts. This lack is not a deficiency but a positive feature. God is ontologically superior to every partite entity, and his partlessness is an index thereof."
You don't like the fact that I "taught" this idea (more like just referred to it). So maybe you would like to teach us something. Here is your topic: "How God came to have parts and their function." Write this up for us so we can see how "great" you are.
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4000 is erring on the generous side. That number includes children, mates who just come on occasion and suspended and ex members, whom they don’t remove from their data base for years!
I recently left and I can tell you that ALL local congregations are shrinking. People are dying off at a rapid rate. Which is to be expected given the average age of the members. They never print all the obituaries in the PN. At first I thought it was oversight then I realised it was intentional.
I think it’s really important to get this information out there because I remember as a member thinking that we were a big impactful organisation. That’s why keeping up appearances with their campus and the plane etc is so important in keeping the members from seeing what an insignificant, worthless high control group that they are.
Someone above made the observation that Flurry's claims in regards to 95% of the "church" falling away at HWA's death with 5% remaining "faithful" within the bounds of his church, amounts to him "worshiping his own corporate church." I agree. Flurry has put himself in the place of God, to judge others based solely on whether they follow him as a leader or remain loyal to him and his corporate church. In simple terms, this is a form of idolatry.
Unfortunately this is all too common within several of the COG groups. Flurry is more blatant about it than some of the others are, but it also exists within many of the other groups, or at least within the minds of their leaders. Some pay lip service to the notion that the body of Christ isn't confined to any one corporate group, while at the same time equating "faith" or "faithfulness" with loyalty to their own corporate group, or the man running it, which basically amounts to replacing Jesus Christ with that corporate group, or that man. Jesus then no longer retains the prerogative to place members within His body as He sees fit, but instead people are placed under the control or jurisdiction of the human leader of the corporate group, and to question, disagree, or leave that group or leader even to fellowship with another Sabbath keeping group, is tantamount to leaving the "church" or at the very least, choosing to mix with lesser "Laodicean" Christians.
Directly or indirectly branding those who attend other Sabbath keeping groups beyond the walls of one's own corporate group as "Laodicean" has been the practice among several of the COG groups for years, including but not limited to LCG, PCG, RCG, and others. This hasn't been done out of any sincere wish to protect or care for the people within these groups, but instead has become a way to manipulate and discourage people from mixing with others who might share similar beliefs, and encourage corporate loyalty, which is equated to Christian faithfulness, but is not the same thing at all.
What has come to be known as marking, disfellowshipping, or shunning has also in many cases come to be used as a political power play designed to keep people in line and quiet, even if they do have legitimate grievances, disagreements, or concerns. It has been used at times in an attempt to get rid of someone who might be seen as a threat to the established base of power within an organization. Get rid of the person or drive them out, and then tell everyone else not to contact or talk to them. You can spin the story of their departure any way you want to, and no one is allowed to hear the other side of the story, "for their own spiritual well being" of course.
These practices have served to help continue to split and scatter people into ever smaller denominational groups, which in all too many cases have primarily become personality cults, reflecting the beliefs, strengths, and inherent weaknesses and sins of men, rather than becoming congregations who practice brotherly love, and care for one another, and encourage each other to truly follow Jesus Christ, which is what we should all be doing.
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister, Friday, December 10, 2021 at 10:28:00 PM PST, said:
"...Someone above made the observation that Flurry's claims in regards to 95% of the "church" falling away at HWA's death with 5% remaining "faithful" within the bounds of his church, amounts to him "worshiping his own corporate church." I agree. Flurry has put himself in the place of God...this is a form of idolatry..."
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Why would Flurry do such a thing? Is Flurry another modern-day prophet of Baal (Master)?
Flurry, like Weston, Kubik, Franks, Pack, Thiel, Weinland, etc., hirelings of the former WCG, who left their WCG ministerial credentials behind, all profess to be Christians, but what sort of Christians are they? Are they like James, who said this of the audience (Christians?) of his day:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
James, like Paul (Romans 7:17, 20-21), knew he was "bugged" by sin and another spirit within, and it wasn't the spirit of man HWA taught us, or God's Spirit. It is "another spirit", just like there is things like: "another Jesus," and "another gospel," "spirit of antichrist," etc.
Try the spirits! Does Flurry and his group merchandise (2 Peter 2:1-3) others? Are the fruits/works of lust and envy present with Flurry, those of his organization,...yes, even in the other xcogs?
Are these hirelings all that much different from a prophet of Baal, or a Pharisee, for that matter. After all, Christ said the following about religious hypocritical leaders of His day:
"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44
How might Flurry be like this father the devil? Is such a thing possible? How does that father of liars/murders think, anyway?
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:14
Who is Number One? That sounds like the thinking that the unconverted disciples had, and Jesus, by God's Spirit, could see right through it. They often argued among themselves about: Who is the greatest? They were reflecting Satan's attitude/mind, much like Peter did and Christ had to tell him: "Satan, get behind me!"
Well, Mohammed Ali was the greatest! No, that's going off track, here!
Flurry, like the other xcog hireling leaders, all want to be #1. So, are they, just simply with that James 4:5 "spirit within" them just reflecting the thinking of their father? Do these leaders also express some of those other fruits/works mentioned in Romans 1:29-31, Galatians 5:17-21?
So, are these religious leaders all that much different from a Flurry? Evil just shows itself in different ways in different people. Could all of these leaders be guilty of idolatry and not know it?
Concerned sister suggests that Flurry, religious leaders, Christians should do the following: "...practice brotherly love, and care for one another, and encourage each other to truly follow Jesus Christ..."
And if James, Paul and Jesus have told us the truth, then if one has received God's Spirit, which overwhelms/overcomes Satan's spirit to one degree or another, which in turn has been allowed to overwhelm/overcome the very good (Genesis 1:31) nature given to human beings, then is it possible we may yet see better fruits/works from these religious leaders and their followers?
Time will tell...
John
Following on from 12:51:
Ge 29:30 and he [Jacob] loved [agapao] Rachel more than Lea (Brenton, LXX).
Gen 29:31 And when the Lord God saw that Lea was hated [miseo], he opened her womb; but Rachel was barren. (LXX).
“The Hebrew word is senu’a, literally, “hated.” The preceding verse has defined what hate means: “Jacob loved Rachel, not Leah”. “Hate” is used here as it is in Deut 21:15...” (Victor P. Hamilton, The Book of Genesis - Chapters 18-50, NICNT, pp.265-66).
Deu 21:15 And if a man have two wives, the one loved [agapao] and the other hated [miseo], and both the loved and the hated should have born him children, and the son of the hated should be first-born; (LXX).
Pro 13:24 He that spares the rod hates [miseo] his son: but he that loves [agapao], carefully chastens him. (LXX).
“It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms “love” and “hatred” in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of the expressions of affection” (Albert Barnes).
Lk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate [miseo] not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
“... hating can mean something like loving less (Gen 29:31, 33; Deut 21:15...” (Leon Morris, Luke, TOTC, p.253).
‘Hating’ one’s family “is a Semitic hyperbole that exaggerates a contrast so that it can be seen more clearly” (R. Alan Culpepper, The Gospel of Luke, NIB, Vol.9, p.292).
Mt 10:37 He that loveth [phileo] father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth [phileo] son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
“Jesus does not demand actual hatred of one’s own parents (which would directly contradict and violate the commandment of Exod 20:12), but his forceful exaggeration makes it clear that one’s love for Jesus must outweigh all other loyalties” (Craig A. Evans, Luke, NIBC, p.229).
Dt 33:9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
“It is not so much the true explanation to say that hate here means love less (Gen 29:31), as to say that when our nearest and dearest relationships prove to be positive obstacles in coming to Christ, then all natural affections must be flung aside; comp. Deu 13:6-9; Deu 21:19-21; Deu 33:8-9” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).
“That is, in this context, “hate” is not primarily an affective quality but a disavowal of primary allegiance to one’s kin. In a way consistent with other teachings in Luke, then, Jesus underscores how discipleship relativizes one’s normal and highly valued loyalties to normal family and other social ties” (Joel B. Green, The Gospel of Luke, NICNT, p.565).
An aside:
2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved [agapao] this present world
“The verb agapao in itself does not necessarily imply a loftier love; it does so when the context makes this clear (on the other hand in 2 Tim. 4:10 Demas’s regrettable love for ‘the present age’ is expressed by agapao)” (F. F. Bruce, The Gospel & Epistles of John, p.405).
I agree! Time will tell if there is actually a literal Laodicean church. According to PCG a Laodicean is really one who does not obey G. Flurry. A lot of those who leave are actually choosing to leave a false church and follow Christ their shepherd rather than a false prophet and people who are rich and increased with goods. Perhaps it is us who should cut them off.
How true! People only followed Gerald Flurry because they believed he was fighting for the truth that was destroyed by the new WCG leaders. Years later he is a literal king, prophet, apostle and every other type he can come up with. He has all HWA copyrights and now can change or add whatever he wants all in the name of new understanding or new revelation.
But they think they are doing it in love. They think cutting them off is an act of love that will bring them back in the “church”. These bastards have an answer and put their own spin on literally every argument they make, and they are rarely convinced otherwise.
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