Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Most of us here experienced the great upheaval that hit the Worldwide Church of God in the 1990s with its rejection of certain extra-biblical teachings and doctrines of Herbert W Armstrong. Regardless of where your sympathies were on either side of these changes, they were traumatic and not well thought out when they are announced. It was assumed by many in leadership positions that the majority of the church members would blindly follow along because they had had "church government" shoved down their throats for decades and would not rebel en mass as so many did.
Most of us watched as various men who always thought themselves far more enlightened than regular members beat their chests in self-righteous indignation and claimed they were taking up the mantle of truth the WCG was rejecting to preserve the truth once delivered. Each one was always more deserving of followers than the previous chest thumper.
One of the most prominent groups to break off during this time was those that started the United Church of God. What was most galling about this event is that far too many of the ministers leading up to the changes and for a while afterward, while still on WCG payroll, pretended to follow and enforce WCG edicts as changes were slowly happening. These same men kicked out lots of members for disagreeing with the various changes while they themselves were having questions about the changes. A divide in loyalties was quickly happening in Pasadena and within the ministry. In Pasadena many of these men soon started to gather on and off campus in various ministers' homes to plan how they could take as many members, mailing lists, church inventory, and as much money as they could to start a new splinter group.
Most of these men had never worked a full day of manual labor outside the privileged lifestyle of a paid dark-suited church employee and were fearful of now having to get real jobs to provide for their families to live on during the transition they were planning. Gone would be the ministerial perks of $5,000 Feast allocations and tax deductions they were so privileged to partake of over the previous decades. Life was going to be tough for these guys and they knew it. But, with good planning and locations to start gathering tithe money of unhappy WCG members, they knew they could raise the money they needed to transfer over from one paid job to another keeping their important lifestyle intact.
For far too many of these men who started splinter groups, it was not so much really about preserving doctrine but a means of preserving income. Church teachings and doctrines came second.
Scores of books, articles, and video programs were made by men on both sides of the issue justifying their stances on why the changes were made and why those that started new groups had the right to do so. Most members read and watched these men while many times rolling their eyes at the stuff they were hearing, yet switched groups over and over till they found a group that satisfied their perceived needs.
This brings us to today as we have Victor Kubik telling his version of that story. Like far too many other COG men who authored stories, it comes across as self-righteous justification or martyrdom for the truth as they saw it.
Kubik currently has three editions of his version of the United Church of God story up to read. He started his series in mid-May 2023.
I am curious as to what those that read here think about his version.
Trying to get out from under the weight of history
Lonnie Hendrix
As part of the comment thread for a post that appeared here, Trooisto asked CGI’s Jeff Reed: “How does your church reconcile the failed prophecies, proclaimed to be uttered under the authority of God, by your church’s founding fathers, HWA and GTA? How does all the written and recorded evidence of false prophecies of your leaders impact the legitimacy of your church and your claim to have a ‘correct set of beliefs’?” Trooisto went on to note: “CGI also copied the extra-biblical doctrines of British Israelism from HWA and much of the same failed prophesies of impending, in the next few years, catastrophes to fall upon ‘Israelitish nations’. You can claim to have a historical foundation in Jesus, but Jesus never identified certain European nations as being lost tribes of Israel and Jesus never mentioned the United States. So, an honest admission should be given that at least part of your church’s theology came from HWA, as also preached by GTA prior to the inception of CGI and for the first twenty years of CGI’s history. Anything short of that acknowledgment is a dishonest whitewash of CGI history.”
For me, these observations underscored a problem that ALL of the Armstrong Churches of God must confront: “How does one handle all of that sordid history regarding their origins?” And, to be clear, I’m not talking about the Seventh Day Baptists, the founding of the Adventist Movement, or the history of the two Churches of God, Seventh Day. No, I’m talking about the history that begins with Herbert Armstrong. How does one deal with: The events surrounding Armstrong’s separation from the COG, 7th Day? Armstrong’s plagiarism and borrowing from other traditions/organizations? The problems with Armstrong’s character? The large volume of writings that were generated over fifty years (including failed predictions and changes in doctrine)? The teachings of Herbert Armstrong which have been thoroughly discredited and/or effectively challenged (e.g. Anglo-Israelism, Headline Theology, the warning message for Israel, tithing, the nature of the message about the Kingdom of God, Church government, etc.)? The behavior of Garner Ted Armstrong, and the impact of his (and others’) efforts to systematize Herbert’s teachings? What happened with the Tkach regime? The numerous splits/schisms which have happened over the years before and after Herbert Armstrong’s death? These are all part of that great weight of history that confronts ALL of the Armstrong Churches of God!
Hence, the question: How does one deal with all of this sordid history? Well, so far, the ACOG’s have dealt with their history in the same way(s) that most people, organizations, and nations have dealt with unpleasant episodes in their history. In brief, humans have a tendency to deal with past embarrassments by: 1) Ignoring them/pretending they didn’t happen, 2) Trying to change/modify the narrative and put a more positive spin on what happened, 3) Confronting the unpleasantness, and trying to deal with it. Moreover, if any attempt is made to confront the past, people usually try to emphasize the changes they’ve instituted and/or the measures which they have taken to address past injustices. Needless to say, remedy number three requires the most soul-searching and work and has, consequently, been the least popular way of dealing with all of the unpleasantness in our collective past. And, as we look at the Armstrong Churches of God, we see that most of them have simply ignored that past or attempted to change the narrative – neither of which has worked very well for them in the age of the internet.
David C. Pack of The Restored Church of God brought a faux mind-blowing concept to light when he explained during “The Greatest Unending Story! (Part 461)” on July 29, 2023, that The Last Days had already begun.
That's right. We have been in the prophesied Last Days since 2015, and nobody knew it. Not even David C. Pack. Just as the fickle 1335 of Daniel has an annoying habit of starting and stopping without notice, we are almost eight years into The Last Days and had no idea.
Just to keep it simple, Jesus Christ will return on the Opening Night of the Feast of Tabernacles in 2023. That is at “the split-second” of sunset on September 29. In Wadsworth, Ohio, sunset will be 7:12pm ET.
The Last Days began during the Feast of Tabernacles in 2015 because Dave whatever. The Last Days are sixteen years long because Dave says so. And because pigs sprout wings and glide across the sky, it points to the Feast of Tabernacles of 2023 as the dead-bang middle.
Exercise your faith, brethren. Book a one-way ticket this fall.
Part 461 – July 29, 2023
@ 16:23 I finally had to acknowledge because I was learning some very powerful things. That the Last Days are the Last Years, and there are eight of them.There are eight years of Last Days and Last Years. In effect, the Millennium is when the Last Days are over.
@ 23:48I believe I can tell you exactly the day the Last Years the Last Days began, and it's been some years now. But, I believe I can absolutely prove to you exactly when they began before the Eight Years continued them to the Millennium.
To Dave, revealing when the Last Days began gave him the key to the "midst of the years," which marked X on the calendar as to when the Kingdom of God arrives. There is a logic at play. Psych ward logic.
Dave occasionally says things during these messages that might as well have a light and buzzer attached. Some words leap out at me, and my gut reaction is later validated. This was one of them.
@ 28:39 Now, as I lay out this absolutely stunning proof to you, I’m gonnaI’m not gonna tell you. I’m not gonna tell you when the Kingdom comes.
Bzzzzz.
When I heard that, I knew Dave would not be able to resist over-explaining his prophetic Rorschach drawing. He has OCD when it comes to forcing his temporary certainty onto the brethren, like when he asks questions and projects the answers they have in their heads because that is what he wants to hear.
Later, Dave reinforced my instincts:
@ 44:11 In light of what we just heard about the end of the year, when do you think God’s feet touch down? I’ll tell you. The split-second the Feast of Tabernacles begins.
Bzzzzz.
A rule of thumb that is the safest position to take is to understand that David C. Pack will do and say the opposite of what he says he will.
@28:47 I’m not gonna tell you when the Kingdom comes.
Oh yeah?
@ 1:00:58 You could almost, if you knew nothing else, just fold it up. Let’s go home. And you could almost say, “Wow, it’s this Feast of Tabernacles.”
Technically, if the Kingdom God arrives at sunset on the Opening Night of the Feast of Tabernacles, brethren do not even need to travel to a Feast site since Jesus Christ will return at the exact moment the Feast begins. There is no commanded assembly at sunset on the first night. That is only a church tradition. Recheck your Bible. It is not there. The brethren in The Restored Church of God can truly express their noble faith by choosing to not make ANY travel plans for this year. They would still be obeying God the moment the “midst of the years” triggers everything.
You and I know David C. Pack will not sit on this teaching for the next 55 days. In fact, I suspect Part 462 will bring "additional clarity" to the situation because the window is too wide for those on the fence to bail from RCG and still have time to make alternate FOT travel plans with another organization.
@ 1:05:37 Anybody, anybody doubt when this would be? Anybody doubt when the Kingdom comes?
The members of The Restored Church of God should have nothing but doubt. It is healthy and wise to doubt the doctrines of David C. Pack.
Flashback Part 189 – June 26, 2019
@ 1:02:12 The Days of the Son of Man are the days before the Son of Man comes. So, lemme just tell you: we’re in the Days of the Son of Man. I wanna remove all doubt.
Flashback Part 197 – August 7, 2019
@ 32:08 Only recently did I finally come to truly truly truly understand blow by blow exactly what is happening in this chapter [Zechariah 11] and when. What and when sequentially. Exactly.And you won’t doubt it either.
Flashback Part 297 – March 17, 2021
@ 13:37 I’m gonna throw some knock-out punches here that removes all doubt about Christ arriving on Passover.
Flashback Part 403 – November 5, 2022
@ 01:51 Now, more than ever, I can tell you this: Salvation will come in November 2022. See if you doubt that when we’re done.
Flashback Part 413 – January 4, 2023
@ 1:17:08 If these guys die in the next three days, we’ve removed all doubt.And God would know this, and I can't tell because it's so cryptic. If they die in the next three days, nobody will doubt that Christ is coming.
Flashback Part 415 – January 17, 2023
@ 31:47 I said on Sabbath we’re not waiting 27 days…And you won’t have any doubt of that after the first point, and I'm gonna give you probably about 50 or 60…
Flashback Part 435 – April 15, 2023
@ 00:04 Good evening. Here we are…We're still just fine. You will (perhaps) more than ever before, not doubt that after tonight.
Flashback Part 436 – April 20, 2023
@ 00:02 This will be the single most important sermon I’ve ever given. You won’t doubt it. Or, if I lived twenty more years and we had to wait twenty more years that I ever could give.
Flashback Part 440 – May 5, 2023
@ 55:24 [Part] 440'd be the end of the line as far as the Series. But nobody would have any doubt that this is right.
If you are a member of The Restored Church of God and have doubts, that is not the devil putting evil thoughts in your head. Use the discernment God gave you to know what you can know and see what you can see. David C. Pack is a biblical fraud, a false apostle, a false teacher, and a false prophet.
Observations of reality are not accusations.
More Dark Dave came bubbling to the surface.
Part 461 – July 29, 2023
@ 29:04 You will absolutely know and know that you know. And nobody with a machine gun to your head could convince you it's other than what I'm gonna show you. All questions are gonna be dead and buried long before we get through this list.
His inexplicable obsession with graphic violence comes out at random moments. There must not be a more "Christian" way to communicate the same idea.
David C. Pack suffers from conflicting thoughts firing through his brain at the same time. He interrupts himself to insert an aside and returns to his original idea. His speaking flow is erratic, confusing, and unstable. This is not the communication style of a sound mind.
One of the side effects of his disjointed thinking is that he sidetracks himself so much that he winds up saying the opposite of what he intended.
@ 1:07:04 I’ll bet there’s not a person in here(I’m still nowhere near done) not a person in here who could begin to believe that the Kingdom of God (in every year that ever happens for the rest of eternity) to start a year (we’ve seen over and over and over) will be the Feast of Tabernacles. And you know why? Because that’s the kinda God we serve.
Dave disrupted himself with unnecessary fluff and forgot how he started his point. He winds up saying the opposite of what he intended. His overly-confident lean-back was perfectly timed right after botching his statement.
He meant to say, “I’ll bet there’s not a person in here who could begin to believe that the Kingdom of God does NOT start a year on the Feast of Tabernacles.”
Speaking with double negatives is tricky business, and Dave should leave that to the seasoned professionals. He forgot the second negative, which would algebraically make it positive. Instead, he said, “Not a person in here could begin to believe the Kingdom of God starts a year on the Feast of Tabernacles.”
God has a sense of humor and is a fan of irony. In an interesting twist, Dave’s mocking comments and misspeaks wind up being accurate, while his intentional doctrines are proven false. That will be the case here. Wait for the inevitable abandonment of this theory or the egg timer proving David C. Pack a biblical fraud.
Brethren still have time to bail from RCG, join another group, and still get to the Feast of Tabernacles. If you remain, by the time the Opening Night song leader tells everyone to rise and pick up their hymnals, you will know seven days of spin are on the agenda, and it will be another FOT DOA.
Thousands of troops is a far cry from millions of troops.
It’s the same old song, but with a different feeling since Herbert has been gone.
Why are
Satan and Germany
always hiding under the beds
of Church of God leaders?
Why continue to live in a constant state of fear?
hat tip to a reader here as the source
Ever since Herbert Armstrong declared that Hitler was still alive and living in South America, the focus of the Church of God movement has been upon Germany. The more villainous the church could make Germany, the better. From concentration camps built all around the country to crematoriums filled with Laodiceans and non-members, with adjoining rooms filled with meathooks where the Germans would hang those they wanted to torture. The youth of the country would be taken to Germany and auctioned off around Europe as slaves to their new masters.
Hardly a week went by without a sermon or magazine article talking about Germany. The church talked about Germany as much as they did Satan.
In spite of the endless stream of prophetic failures by Herbert Armstrong, today's COGs try as hard as they can to carry on that mantle. None does it better than the Living Church of God.
Concern in Europe over the invasion of Ukraine, potential problems in Poland, Belarus, Georgia and Estonia with Russia, Europe is rightfully concerned about their nations sovereignty. Of course, this plays right into the hands of COG mythology that this is a sure sign that the phoenix of Germany will soon arise and take over the world as they prepare to march upon Jerusalem for an epic showdown in the Valley of Armageddon (after they torture, kill, and enslave Americans in concentration camps, of course).
Living Church of God had a post about this in 2022 and here we are a year later and they still are searching for what they see as confirmation of their incessant proof-texting.
We are getting close to Feast time and Satan's wrath is getting stirred up.
From a reader:
COGWA already is having Feast trouble again.
After last year's hurricane wipeout of Fort Myers (which left President Franks stuck at the airport throughout the first Holy Day, trying to get to the Bahamas), a severe thunderstorm this past week ripped a hole in the roof of COGWA's planned theater in Branson.
So COGWA is scrambling again - at least this time with about eight weeks to find an alternative.
But this stuff keeps happening to COGWA Feast sites - going all the way back to when a Feast was cut short by Legionnaire's Disease.
_____________________
Storm damages the roof of Yakov Smirnoff’s theatre in Branson, Mo.
BRANSON, Mo. (KY3) - The storms early Monday morning damaged the roof of the Yakov Smirnoff Theatre in Branson.
The storm damaged the roof, flooding part of the auditorium. Smirnoff says the entire theatre will likely need to be gutted. The repairs will close the theatre through the rest of the year.
Smirnoff added a silver lining to the damage.
“If I go, okay, it is not comfortable, it’s sad, it’s all those things, but I know the sun will shine through,” said Smirnoff. “Right now, the sun is shining through the ceiling, but eventually, it will shine through, and it will be a beautiful opportunity to clean things up and make it new again.”
The Duttons family has offered Smirnoff to use their theatre as he rebuilds.
I realize that there are many twists and turns to the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) story, but it is sobering to me that so many COG members in the offshoots (e.g., UCG, LCG, COGWA) know so little about the actual history of the WCG.
Perhaps a stellar example of this is the appalling ignorance of Herbert Armstrong’s (HWA) often histrionic behavior and failed prophetic utterances. Some claim that all HWA did was speculate about the future, but that is not true according to HWA himself. HWA in his radio broadcast apparently linked his prophetic interpretations and utterances to the standard in Deuteronomy 18.
Deuteronomy 18:18-22 New International Version
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?”22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The most readily accessible example of this reckless behavior can be found in David Barrett’s excellent study of the collapse of WCG: “The Fragmentation of a Sect”. Barrett cites the late Richard Nickels a well-known researcher and COG historian. Nickels concluded that HWA labeled himself a false prophet based on this direct quote from an early World Tomorrow radio broadcast:
“A terrible famine is coming on the United States, that is going to ruin us as a nation inside of less than twenty years. Alright, I stuck my neck out there. You just wait twenty years and see whether I told you the truth. God says, if a man tells you what’s going to happen, wait and see. If it doesn’t happen, he was not speaking the word of God, he’s speaking out of his own mind. If it happens, you’ll know God sent him.”
HWA clearly spoke out his own grandiose self-delusions and not for God resulting in incredible harm to those who trusted him. There are still many ignorant people even now in the COG, and it is time to share the above documentation with them – graciously -- especially the young members of UCG, LCG and COGWA.
Instead of front-loading “The Greatest Unending Story! (Part 461)” on July 29, 2023, with the bad news, David C. Pack of The Restored Church of God opted to save it for the last five minutes. There was probably a secret hope that most of the congregation would have already mentally checked out by then and that the members in the field who still bothered to listen stopped halfway through.
The Restored Church of God is in financial straits as David C. Pack piecemeals information to the brethren. He has said nothing in any of his messages to the church about WHY they need cuts, but that financial changes are necessary "IF time went on.”
Oh, Dave. Time is going to Energizer Bunny all up in your biz-natch.
It has been several weeks since Dave last sang his lamentations to the membership. Back in June, six Headquarters employees received their pink slips, including Mrs. Pack. Dr. Tim Ranney (PR No Mo) and Ken Orel (The Chicago Heavy) received the added bonus of being wished away into the cornfield.
Flashback Part 451, Part 2 – June 14, 2023
@ 06:15 So, we reached a point where we realizedwe're gonna send some people to the field…we're doing everything we can to cut costs.
@ 10:16 But anybody who has Common out there, we want to hit it.
@ 10:42 But I would just ask…all of you listening…Can you do more? Sell all…this is a great time to be thinking about that.
“Think about that” is all the brethren did. It seems the Common money did not materialize. Keep holding out, folks. There will come a day when you will be extremely thankful you did.
If you thought making six people redundant would be enough to secure the ship, then you would be wrong. Apparently, The Restored Church of God needs to trim even more fat at Headquarters. The situation is becoming a little "too real," especially since the Kingdom of God cannot possibly arrive until the Opening Night of The Feast of Tabernacles. That is way, way out on September 29 at sunset.
To the All-Believing Zealots and Headquarters Fakers: Book only a one-way flight to the Feast this year as a show of faith. And only pack one change of clothes since the first song on Opening Night will not be sung. You do not even need a toothbrush. Please show David C. Pack just how much you trust what he says. Walk in faith. As he has said, just having hope is not enough.
Part 461 – July 29, 2023
@ 1:34:23 …one of the problems is, we’ve got two months to go. What is that? Conditions will worsen. The implications of how God uses the next two months are great. Just trust me on that. I may have big decisions to make, or they may be made for me.
@ 1:38:00 But, I still wondered, you know, if that's what God wanted to do, then we were gonna be ready to do it.
Dave’s god wants to use the next two months but is unwilling to provide the cash windfall to make it happen? Perhaps Dave’s god slumbers or is on a far journey and cannot wire the adequate funds.
We all know David C. Pack does not believe his own doctrines, and his promises could not be more worthless. If this new date was sure, he could easily empty the reserves and do whatever. He knows he will walk all this back, just like we do.
Talk of cuts is a faithless act on his part. He does not trust his own god to provide. Instead of waiting for the ravens to bring bread and flesh each day, he has to roll up his sleeves and do it himself. His human steam is a shining example of righteous virtue.
@ 1:38:06 We were not gonna continue as we are. So, I began to make major cuts. I announced, for instance (and believe it, this is just the first one), but I think the cuts start with me, so I already had in mind long before I knew this,my wife was gonna step aside, and I'm gonna give up her salary. But I’ma take a ten percent cut. I was planning to stay here for the Feast. Mr. Schleifer knows this. I wasn't gonna travel. The price of renting an airplane is an abomination, and I won’t do it again.
Flying commercial is just ridiculous, out of the question, and not even worthy of discussion.
@ 1:38:36 I'll just stay here, and I'll leave half of my Second Tithe just stay in the General Fund. Which is what happens at the end of every year.
Giving your “excess Second Tithe" back to the church is not biblical. That is a Herbert W. Armstrong manufactured tradition with no scriptural basis. It is just another way the church guilts brethren out of more money. Do yourself a favor. Study the Bible before you do that.
Dave breezed past a tiny detail, but it is worthy of your attention. One crucial word caught my attention. Half.
@1:38:42 And I’ll give up half my secretary.
Whoa. Whoa. That is NOT what he said during the Ministerial Conference when he was willing to bleed alongside everyone else. Dave informed Ed Winkfield (Stepford Prime) that since he was firing one of Ed’s staff, Dave’s personal handmaiden would be gifted to him in exchange. Now only half-gifted.
Flashback Part 451, Part 2 – June 14, 2023
@ 08:56 So, I'm gonna just make a sacrifice…I'm gonna give up my secretary…she's gonna work for Mr. Winkfield.
@ 09:10 So, I'm gonna have to function without a secretary.
Dave shuddered at the idea of pouring his own coffee. The thought of being responsible for bringing the right glasses down the Main Hall for a message sent a chill up his spine. When times are tough, David C. Pack is willing to half-sacrifice.
For all who feel obligated to donate extra funds, follow the example of your Pastor General, David C. Pack. Give him half of what you planned.
But seriously, for the love of Pete…do not give them anything!
Dave likes to inject inappropriate humor while delivering unpleasant news to the local congregation. He has no consideration for those in the audience who may feel distressed learning that more vague cuts are coming to Headquarters. They do not know if that means layoffs or an across-the-board salary percentage cut.
What a fantastic way to top off another restful Sabbath at Headquarters. Employees enjoy going home, setting down their briefcases, and taking off their ties, wondering what financial woes shall befall them. Dave is long on drama and short on details.
Part 461 – July 29, 2023
@ 1:38:44 And then I realized if I do that, I been preachin', and then I could look at the other ministers and start meddlin’. [Laughs]'Cause that's preachin’. Long as I’m makin’ the cuts.But, after that, it’s time to meddle. And [laughs] have fun. There's some men nervously laughing right now out there. [Laughs] So hoping the Kingdom comes.
Ha ha ha. Some are nervous right now because they might lose their jobs. Ha ha ha.
Wow. How creepy is that?
The callous attitude and snarky delivery again expose David C. Pack as to what kind of man he is. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And his mouth speaks A-Lot.
@ 1:39:09 I know how to motivate our ministers to get them to want the Feast.
He might as well say, “Mr. Armstrong chastised you with whips, but I shall chastise you with scorpions.” Yes, fear is a potent motivator, Dave. You have grown quite good at it.
Having outgoing love and concern is for the unordained. Letting your light shine is a nice idea, but it does not pay the rent. Choosing mercy over judgment is intended for those not in any real position to wield it. By their fruits, you shall know them, brethren. Pay attention to his fruits.
@ 1:39:13 But, there’d be other cuts. More much streamlining. Cuts of various kinds. Fairly dramatic, and it would put us in a powerful position IF God did not add (we'll call it) an accelerant.
The "good night" thirty seconds later, without giving any clue as to what will happen or why, is just more spit in the eyes of the brethren of The Restored Church of Another god.
Hey, Brad. Is Dave going to streamline the horses or put a moratorium on new trees? Inquiring minds want to know.
Those ringing the bell signaling the financial demise of RCG need a reality check. They have millions of dollars tied into real estate around the Campus. An accurate indicator of dire economic circumstances will be when houses start popping up on Zillow. It will come. It is only a matter of when.
I hope these fairly dramatic cuts affect things more than they do people. But I doubt it.
This is not a sign of the end for RCG, folks. It IS another step down that slope.
