Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
The writer's English is so garbled that it's hard to make sense of his point. It's easy enough to know what he can't be saying, but what then is he trying to say?
For example, there is no evidence that the Moon's orbit around the Earth changed in the 8th century BC. Chinese historical records, along with such records as we have from Egypt and the rest of the Middle East, document no change. What they do show is the widespread adoption of a solar calendar in place of a lunar one, which resulted in a year 5.24 days longer than a cycle of 12 "moon-ths". But there haven't always been 12 months in the year, as evidenced by the still-remaining months that didn't get emperor-names, "September" through "December" aka "7th" through "10th." Yes, March was month 1 and until Julius Caesar's reforms this had nothing to do with the relationship between lunar cycles and solar cycles.
And what on earth (or the Moon) is this sentence trying to say? But on the calendar Sabbatarians adopted with the rest of western civilization, the first day of our fixed week calendar, and the proclivity of the Romans to borrow days from one month, and tack them on to other months named after Caesar's to make them longer, results in the first day of a month with this calendar this January beginning on day 7.
I. Just. Can't. Even.
No month named after a Caesar begins with day 7, nor does January ever begin on day 7. A lunar cycle sometimes begins on Day 7 of a lunar cycle, but that's on a calendar Sabbatarians continue to use, not something they started using that the Romans invented.
This is something worse than even Bob Thiel would write. What is it and where did it come from?
I think 2:06 PM means "A lunar cycle sometimes begins on Day 7 of a solar month."
Yes, the OP's writing is a mess. And his premise, that "Sabbatarians insist it has always been this way," is demonstrably false. Sabbatarians insist on a seven-day cycle being preserved since Adam and Eve. That's all.
But that doesn't mean Sabbatarians don't have a tough claims to uphold, insisting on the persistence of the seven-day cycle. Between Joshua's long day (not attested by any other world culture with detailed astronomical records), and the International Date Line which has been moved a few times in various places, disrupting the Sunday-Saturday seven-day cycle, there's a HUGE gulf between the premise "God wants us to keep a day of rest at the end of our week" and the premise "God has preserved the same seventh day as His required day of rest since Creation, unless you happen to travel north of the Arctic Circle and things get confused quickly."
That's fine as an abstract spiritual principle, but it falls apart if you try to make it a legal requirement. Start with the premise that God created the world and said it was good, and that we are to understand God's attributes by studying His creation. Then, remember that God didn't cut mankind off from any part of His creation other than the Garden of Eden.
This means that we are not violating God's intent for us when we choose to travel (or to live) north of the Arctic Circle. Yet, when we do travel (or live) north of the Arctic Circle, legalistic seventh-day Sabbath-keeping quickly becomes problematic. So, clearly, in God's eyes seventh-day Sabbath keeping is a wonderful principle but not something to be measured by legalistic counts of days and months and lunar cycles, etc. Otherwise, God contradicts Himself and is a liar.
The moon was made for fixed times (corrected translation of Ps 104:19; the moon has nothing to do with the "seasons" of spring, summer, etc which are brought about by an orbiting tilted earth). So a calendar has been fixed from day one, from week one with the 7th day of the week as the sabbath.
So lets talk about the Moon. Our moon is 27% the size of the earth, which is dramatically greater than the relative size of other moons we have observed in our solar system. Because of this 'perfect' size it plays a vital role in stablizing our planet as it spins on its axis, giving us stable climates and ocean tides crucial for life. It provides us with 'eclipes' which have made it possible to measure and understand life as it exists. Sir Arthur Eddington observed light from the Sun was affected by gravity because of an eclipes proving Einsteins Theory of Relativity correct. Moon eclipes enabled man to discover helium. Solar eclipes for measuring a range of phenomena such as solar flash spectrum,prominces,starlight deflection and the earths rotation. And most importantly thanks to the moon we know much more about our star the Sun. And how extraordinary that they appear the same size in the sky. The maths behind this are staggering. Our solar system is located on the inner edge of the Orion Arn of our galaxy. 26000 light years from the centre. We are in the 'Galactic Habitable Zone' the ideal location for a planet like ours to form and support life. If we were c;oser to the centre of the galaxy the radiation would kill us because more stars are in the centre than in the spiral arms where we exist. At the centre are more AGN, active galactic nucleaus out bursts, more supernovae and gamma rays. Life would be impossible for us there. What to make of this? The moon is the perfect size and in the perfect place for life on earth to exist. As is the Sun. If these parameters were not there we would not be also. Sabbath controversies seem so small in comparison.
It is interesting to see those that totally understand the New Covenant that they totally understand what was said and those that are tied to the law instead of Christ still fail to understand it.
Eh, some people think the weekly cycle begins on the first day of the month, effectively resetting the Sabbath each month. That would result in a number of "dead days" during the year. Days that don't count, a sort of "free day" so to speak. It's just another attempt to throw confusion into the argument for the keeping of the Sabbath.
There is a tendency in Armstrongism to isolate the Sabbath away from its legal context. You must ask yourself not if the Sabbath is still in force but if the Law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath, is still in force. And if the answer is that the Law of Moses is still in force then why don't the proponents of his idea observe all of it? And what do they do about the observations that are clearly linked to the Temple in Jerusalem? In Rabbinic Judaism the Law of Moses was adapted to a Temple-less environment. The Rabbis did this on their own authority (See the Academy of Jamnia). What authority did HWA use institute this same dogma?
That would result in a number of "dead days" during the year. Days that don't count, a sort of "free day" so to speak.
That's EXACTLY what the ancient Romans did. There were only 10 months in the year, which left a big "dead time" of winter days that were just days, not part of any months.
The sabbath predates the law of Moses. The law of Moses includes laws of Gen 26:5 which include the sabbath, and laws added later by God through Moses. The law of Moses is a general term. When you refer to the law of Moses, which law are you referring to? The added laws are now no longer in force but the sabbath was not added by Moses. Part of the "law of Moses" is no longer in force and part still is "in force".
Hypocrites on this blog who have dictated to Sabbath keepers for decades. Members who have to listen to dry men's bones for years and in reality you believe in nothing.
Rebels within the ministry who are modern day examples of the sons of Eli scraping off the best for themselves. Two faced liars who hide their beliefs on this blog.
The calendar isn't needed to calculate the Sabbath. You just need to be able to count to seven!
God created the Sabbath day at the time of Adam. If it was later lost, it was shown again to Israel when they collected the Manna. (double on the sixth day, zero on the seventh day).
Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath day, so I think you can take it that it was still known two thousand years ago.
No one needs to look at the moon, or keep a calendar to observe the Sabbath.
If we are talking about the annual Holy Days - now that's a different question.....
Obviously, many of the commenters are not aware of the lunar sabbaths from the days when the priests were writing the daily calendar as they observed the moon, as opposed to more enlightened times in which the advances of science and mathematics enabled the new moons to be calculated in advance and a fixed calendar to be calculated without observation. Works so much better for those cloudy days!
Questeruk, are you aware of the divisions among seventh-day Sabbath keepers living near the International Date Line? That line has been moved several times, and some islands have had their days shifted as a result. Seventh-day Sabbath-keepers are divided: should they always observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, beginning Friday nights? Or should they try to maintain a perpetual seven-day interval, such that some should start their Sabbath on Thursday nights and others on Saturday nights?
Anonymous 11:17:00 said... “Questeruk: that's how Sunday worshipers argue against the sabbath: Sunday is every 7th day.”
Not at all, that is a completely different thing, and I think you know it is too.
I am saying that it is not possible to find which day is the seventh day Sabbath by using a calendar, or observing the moon or the sun. A very elementary study of the calendar shows that.
The Sabbath was by divine revelation. The original Sabbath, when God reformed the earth, was revealed again with the giving of manna for nearly forty years, and confirmed by Jesus Christ, who when on the earth as a human observed the seventh day Sabbath, and it has carried on every seven days since then.
That is a completely different thing to saying you keep every seventh day, such as Sunday.
Anonymous 6:58:00 said... Questeruk, are you aware of the divisions among seventh-day Sabbath keepers living near the International Date Line?....
Yes of course. However there has to be a date line somewhere, although it never occurred to the Western world until 500 years ago.
With the first recorded circumnavigation of the world in 1519-1522, the Italian chronicler on the voyage made the following entry in his log as they neared the completion of their voyage:-
"On Wednesday, the ninth of July, we arrived at one these islands named Santiago, [The Cape Verde Islands] where we immediately sent the boat ashore to obtain provisions.... In order to see whether we had kept an exact account of the days, we charged those who went ashore to ask what day of the week it was, and they were told by the Portuguese inhabitants of the island that it was Thursday, which was a great cause of wondering to us, since with us it was only Wednesday. We could not persuade ourselves that we were mistaken; and I was more surprised than the others, since having always been in good health, I had every day, without intermission, written down the day that was current. But we were afterwards advised that there was no error on our part, since as we had always sailed towards the west, following the course of the sun, and had returned to the same place, we must have gained twenty-four hours, as is clear to any one who reflects upon it.”
So the need for a date line was discovered on the very first voyage around the world. There has to be one somewhere. Where it is in the Pacific means there is no problem for over 99% of the population of the world.
There are ways of reconciling this for people living in the affected areas, in the same way that there are ways of resolving sunset for those that live north of the Arctic circle, where some parts of the year the sun never rises, and other parts of the year the sun never sets.
23 comments:
The Sabbath is the only right way to worship.
Thoughts.......?
The writer's English is so garbled that it's hard to make sense of his point. It's easy enough to know what he can't be saying, but what then is he trying to say?
For example, there is no evidence that the Moon's orbit around the Earth changed in the 8th century BC. Chinese historical records, along with such records as we have from Egypt and the rest of the Middle East, document no change. What they do show is the widespread adoption of a solar calendar in place of a lunar one, which resulted in a year 5.24 days longer than a cycle of 12 "moon-ths". But there haven't always been 12 months in the year, as evidenced by the still-remaining months that didn't get emperor-names, "September" through "December" aka "7th" through "10th." Yes, March was month 1 and until Julius Caesar's reforms this had nothing to do with the relationship between lunar cycles and solar cycles.
And what on earth (or the Moon) is this sentence trying to say?
But on the calendar Sabbatarians adopted with the rest of western civilization, the first day of our fixed week calendar, and the proclivity of the Romans to borrow days from one month, and tack them on to other months named after Caesar's to make them longer, results in the first day of a month with this calendar this January beginning on day 7.
I. Just. Can't. Even.
No month named after a Caesar begins with day 7, nor does January ever begin on day 7. A lunar cycle sometimes begins on Day 7 of a lunar cycle, but that's on a calendar Sabbatarians continue to use, not something they started using that the Romans invented.
This is something worse than even Bob Thiel would write. What is it and where did it come from?
Christians must keep the sabbath.
I think 2:06 PM means "A lunar cycle sometimes begins on Day 7 of a solar month."
Yes, the OP's writing is a mess. And his premise, that "Sabbatarians insist it has always been this way," is demonstrably false. Sabbatarians insist on a seven-day cycle being preserved since Adam and Eve. That's all.
But that doesn't mean Sabbatarians don't have a tough claims to uphold, insisting on the persistence of the seven-day cycle. Between Joshua's long day (not attested by any other world culture with detailed astronomical records), and the International Date Line which has been moved a few times in various places, disrupting the Sunday-Saturday seven-day cycle, there's a HUGE gulf between the premise "God wants us to keep a day of rest at the end of our week" and the premise "God has preserved the same seventh day as His required day of rest since Creation, unless you happen to travel north of the Arctic Circle and things get confused quickly."
Christians must keep the sabbath.
That's fine as an abstract spiritual principle, but it falls apart if you try to make it a legal requirement. Start with the premise that God created the world and said it was good, and that we are to understand God's attributes by studying His creation. Then, remember that God didn't cut mankind off from any part of His creation other than the Garden of Eden.
This means that we are not violating God's intent for us when we choose to travel (or to live) north of the Arctic Circle. Yet, when we do travel (or live) north of the Arctic Circle, legalistic seventh-day Sabbath-keeping quickly becomes problematic. So, clearly, in God's eyes seventh-day Sabbath keeping is a wonderful principle but not something to be measured by legalistic counts of days and months and lunar cycles, etc. Otherwise, God contradicts Himself and is a liar.
The moon was made for fixed times (corrected translation of Ps 104:19; the moon has nothing to do with the "seasons" of spring, summer, etc which are brought about by an orbiting tilted earth). So a calendar has been fixed from day one, from week one with the 7th day of the week as the sabbath.
So lets talk about the Moon.
Our moon is 27% the size of the earth, which is dramatically greater than the relative size of other moons we have observed in our solar system.
Because of this 'perfect' size it plays a vital role in stablizing our planet as it spins on its axis, giving us stable climates and ocean tides crucial for life. It provides us with 'eclipes' which have made it possible to measure and understand life as it exists.
Sir Arthur Eddington observed light from the Sun was affected by gravity because of an eclipes proving Einsteins Theory of Relativity correct.
Moon eclipes enabled man to discover helium. Solar eclipes for measuring a range of phenomena such as solar flash spectrum,prominces,starlight deflection and the earths rotation. And most importantly thanks to the moon we know much more about our star the Sun. And how extraordinary that they appear the same size in the sky. The maths behind this are staggering.
Our solar system is located on the inner edge of the Orion Arn of our galaxy. 26000 light years from the centre.
We are in the 'Galactic Habitable Zone' the ideal location for a planet like ours to form and support life.
If we were c;oser to the centre of the galaxy the radiation would kill us because more stars are in the centre than in the spiral arms where we exist.
At the centre are more AGN, active galactic nucleaus out bursts, more supernovae and gamma rays. Life would be impossible for us there. What to make of this? The moon is the perfect size and in the perfect place for life on earth to exist. As is the Sun. If these parameters were not there we would not be also.
Sabbath controversies seem so small in comparison.
Using all sorts of excuses and scholarship to discredit the Sabbath. Wont work. There is no need to convince the convinced.
4:56 PM God commands it in the Bible then you must do it.
It is interesting to see those that totally understand the New Covenant that they totally understand what was said and those that are tied to the law instead of Christ still fail to understand it.
Eh, some people think the weekly cycle begins on the first day of the month, effectively resetting the Sabbath each month. That would result in a number of "dead days" during the year. Days that don't count, a sort of "free day" so to speak.
It's just another attempt to throw confusion into the argument for the keeping of the Sabbath.
There is a tendency in Armstrongism to isolate the Sabbath away from its legal context. You must ask yourself not if the Sabbath is still in force but if the Law of Moses, which includes the Sabbath, is still in force. And if the answer is that the Law of Moses is still in force then why don't the proponents of his idea observe all of it? And what do they do about the observations that are clearly linked to the Temple in Jerusalem? In Rabbinic Judaism the Law of Moses was adapted to a Temple-less environment. The Rabbis did this on their own authority (See the Academy of Jamnia). What authority did HWA use institute this same dogma?
A rehash.
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That would result in a number of "dead days" during the year. Days that don't count, a sort of "free day" so to speak.
That's EXACTLY what the ancient Romans did. There were only 10 months in the year, which left a big "dead time" of winter days that were just days, not part of any months.
The sabbath predates the law of Moses. The law of Moses includes laws of Gen 26:5 which include the sabbath, and laws added later by God through Moses. The law of Moses is a general term. When you refer to the law of Moses, which law are you referring to? The added laws are now no longer in force but the sabbath was not added by Moses. Part of the "law of Moses" is no longer in force and part still is "in force".
Hypocrites on this blog who have dictated to Sabbath keepers for decades. Members who have to listen to dry men's bones for years and in reality you believe in nothing.
Rebels within the ministry who are modern day examples of the sons of Eli scraping off the best for themselves.
Two faced liars who hide their beliefs on this blog.
Anon 11:20 am you are jealous because God never called you but he will in a better time.
The calendar isn't needed to calculate the Sabbath. You just need to be able to count to seven!
God created the Sabbath day at the time of Adam. If it was later lost, it was shown again to Israel when they collected the Manna. (double on the sixth day, zero on the seventh day).
Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath day, so I think you can take it that it was still known two thousand years ago.
No one needs to look at the moon, or keep a calendar to observe the Sabbath.
If we are talking about the annual Holy Days - now that's a different question.....
Obviously, many of the commenters are not aware of the lunar sabbaths from the days when the priests were writing the daily calendar as they observed the moon, as opposed to more enlightened times in which the advances of science and mathematics enabled the new moons to be calculated in advance and a fixed calendar to be calculated without observation. Works so much better for those cloudy days!
Questeruk: that's how Sunday worshipers argue against the sabbath: Sunday is every 7th day.
Questeruk, are you aware of the divisions among seventh-day Sabbath keepers living near the International Date Line? That line has been moved several times, and some islands have had their days shifted as a result. Seventh-day Sabbath-keepers are divided: should they always observe the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, beginning Friday nights? Or should they try to maintain a perpetual seven-day interval, such that some should start their Sabbath on Thursday nights and others on Saturday nights?
All Christians keep the Sabbath, but not all Sabbath keepers are Christian.
Anonymous 11:17:00 said...
“Questeruk: that's how Sunday worshipers argue against the sabbath: Sunday is every 7th day.”
Not at all, that is a completely different thing, and I think you know it is too.
I am saying that it is not possible to find which day is the seventh day Sabbath by using a calendar, or observing the moon or the sun. A very elementary study of the calendar shows that.
The Sabbath was by divine revelation. The original Sabbath, when God reformed the earth, was revealed again with the giving of manna for nearly forty years, and confirmed by Jesus Christ, who when on the earth as a human observed the seventh day Sabbath, and it has carried on every seven days since then.
That is a completely different thing to saying you keep every seventh day, such as Sunday.
Anonymous 6:58:00 said...
Questeruk, are you aware of the divisions among seventh-day Sabbath keepers living near the International Date Line?....
Yes of course. However there has to be a date line somewhere, although it never occurred to the Western world until 500 years ago.
With the first recorded circumnavigation of the world in 1519-1522, the Italian chronicler on the voyage made the following entry in his log as they neared the completion of their voyage:-
"On Wednesday, the ninth of July, we arrived at one these islands named Santiago, [The Cape Verde Islands] where we immediately sent the boat ashore to obtain provisions....
In order to see whether we had kept an exact account of the days, we charged those who went ashore to ask what day of the week it was, and they were told by the Portuguese inhabitants of the island that it was Thursday, which was a great cause of wondering to us, since with us it was only Wednesday.
We could not persuade ourselves that we were mistaken; and I was more surprised than the others, since having always been in good health, I had every day, without intermission, written down the day that was current.
But we were afterwards advised that there was no error on our part, since as we had always sailed towards the west, following the course of the sun, and had returned to the same place, we must have gained twenty-four hours, as is clear to any one who reflects upon it.”
So the need for a date line was discovered on the very first voyage around the world. There has to be one somewhere. Where it is in the Pacific means there is no problem for over 99% of the population of the world.
There are ways of reconciling this for people living in the affected areas, in the same way that there are ways of resolving sunset for those that live north of the Arctic circle, where some parts of the year the sun never rises, and other parts of the year the sun never sets.
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