From Samuel Kitchen. No commentary is needed, though highlights are mine:
On January 16, 1986, a patriarch, a father figure to the Worldwide Church of God died.In one sermon, he stated to the Church that he did not have any authority to choose someone to be his successor. God would have to choose that someone. What he did have authority to do, is set up an Advisory Council of Elders to take lead in the meantime if he was to die and God did not yet raise up a successor.That might surprise a great deal of you reading. He stated that rather strongly and he stated it in official capacity as Apostle of Jesus Christ to the Worldwide Church of God!He was serious.Just prior to his death, the membership of the Church received a January 10th letter authored by Mr. Aaron Dean, Mr. Armstrong's assistant, who sent it out under Mr. Armstrong's signature. Mr. Dean said, all that Mr. Armstrong could do is squeeze his hand in acknowledgment. Mr. Armstrong did not personally type or speak that letter.Now the condition of Mr. Armstrong's health is deeply concerning. If he wasn't able to speak on January 10, then how could he speak later to the Advisory Council of Elders about choosing Joseph W Tkach Sr as a successor? Why would he choose a successor if he himself said God did not give him the authority to?
Mr. Aaron Dean, has spoken many times on the events surrounding the death of Mr. Armstrong. He described what Mr. Armstrong was doing prior to “picking Tkach”. He spoke of Mr. Armstrong doing something similar to what God had the prophet Samuel do to the sons of Jesse, when choosing a successor. He said Mr. Armstrong would examine the various men on the Advisory Council of Elders, and something would pop up or the minister would say something and God showed Mr. Armstrong that “it cant be him”. So Mr. Armstrong would move on to another man and go through the same process of examination.When it came to Mr. Aaron Dean, Mr. Armstrong stopped and told him “I want you to be Pastor General”. Mr. Dean refused and claims he “talked Mr. Armstrong out of it”, of making him the next Pastor General of the Worldwide Church of God.Mr. Armstrong was in a sense was casting lots, and he looked to Jesus Christ to show him the man Christ Himself chose. Mr. Armstrong COULD NOT CHOOSE A SUCCESSOR! He himself said so!Mr. Gerald Waterhouse, an evangelist of the Worldwide Church of God, gave a sermon (Available on wwcg-archives.com) saying Mr. Armstrong had placed Joseph W Tkach Sr into the role of “Deputy Pastor General”. So if Mr. Armstrong was to die, Mr. Tkach would AUTOMATICALLY become by default the next Pastor General.Mr. Armstrong died while evaluating Mr. Joseph W Tkach Sr. The last two men to see Mr. Armstrong was Joseph W Tkach Sr and Aaron Dean. They knew the exact time of his death and where he died.Witnesses claim Two men fled the campus that day, claiming “they killed Mr. Armstrong, and we are next”. I don't know exactly what that implicates. Who are “they”? And was Mr. Armstrong really murdered?So Joseph Tkach Sr became the next Pastor General of the Worldwide Church of God legally by default. The rest of the men of the ministry rose up to the occasion and supported him.Looking at the fruits of what happened afterwards, did Christ really want the Church and work to be dismantled and led into perverse doctrines and apostasy?Was it God's Will that it head that way? Or was it men's choice?Why would Jesus Christ who had raised up the Worldwide Church of God, lead it into apostasy. He wouldn't.So the fruits of what happened is evidence that Joseph Tkach was not God's pick. But like a King Saul, God allowed it. We all are given freedom of Choice to walk God's Way or not. Men chose to walk away from God and His Truth and the fruits are plainly evident here.But whom did God show Mr. Armstrong the man who was to be the next Pastor General of “GOD'S CHURCH”? Not man's church, a physical organization called a Church. Mr. Armstrong wrote and spoke PLENTY about this subject and How to Identify God's Church and what the Church REALLY is!The man is still around. Mr. Aaron Dean. Christ's Apostle's assistant. A man chosen by God's Apostle and trained to do the duties from the lowest of positions to the highest. Trained to be a Servant to all. And that training was not in vain. But while one is working in another house, God's House lies in ruins so to speak.Now for all intensive purposes, he is the ONLY man left who had been apart of the choosing of a successor. Jesus Christ through Mr. Armstrong gave him the mantle of spiritual leadership over the ministry, to JUDGE THE HOUSE. Mr. Dean was made to promise that he would STAND UP and condemn sin, and to warn the Church and ministry of departures from Jesus Christ! To KEEP the Church ON GOD'S TRACK! He has said this himself MANY OF TIMES.That is a spiritual role.If Tkach was ever to depart from Christ, HE WAS TO SPIRITUALLY LEAD THE CHURCH (under Jesus Christ) INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.That is astounding.Satan got ahold of Mr. Tkach and the leading men and changed track and direction. Because of this departures God removed Mr. Dean where he was fired and ostracized from Mr. Tkach's team. In the wake of Satan's heat upon those placed by Christ to stand for God and His Truth, Mr. Dean turned his focus on his own house, He wanted a wife, and a family, and 20 years. God answered that prayer. Because it wasn't God's time yet. But in the meantime, the Church slipped into a laodicean condition! Read Haggai 1:4 and surrounding verses. They focused on their own houses instead of Standing up for God's House, God's Church which was being ravaged by those who hated us!Satan had raised up organizations which are tied to civil governments around the world, and those previously of the Worldwide Church of God went to those organizations to do a work.Now, they ALL BASE their purpose and WORK, UPON THE JANUARY 10TH LETTER, which AARON DEAN WROTE! Which is the FOUNDATIONAL DOCUMENT of this LAODICEAN CONDITION! In that letter, he wrote “the greatest work lies ahead”. That was from Aaron Dean! Mr. Herbert W Armstrong did not write it.So for 20 years he helped where he could with God's people among the various COG GROUPS. Like Aaron with the Children of Israel, when Moses was on the Mount Sinai.At the end of the 20 years, in 2010, Aaron Dean was hired by the United Church of God.In 2010, our family began to warn the various COG GROUPS of the departures from Jesus Christ!Aaron Dean's job could no longer be done, because he had JOINED one of the groups that was drastically different than The Worldwide Church of God as it were under Christ's Apostle Mr. Herbert W Armstrong! He married a “strange woman”, a different identity, no longer with those calling themselves “The Worldwide Church of God”, but with an organization called by a different name, with different doctrines and beliefs, yet somewhat appearing like the old church. One may have 99% of what was previously taught, but until one is 100% like the one before, they're not the same at all! That is why God calls the Laodiceans to REPENTANCE! To become God's Church! Although they believe they are God's Church, 100% right.In Zechariah we read about a Joshua the High Priest, who was UNABLE TO PERFORM HIS PRIESTLY DUTIES in God's Church. In Ezra 10:18, we see that Joshua the High Priest, the PASTOR GENERAL OF THE PRIESTHOOD, married to a strange wife. He was UNABLE TO PERFORM his ministerial and priestly duties in the Temple of God until he put away that strange wife!So, our family was led to STAND UP and condemn the sin and warn the scattered Church membership of the Worldwide Church of God of the departures from Jesus Christ!Notice Zechariah 3, and what God does. Joshua the High Priest has Satan standing there ready to resist him. Now Satan wasn't resisting him while being in this condition while married to a “strange wife”. He was READY TO RESIST HIM. Satan was going to resist him if he began to obey God! Mr. Armstrong protested to Mr. Dean that “It comes with the job” regarding the SATANIC attacks and persecutions. One reason WHY Mr. Dean refused to stand up and take the position God was offering him THEN! He told Mr. Armstrong that the One in the leadership role is the one who gets the most attacks and flak. Mr. Armstrong said it comes with the job!And so the Lord, Jesus Christ Himself rebukes Satan! Satan flees. And that may come only by Prayer and Fasting. If certain demons require Prayer and Fasting to leave, as Jesus Christ says, How much is required for Satan himself?? So this man NEEDS our prayers!Then Christ tells those that STOOD BEFORE HIM, to remove the filthy garments of this man. Their job was to expose the sin which was keeping this man from performing his temple and priestly duties!My family has been involved with this, concerning Aaron Dean.Christ tells this Joshua that Christ himself had CAUSED his iniquity to pass from him. He was behind the work of exposing the sins! Christ tells him that “I will clothe thee with change in raiment”.Notice Zechariah 3:5, “And I said,(the prophet Zechariah) Let THEM...(Now who are THEM? Those who had been commanded to TAKE AWAY THE FILTHY GARMENTS! Those who stood before Joshua!)...Let THEM set a fair mitre(or crown) upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and CLOTHED HIM WITH GARMENTS.And the angel of the Lord, or God's messenger, stood by overseeing this task! Going back to what God says in Zechariah 4:9-11. God's Messenger and End Time Elijah is overseeing the crown making, because it is through his hands, the cleansing that was first produced and started. It will be FINISHED by his hands! You cannot REMOVE HERBERT W ARMSTRONG AT ALL!! And it is done by God's Holy Spirit! And God is going to FINISH the CLEANSING OF HIS CHURCH!Then God's servant begins the task of WARNING this man who has been cleaned up.Now turn to Zechariah 6, and see more on those who STOOD BEFORE this Joshua, who was given the job of removing the filthy garments using what Christ's Apostle prepared and built and instructed and taught, the instrument and know how, God's WAY of doing things, in this clothing and cleansing of Joshua.Many of these COG GROUPS will teach that those who stood before Joshua were EVIL PEOPLE. But it is clear Christ was leading them, it was the work of JESUS CHRIST! When God said DO THIS, THEY DID IT!Zechariah 6:10 & 14, we find a mention of the “house of Josiah, and the house of Hen, the son of Zephaniah”. Commentators will say that this is speaking of one HOUSEHOLD. The complete name would be “Josiah-Hen”. Josiah means “supporter of Yah, or Yah supports”. Hen means “grace”.God is saying here that ONLY through the WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD and what God gave them, will work! He means what He said! AMEN!Their job was to receive the materials and the know how to MAKE CROWNS and place them on the head of Joshua. The Blueprint of God's MASTER PLAN. The Way God restored through His Apostle and End Time Elijah Mr. Herbert W Armstrong.Since 2010, my family has been standing up and condemning sin and warning the Church of departures of what has been taught through Mr. Armstrong, the apostle of Jesus Christ!That job was first given to Mr. Aaron Dean! But when he joined one of the COG organizations, he could no longer perform that role! He tried to one time, address questions members brought to him in another organization and he was muzzled by the UCG. He could not do it any longer!So unable to perform his duties, God brought a household, to MAKE CROWNS, to do a work where they end up GIVING TO HIM A CROWN OR POSITION OVER THE HOUSE. The house discussed in the books of Haggai and Zechariah is the Temple of God! Mr. Armstrong said the Worldwide Church of God is the spiritual FULFILLMENT OF THAT TEMPLE!What have we been fighting for and preserving since 2010 brethren? THE IDENTITY AND EXISTANCE OF THE WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD!No one wants it, and Satan has a great deal of people trying to DESTROY that identity, in order to gain the membership of the Worldwide Church of God as members of one of these COG GROUPS.Christ led this work through my father, until his untimely death in the beginning of this year. In Zechariah 6:11, the household being used by Christ, was to be the instrument God uses to SET UPON the head of the next PASTOR GENERAL the CROWNS which picture authority and leadership! Also it is God's acknowledgment of the Man He Chose! My father died when the job Christ gave to him was FINISHED!!! And his last act was to submit to the man God chose for anointing. That showed us whom God has chosen!That job will be SET UPON THE HEAD OF A CLEANED UP MAN, who was already chosen to be the Pastor General of the Worldwide Church of God! And very soon this will happen! And the only man God has shown us is Mr. Aaron Dean. But there are things yet to happen before this happens.Notice what is spoken about NEXT in Zechariah 6.And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of Hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: (The BRANCH is Jesus Christ, and no man)Even he(Christ, The Branch) shall build the temple of the Lord; and he(Christ) shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his(Christ's) throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (between Christ and this man)God's Church is pictured BACK ON THE TRACK here!This pictures God once again RULING His CHURCH through ONE MAN AT A TIME (an absolute truth), but this only happens when this man is cleaned up and placed once again over The Worldwide Church of God membership at this time.Zechariah 6:14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the Lord.And they that are far off SHALL COME and build in the temple of the Lord, and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you. AND this shall come to pass, if you will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God.So the finishing of the Temple, or the CHURCH AGE, will end with this man (pictured by Joshua the High Priest) leading the Church! The last era of the Church is LADICEA! The Philadelphia Church, aka the Worldwide Church of God which Mr. Armstrong was called to raise up and very much involved with, will go into a place of safety and will continue until Christ's return! A remnant of the Worldwide Church of God, will go through the Great Tribulation, and will come out of it, and be GRAFTED BACK IN WITH PHILADELPHIA! Pictured by Romans 11.Notice Zechariah 6:10!This happens in the near future!God's Philadelphia Era of His Church, The Worldwide Church of God will be TAKEN to a Place of Protection. Shown here by “Take”. God uses what the Philadelphia Era of His Church had to pass on to the NEXT ERA, led by this Joshua The High Priest. It is what Christ gave us through His Apostle which is going to put the next era on track! Like Christ says in Revelation 3 concerning Laodicea. God says AMEN first, meaning God meant what He said! They must REPENT and get right with God in ORDER to be God's Church! These verses describe that event. And God has already chosen the leader to lead the rest of them back to God and God's Church!God says further in verse 6, they need to BECOME God's CHURCH! To be one of those INSIDE God's CHURCH! To Repent and as verse 15 says, “...if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.” Repentance THEN Obedience. Stop doing what you were doing and start doing what God says to do. Just like God says in Revelation 3!God has been thoroughly involved in preserving THE SPIRITUAL HOUSE which was raised up by God's servant, and end time Zerubbabel, Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong. It has not been destroyed as Satan would like you to believe! The Worldwide Church of God STILL EXISTS AND WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED!
26 comments:
Anything the Dean brothers have been attached to has been dangerous to one mental/physical.spiritual health. Stay away from him as far as you can!
There are lots of strange people on the so-called COG scene. They make up lots of strange theories. Then they seem to expect other people to waste their time waiting to see if the theories are true.
So Tkach and Aaron murdered HWA? How incredibly STUPID can Armstrongites be? It has amazed me how this church has been filled with so many blithering idiots and those who believe this shit.
If Jesus Christ had ever been involved with the Radio/Worldwide Church of God, this fairy tale Sam has created might have a degree of validity. But, He did not, so this exercise in apologetics belongs in the Book of Grim!
"He told Mr. Armstrong that the One in the leadership role is the one who gets the most attacks and flak. Mr. Armstrong said it comes with the job!"
Gets the most attacks?? HWA lived like a king. He owned a Roll-Royce, had a fleet of private jets, lived in a mansion, stayed in five star hotels, and was viewed as a god in his church. Who ever personally attacked him? Rather he was shielded by his privileged ivory tower. It's only the rank and file members who were personally attacked.
The hands of Herbert Armstrong did NOT finish the "work" - He was NOT Zerubbabel, and the Worldwide Church of God no longer exists. Some people are delusional!
KITCHEN WROTE:
Mr. Armstrong died while evaluating Mr. Joseph W Tkach Sr. The last two men to see Mr. Armstrong was Joseph W Tkach Sr and Aaron Dean. They knew the exact time of his death and where he died.
Witnesses claim Two men fled the campus that day, claiming “they killed Mr. Armstrong, and we are next”. I don't know exactly what that implicates. Who are “they”? And was Mr. Armstrong really murdered?
MY RESPONSE:
Murder has no statute of limitation. Kitchen's imagination is evident here, but if he "does" have material evidence or witnesses, then why not open up a police report for such. A 94 year old man, who was bedridden for months, dying , is not unusual or strange in the least. HWA had heart issues since at least the 70s, so his passing cannot be considered a strange thing. What does his death certificate say, and was there an autopsy , since he did not die in a health facility. Come on Kitchen, dont just make wild accusations and theories, how about some facts?
Now the condition of Mr. Armstrong's health is deeply concerning. If he wasn't able to speak on January 10, then how could he speak later to the Advisory Council of Elders about choosing Joseph W Tkach Sr as a successor?
Because the Advisory Council met on January 7... three days EARLIER, not later. That's when the successor was approved!
Some people noted at the time the significance of the January 7 date in WCG history.
Creating a false timeline is not good for your reputation.
...."HWA lived like a king."
*****
...a king.... (or, a leader, the Hebrew meaning is not necessarily a secular king. The Hebrew word for "king" is the same word in Prov 30:27: The locusts have no king...).....with a vehement countenance and understanding dark sentences which appear to be the truth but are not, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, and he shall corrupt to an extraordinary degree, and shall PROSPER, and do his thing, and he shall corrupt numerous saints (of a church?). And through his policy he shall cause deception to prosper in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart (I'm the apostle?), and during a time of peace corrupt many.....paraphrase Daniel 8:23-25.
This church area stuff is a load of crap. Totally useless and is nothing more than a manipulative tool to keep members in line. Aaron did not start the Laodicean era any more than Herb did the Philadelphia Era. This kind of useless puke is only for those who think the churches are special and set apart from the world. It's not.
It seems obvious that Sam is sincere, and probably a fairly nice guy if we were ever interacting with him in secular, nonreligious circumstances, and did not know one another's backgrounds. I actually admire his resourcefulness and the patience he exhibits. I just happen to feel that he's been stuck in a life-long maelstrom of incorrect information as were all the rest of us. Coming out of that should never be at the expense of one's conscience. Timing is everything when making some of life's changes. Best wishes to you, Sam!
This Kitchen's clown seems to be intent on inheriting Flurry's false apostle mantle. It seems so many charlatans like Flurry, Pack & now Kitchens have come out of HWA's legacy
"..warning..of departures of what has been taught through Mr. Armstrong.."
Like Anglo-Israelism??
How dare Tkach dump it just because it's dumbass fiction??
It is old news but it was much gossiped about in the 80's that Herbert Armstrong death was allegedly brought on earlier by a injection of some kind. It was alleged Herbert fought but was too weak to stop it.
I remember something like that recycled in AW, I think. Or maybe it was on Ed Mentells page. Either way, makes little sense to me. A 93 year old man with low blood volume and a failing heart isnt going to hang on so long that measures like that are needed.
That sounds too much like the 30 day Pope John P. 1 Albino Luciano being snuffed out
Comments made were: "...And the only man God has shown us is Mr. Aaron Dean. But there are things yet to happen before this happens......
...God has been thoroughly involved in preserving THE SPIRITUAL HOUSE which was raised up by God's servant, and end time Zerubbabel, Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong. It has not been destroyed as Satan would like you to believe! The Worldwide Church of God STILL EXISTS AND WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED!..."
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Joshua is no more a shadow of Aaron Dean, than Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong was a shadow of Zerubbabel, but continue to believe that if you wish.
HWA told us that God's Church was an organism, not an organization. Joe Tkach Sr. told us what his job was: not to walk in the shoes of HWA, but to walk in the footsteps of HWA. Did Joe, unknown to most of us, tell us the truth? Where did the footsteps go? Backwards. If there were no seventh church of Laodiceans, then God would be a liar. Why did God (Acts 15:18) allow this? I don't know; ask Him; He inspired Revelation 2-3.
The prophecies of the shadows of Zerubbabel/Joshua in the Book of Zechariah were written about 500 years before their fulfillment in the lives of Jesus Christ/Peter, respectively.
Time will tell...
John
That assumes the entire "church eras" interpretation is correct in the first place.
I have an open mind, but I think God did not choose Mr.Dean, HWA did. God chose Mr Tkach Sr.
Here's the way I have seen it. Why Tkach? There was a bad attitude among many Israelite ministers involving prejudice which was polluting the church. It needed to be cleaned out.
Mr Tkach did not have that problem.
However after a while he failed in that regard.
His son did not have the problem, and Tkach Jr did not fail that.
Many jerk ministers left the church because they were not about to submit to a Ukrainian.
Additional:
The Tkaches appear to have been ethnic Russians, but there was lack of clarity because they came from the geographic territory of Ukraine. Everyone said they were Ukrainian.
I cannot explain every individual's reason for leaving the church.
I can't explain the departures from the doctrines. I just say they were lamebrains.
"Many jerk ministers left the church because they were not about to submit to a Ukrainian."
Their WASPishness was that important? Man, white people dont even like other white people.
"HWA told us that God's church was an organism, not an organization.."
I love that play on words. It almost sounds reminiscent of something the Rev. Jesse Jackson would say. But since we're on an org trip, permit me to add another org word. It was definitely not no orgasm!!!
The church as a spiritual organism was a fraud in Armstrongism. That concept is a belief centered entirely around Christ. In Armstrongism that "organism" is centered around Herbert Armstrong and the law. While the church gives lip service to Christ, the power of Herbert Armstrong, the law, and church government reign supreme.
"THE CHURCH BEING AN ORGANISM
We also need to see that the church is not an organization but an organism. But what is the difference between an organism and an organization? We can illustrate this by considering a chair and our physical body. A chair is an organization of lifeless material, but our physical body has life. Thus, it is an organism. Life makes our body an organism. The church is the Body of Christ, and as an organism it depends upon life. The church is an entity of life. It is produced by life and formed with life and in life. We have to see that the church is a life entity. It is not something formed by teaching or by organization. We cannot form, organize, or establish a church by our teachings, regardless of how spiritual they are. The church is born of life and formed of life. It is altogether an entity of life." https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/THE-CHURCH-BEING-AN-ORGANISM.HTML
"Spiritual organism" was also used in the church as a weapon. It was exclusionary to the Church of God when Herbert started saying it, and actually excluded all of those in the splinter groups, at that time. Today, if he were alive he would have disfellowshipped every COG leader effeciently excluding them from that organism. Only those who remained in the true faith were citizens of that organism.
To be part of the organism was to keep the law religiously, be submissive to church government, and be a devotee of HWA. This effectively excluded Christians around the world not part of Armstrongism.
We were NOT a Christian organization.
Not AW or any worthless blog but way before the Internet took hold. Verbally spoken about. Even in recent decades.
Forgetting about all of the splits that openly dismissed Herbert's egomania. Although it's revealing the lens.
NO2HWA, Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 6:39:00 PM PDT, said:
"...The church as a spiritual organism was a fraud in Armstrongism. That concept is a belief centered entirely around Christ. In Armstrongism that "organism" is centered around Herbert Armstrong and the law. While the church gives lip service to Christ, the power of Herbert Armstrong, the law, and church government reign supreme.
"THE CHURCH BEING AN ORGANISM
We also need to see that the church is not an organization but an organism. But what is the difference between an organism and an organization? We can illustrate this by considering a chair and our physical body. A chair is an organization of lifeless material, but our physical body has life. Thus, it is an organism. Life makes our body an organism. The church is the Body of Christ, and as an organism it depends upon life. The church is an entity of life. It is produced by life and formed with life and in life. We have to see that the church is a life entity. It is not something formed by teaching or by organization. We cannot form, organize, or establish a church by our teachings, regardless of how spiritual they are. The church is born of life and formed of life. It is altogether an entity of life." https://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/THE-CHURCH-BEING-AN-ORGANISM.HTML..."
******
Those were very interesting comments. When I brought up the word organism I had the following in mind, which comes from the book Mystery of the Ages by HWA:
"..So, once again, what and why is the Church? The Church is the called
out (from this world) begotten children of God. It is the Body of
Christ (I Cor. 12:27; Eph. 1:23). It is the spiritual organism that
shall be the "Bride of Christ"--after its resurrection to immortality..."
I believe those words to be true, regardless of what HWA and the former WCG hirelings say and believe today. The organism is not an organization; however, portions of that organism may be organized. IOW, all who claimed to be members of the former WCG were not necessarily part of the organism, God's Church, but some of them probably were. God knows who are His.
THE CHURCH BEING AN ORGANISM? Again, interesting.
Comment saying "...The church is the Body of Christ, and as an organism it depends upon life. The church is an entity of life. It is produced by life and formed with life and in life. We have to see that the church is a life entity. It is not something formed by teaching or by organization...?"
I think, "Amen" to that. Some scriptures that come to mind?
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Yes, the Father is involved too, but of what value is Jesus to one sealed by God's Spirit as a Firstfruit? Life?
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
Of course, all life comes from Jesus' God: the Father, but the value to a member of God's Church, the organism?
"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:23
Christ and the Bride are part of "things to come." No Christ: no Bride.
No Adam: no Eve.
God created Adam first, and something of Adam was put into making a bride:Eve. It is like a shadow of something to come: Christ and the Bride, where something of both the Father and Christ are into the making of that living organism: the Bride.
What's ahead? A resurrection to immortality, but...
Time will tell...
John
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