The Linchpin of Armstrongism
A Christian’s supposed obligation to observe four particular aspects of Torah was central to Herbert Armstrong’s theology. He identified the weekly Sabbath, Holy Days, clean/unclean animals, and tithing as being still binding on Christians of the New Covenant. In fact, many who are currently a part of the Armstrong Churches of God regard these doctrines as their primary raison d’etre! In support of these obligations, they cite the facts that God commanded them, and Jesus Christ and his apostles observed them as proof of a Christians obligation to observe them. However, this paper will demonstrate that these two foundational pillars of Armstrongist theology do NOT stand up to closer scrutiny.
First, God commanded the children of Israel to observe these commandments, NOT anyone else! Indeed, in the preface to the delivery of the Ten Commandments, we read that “God spoke all these words, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.’” (Exodus 20:1-2, ESV) Question: Who did God deliver from slavery in Egypt? Moreover, in the preface to these commandments in Deuteronomy, we read: “And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, ‘Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.’” (Deuteronomy 5:1-3, ESV) Now, from my perspective, the target audience seems pretty clear.
Notice too this passage addressing the weekly Sabbath: “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’” (Exodus 31:12-17, ESV)
Likewise, regarding clean and unclean animals, upon closer examination, we see that they were clearly addressed to the people of Israel. In Leviticus, we read: “And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, ‘Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth.’” (Leviticus 11:1-2, ESV) And, “You shall not make yourselves detestable with any swarming thing that swarms, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, and become unclean through them. For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.” (Leviticus 11:43-45, ESV) In short, there simply is no mistaking to whom these commandments were addressed – the people of Israel.
Herbert Armstrong and his followers never failed to point out that ALL of these commandments were God’s – that it was God’s Sabbath, and God’s festivals. Unfortunately, they failed to mention the audience for whom they were intended! Once again, in Leviticus, we read: “The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.’” (Leviticus 23:1-2, ESV) The text then proceeds to list all of the festivals. For the Feast of Firstfruits, we read: “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them…” (Leviticus 23:9, ESV) Indeed, the phrase “Speak to the people of Israel” is repeated two more times in this text. (Leviticus 23:23, 34) Then, we come at last to the final festival and the summary. We read: “You shall dwell in booths for seven days. All native Israelites shall dwell in booths, that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel dwell in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.’ Thus Moses declared to the people of Israel the appointed feasts of the Lord.” (Leviticus 23:42-44, ESV)
Finally, regarding tithing, we read: “Every tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord's; it is holy to the Lord. If a man wishes to redeem some of his tithe, he shall add a fifth to it. And every tithe of herds and flocks, every tenth animal of all that pass under the herdsman's staff, shall be holy to the Lord. One shall not differentiate between good or bad, neither shall he make a substitute for it; and if he does substitute for it, then both it and the substitute shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.’ These are the commandments that the Lord commanded Moses for the people of Israel on Mount Sinai.” (Leviticus 27:30-34, ESV) And, regarding the place for Israel’s central place of worship, we read: “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses.” (Deuteronomy 14:22-25, ESV) Once again, this language is clearly focused on the children of Israel and the Promised Land.
Now that we have examined each of the four elements of the Law which Armstrong and his followers have obligated Christians to observe, we can make some more general observations about Torah as a whole. Torah was addressed to the children of Israel - NOT to the world at large! In a recent post over at the As Bereans Did blog, we read: "Some people say, ‘Look what the Lord says to us,’ as they turn to Leviticus. Well, I have some bad news for you. The Lord didn't say that to us. He said that to ancient Israel." Jesus Christ said that he came to fulfill Torah and the Prophets. In other words, THEY POINT TO HIM! That is their value for us. ABDwent on to note: "The Old Testament was not written to us; it was written for us. Big difference."
Which brings me to my second point refuting the teachings of the Armstrong Churches of God relative to Torah and Christians: Both the Old and New Testaments view the Law as an inseparable whole! First, Torah repeatedly enjoins the children of Israel to observe ALL – EVERY commandment which God has given to them. (Leviticus 20:22, Deuteronomy 6:1-2, Deuteronomy 6:24-25, Deuteronomy 11:8, 32, Deuteronomy 28:1, 15, 58, Deuteronomy 31:12, Deuteronomy 32:45-46) Likewise, in the New Testament, we are informed that Christ and his apostles viewed the law in exactly the same terms – that it was an inseparable whole. (Matthew 5:17-20, Matthew 7:12, Matthew 22:34-40, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 34-40, James 2:8-11) This is an important/critical point in understanding the Scriptural view of the Law. To reiterate, both the Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament writings confirm that Torah it is impossible to cherry pick Torah. Discarding, ignoring, or breaking one commandment makes you a law breaker – period!
This point was underscored for the children of Israel. In the final book of Torah, we read: “And now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the rules that I am teaching you, and do them, that you may live, and go in and take possession of the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you. Your eyes have seen what the Lord did at Baal-peor, for the Lord your God destroyed from among you all the men who followed the Baal of Peor. But you who held fast to the Lord your God are all alive today. See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?” (Deuteronomy 4:1-8, ESV)
Notice please that adding to or taking away from these commandments was strictly forbidden, and that they were CLEARLY and unequivocally addressed to ISRAEL. They were to keep the WHOLE Law – everything contained in Torah. This legislation constituted the terms of their covenant with YHWH! Moreover, it made them SPECIAL among the nations of the earth. This legislation made Israel UNIQUE. They were the ONLY people on the face of the earth who had this Law!
Now, we come at last to the final argument of Armstrong and his followers in favor of the obligation of Christians to obey some of the commandments of Torah. Yes, Jesus and his apostles observed the Sabbath, Holy Days, and avoided unclean meats. They were Jews, living under the terms of God's Covenant with the children of Israel. They were also circumcised and never wore clothing made out of blended materials. They observed Temple protocols. They tithed, never entered the Holy of Holies, and presented the appropriate offerings demanded by Torah. They observed the appropriate protocols for bodily discharges, skin diseases, and mildew. They came to Jerusalem and the Temple to observe the three pilgrimage festivals. They didn't round off the corners on their beards or have any tattoos. They also didn't eat rare meat or consume any fat.
In the Gospel of John, we are told that Jesus went to Jerusalem during the celebration of the Feast of the Dedication (Feast of Lights, Hanukkah). Does that mean we (Christians) are expected to observe it? Didn't Christ say that we are supposed to follow his example? "That's not what he was talking about!" the Legalists will snap back. "EXACTLY," is my response.
Please permit a more modern example: The people of Illinois are living under the state constitution of 1970, NOT the three previous iterations of a state constitution! Likewise, the citizens of Illinois are obligated to obey ALL of the current income tax and traffic laws that are applicable to them. Most of us recognize that the notion that we would be able to pick and choose which laws we are going to obey and which ones we are going to ignore is absurd (and would probably land us in jail if we attempted such a thing)!
Christ came to this earth to fulfill God's Law for Jews and Gentiles. He did. He fulfilled it perfectly - as NO other human has EVER been able to duplicate. Moreover, his righteousness/innocence was the perfect cure for our sinfulness/guilt before God. Likewise, his original disciples were ALL Jews - born under the terms of the Old Covenant (Torah). Hence, we would expect to find them observing the commandments of Torah - ALL OF THEM, and we do!
Even so, it does NOT follow that we (Gentile Christians) should be doing likewise in 2026! Indeed, a good many things have happened since then – like Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension to heaven; the coming of the Holy Spirit and the establishment of the ekklesia; the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (which I don't believe was happenstance), and the reformation of Judaism.
Thus, we have seen that the argument that Christ and his disciples were Torah-observant Jews is completely irrelevant to the notion of a Christian's obligation to that legislation! That's worth repeating - let it sink in: The fact that Christ and his disciples were Torah-observant Jews is completely irrelevant to the notion of a Christian's obligation to that legislation! Hence, we have demonstrated that the Armstrongist justifications for obligating Christians to observe the weekly Sabbath, Holy Days, clean/unclean, and tithing have been completely discredited.
In other words, Christians are NOT operating under the terms of God’s covenant with Israel! We are operating under the terms of the NEW covenant – the one which requires belief in and acceptance of the value of Christ’s fulfillment of Torah, the Prophets, and Writings of the Hebrew Bible, and subsequent sacrifice for us! The covenant, which was founded on the Two Great Commandments, which Jesus Christ himself drew from Torah. And, more particularly, the covenant that is based on Christ’s commandment to love each other (the very thing that he said would identify his disciples to the world – the sign of the New Covenant)! Sorry to my Armstrongist friends, but THIS represents the real obligation of New Testament Christians!
Lonnie Hendrix/Miller Jones
125 comments:
Of course the Sabbath is still binding on Christians. Sheesh.
Thank you Lonnie/Millar for this post. So much to think about and to take in here. The Law was indeed our tutor to bring us to Christ as so clearly stated within scripture. And now that Christ has come we are no longer under ‘Law’. I a one of the ‘tribe’. As in the past and today there is a huge array of division and controversy within Judaism on the ‘Law’, separate from the Christian faith. We have Haredi, conservative, liberal and many in between plus secular communities. They all keep the law. Well their version of it.
What is evident is that some versions of law keeping, which are repulsive for one group, are foundational for others. And as I’m sure you know, even tradition has become law. Oy yeh. And so we have what we have within Judaism today. And that without the NT direction of course. Which leads to other questions lol. The controversy over law will continue until our Lord and Saviour returns no doubt. And we will continue to hear much more on this subject. What liberty we have in Christ, a liberty that Armstrongites have yet to embrace.
Jesus did it all, so throw out the law (including the sabbath) and your bible! Your salvation is assured, not earned.
It seems to me that we keep getting more or less this same article over and over.
Whoever wrote this comment has failed to give any meaningful consideration to the above post. And of the scriptures underpinning it.
May I suggest that you give reasons that refute it - by offering a detailed rebuttal to be posted on this site so that all may read and comment if they are interested to do so.
If all we are offered is the bland response above then, unfortunately, your response must be discounted, if not ignored altogether.
There have been detailed posts here about sabbath before and as I recall there be no demand that someone who wishes must cease observing it.
Lonnie, I have believed for some time now that this is why, counter to all of the massive evidence against British Israelism (including dna science for the past 25 years), the Armstrong churches continue to cling to it! It is not that they earnestly desire all of the horrible prophecies to come to pass upon their unchurched families, neighbors, colleagues at work, and fellow countrymen! That would be cruel, sadistic, and totally unChristian!
Herbert W. Armstrong read the same passages as you so eloquently quoted, and the fact that they were written specifically to and for the Israelites HAD to have stood out to him just as surely as you made them stand out to all of us! Via the theory of British Israelism, HWA found a way to make those of Western European heritage into Israelites whom time and rebelliousnes had allegedly caused to gradually lose what he termed as their true identity. His usage of this theory suddenly obliged the descendants of the Germanic tribes who conquered Western Europe to keep all of the elements of the Sinai Covenant God made with the Israelites. It identified the reason for prosperity enjoyed by these nations in the present as being the blessings promised to Abraham, and opened up the curses and punishments for forgetting who they were, living in defiance of the covenant they knew nothing about, and not appreciating these blessings. Particularly to the nations Herbert identified as being Manasseh and Ephraim! Further Herbert took the descendants of one of those same Germanic tribes, and misidentified them as Assyria. He literally gave them an ethnicity change operation to massage and facilitate his prophecy model! It must be nice to be able to be allowed to "prove all things" in that manner! He also took the liberty of doing similar and worse to several other ethnicities when it suited his purposes.
And, just in case our Black, Hispanic, and Native American brothers and sisters who also participated in the founding of our country thought they could escape these obligations and punishments, HWA made them requirements for those whom Paul called "Spiritual Israelites" in spite of James's proclamation to the contrary following deliberations by the first Jerusalem Council.
Finally, Herbert linked obedience to the picked and chosen elements from the Sinai Covenant to God granting him and his church understanding of end times prophecies, and a place of safety. Current leaders of what we so quaintly refer to as "the ACOGs" insist that Herbert's prophecies did not fail in 1972-75. They insist that he simply got the math wrong, resulting in delays. This allows them to continue to cling to the hook which made Herbert's evangelism so effective. Funny, they can sharpen their pencils in an effort to discover the correct math, but nobody examines the doctrines Herbert insisted are the very reason for correct understanding of prophecy.
Meanwhile, the generation referred to in the Olivet discourse found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke has been modified by Armstrong-adherents several times in the face of these "delayed" prophecies. Herbert did time check his prophecies using Jesus words in this "insider" discourse with His disciples from time to time. If this prophecy is to be interpreted in light of the generation alive on May of 1948, at which time Israel was reborn as a modern nation, the WW-II Boogie-Woogie at the USO generation Herbert originally cited has largely passed. Baby Boomers born in 1948 are fixin' to turn 78 this year. Most of the musicians who provided the sound track for our lives are no longer with us! These are the final years that the ACOG leaders and Bob Thiel could possibly kick the 'ol empty prophecy can down the road, although I have no doubt that when we're gone, they will still find a way to perpetuate the teachings of HWA. They'll just have one less factor to cite in their attempts to excuse him.
BB
The only Sabbath that's binding on Christian s is the rest we have by believing in Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews 3&4 to see what the real Christian Sabbath is.
Kingdom of Priests
Ex 19:6a And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
Isa 61:6a But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God:
“A kingdom of priests, that is, a servant nation instead of a ruling nation” (Durham, p.263). It is to be devoted as a nation to a mediatorial role between God and other kingdoms, to function among the nations as a priest functions in a religious community (see Isa. 61:6). As such, all the people of God, not just the clergy, are to be committed to the extension throughout the world” of the knowledge of Yahweh” (Terence E. Fretheim, Exodus, Int., p. 212).
This knowledge includes the ‘way’ one is to worship God.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
“To whom are the promises given? Just to the people of Israel? Hardly. They are given to those of all flesh who worship from month to month and Sabbath to Sabbath. THIS IS THE ULTIMATE END OF ISRAEL RELIGION, THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF JOINING ISRAEL IN WORSHIPING THE ONE GOD (cf. Zech. 14:16-21)" (John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 40-66, NICOT, p.691)...
Repeated for emphasis: THIS IS THE ULTIMATE END OF ISRAEL RELIGION, THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF JOINING ISRAEL IN WORSHIPING THE ONE GOD
Blessing to the Nations
Gen 12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. NKJV).
Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (AV).
Abraham was to be a blessing to “all families of the earth.” But how was he to be a blessing?
Ge 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Ge 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Ge 28:14 And thy [Jacob] seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Zec 8:13 And it shall come to pass That just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing. (NKJV).
Abraham will be a blessing through his seed. That seed would be a people and an individual who would be representative of the people:
“...The Messiah and His history are not represented in the Old Testament as something separate from, or superadded to, Israel. The history, the institutions, and the predictions of Israel run up to Him. He is the typical Israelite, nay typical Israel itself - alike the crown, the completion, and the representative of Israel... ” (Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, p. 114).
“... the verbal phrase in which the word “blessing” occurs in [Zechariah] 8:13 (“you will be a blessing”) is reminiscent of the promise of Abraham in Genesis 12:2. There God promised to bless Abraham, and he will in turn become a source of blessing to the nations. Zechariah represents a similar trend. The people had been an example of curse among the nations, but they will become a source of blessing to the nations” (Mark J. Boda, Haggai, Zechariah, NIVAC, p.385).
“God has chosen Jacob and Jacob’s descendants as the means by which God will mediate his blessing to the world” (Victor P. Hamilton, The Book of Genesis, Chapters 18-50, NICOT, p 116).
Part 2
Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river [nahar], the river Euphrates:
Ge 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Ge 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Unfortunately the focus on Abraham being a blessing through his descendant Jesus Christ has overshadowed Abraham also being a blessing through his descendants the seed of Jacob - the “house of Judah and house of Israel”.
“Blessing, which corresponds to the English word “success,” encompasses the well-being of a person or a people: good health, long life, numerous offspring, fertile fields and flocks, harmony within the clan, and freedom from oppression... God’s primary way of working among the nations is through Abram’s seed [specifically his grandson Jacob’s seed].THUS, TO EXPERIENCE GOD’S BLESSING, THE VARIOUS PEOPLES MUST INTERACT WITH ABRAM’S OFFSPRING. Through Abram’s seed he is achieving his goal in creating the earth, namely people worshipping only him” (John Hartley, Genesis, NIBC, pp. 132-33).
“... THE NATIONS WOULD EVENTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND WORSHIP ISRAEL'S GOD, YHWH, WITH ALL THE CONCOMITANT RESPONSIBILITIES AND BLESSINGS OF SUCH WORSHIP” (Christopher J. H. Wright, The Mission of God, p. 455)...
Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
“The geographical description is a ‘political and religious metaphor communicating the ‘prestige and authority of the God who dwelt in the temple’ (Jenson, 2008: 145). As a result, peoples and nations will stream to Jerusalem” (Elaine Phillips, Obadiah, Jonah & Micah, ApOTC, pp. 265-66).
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Zion “is where God has revealed his ways to humans... In his Word, God has given instructions (torah) on how to walk in his ways. Thus, the nations ... come to Jerusalem in order to learn how the Creator intends his creations to live” (John N. Oswalt, Isaiah, NIVAC, p.89).
“Specifically, this verse not only depicts their trek to Jerusalem voluntary; it also portrays the nations articulating their desire to submit themselves to Yahweh, the God of Jacob” (James D. Nogalski, The Book of Micah, NICOT, pp. 143-44).
“Learning God’s way will inevitably transform them: they will conduct themselves appropriately in accordance with being God’s representatives. That is how Torah will go forth from Jerusalem: it will be embodied” (Elaine Phillips, Obadiah, Jonah & Micah, ApOTC, pp. 266).
Part 3
Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Isa 49:6 I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
God will give the Messiah for a light to the Gentiles, and the Messiah will delegate Israel to be his salvation unto the end of the earth.
“Israel is the means by which God ... bring the nations to have knowledge of him” (Peter Enns, Exodus, NIVAC, p. 389).
“They were to be mediators of God’s grace to the nations of the earth even as in Abraham “all nations of the earth were to be blessed” ” (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Towards an Old Testament Theology, p. 109).
God’s People in the Messianic Age
Jer 50:4 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.
Jer 50:5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst [tāvek] of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11a-bα AND MANY NATIONS SHALL BE JOINED TO THE LORD IN THAT DAY, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst [tāvek] of thee, (AV).
“... the nations will join themselves to YHWH - not merely to Israel... They will belong to YHWH just as Israel does ... they will enjoy exactly the same covenantal relationship with YHWH that Israel does. The expression “they will be for me a people” is precisely the language of the covenant, with its roots going back to Sinai, hitherto applied only to Israel” (Christopher J.H. Wright, The Mission of God, p.498).
Ex 6:7a And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: (AV).
“Here in verse 11 Zechariah also speaks of “nations,” not just individuals. The Lord extends a covenant relationship to these nations. They will become my people is one half of the covenant formula previously offered to Israel, “I will be their God, and they will be my people” (e.g., Exod 6:7)...” (Pamela J. Scalise, Zechariah, "Minor Prophets II," NIBC, pp.215-16).
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among [tāvek] you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
“In Leviticus 26:12, this element of the promise is associated with the divine presence ... as it is here” (Thomas McComiskey, Zechariah, "The Minor Prophets," p.1064).
Part 4
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger [nēkār], that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. (AV).
1Ki 8:41 Moreover concerning a stranger [nākĕrî], that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;
1Ki 8:42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house;
1Ki 8:43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwellingplace, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name. (AV).
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people [‘ammîm] shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (AV).
“In the vision of 2:2-4 Zion is “a city set on a high mountain and a light that draws the whole world (cf. 26:1-6). From Zion Yahweh can thus resolve the world’s conflicts and bring its disputes to an end. Other peoples seek help from Jerusalem (16:1-5) and brings gifts to Yahweh there (18:7). As Yahweh’s servant, Israel is a covenant to such people (see 42:1-9). In other words, IT MODELS AND PROMISES WHAT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH YAHWEH COULD BE. It is also is a witness to them of Yahweh’s acts (55:1-5). Zion’s festivals and offerings will not be for Judah alone, but will be for people from all over the world whom Judah will go and fetch (66:18-21)” (John Goldingay, Isaiah, NIBC, pp.18-19).
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (AV).
“THE ONE FESTIVAL UNITING ALL NATIONS IN WORSHIP IS TO BE THE FEAST OF BOOTHS... In God's Kingdom the gentiles would be brought within that covenant when they came to worship in the Temple the King, the Lord of hosts...” (Joyce G. Baldwin, Haggai Zechariah Malachi, TOTC, p.206).
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (AV).
“To whom are the promises given? Just to the people of Israel? Hardly. They are given to those of all flesh who worship from month to month and Sabbath to Sabbath. THIS IS THE ULTIMATE END OF ISRAEL’S RELIGION, THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF JOINING ISRAEL IN WORSHIPING THE ONE GOD (cf. Zech. 14:16-21)” (John N. Oswalt, The Book of Isaiah, Chapters 40-66, NICOT, p.691).
For emphasis: THIS IS THE ULTIMATE END OF ISRAEL’S RELIGION, THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF JOINING ISRAEL IN WORSHIPING THE ONE GOD
Graphic of camp
The Israelite camp provides an illustrative ‘type’ for the Messianic Age: The Levites picture the nation of Israel and the twelve tribes picture the ‘nations’ of the world; with God dwelling in their midst of all peoples...
Part 5
Ex 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
The seventh day of the week is the day of rest and worship. Why do most Christians rest and worship on the first day of the week?
Rom 11:24 ... you [Gentiles] were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree [Israel],... (NIV).
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
“Paul’s claim is that Gentile believers have been “grafted into” the Jewish olive tree (Rom. 11:17-26) and made “fellowheirs of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the “gospel” (Eph. 3:6)... Paul made the Gentiles believers part of the “household of God” (Eph. 2:19) and part of Abraham’s seed” (Gal. 3:16-19)... Thus Gentiles, who were “aliens” from the state of Israel” (Eph. 2:12) and “strangers and foreigners” (v. 19) to “the covenants of promise” (v. 12), HAVE BEEN MADE TO SHARE IN PART OF THE BLESSING OF GOD TO ISRAEL” (Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Towards an Old Testament Theology, pp. 268-69).
Ro 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Some argue that the laws for Israel were only for Israel. But if the laws were for Israel how much more should they be for the Israel of God — branches in the Israelite olive tree — (i.e., the Church, the household of God, and part of Abraham’s seed)? That the Israel of God would be keeping Sunday instead of the Sabbath appears disingenuous. (Yes, Jesus, as firstfruits, rose from the dead on the “on the morrow after the sabbath” (Lev 23:11), but this is not a justification for a change of the day of rest and worship.
Why, then, do most Christians keep Sunday, Christmas and Good Friday-Easter as holy times?
Sunday-keepers have chosen their own way to worship God instead of joining with Israel to worship God on the Sabbath and Holy Days. That the majority of God’s new covenant people would do so was suggested from the example of the majority of God’s old covenant people.
Typology
David, son of Jesse, and the Old Testament Temple and its Aftermath and
‘David’, Son of God, and the New Testament Temple and its Aftermath
One is aided in making this typology from Paul’s application of an OT scripture:
Ro 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
“In applying the Hosea prophecy to the Gentiles ... Paul affirms that they too are heirs of the promises to Israel” (James R. Edwards, Romans, NIBC, p.242).
This means that grafted in Gentiles should worship God on the sabbath. But unfortunately, as typology suggested, the Gentiles, precursors of today’s Sunday-keepers, like the northern kingdom, went their own way and chose to worship God differently.
Typology may repeat or rhyme; and people and events in the antitype may not occur in the same way as in the type.
In typology the type and antitype may both be good or both be bad. The type may also be ‘bad,’ think Adam, and the antitype may be good, think “the last Adam”.
So in this typology David = Jesus; Solomon = Peter; Rehoboam (bad) = James (good); and Jeroboam (bad) = Paul (good).
I recall commie philosophers using terms such as multi logic. We in the west use Western logic while other groups have their own. This is the stuff of a Marvel multiverse popcorn movie.
I'm open minded, so if Lonnie can prove that the laws of physics and chemistry are different for difference groups, I'II agree with his conclusion.
Anonymous @ Friday, February 27, 2026 at 8:35:00 PM PST,
Your comment could be applied to several of the comments in this thread. No one has even attempted to refute the points made in the post.
Multi-part Anonymous,
Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that the entire earth would be blessed through him - his seed. You are correct in asserting that Israel was chosen to introduce YHWH to the rest of the world, and they were given the opportunity to do so. Unfortunately, they were never able to keep/obey Torah and FAILED to perform the mission assigned to them. Even so, YHWH redeemed them through Jesus Christ; and God also opened the way for the Gentiles to approach his throne through him (Christ). Christ fulfilled Torah and is our Sabbath rest. Through him (Jesus), both Jews and Gentiles are able to stand before God whole and clean.
Byker Bob,
As usual, you have contributed a very salient point to the discussion. I completely agree that this constitutes one of the chief reasons that the ACOGs have so tenaciously clung to Anglo-Israelism. If they are physically Israel, it provides them with yet another excuse/justification for keeping/obeying the terms of God's covenant with Israel. Unfortunately, it is the only way that they can make it all work - the whole Bible. They put themselves in the middle of it all. That's why Herbie reiterated over and over again that the Bible was a book about Israel! Thanks for contributing this important comment.
Commie Philosophers Anonymous,
Open minded? You set me the task of proving that the laws of physics and chemistry are different for different groups. Scientists have speculated that these laws may bend and break down at various points throughout the universe, but any attempt by me to demonstrate such a proposition would be a fool's errand and probably wouldn't convince you of anything anyway. The truth, however, is that God's Law is eternal. The commandments of Torah were based on Love for God and Love for neighbor, and the New Covenant is founded on the same two commandments/principles. How's that for a Marvel multiverse popcorn movie?
There...can the anti-COG finally give it a rest after someone took the time to spell it all out for us...will time "tell"?
Do you read it, 8:11? Do you "get" it? Repetition is the mother of learning.
"First, God commanded the children of Israel to observe these commandments, NOT anyone else!"
Evidence of a very shallow understanding of the scriptures and the Plan of God.
For those of us who are naturally curious, could you please name these communist philosophers, so that we might investigate further, 12:52?
Also, the preservers of the ancient oracles consider "Talmudic Logic" (aka wisdom) to be superior to the catch-all term "Western Logic". Still, it is undeniable there is parallel and independent history of nations and systems which developed as totally separate systems from the Bible nations. Asians use Buddhist logic. East Indians use Indian logic. And then, there is Greek logic, which attempted to take over Talmudic logic during the period of Helenism (Intertestamental peiod of Bible-history).
Theology, as it has developed through human history, is totally different from the life sustaining natural laws and constants of the universe in which we all live. So, you leave us with an apple to pomegranates comparison. Still, gravity on the moon, as well as centrifugal and centripital force, are modulated downwards as compared to those forces on planet Earth. It's also kind of difficult for astronauts to keep the sabbath on the moon! Now, that's what I call a radically different time zone!
Multi-part Man Wrote, “Repeated for emphasis: THIS IS THE ULTIMATE END OF ISRAEL RELIGION, THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY OF JOINING ISRAEL IN WORSHIPING THE ONE GOD”.
I believe that is the ultimate goal of the Old Testament, as well. But I do not believe this ultimate purpose is somehow a license to ignore Jesus and the New Testament. The OT points to Christ. He is the fulfillment of its spiritual content. You can quote OT scripture ad infinitum. We’ve been over this before. And the book of Revelation gives no indication that a physical Temple will be restored. In fact, it is explicit about God and the Lamb being the Temple. So, whatever was said in the OT prophets, notably Zechariah, was not about the restoration of a Temple liturgy with sacrifices as a mode of worship for all nations in the future. Christ is the Temple just as Christ is the Sabbath.
Scout
Repetition is the mother of brain-washing.
Since the garden of Eden, it has always been the Sabbath. Long before Israel.
Not at all, Anonymous 5:17! Per HWA: Correct doctrines = God giving the adherents correct understanding of end times prophecy. All MPM did was to reiterate the supposed proof texts which were part of the Herbal Essence. And mostly from the OT at that! What would have shut all our mouths would have been HWA's understanding, or expressed theories of interpretation coming to pass when he said they would. The man was not inspired, and I for one am glad he was not. Had he actually been God's messenger, I would not have had the life which I had! When 1975 failed, followed by 50 years additional proof that HWA was an imposter, for me it was the WCG equivalent of having been lied to about Santa Claus. Tough to take, but I was able to regroup, get it fixed, and move on! Turns out the false prophet ends up being the real "crown stealer". But then, there really was no crown in the bathwater after all!
Do you mean the Plan of God that HWA taught, 6:38? It was certainly no surprise to me this morning while getting in my news and coffee, that nobody in ACOGdom had forecast our attack on Iran. The human mind is like a parachute! (It only works when it is open)
Didn't Bob say Iran would likely, may be, someday "neutralized"? Hmm...
The two summary laws of love do not negate, abolish, remove the laws on which the two summary laws are based.
Scout 743 writes
"The book of Revelation gives no indication a physical temple will be restored".
Is it necessary that it does?
Scout continues, " In fact, it (Revelation) is explicit about God and Christ being the temple"
The book of Revelation covers a lot of ground. In chapter 21 we see that Christ isn't the temple UNTIL the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, which is AFTER the millennial reign. And we are told elsewhere that the Fathers doesn't even make an appearance until Christ "hath put down all rule and authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:24-25).
I believe this vindicates both multi-part man and the old testament prophets.
Scout, I thought you were big on "timelines"? Maybe not.
Broad is the way that leads to destruction.
We in the west use Western logic while other groups have their own.
Actually, few people use much of any logic.
For those of us who are naturally curious, could you please name these communist philosophers, so that we might investigate further, 12:52?
Perhaps those who claim to be curious should put a little effort in and try a search engine.
2083,400,480,429 years - Gen 5&11, 15:13, 1Kings 6:1, 2Chr-reigns in Judah to end of Zedekiah = 3,392 years....to 585 BC.....+ 2026 AD = 2610 years......total 6002 years
Anonymous @ Saturday, February 28, 2026 at 9:55:00 AM PST,
The Two Great Commandments which Christ identified from Torah were the basis for the 600+ commandments of Torah - including the Ten! The children of Israel (who did NOT have access to the Holy Spirit) needed explicit elaborations of the Two to guide them to righteousness. In the New Testament dispensation, Christ has made it possible for the Law of Love to be written on our hearts. Hence, we don't need a bunch of dos and don'ts to guide us. The Great Commandments comprehend and fulfill Torah, and they represent a universal standard for humankind - Jew and Gentile. The Old Covenant was violated by Israel and abolished to make way for the New Covenant. God's Law of Love is eternal - past, present, and future!
Love fulfills the law. So, you are right
It can be, 9:10. Depends on how it is used.
Well, Commies and Armstrongites are very much alike in that they are purveyors of failed philosophies, philosophies which when practiced both produce corrupt and perverse leaders.
Yeah, the broads can lead a man to destruction!
Contrary to the title of this article, to destroy the linchpin of Armstongism, it is necessary to destroy the bible itself. Then down goes all of Christianity.
What philosophy has not failed? All of them are full of holes. Same as any religion.
If you believe this please tell us about all of the laws that you actually keep. When doing so tell us also about how you meet the incredibly elevated standard of Jesus in Matthew 5. Fact is we don't and in being condemned as sinners it is only Christ in us that saves.
Lonnie, my point is that just as the laws of physics and chemistry are universal, so are the laws God gave to Israel. While some rituals in the OT are no longer relevant, the core of the OT still applies. That is the definition of laws. There is no such thing as multi laws, be they physical or spiritual.
But how do you know that the angels didn't kept the Sabbath before God created man? While they wouldn't have needed the physical rest, they certainly would have profited by spending the day studying God's way and reflecting on their lives.
There's no evidence or proof that anyone before Moses kept a weekly sabbath. It only records God as resting. And the Epistle To The Hebrews states we enter into that rest, not by keeping a day, but by having faith in Christ.
Read the Gospels. Christ said he was the temple who was 'built' by being raised from the dead.
Part 1 of 2
The Messiah the Rock is the absolute fulfillment of the Torah and a Creator of all things which Paul clearly explains. He did and does everything perfectly which makes sense given that He is the Creator along with the Father in heaven.
He says in Matthew 5:16-20 that nothing is changing until heaven and earth pass and everything is fulfilled which obviously has not happened given that heaven and earth are still here and a simple review of numerous scriptures throughout the Bible (e.g. see Daniel, Revelation, Matthew, and so on and so on.) shows that there is much that has to come to pass whether that be natural events, actions by humans, or workings of the Creator. This is to be done by believers whether of Israel by birth or gentile who are now children of Abraham, the children of the promise. Attempts to explain away what He says are useless except to show the ignorance and stupidity of those who waste time doing that.
Herbert Armstrong claimed he knew the directives of the Creator, but he did not and there are multiple lies over the years from him such as false predictions (his denial of being a prophet which is true gives him no escape from his lies about things that did not happen and will not), false teachings on various parts of the Torah which he used to get what he wanted (e.g. tithes which never belonged to his church while Torah shows where tithes belong), and others. wcg was SDA plus some more rules.
None of that from the halcyon wcg days nor the present loonies (lonnies?) does anything to deny or remove what the Messiah says in Matthew 5. Yet, Lonnie still sticks with the love (your neighbor as yourself) is all you need so he does not have to do what the herbster said and what acogs still say. Rejecting the herbaceous is the correct thing to do, but it does not eliminate the requirements Matthew 5 shows are still in place and what the Messiah did, does, and will do which Lonnie does not want to do.
In other words, you have to learn yourself like Bereans did because the world won't teach you apart from that being one's responsibility anyway. Note: true believers can learn truth from others, but one has to prove it himself. The truth which again herbie and the herbsters did not, do not, and will not have much of is not to be thrown away. Get rid of the wrong and learn and do the right is what one is to do. It shows faith in the One who did, does, and will do perfectly all the time forever.
Part 2 of 2
Lonnie has been notified on this forum that some believe same sex relationships are fine (they are just loving another as they love themselves so they think) which is only one example of quite a few that show there is much more to the correct love others as yourself concept. It includes everything the Creator has directed as the Messiah clearly says in Matthew 22:37-40. That does not mean that they are hung as in dead. It means these actions are what is the ultimate of what these other commands mean when they are actually done by a believer.
Lonnie has said that he has expressed his feelings on such relationships. However, Lonnie's feelings have nothing to do with Torah and what he says is false which is a result of trying not to have one statement disagree with another (i.e. he does not agree with such relationships, but he knows he cannot say it is in effect even today because the love is all you need argument is then destroyed). He is doing the same as the herbsters did and will continue to do, but with a different take (incorrect) on a correct belief in this case.
If he does start stating that some of the Torah is true which is absolutely happening when one admits that same sex relationships are wrong, he is stuck. He knows it and he can write forever and will never prove his point no matter what is feelings are. However, he may lead others to this wrongdoing.
Even many in conservative religious denominations know this. They know that there are directives in Torah that are true and will continue to be. They just spend their time trying to make themselves (by trying to convince others) that all this old stuff has gone away because the Messiah took care of that for the believers. In other words, He says don't act like Me because I already acted like that so you do not have to act that way. That is an odd way to follow an example basically because it is not following it.
Same old same old. It goes on an on just like the so-called ministers talk about the the wrongs of the herbsters (which are many and massive), but won't pay back the salaries they stole while every once in a while coming by to dispense some great truth about how things really are as they try to teach the laity what truly is true. Just because this false teacher has a smaller impact, it is no less evil and destructive. Keep reading Matthew 5, Add James 2 to that, and you will see.
I wonder if the two stones of Moses actually refer to testicles. Plenty of things in the bible have dual meaning.
πληρῶσαι
According to Biblehub, "fulfill", Strong's 4137, is translated from a Greek word that is "spelled" 36 different ways and the above spelling is only in 4 verses.....Mat 5:17, Mat 3:15 - to fulfill all righteousness; Romans 15:13......fill you with all joy and peace; Col 1:25.....to fulfill the word of God.
The word of God, joy and peace, and righteousness, have not ended. Neither has the law in Ex 20-23.
It strikes me as odd why people hate the Sabbath, as if it were evil and needs to be crushed at all costs. Considering the time they devote to demolishing it, it must be worse than murder or adultery. It was good enough for Jesus, but not good enough for them.
BP8, Saturday, February 28, 2026 at 10:06:49 AM PST, wrote:
"...And we are told elsewhere that the Fathers doesn't even make an appearance until Christ "hath put down all rule and authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:24-25)..."
******
Why do you believe Christ puts down all rule...authority and power?
Hebrews 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool."
Of course, many scriptures cite Jesus Christ at His God's, at His Father's, right hand.
Psalm 110:1 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
Will that LORD, Jesus' God, Jesus' Father, be the One to make Jesus' enemies a footstool?
Time will tell...
John
As my post indicates, I believe that Scripture is very clear that Torah is an ALL or NOTHING proposition for the people of Israel. Likewise, I think that the overwhelming weight of the Scriptural evidence available to us suggest that Christians are NOT obligated to observe Torah. Nevertheless, each of us is responsible for doing our own due diligence and research, and personal conscience is important to God. I strongly advise everyone NOT to do ANYTHING which violates his/her own conscience (that's called sin).
My own views on various theological topics (including human sexuality) are well-documented and VERY PUBLIC. I have written numerous essays for this blog over the years. I have also authored some 1,100+ posts on my own blog (all available to anyone who may be interested). My objective has always been to help folks to think for themselves - to think about why they believe what they believe and encourage them to continue to explore and test whether or not those beliefs are logical and consistent with the canon. We see through a glass darkly, and I am confident that I don't have it all figured out. I also hope that no one reading this feels like he/she has achieved perfection yet either.
We should all want to be within God's will - whatever that is, and we should all be willing to admit error and bend the knee before our Creator.
Do you perhaps mean "polylogism"?
Is 4:43 going to wake up safely in the morning? Or will they have a good week?
Did Joseph keep the sabbath as Prime Minister of Egypt under a Pharaoh? Would an Egyptian Pharaoh have allowed anyone there to keep a sabbath?
The reoccuring problem with those that emerge from the COG world with 'enlightened' teaching, that the rest of COG Sabbath Christian world should cast off all beliefs, and follow them in Jesus being our rest, is their own problematic characters and lives.
Their ownselves are a major contradiction to showing that God has allegedly sent them to save the rest of the Sabbath Christians.
Ronald L Dart highlighted this major problem for them in the 80's and 90's with the movements champion of Joseph Tkach and his henchmen and hench women. "Look at their lives, and look how they treat others".
Bullying and mocking is their raison d'entre. Spreading rumors and lies about others to cause division and hatred. Plotting to destroy Sabbath Christians lives, desiring to destroy marriages. Ron Dart used to teach it was all about power and control and indeed thirty years later it still is.
The blessings and joy of knowing God and Jesus Christ. To be baptised in Jesus name, to have a covenant relationship and to have even the opportunity to spend a lifetime learning about God goes beyond mere words. To have in your personal life the Passover and the Holy days brings such depth of learning about God and personal joy no other human can take away from you.
To try and gather others into this blessed walk is a privledge too many on here turn their noses up at.
As a tremendously, inspiring great lady at the UCG member survey video said " There is much work to do, but we are all headed towards the marriage supper of the Lamb in the Kingdom."
8.45. Pharaoh did not make Joseph number two in the nation out of charity. He did so because he had performance power. Pharaoh knew that God communicated directly with Joseph, so why would he offend Joseph's God by persecuting Joseph for practicing his religion?
4.25, do you think the angels don't keep the Sabbath today? I believe they do, and for the same reason humans keep it. If they keep it today, they also kept it before God created man.
BP8 10:06
BP8 wrote, “Scout 743 writes "The book of Revelation gives no indication a physical temple will be restored". Is it necessary that it does?
The Temple was the center of worship for Israel. John of Patmos does not neglect the Temple but points out that it is now God and the Lamb. It is extraordinarily unlikely that if there were physical Temple worship going on in the Millennial future that John of Patmos would have no inspiration to mention it. Just doesn’t compute. So, yes, it is necessary if Biblical priorities are to be maintained.
BP8 further wrote, “The book of Revelation covers a lot of ground. In chapter 21 we see that Christ isn't the temple UNTIL the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, which is AFTER the millennial reign.”
Christ was the Temple when he was here on this earth. The spoke of this to the Pharisees when he pointed out that his body was the Temple. The Ekklesia is referred to as the Temple and is equated with the Body of Christ. You can find the scriptures.
BP8 also wrote, “I believe this vindicates both multi-part man and the Old Testament prophets.”
The prophets prophesied until John. Whatever seemed to extend beyond that is captured by Jesus and his ministry. The Temple prophecies in the OT foreshadow Jesus as the true Temple, even if the prophecies seem to be pre-occupied with architecture. The spiritual content of the prophecies is in Christ.
Multi-part man’s strategy, I think, is clear. He is following the Armstrongist idea that the New Testament is just the Old Testament made more spiritually stringent. So, he must exegete the idea that we should be following the Old Testament now and will be following it in the Millennial future. This includes Temple worship and sacrifices in the future. (I am not sure why the Temple liturgy is excluded now. Armstrongists used to believe that the rebuilding of the Temple was imminent and the “son of perdition” would eventually appear there. A Temple can’t be a Temple unless God overtly places his name there. Yet, Armstrongists have usurped the idea of God placing his name to refer to identifying the locations for the Feast of Tabernacles. It’s messy.)
My guess is the Multi-part man has a constituency that believes that he has nailed down the exegesis that supports the Armstrongist mingling of the OT and NT. The problem is that if his arguments hold, there would have been no controversy over the Circumcision and the book of Hebrews would not have a place in the Bible. Flooding the zone with OT scriptures does not alter that.
For more on the Temple, have a look at:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2025/06/pondering-armstrongist-torah-redo.html
Scout
This last quote by Hamilton refers to Christ coming through the line of Jacob to save mankind…not that the other descendants of Jacob would somehow mediate the Lord’s blessings to the world.
Outside of some health issues, my life is pretty good. Darlene and I have two beautiful daughters, seven beautiful grandchildren, and two sons-in-law who are genuinely good men and fathers. Although I don't think that it has any bearing on my salvation, I continue to observe the Sabbath and consider it a blessing. I have never plotted "to destroy Sabbath Christians lives," or anyone's marriage. Moreover, in spite of the abuse I suffered during my association with Armstrongism, I remain a faithful, baptized Christian and also look forward to the marriage supper of the Lamb (and I hope to see everyone here there).
Why how crass, and vulgar, 4:43!
Part1and2 person,
You are not a lawkeeper. You ignore plenty of Sinai laws that Armstrong said were unnecessary for today. You break other laws you wish to keep. You are a breaker of the Law.
But, for most who claim law-keeping, it means one thing: sabbath keeping (unclean foods and a couple others not withstanding). The sabbath is what matters to them.
On this issue they believe they can call themselves lawkeepers and any that disagree with their sabbath view are apparently corrupted and thus wish to “break” all things listed in the Sinai covenant.
I’m going to try to keep this short:
1) Sinai law given to Israel…not Christians (this is repeated throughout the Bible).
2) Since Christians are not under the old covenant and the terms/law within it, there must be some terms/law they follow as Christians.
3) Yes. The terms are the Law of Christ that starts with faith and is the love of the Lord and neighbor.
4) The new covenant includes teachings and instructions on right living. All of the “10 commandments” except for the sabbath are reiterated in the new covenant. And, there are others such as generosity including those teachings in Matt.5.
5. This is the New Covenant/contract. This is the covenant/contract we are to follow. Why would someone demand going by the terms of the old contract? Gal. 4 tells us if you follow the old contract you will not inherit with those that follow the new contract.
6. Christ is the Way, the Truth, and The Life. Following Him is the new contract. Trusting Him is the New Contract. Loving Him and neighbor is the New Contract. The Helper we receive is the New Contract.
The New Contract is described by Jesus and His apostles. Those are where we find the terms and instructions.
7. The old covenant provides additional depth and background. The differences help us see the greatness of the new covenant with some references to the old. There are a cloud of witnesses that we can draw faith and encouragement from. They all followed God in accordance with the terms they were under. These witnesses would wish for us to follow the new covenant.
8. There are very real concerns when one focuses on Sinai Law keeping which again boils down largely to the sabbath. Paul questions “you who wish to be under the law” and tells us we are hanging onto the “slave woman (the law)” rather than the free woman (the new covenant). My concern is this is not trivial as there may be very little reward for those who choose to be under sinai law.
9. Lastly, the FACT there is no command to keep the sabbath before the Exodus and after the coming of the Savior is significant and not an oversight. The cogs view this command as THE command. But, the command is never given…except to Israel. Don’t hang on to the Slave woman.
My younger brother once told me that Jesus was sent to us to teach us Buddhism. I took that as a joke at the time. My brother was a jokester. In fact, he put on his joke strap very early every morning and wore it all day long! But, it was a unique enough statement, that it becomes one of those things which makes one wonder, and over the ensuing years I realized that Jesus kept the law, not self-righteously as we would,, not as a weapon as some envision God, but in such a way that always generated perfect karma! HWA and his followers missed the point of the law completely. We made an idol out of the law such that it became a means unto itself, when actually the results which keeping the law should bring right now, in real time, in our daily lives today were what was most important. The point missed is made evident by the scoffing with which Armstrongites respond even today every time the Two Great Commandments of the Lord (TGCOL) are mentioned.
And, it's not that difficult to understand. If corrections are to be made, this deserves infinitely more attention than does finding "the right combination" of math. And, it is not antinomianism, as some accuse. It represents an expansion, deeper depths, the entire goal or objective of the law. Perfect Karma = a perfect world.
BB
2:04 ~ I believe you are inadvertently creating a strawman of those who have left Armstrongism. There are many types of people commenting here. There are in fact some of the atheist commenters who attempt to destroy not only Armstrongism, but actually all religion. Oddly enough, as we have seen, they actually study their Bibles to do this. There are other atheists who are neutral, will not waste their time on something which they believe not to exist, and who try to live by time tested secular ethics. There are people who have disproven Armstrongism, but still seriously live by a Christian code, and others who want to live by Burger King rules ("Have it your way!"). Most of us who have been around long term realize that at this point in time we're not going to change anybody's belief system, and simply share for the purpose of discussion.
I don't know if I could respect someone if my words here could change their entire belief system. I don't know that I would want the responsibility for that. I would like to see people not participate in some of the more toxic aspects we've all picked up along the way, and not be controlled by those who would exploit and lie to them. There is an example for all of us that many from opposite sides cannot see, or will not see. Observant Jews. They keep the sabbath, holy days, eat clean meets, and they generously contribute financially to their local Temple, Synagogue, or Chabad. And, they take joy in this. They dance with the Torah! It is not the customs from Torah that produced the toxic environment in Armstrongism. It is other ingredients which HWA added!
Whether or not we believe that Jesus brought updated information and change as the next step in the gradual growth of the human species, there should not be toxicity. There should not be the usurping and grieving of the Holy Spirit or the searing of consciences caused by authoritarian church government. Manipulative, uninspired false prophecy should not have any place in this process. What could you call such things other than bad, evil fruits? Should we go along to get along? Everybody has to make that decision for themselves, of their own volition, or it doesn't count!
Lonnie, why do you use two male names yet you are married to a woman? Aren't you the one who a few years ago justified homosexual love as an example of keeping the law in the spirit?
Another useless and ad nauseum post from you against the law, even though you say you are a Sabbath-keeper. Let's see. You keep the Sabbath because it's a good idea but not because it is a commandment or necessary for eternal life, thus not giving glory to God but only doing it strictly for your own personal benefit? (in that case you don't get a reward from God because you are not doing it for Him) All kinds of contradictions from you yet the refutations have already been posted in the past.
You say that God gave it strictly to Israel. Well, Christ testified that He gave it to "mankind" when He said, "The Sabbath was made for man."
And why did Christ say, "Full well you reject the commandment of God..." if the commandments were being done away by Him? Why force people to keep the law with him for a few more years of His life before His crucifixion?
This post is weaker than your past posts with some desperation setting in as you age.
Phinnpoy, above, said that there is no proof that anyone kept the Sabbath before Moses. The proof is somewhat hidden (yet you would likely discredit it) but it can be found with a little search and belief. For one, Abraham kept the commandments. (Gen 26) And Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, as did Jacob, so the basic law was around back then. If the Lord sanctified the 7th day He surely revealed it to Adam and the righteous line. And the Sabbath is a greater command than tithing. All of this pertains to New Covenant believers. No mention of circumcision here because it has been refuted already.
You people keep attacking HWA's teachings yet you don't realize that there are many Christians, before us and after us, who are Sabbath-keepers and Feast observers, even tithers, and maybe even some who observe the dietary laws. More and more churches it seems are going away from the church's basic doctrines probably because the law keeps getting defaced by the newer generation (in favour of human reason) that is steeped in Protestant theology and doctrine.
You also criticize believers for their pick-and-choose philosophy re the law. Well, you do it too, when you take something from the Sabbath and other laws. We all do. Even Christ did in Mt 5-7 when He said, "You may have heard this but I am telling you this." THIS IS WHAT THE NT PRIESTHOOD IS AUTHORIZED TO DO. Even the apostles picked and chose at the Jerusalem conference in Acts 15. This is where the faithful are divided from the faithless because they can see where the Spirit is moving. They check the facts. They collect evidence. They won't accept errors or academic gobbledygook that can't be packaged into a clean, coherent form.
Why do you envy those who keep the righteous requirements of the law, that is, the law of Christ that we can't agree on? You think you know what motivates them but you don't. As I said before, if you think you are saved by grace why does someone else's law-keeping displease you, since you say that you have the grace of salvation. Are you worried that God might save a law-keeper?
Ok 2:06. So you keep all the law perfectly? Or not? If not, have you lost your salvation? You aren’t saved by grace, you’re saved by your law keeping, right? It’s one or the other. You’ve chosen the difficult self righteous way. Good luck.
Anonymous March 1@ 2:06 PM,
Men usually wear masculine monikers - one is a pen name, the other is my real name. It is no secret that I am a celibate gay man who continues to live with the mother of his children. Of course, all of that is irrelevant to this conversation about Torah, but I'm not trying to hide anything or be disingenuous about my own circumstances or background.
I continue to observe the Sabbath for a couple of reasons: 1) It is now habitual - I've been doing it for 48 years now, 2) It gives me an opportunity to focus on God and things spiritual, 3) It is a nod to my Ashkenazi Jewish ancestors - a sign of respect for their contribution to me. I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the real rest that the Sabbath pointed to. Likewise, I believe that ALL of the festivals pointed to different aspects of Christ and his work.
As for this post being weaker than past posts or smacking of desperation, I'm afraid that the fact that no one has taken up the task of addressing my rebuttal of the two strongest arguments that Armstrong and his followers have mustered for the obligation of Christians to observe Torah says otherwise. Personal attacks or reiterations of Armstrong's teachings do NOT constitute responses to the points made in this post! And, don't forget, it was Herbert Armstrong and his followers who claimed that Torah observance was necessary for salvation, and that all of those Sunday keepers and folks who celebrated Christmas were NOT "true" Christians.
Indeed, over the years, I have consistently regarded Sabbath keepers as brothers and sisters in Christ, and I've always believed that God has the ability to save them through Jesus of Nazareth. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that many of my Armstrongist friends are generally the ones to talk about "false" churches and "false" Christians. Talk about bullying and making fun of other folks beliefs - oh, the irony!
Finally, as for cherry picking Torah, I would remind you again that Jesus Christ identified the two greatest commandments, not me, not his apostles, or any of the folks who have claimed to have inherited his mantle. The ONE example you cite of apostles picking and choosing, the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), actually demonstrates that the apostles realized that Gentiles didn't have to observe the tenets of the Old Covenant, Torah! Now, for those who are really interested in obeying God's Law, they will be found observing the two commandments which actually fulfill it. Even so, bottom line, our salvation is through Jesus Christ and God's grace - it is an unmerited GIFT!
Anonymous 03/0/26 2:06:55 PM sabbath keeping is regarded as a life and death matter in the law. If the 7th day sabbath was to be kept from creation, Genesis should have some instructions about it. Instead, we find none at all.
Angels keeping a sabbath? Nope, the sabbath was made for man, the men under the Old Covenant. Angels were never in bondage in Egypt, and they never had to be reminded who created the weekly cycle.
As mentioned in previous posts I have a 3D model of Ezekiel’s Temple, based on my interpretation of Ezekiel 40—48.
Eze 46:20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.
This is an eclectic temple in that there are features which are not included in the text. For instances in the kitchens (Ezek 46:19-24) I have hand-operated water pumps to emphasize the boiling of sacrifices; to complement the steam rising from the cooking pots.
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; (AV).
Heb 8:2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent that the Lord, and not any mortal, has set up. (NRSV).
"... the Tent into which Christ has entered consists of a Most Holy Place which is heaven itself..." (Gareth Lee Cockerill, The Epistle to the Hebrews, NICOT, pp.354-55).
Also the finished floor level of the Holy of Holies is four long cubits above the finished floor level of the holy place to point to the two realms of heaven. The higher realm of the “type” is where God is and the lower realm is where Satan and the demons are presently; but soon to be replaced by Jesus and the Saints.
“The use of the terms by Hebrews is not that of modern typological language (or of Ro 5:14; 1 Cor:6, 11; 1 Pet 3:21) in which the "type" is the preliminary model and the "antitype" its later and greater fulfillment; but the thought here operates on a different principle, not the "horizontal" trajectory of historical progression but the "vertical" comparison of heaven and earth"” (R. T. France, Hebrews, EBC, Revised, Vol.13, p.123). So “type” in heaven and “antitype” on earth.
I would like in the future, not near-future, to have a website to display some of the renders of the temple.
But in doing so I do not want to take away from the centrality of Jesus in the gospel.
So I have decided to entitle the potential website “Jesus Christ and The Coming World”; or TCW, for short. A semi-colon after Christ would have been preferable but it takes away from the presentation of the title.
Below is a rough draft to introduce the website. As an “old covenant” Christian it is not going to be up to the standard of a “new covenant” Christian.
“Jesus and The Coming World”
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom [basileias] shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (AV).
Mat 24:14 and this good news of the reign [basileias] shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive. (YLT).
The ‘good news” that shall be proclaimed in all the world before the end may be summarized as “the redemptive reign of Jesus Christ”.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 4:12b for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (AV).
Key aspects this summary encompasses:
Good News (Gospel): The inherent meaning of the word "gospel" itself, suggests a message of hope and salvation.
Redemptive: Jesus' actions (life, crucifixion, and resurrection) offer salvation and reconciliation between humanity and God.
Reign: Refers to the present and future reign of Jesus as Savior and Lord.
Part 2
Ac 1:6 ... they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom:...
It includes the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth; and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in heaven - replacement of Satan’s kingdom:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
“Paul shares with other New Testament writers, and with Jesus himself, the belief in the existence of a dark power to whom the human race, and the world, is subject because of sin - and the belief that, in Jesus Christ, God had defeated this power and is establishing his own kingdom in its place” (N. T. Wright, Colossians and Philemon, TNTC, p.62).
“The kingdom of God thus represents the triumph of God’s plan of salvation over human sin and demonic opposition” (Larry W. Hurtado, Mark, NIBC, p. 22).
One Gospel
Mk 1:14 ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Ro 1:16 ... the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
“These Scriptures highlight a common theological distinction, where the two Scriptures represent complementary facets of a single overarching message rather than different gospels.
“Redemptive / “Gospel of Christ”: This aspect emphasizes Jesus's atoning work—his sacrificial death, burial, and resurrection—which provides the means for forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God. It focuses on personal salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of the Savior and the justification of the individual sinner.
“Reign / “Gospel of the Kingdom of God”: This aspect emphasizes God's active rule and sovereignty over all creation, which has broken into human history in the person and mission of Jesus. It concerns the transformation of lives and communities to align with God's will and divine principles (love, justice, peace) and the ultimate, future consummation of God's perfect reign in the Messianic Age.
“In essence, the "gospel of Christ" can be seen as the door to salvation (the means of entry), while the “gospel of the Kingdom” describes the sphere and lifestyle one enters through that door, living under God's active reign and experiencing its transformative power now, while awaiting its full realization in the future. The core message is one, encompassing both the personal redemptive work of Jesus and the cosmic scope of God's reigning authority” (AI with changes).
Jn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
“... a response is expected when the king comes to reign; that is, one should turn away from their old way of life (repentance) to embrace the reign and rule of the king... to make Jesus the centre, or the hub of your life” (David M. Shaw, The Already and Not-Yet Kingdom au.thegospelcoalition.org).
The coming of God's reign either demands repentance or brings judgment (Cp. D. A. Carson, Matthew, EBC, Vol. 8, p.103).
Rule of God - "now but not yet" reality
Mk 1:14 ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, (AV).
Mk 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the reign of God has arrived: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (paraphrase).
Lk 19:11 ... and spake a parable ... because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
“This tension between the “already” and the “not yet” — the kingdom has already arrived, and the kingdom has not yet come — is a commonplace of biblical thought” (D. A. Carson, How Long, O LORD? p.120).
“God's plans were inaugurated through the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus, and will be consummated at his return as the Son of Man” (Colin G. Kruse, John Rev., TOTC, p.121).
Part 3
“Evangelical Christians have been so exercised with the eschatological or futuristic aspects of the Kingdom of God that is has often ceased to have immediate relevance to contemporary Christian life except as a hope. Thus the very term, the “Kingdom of God,” to many Christians means first of all the millennial reign of Christ on earth. This, however, misplaces the emphasis of the Gospels. The distinctive characteristic about Jesus’ teaching is that in some real sense, the Kingdom of God has come in his person and mission (Matt 12:28)” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.xi).
“Jesus not only departed from usual idiom by speaking of the Kingdom of God as an eschatological realm; he also used the term also to designate a realm of salvation which is present. This is not surprising. If the eschatological coming of God’s Kingdom issues in a realm of salvation in which his people enjoy the blessings of his reign, and if God’s Kingdom has in fact already manifested itself in the mission of Jesus, we might expect that this would issue in a realm in which men may experience the blessings of God’s present rule” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.196).
Mt 21:31 ... Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mt 11:11 ...there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
“In Matthew 11:11, Jesus says that the one who is (now) in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.197).
“These ... are said to be “in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 11:11) because they received the rule of God proclaimed by Jesus. Therefore they may be said already to enter the Kingdom of God” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., pp.198-99).
“God’s Kingdom, his kingly rule, has become dynamically active in history, creating a new realm of blessing into which men enter. This too is called the Kingdom of God” (George Eldon Ladd, The Presence of the Future, Rev. ed., p.202).
Why the title “The Coming World”?
It takes its start from “Olam Haba”: “The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age” (jewfaq.org/afterlife).
The future aspect of the Kingdom/Reign of God/Jesus refers to two realms — an earthly kingdom inhabited by human-beings and an heavenly kingdom inhabited by spirit-beings.
“In one sense the kingdom had come in the person of Jesus, who was fulfilling God’s will perfectly. In another sense, it was gradually COMING, in lives surrendered to God. In a third sense, God would introduce it universally at the ‘last day’ ” (R. Allen Cole, Mark, TOTC, p.112)
Mt 1:20 ... behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David ... Mary thy wife:
Mt 1:21 ...shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt 1:23 ... and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
As Jesus is at the heart of the gospel — there can be no kingdom without Jesus — the good news must include “the now” of the reign of the Christ. So “The Coming World” has been chosen as “coming” has both a present and a future sense.
Part 4
Graphic of “The Coming World”.
Why a graphic of the Messianic Temple when the title is of a coming world?
It is based on Revelation 21:1-3
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
“... Why does John see ‘a new heaven and a new earth’ in Revelation 21:1 and yet in 21:2-3, 10-22:3 he sees a city that is garden-like, in the shape of a temple? Why does not John see a full panorama of the new heavens and earth? Why does he not see the many forests, rivers, mountains, streams, valleys and the many other features of fertile worldwide creation?” (G. K. Beale, The Temple and the Church’s Mission, p. 23).
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
“John in verse 3 “hears a ‘loud great voice’ proclaiming that ‘the tabernacle of God is among men, and he shall dwell among them’. It is likely that the second vision in verse 2 interprets the first vision of the new cosmos, and that what is heard about the tabernacle in verse 3 interprets both 1 and 2. If so, the new creation of verse 1 is identical to the ‘new Jerusalem’ of verse 2 and both represent the same reality as the ‘tabernacle’ of verse 3” (G. K. Beale, The Temple and the Church’s Mission, p. 24).
Eze 43:7a And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, (AV).
God, through Jesus, will have a dwelling presence in the Millennial Temple.
“YHWH is building a new Temple, therefore creating a new world” (Jon D. Levenson, The Temple and the World, p.295).
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
This world is the “New Covenant Kingdom of God”.
“The concept that God reigns on earth through a temple is a central theme throughout the Bible, evolving from a physical structure to a spiritual reality and ultimately to a restored creation. The temple serves as the intersection of heaven and earth, where God’s presence resides and His authority is manifested” (AI).
Ps 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
“At the Israelite sanctuary, where God dwells among human beings, he provided intimate interaction through rituals” (Cp. Roy Gane, Altar Call, p. 56).
Lev 21:6b for they [the priests] offer the gifts of the YHWH, the food of their God (Jacob Milgrom).
“The uniqueness of religious “rituals” lies in the fact that ... rituals are believed to interact with God who is out of the reach of our physical, material world” (Cp. Roy Gane, Altar Call, p. 56).
Eze 43:27aα1 the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; AND I WILL ACCEPT YOU, saith the Lord GOD.
Yahweh will accept the people, and not just the sacrifices, because their conduct will be pleasing to Him.
Ritual, therefore, connects heaven and earth - the seen and unseen worlds (cp. Roy Gane, Cult and Character, p.16).
Part 5
Blessing - God with His people
Eze 43:2a And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east:
Eze 43:4a And the glory of the LORD came into the house
Eze 47:1aβ and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward:
Eze 47:8a Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country
Eze 47:9b ... and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (AV).
Eze 47:12aα1-aγ Every month they will bear, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them (NIV).
“There is an implicit reminder that this was the route that Yahweh had travelled in his return to the temple (43:1-5). The stream, virtually retraced his path, was flowing from the very presence of God” (Leslie C. Allen, Ezekiel 20-48, WBC, p. 279).
“The concept that God reigning in a temple on earth brings prosperity and well-being is a central theme in biblical theology, linking divine presence with tangible blessings, peace, and order” (AI).
God comes into the Temple and blessings flow out, symbolized by the river of life.
Well, you can argue that this post is a big TLDR, but it sure got some spittle flying anyway.
Hey 5:36:00, why not post the entire Encyclopædia Brittanica volumes set on here too while you're at it...Part LXXVII & then some
BP8 1:51
There are theologians who believe the Ezekiel 45 Temple will be a fixture in the Millennium. I think the idea may even be popular among evangelicals in North America. I do not buy into the idea for the reasons I have expressed. I have an exegesis that I believe makes sense.
Even though there are evangelicals that support the idea of an Ezekiel 45 Temple during the Millennium, they do not typically support the idea that the Old Testament is re-implemented during the Millennium. I would guess that idea is a principal feature of Multi-part Man’s argument because it supports the Armstrongist co-mingling of the OT and NT. But Armstrongists hoist themselves on their own petard. They do not keep the OT. They keep only select parts of it. They better hope that Multi-part man is wrong or they will have a date with Gehenna (because they know the truth but don’t follow it according to their theology of infernalism). In any event, the persistence of the OT is a separate exegesis. Just having a Temple around during the Millenium does not seal the deal.
So, in the last analysis, Multi-part man is not “dead on” nor does he have a persuasive exegesis for the full argument that he is trying to make - the idea that HWA was right.
Scout
The phrase "speak unto the children of Israel" occurs 32 times in the Pentateuch (https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=speak+unto+the+children+of+Israel&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1)
There are also ten similar phrases in those writings. In the book of Deuteronomy, there are a number of other phases used which make clear who is being addressed:
"Hear, O Israel"
"Spake unto all Israel"
"called all Israel"
In other words, this kind of language is ubiquitous in Torah.
Once again, the same old, same old. The Torah is in effect for everybody. The Messiah says so in Matthew 5.
That being said. If there is not a temple as in the present, you can’t worship there and if you’re a Gentile, you’re not going to anyway.
You can and are required to observe other commandments, although for instance, the rules of marriage would not apply to one who is not married. Yet, other rules would apply to that person that wouldn’t apply to a married person when it comes to things like intimacy, for example.
It is not necessary to engage in temple worship, according to Acts 15. Nevertheless, you can go back and study history, where for example Roman rulers would give free will offerings to the temple. They were not rejected and arguments can go on about it, but the truth is they were received.
The concept of Gentiles don’t have to and Israel does has nothing to do with scripture. Again, a gentile who is a believer is a child of our a child of the promise.Alsi again, Acts 15 lists things that Gentiles were not to do, but then it said that the rest they would learn in the synagogue on Shabbat.
The Messiah never says that there are different rules Or different groups of believers and that love your neighbor as yourself and love the Father with all your heart are on which all the others are based.
It’s time for everybody to decide who’s lying, the Messiah or someone else (another form of herbster).
Awritten previously, this is once again a waste of time.
Scout 646
I will take your comment as is, but you really didn't address any of the points I raised.
Also, I think multi-part man goes WAY BEYOND what HWA ever had to say on the subject. I don't know who the man is but he should have been HWA's right hand man instead of Hoeh. The organization may have survived!
The organization was doomed to die as are the offshoots. There may be some around for a long time, but they are on foundations of sand. That is what happens when perverts dispense a perverted gospel whether its herbster or something else like catholic.
For a waste of time, it sure has provoked a lot of commentary.
And yet, God did NOT grant HWA correct understanding of end times prophecy, as he insisted, or we'd all be in the Kingdom right now instead of having this discussion. Something was dreadfully wrong with the Armstrong collection of so-called restored truths, and it was not the math! None of the nostalgia ACOGs have it right, either, or they would be blessed, growing, visible, and getting out that end time message in power. There would be a plethora of better reports of truly Christian behavior forthcoming, instead of the horrors, debauchery, and messed up families we constantly read of here and other places. I mean, come on! Murders? Suicides? More splinters? And, whomever you are, don't counter me with your mantra that these same things are happening in all the mainstream churches, because the people who brought you "God's True Church" always pretended to be different, and above such misbehavior. Apparently they knew the correct name, but somehow never could live up to it!
Our problem (or our parents' problem) was that we permitted HWA to lie his way around Matt. 24:36-37. And then, when he was caught in that lie, he backpedaled. He convinced us that he knew the unknowable! And, he repeatedly reminded us that the endtimes were imminent in his many letters throughout the 1950s, '60s, and early '70s, signed "In Jesus' Name"! If that was not the be all, tell all and end all, I don't know what is!
Just one question, 7:26. Is Deut. 22:28-29 still to be kept under the New Covenant?
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
The Torah goes into many details about unclean meats for which HWA gave his members a pass. We should not have even been eating in restaurants which cut, and cooked clean and unclean meats with the same utensils and on the same grill!
We should not have worn garments made of mixed materials. We should have been wearing our blue tzitzits.
God said that you must keep the whole law! Do not add, do not take away. If you break part of the law, you are guilty of breaking all the law. Under a curse! Herbie? Not so much. Apparently he wanted to make the law convenient! And yet he complained about those who modified the sabbath! What a 'crit!
Once again, the same old, same old. The Torah is in effect for everybody. The Messiah says so in Matthew 5.
May I recommend you buy a very good little book. I note it is also available on Kindle. https://www.michaeljvlach.com/the-new-covenant-lawgiver
This book examines the relationship of Jesus and Law from Matthew 5:17-48. Specifically, it addresses Jesus' relationship to both the Mosaic Law and New Covenant Law. There are other good works too.
While there are differing views I think in the reading of it you will likely be less dogmatic than the above.
Gentiles came out of Egypt with the Israelites led by Moses.
Lonnie two names is a female and not a man.
How do you know the inner beliefs of posters commenting on this blog ?
I very much doubt many who comment on this blog left the Church, if at all. The gift of a drop of discernment can see through alot.
Even in this comment you mock and judge others with your 'Burger King rules' remark, I have no idea what that is specifically insulting, most probably people who cannot be manipulated easily by Ministry.
It is this blog that gives Pack and his kind more attention than they can muster themselves.
I see you show Jews respect for what they do, even though they openly reject Jesus as Messiah, yet you condemn Sabbath Christians as 'Armstrongisim' when they do accept Jesus as Messiah. I think that reveals alot to be pondered on.
How do you know the inner beliefs of posters commenting on this blog ?
I very much doubt many who comment on this blog left the Church, if at all. The gift of a drop of discernment can see through alot.
Even in this comment you mock and judge others with your 'Burger King rules' remark, I have no idea what that is specifically insulting, most probably people who cannot be manipulated easily by Ministry.
It is this blog that gives Pack and his kind more attention than they can muster themselves.
I see you show Jews respect for what they do, even though they openly reject Jesus as Messiah, yet you condemn Sabbath Christians as 'Armstrongisim' when they do accept Jesus as Messiah. I think that reveals alot to be pondered on.
My comment concerning multi-part man was tongue in cheek. It was not meant to pump up HWA. If you pay close attention to multi-part man's comments, you will notice he not only validates his points with manifold scripture, but he backs it up with a profusion of extra-biblical non WCG sources. He's not quoting old Plain Truth magazines or promoting Armstrongism. That's how I see it.
Well 4:43 “feet” actually is an OT euphemism for genitals so when Moses’ wife snipped the tip of their firstborn son’s penis and threw it at Moses’ “feet” she was throwing it at his genitals.
9:56
Re Dt 22:28-29 this case law has been misinterpreted for so long. It’s got nothing to do with rape and everything to do with seduction and consensual sex (cf Ex 22:16-17).
The case law re rape is Dt 22:25-27 in which the penalty is for the rapist to be executed.
For those who are truly seeking to follow God's will in this matter, I encourage you to read the three-part series on "As Bereans Did" blog. Copy and paste:
https://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2026/03/the-road-to-sabbatarianism-part-iii.html
@ 11:59 ~ What a toxic comment, bully!
Scripture, please,11:51?
BP8 wrote, “I will take your comment as is, but you really didn't address any of the points I raised.”
Ok, here goes.
You wrote, “But you say John of Patmos should have inspiration to mention Bible priorities? Really? Where does he mention the Virgin birth? Where does he talk about the law of Christ? No, he doesn't need to mention those things because OTHER SCRIPTURES DO!”
It is a matter of context. Revelation is the perfect context for bringing up any physical Temple, were such to exist. Most of Revelation is about God and Christ and their personal engagement with the world during the Millennium. The book contains a number of reference to the Temple. So to speak, the Temple is on God’s mind. And it is always the heavenly Temple of God or God and the Lamb as Temple. The Ezekiel 45 Temple is conspicuous by its absence.
You believe it is absent because it was mentioned elsewhere. I believe that argument is sophistic. The Ezekiel 45 Temple is absent because Christ is the Temple and has been so from the time he tabernacled in the flesh. He is the locus of the worship of God. And this locus is for the present age and all the ages to come continuously.
You wrote, “According to 2 Corinthians 6:16, I'm a temple, but this is quite different from
the temple mentioned in Revelation…”
In John 2, Jesus is actually in the Temple and refers to his body as the Temple. Apparently, Christ believed that he was the Temple. Identification of Christ with the Temple unquestionable.
You wrote, “Bullinger's commentary at Revelation 21:22 in the Companion Bible reads, " This shows clearly that the wonders and glories revealed here belong to the POST millennial times and ages.”
Yes, it does. But Jesus as Temple also belongs to the present Age and continuously thereafter. You may want to try to exegete where Jesus relinquishes his role as Temple and passes it along to a physical structure during the Millennium. Multi-part Man has it inverted. In the view of many Christians, the symbolic Ezekiel 45 Temple points to Christ. Multi-part has Jesus stepping aside to let the symbol take over.
Keep in mind that Bullingerism contains many oddities. The oddities just happen to align with Armstrongism in some cases. This alignment is a dubious achievement. Dart was impressed with Bullinger but Dart also had some unusual ideas. Hence, his separation from classical Armstrongism and classical Christianity.
Scout
Will the Bereans find scripture denying Jesus' one true sign He gave? You know, the sign of Jonah...the one which denounces Good Fri./Easter Sun. having enough space or time for 3 days/3 nights?
Will Bereans find reasons to change Jesus's words or signs?
6.30 am, Lonnie, I had a look at your page, and as far as I'm concerned, it's nonsense. I even had to mentally strain in order to understand your viewpoint.
Who were the guys who left HWA even before Tkach Sr. was installed? What if there were plenty of sabbath keeping leaders & elders who were brave enough to slide beyond & side step HWA if he had a record of mistreating a daughter. Those leaders also felt free to express annoyance at the loony marriage to Ramona.
Even if the angels do keep the sabbath, they would be on rotating duty alert similar to A.C. F.O.T. parking lot ushers or 7th Day Adventist or Israeli staff at a hospital emergency room or CNAs caring for our old Uncle Albert in the nursing home. Also the way snowplow road crews at D.O.T. operate on a sabbath to keep ambulance & firetruck routes open 24/7.
Make sure it's not Feast of "Booze". Simmer down on the Drambuie & the Crown Royal.
6:37, the scripture is found in Ex 12:38, "a mixed (ereb; referring to race) multitude, a mixed abundance, arose with them (Israel)..." to leave the devastated country.
It shows up in Num 11:4, too, but ereb is not in the original text.
A good question from 9:56 about the law in Deut 22:25-29. One commenter said that the first case involves rape, which is true, while the second case appears consensual. Today, in this wicked and adulterous generation, some women claim rape, even though they did the act consensually, just to get financially compensated for it, which according to the law is fornication. How does v28-29 apply to the New Covenant? In this case, the man manipulated (taphas, not tame or defile or befoul) her to do the act. It appears consensual because she does not cry out. So what do we do? Should he marry her as the law says? More on that later. If he is not a believer, the woman has to make the choice of repenting (of being seduced by him) and standing by her faith (to marry in the Lord only), or, keeping the OT law literally if she desires to keep the law. Now someone might say that it is a sin to break this law. Well, the law of Christ (repentance, obeying the Spirit, marrying in the Lord) supersedes this OT law. A believer is not forced to marry an infidel. Now, if the man is a believer, he sinned and humbled her so should he be forced to take her? As with the woman, if he is a believer he is not required but he should repent and compensate her. (If he compensates her, she may very well convert to the faith if he waits) Note that fornication should put him out of the church for a while (1 Cor 5-6), until he has repented sufficiently.
I believe this is the New Covenant way unless the Lord reveals otherwise.
As for the restaurant example, it is not a sin until you find out and continue anyway. Right, we should be conscientious about these things but food does not commend us to God, whether you eat it or not. (1 Cor 8:8) Still, we should be careful about what we put into the body since we are called to be holy, and without a high degree of holiness no one will see the Lord. (Heb 12:14) Also, your eating habits tell you a little about yourself, whether you are of the restrained and self-disciplined type or unrestrained and permissive.
Re garments of mixed fabrics and tassels, why do you bring this up when everyone knows that we are not under the OC anymore? If I believe that adultery is prohibited under the NC, am I advocating for the whole law of Moses to be kept just because I take one point from it? No! Watch what you say, because John (and James) said numerous times that we are to keep the commandments which are found in the law. Not only them but Paul, too, when he said that we establish the law (Rom 3:31), because the law of Christ and His commandments are largely found in it.
You don't know how to read Mt 5, where Christ explains and magnifies the higher intent of 5 specific laws of Moses, which you seem to think are done away? Yes, if we obsess over circumcision, tassels, fabrics, washings and offerings we become debtors to do the whole law, as Paul said, but if I disobey Deut 16:19 in the law of Moses it makes me a sinner, as per Ja 2:9. So what laws do I keep and which ones do I ignore? Is Acts 15:24 &29 an exhaustive list of prohibitions?
Lonnie,
Why do you claim the name of Christ yet call yourself a homosexual?
Do you not know what the Word says about this sin?
And why do you say you live with "the mother of your children", as though she is not your wife?
Much more is expected of you, being an Ashkenazi Jew.
Truth hurts clearly 6:36.
Thank you for the plug!
Certainly 6:37. Key scriptures regarding gentiles being in the Exodus are:
Exodus 12:37-38 "The Israelites journeyed from Ramses to Sukkoth. There were about 600,000 men on foot, beside women and children. Many other people (mixed multitude) went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds." NIV
Exodus 12:43-49 provides instructions for 'foreigners' or 'strangers' (non-Israelites) who wish to partake in the Passover, allowing them to do so if they undergo circumcision effectively joining the community of Israel.
Numbers 11:4 mentions that the 'mixed multitude' (or 'rabble' in some translations) who accompanied them were the first to complain about the food in the wilderness.
Exodus 12:33 Indicates that many Egyptians were desperate for the Israelites to leave, implying a chaotic, large scale departure that included various people.
The Exodus was not exclusively for biological Israelites, but included a "mixed multitude" of people who joined the covenant community. From American Bible Society.
Ephraim and Manasseh were half Egyptian. Sure, Israel absorbed some Gentiles. That is very different from saying a Gentile has to become a Torah observant Jew to be a real Christian. The Jerusalem Council decided that wasn't the case.
You seem just a little bit too curious, 1:07.
Anonymous March 2 @ 1:07,
Your interest in my personal circumstances is flattering, but it is irrelevant to the points made in this post. Do you have anything to offer in that connection? I claim Jesus as my Savior - the One who has redeemed me from sin and death and allows me to have direct access to the Father. I am more Western European than Jewish, although I also carry African and Native American DNA in my blood. Finally, I'm only interested in what God expects of me, but thanks for asking.
Lonnie
People are born heterosexual or homosexual. Those who are converted must make difficult choices regarding how they will practice their sexuality. Celebacy is difficult whether you are straight or gay.
Scout 739 writes,
"Revelation is the perfect context for bringing up any physical temple were such to exist. MOST (??) of Revelation is about God and Christ and their personal engagement with the world during the Millennium."
Actually, Revelation says very little about the Millennium. It acknowledges one is coming but is silent on most of the specifics. The events described in chapters 21-22, where Christ is depicted as LIGHT and the TEMPLE are clearly POST millennium.
Revelation is not a separate Bible unto itself. It is part of the entire set of revealed Scripture. It takes us through the events of the day of the Lord which climax with the return of Christ and the beginning of His messianic kingdom. From that point, specific events of His reign are few. However, consider the testimony of the Apostle Peter.
Concerning the return of Christ and specific events to follow, Peter tells us, "and He shall send Jesus Christ, whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restitution of all things". WHAT THINGS? Those things " God had spoken by ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS since the world began" (Acts 3:20-21).
If you want to know about the specifics of the post second coming millennial reign of Jesus Christ, Peter says, look to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah, and the other prophets. Multi-part man has done a fine job doing this in his thorough fashion and presentation, and I for one appreciate the effort.
The prophets do not contradict Revelation, but compliment it. They thoroughly explain how Christ and the saints will educate and convert the profane masses of this world, who know absolutely nothing about the TRUE God and HIS ways, and eventually bring them into the Kingdom of God. The only contradiction is with those who want to dismiss the importance of the prophets by by spiritualizing away their relevance and making their testimony of none effect.
Indeed, Christ has fulfilled the scriptures concern his birth and first coming, and at the close of the book of Revelation, all scripture pertaining to His second coming and millennial kingdom will have come to pass.
It always strikes me that so many from worldwide Church of God splinters are appalled when someone says anything negative about Armstrongism ON A BLOG for goodness sake. Sadly, for 40 years in wcg and splinters I heard weekly from the pulpit that we had the truth and all other so called Christians were deceived or rebellious and did not have God’s Spirit. That was a harmful lie that had far reaching effects.
Once one is at least over 40 they should know that there are likely valid reasons when a vast majority of people reject and speak against an organization or belief system (in this case, Armstrongism). It doesn’t mean one has to accept that Armstrongism is bad, but to at least acknowledge errors and harm is the wise mature response.
I would be embarrassed to be seen whining about negative comments on a blog directed toward Armstrongism. If you disagree, fine. But it displays a real smallness to whine as if you are being persecuted.
6:05, Your personal circumstances ARE relevant to the points that you made, because you can't preach truth effectively if you are living a life that is contrary to it. This also is where the COGs find themselves today, with so many ministers who are derelict of duty, cowardly, deviant, deceitful, grudge-bearing, self-indulgent and powerless, and afraid of power used against them.
Yes, one is redeemed by faith in Christ but if one continues to live in sin condemnation for those sins still hangs over your head. (Rom 8:1)
People are not born that way. They grow into it over time when they open up to the spirits of the world, taking them along with them on their journey, who afflict you with evil desire (hence the 10th command in the decalogue), deceiving you into thinking that they are your friends. (The murderer of Charlie Kirk thought he was doing it for his "trans" friend, who later would betray him to the police. Some friendship.)
If you have the H.S. and you use it, therein will be your victory, since you confess that you are on the Lord's side. And there is no greater power, spirit or authority above Him because God gave it to Him.
107,
Lonnie has said he is celibate. It is the act or continued action in the mind that is wrong. Maybe cliche, but most of us have to fight wrong desires. And, yes, I do think that homosexual desires if uncontrolled do lead to worse outcomes than many other wrong desires.
I disagree with the poster who said one is born gay, though some dispositions are more prone to developing it. Abuse is also a factor for a high percentage and there are certain family dynamics that can contribute.
Virtually every Spartan male had been subjected to pederasty and as adults they continued the evil acts. They were not all born that way; it can be groomed and perhaps it is simply society that does the grooming. But, I do not believe it is exactly hard wired as even the most manly of a population can have their proper natural development interrupted (Sparta being one example).
Anonymous 3/3 @ 9:18,
The above post is NOT about sexual orientation, but I'll allow that it does impact that question in a peripheral way. My voice on Torah, human sexuality, and a host of other issues carries weight with some folks because of the way I have chosen to live my life (according to the moral dictates of those who would oppose me). Unfortunately, we all still sin. If we (Christians) claim to be without sin, we are shown to be liars and devoid of truth. However, if we acknowledge that we are sinners and ask forgiveness, we have an advocate with the Father. Finally, if I had had a choice in the matter, I would have chosen to play for the straight team - that would have saved me a lot of grief, heartache, humiliation, and mental anguish. I am also very thankful for the help/support and comfort of God's Holy Spirit. It has helped me to be kinder, more patient, and more forgiving than I would otherwise have been. Perhaps, if Herbert Armstrong hadn't been such a narcissist and pervert, his teachings would carry more moral authority.
My misstatement on the sequence of events in Revelation that pertain to the Millennium. There is a reason why I made the statement, but it is not worth going into. To the point, you have not written anything that makes me that a physical Temple must be built during the Millennium. But instead there is good exegeted reason to believe that Jesus is the Temple in this Age and the next. The fact is, in the NT era, the Second Temple was destroyed and never replaced by a Third Temple. There is a message in that about both the Tempe liturgy and the Old Covenant.
The belief that there will be another Temple other than Jesus with the re-implementation of the Old Testamant is not just a hobby interest. It can lead to heresy of the sort that HWA developed. It can lead to the rejection of Pauline theology.
Scout
Scout 642
The scenario I presented based on the inspired words of the Apostle Peter in Acts 3 can lead to the rejection of Pauline theology? Not so!
Pauline theology pertains only to the church of God. The calling out and selection of the ecclesia is a special unique dispensation, much different from the way God delt with the children of Israel and how He will deal with the heathen in the messianic age. I could give a multi-part man write up on this but nobody wants that. Maybe in the future. Besides, I think most already know this.
10:08 I agree. Often, it’s the environment that shapes young, impressionable minds—more than genetics. I remember watching the Netflix series about the Menendez brothers, which portrayed their father as a pederast who, if I recall correctly, was into Spartan culture and the sinful homosexual relationships that was widely accepted in that ancient society.
You people who do not believe that humans are born straight or gay need to read up on ovotesticular syndrome. Or the statistics involving humans born with nebulous gender identification, in which doctors make their best guess and operate in a manner to assign gender. If God allows people to be born wih those conditions, conditions which they would also have to fight and endure ridicule for all their lives, then He certainly allows people to be born gay. Obviously there are additional known pathways such as pedastry, grooming, and seduction, but those who insist that they were born with that orientation are telling the truth. It was not too long ago that the majority of heterosexuals did not make the distinction between homosexuals and pedophiles. They were assumed to be one and the same.
Here are my thoughts as a Christian who values truth from both science and Scripture:
1. Ovotesticular syndrome and similar intersex conditions are extremely rare—broad intersex traits occur in about 1.7% of births, but truly ambiguous cases needing intervention are around 0.02% (1 in 4,500). These are real biological challenges God allows in a fallen world, but they don't equate to the far more common claims of being "born gay."
2. I agree doctors shouldn't pressure parents to surgically "assign" sex in such rare cases—the child should have a say when mature enough, aligning with their biology and preferences. (BTW, I'm also against modern routine circumcision and was opposed to mandated vaccines.) This honors the image of God in each person, without denying reality.
3. Many researchers affirm sexual orientation arises from a mix of biology, environment and experience—not a simple "born that way" genetic switch. This doesn't invalidate anyone's feelings but cautions against oversimplifying to genetics alone. For example, a friend of mine recalls his first same-sex attractions at around age 5 watching a male newsreader on TV—he didn't understand it then. Between ages 5-8, he had a few hetero and homo experiences with peers, but two prominent ones—a female encounter followed by a male one—shaped his struggles. Now he views most SSA as tied to feelings of inadequacy around "better" guys (bigger, stronger, sexier, etc.). By rejecting such comparisons and embracing his worth in Christ, those feelings often fade—no longer imposing the twisted perception of a sexual lens on those guys.
4. Scripture teaches we're all born sinners (Psalm 51:5; Rom. 3:23), prone in this fallen world toward sin—whether idolatry, blasphemy, rebellion, murder, kidnapping, prostitution, adultery, homosexuality, incest, bestiality, pedophilia, lying, theft, usury, fraud, covetousness, etc. Yet the gospel offers the hope of transformation for all (Eph. 2:1-10): in Jesus we might not be cured—yet—but we are called to repent, trust, and grow in Him who redeems our broken desires to His glory (2 Cor. 12:9).
Change the topic, and you don't have to address the points made in the post. Let's not talk about the price of gas - look at how tuff I'm being on the Iranians.
BP8
I do not believe in dispensationalism. Especially, the hyper-dispensationalism of Bullinger. Pauline theology says that the wall between Jews and Gentiles has been removed. Dispensationalists believe it is still there by sorting Jews and Gentiles into two different dispensations. That dog won't hunt.
Scout
Matthew 5: 16-20 still is not explained by those who reject it not matter how many different explanations given. The fact that there are so many different interpretations of that and other scripture points to the fact that those summations are not correct. Those who hold to them will find out someday that their reasons (i.e. excuses) for not observing Matthew 5 are not acceptable.
Very possibly, nobody will be there standing by the Messiah getting kicks out of the correction being administered to those people because even those considered righteous may be going over the corrections they have received.
Herbie and the herbsters will be held accountable, but those who left that and jumped on another bandwagon, big or small, will at some point be receiving the stripes because blaming others for not understanding and/ or following truth to defend the self is not a viable, justifiable defense.
Scout
The dog that won't hunt is believing God deals with individuals (the Church, both Jew and Gentile) in the same manner He (has in the past and will in the future) deals with nations (a collective). Most theologians recognize this difference, although some, like Bullinger have taken it to the extreme.
The sabbath is not as much of a burden as you think it is, 8:42:00.
And blabbing your long babel about New Covenant is not as user friendly as you think it is.
Many loved ones in Iran are glad their topic is more valid for today than your worn out one is of bashing "Armstrongism".
Look at how friendly HWA's great grandson Michael is at ICG. His wife plays piano wonderfully, people love them. He does not wreak any of the havoc y'all cite his grandpappy HWA for doing back in the day.
Many new modern sabbath keepers are not causing the trouble HWA did. We can get over it by now. The topic is changed in hope you can relax & not fuss. And, so that you can remember to keep an eye on the E.U. eventually.
I've seen a totally different set of stats. You get yours from the Evangelicals?
Lonnie,
Earlier above, you excoriated HWA again for being such a "narcissist and pervert" (doubting his conversion and believing the allegations against him, while calling yourself a redeemed one), and that if it hadn't been for that, "his teachings would have carried more moral authority". I detect a spirit of bitterness here. You don't know that Christ had him teach the truth for over 50 years, that many watched the WT and read the PT, and that attendance reached 140,000 until the apostasy set in? (to which you give assent if you disparage the law) His teachings did carry high moral authority from the Lord and led to many conversions (to which you have attested). Even after the trials and turmoil of the 70s, after all the allegations that he faced, he survived it until '86 when the church was still flourishing. If it was a work of men (which it began to be under the JWT's watch '93-'95), it would have come to nothing.
8:20 says that pederasty was "widely accepted" in Sparta. Not true according to AI, which says that the relations were a kind of mentorship program for the children of elites, but which became perverted over time by the wicked ones.
9:33 makes a false inductive inference when he says that, since some are born with the ovotesticular condition, then God can "certainly allow people to be born gay". Not a sound conclusion. That very rare condition is another example of the curses that come on us for Adam's sin, when a seed is able to mutate into something that is contrary to nature, which quickly decays in a womb. (1 Cor 15) As for the spirit, it is created pure without any defilement until it comes out and is shaped by its environment.
The intimation that evil desire is conceived from a very young age is debatable (like the abduction cases). The thoughts may be there but the nature isn't perverted until the age of reason (when right or wrong judgments begin to form), yet sexual abuse can be very traumatic from a very young age when it is compounded by parental abuse and neglect together with depraved peer influences. If your parents and friends are cursed and wicked for the most part, IT WILL RUB OFF ON YOU. The victims become the victimizers, which is how the devil's rule played out on the earth with the fallen angels.
"Born a sinner"? I don't believe Ps 51:5 teaches that. "Into the sin, the crime, the penalty did she conceive me", suggests that the law of sin (the carnal drive), as spoken of by Paul in Rom 7:23, would pass into the body. Born with the ability to sin but not born with sin.
Finally, in the same post one states that "in Jesus we might not be cured"? What kind of half-hatched idea is that? You don't know how to read 1 Cor 6? Whether you are an abuser, homosexual, fornicator, idolater, drunkard or insulter (railer), you become washed, sanctified and justified in the Lord when you confess and turn away from your sins. This is the gospel. From then, on the washing and sanctifying continues if you keep putting away those evil desires, the leaven that puffs one up. If your faith is weak, it may take several years. If you break the commandments and sin often when the devil tempts you, you will live with difficulty and not pass the grade. But you are under no condemnation if you are primarily walking after the Spirit (Rom 7:1), which means you are following Christ (which entails obedience) and carrying your cross (which means you are willingly suffering for righteousness) and denying yourself (saying no to sinful desires and feelings).
Oh, my! Aren't you the naive one. What you have written is all based on the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, and not on what people have actually written about their own experiences, related in psychiatric counselling sessions, or under hypnosis. You paint over reality based upon what should be according to HWA. There was a time when people who fancied themselves as being Godly believed all manner of things about those who had been born left-handed.
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