What about the Truth said:
SHT, you have missed the big point that answers your question. I think you were as many others were, children of parents that came into the WCG. The majority of this group could never completely embrace what their parents believed and it was to no fault of their own that they were not exactly like their parents. The big dynamic that you have missed is the calling from God. The same calling that pushed, pulled and in some cases dragged themselves into something they had no real desire to get into and went against their sound reasoning of I have better things to do in life.
First, you are correct - I am from a lineage in the Church that started with a baptism tour by McNair/Meredith - a long, long ways back. I do have to address your statement of "The Calling from God" - a "Calling" that pushed, or pulled, or dragged people into the Worldwide Church of God. This in itself is a whole article and research to get into at another time, and one I intend to get into, but that's for a different time to break that down. The big questions have to be:
A) How are we certain that that "calling" is actually from God? Could there be an alternative explanation?
B) What evidence is there that such actions would be God-ordained?
These are the primary questions at the root of your argument as to the large point to the major question here. We have to deduce and determine, factually, that the actual reason why people were "pushed, pulled or dragged" into the Church was because God determined it was to be so. This must be done using fact, evidence, historical truths, and personal reasons for each individual case.
This calling or strong urge then led to accepting the reality that the wages that they had earned from sinning was death. This now led to the accepting that a perfect son was sacrificed for us and with the act of baptism and the acknowledgment that now having Christ indwelling in a person, you could not now expose Jesus Christ to sin. So the Sabbath, which the COG calls the test commandment and is of the 1st five commandments that relate to the worship of the Father becomes a desire to be kept because it was made holy and God says He wants that person to convocate with him and like minded people. The same applies to the Holy Days. These acts of keeping the Sabbath or Holy Days are physical acts expressing what Jesus Christ called the greatest commandment - to love the Lord thy God with your whole heart soul and mind. Many of the people that remain in the COGs count it a blessing to have to keep 1 day in seven and 7-14 other days with God and with those begotten of God because they get to start doing now what they hope will be in earnest in the near future - the return of Christ and the eventuality of eternally dwelling with God.This is the bubble within what you call Armstrongism and is the bubble that has perplexed you personally. You have asked how could God call people into such an error filled organization or how could their be true Christians in the COGs. I don't have a direct answer to those questions but it could be that god wants to show the world that a small group of people in the midst of much error and evil can acknowledge love and worship him when most on the outside say it is impossible.
You state first that
A) The wages that they had earned from sinning was death. No argument on your point. I think that that is something that all people who claim a belief in Jesus Christ believe. This isn't at first a major differentiator.
B) You state that there is an acceptance that Jesus Christ died for us and with the act of baptism we could not now "expose Jesus Christ to sin". Let me stop here. Scripture says Jesus Christ became sin for us, in our place. There's a big difference between "exposing Christ to sin" - we all our sinners, only saved by grace - and Christ becoming sin for us and dying for us in our place so we can then be reconciled to God through his death and life. Therefore, this statement you make about "exposing Jesus Christ to sin" is redundant, because Christ has already become sin for us.
C) You state that this desire to "keep the Sabbath and Holy Days" is the main thrust of holiness, physical acts of expressing what Jesus Christ calls the greatest commandment, to love the Lord. Here's the problem. When the focus becomes physical acts to show love to God, the actual spiritual acts that constitute daily life and living in the Spirit of God become secondary and less important. Historical and present truth shows this to be the case. The emphasis of Armstrongism must be spiritual first, not physical - whereas Armstrongism reverses this and makes it physical first, then spiritual. The heart might be in the right place, but the batteries have been put in backwards.
D) It may be true that the Sabbath rest familiar to the COG's of one day off may constitute a blessing to many. Many Christians also enjoy the Rest of God by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit all the time. I'm not blemishing your belief and your understanding of the seventh-day Sabbath. I am pointing out a difference of opinion that has happened since the conception of the Church, a difference starkly polarizing now as it once was between Jew and Gentile. As Paul said, it is a matter of preference. You are stating here, that the main people in the COG Sphere of Armstrongism have sided with the Jewish side of the argument, and have lost favor of the Gentile persuasion of the argument. You may have a solid point here, but it must be verified as to if the calling was actually from God, or if the "calling" was simply a siding of agreement with Paul, or agreement with the more Jewish-centered Christians in the whole argument of question.
E) I'm not doubting there are true Christians in the COG's. Christians are people, not any corporate Church. God meets people where they are, and works with people personally. I don't believe I've ever stated I don't believe Christians are in Armstrongism. I do, however, fully believe Armstrongism as a whole is NOT Christian as a denomination or organization - though again, I believe there are Christians who go to ACOG Churches that do have the Holy Spirit.
These called out ones understand when they read Paul who tells them to see their calling or make their calling and election sure. Unfortunately these same people equate their calling to the entity they were called to and can't see right now where the truth has been mangled and trampled.
Selective reading of Paul is pretty common in the COG's. It's looked through a filter, a lens, that is only read through the delivered message of Herbert Armstrong. The entire context of Paul's writings in the NT constitute a clear picture of what is required to make a calling and election sure. Armstrongism dilutes this message completely.
Although these people are in a bubble it is still permeable to the appalling conduct of their leaders which is most unfortunate. Most of these people are not going to leave until something big happens. Hopefully that big thing is what they are waiting for - God in their very midst.
Here is the big dilemma. Where is God in the appalling (that's putting it mildly) conduct of their leaders? We even have illegitimate pastors out there who have not even been ordained trying to run a sect! Every type of atrocity is out there in Armstrong Churches of God way out in the open. When one focuses on Jesus, totally and with pure focus, then God will be within them and work through them and make change from the inside out.
submitted by SHT
46 comments:
After SHT pointed out we were the victims of a highly successful marketing program, I have more aware of when I am really in a marketing program and I have found it is a common tactic for business in general.
Being more aware is best for your overall well-being.
" A) How are we certain that that "calling" is actually from God? Could there be an alternative explanation?
B) What evidence is there that such actions would be God-ordained? "
you are using human reasoning, which dooms you to failure...trying to explain the calling to someone not called is like trying to describe color to someone born blind.
spiritual things are spiritually discerned....and everyone will have that ability at a time of God's choosing.
you fight against something that you don't understand...take Gamaliel's advice and leave it be, if it is from God you cannot win, if it isn't, it will collapse on it's own.
my fear is that anti-Church blogs like this simply harden the hearts of those involved, which could make it harder for them in the future when the truth is revealed....not to mention the damage you do by drawing away the weakest, which God takes a very dim view of.
"you are using human reasoning, which dooms you to failure"
Wrong. It is called thinking for yourself. A God given attribute when used wisely keeps you from falling for a con.
WAT brought up a good point regarding calling. However, it seems that in the end he is saying that people were called into the WCG that they might keep the Sabbath and thereby show love for God. But, the desire to seek and have a growing relationship with God is a show of love in itself. Is a person previously ignorant of the Sabbath who is showing love in his desire for a closeness with God needful of the Sabbath to truly show his love? Why?
Another person hears Billy Graham during his being called to a closeness with God; Is his love for God fake because the Sabbath was not taught? I know many that have cleaned up their lives and are thankful for redemption; is that not the first great commandment? And in most cases the 2nd great commandment (maybe the COGs were weak on the second great commandment?). Was their Christianity and love for God aborted because the act of keeping the sabbath was not taught?
When I consider the parable of the Sower, did the WCG or other COGs provide a fertile ground that a called believer may produce a 30 to 100 fold increase (as described in Mark)? And if the mind of the believer was the original fertile ground was that believer then able to produce a 30 to 100 fold increase within the COGs? I simply do not think so. The WCG generally provided anything but strong individual growth for the believer, some believers were only able to survive and perhaps most either left their calling (for lack of a better term) altogether or needed to be moved to another environment to thrive.
So, while I do think calling or a stirring plays a role in our having initially attended the COGs, I believe the controlling nature of the organizations kept people there and not the Holy Spirit. The COGs did not provide a fertile ground themselves nor an environment that a mind with a fertile ground could thrive in. The fruits of the COGs were largely about dividing people from others and eventually amongst themselves. But, perhaps WAT is right that it is a great testament to the Lord that some can still be His within these flawed and often corrupted organizations.
Anon 8:32 I don't know you, but do you believe people are called into Ron Weinland's group? Into PCG? Into RCG? Into UCG? Into the 7th day Baptists? Into the Baptists? Is this something you are able to reason about? Or is it by definition human reasoning? Or because you believe you are one of the truly called is your reasoning by definition not human reasoning (legit question, not meant to provoke)?
I agree that there are dangers that must be considered on these websites. A constant diet of negativity by focusing on the faults and falseness of the COGs can affect us negatively. We need to look to the Author and Finisher of our faith in all things. And that means prayer and even praying before posting (which I don't always do). I wonder if the COGs poisoned the minds of many faithful mainstream Christians or those babes in Christ such that they didn't accept the simplicity of Christ.
But, you are right, a hardened heart is the worst things we can develop. We should love even those we disagree with and recognize how easy it is to harden our hearts when we are pointing out the wrongs of the COGs. I consider how the Jews/Pharisees responded to Christ's words. Their identity and life structure was being torn in two when they accepted Christ. Our faith must be in Christ and not men or organizations to prevent a hardening of our hearts. I pray we all have malleable hearts that can truly show an increase of 30, 50, or 100 fold. Or more.
Yes I do use human reasoning. That is the only kind there is! Every religious person thinks they have been called by god. People would not be duped by a scam if they knew it was a scam. Every failed prophecy made by HWA makes no difference to someone “called” by god to be in WCG. Never mind that he claimed revealed knowledge from god while copying material from other writers. I am just mad at myself for taking so long to wake up.
Jim-AZ
8:32 am, you talk about those who are not called and cannot possibly know what it is like to be called, like a color blind person cannot imagine color.....
Now I would think a lot of us on this site are ex-members, some of them were members for long periods of time, some of them even preachers etc. So what category are we in if we once believed we were called, and now no longer believe. Obviously we experienced being called if we devoted our lives to the WCG for a length of time, and now we no longer are called? So we do not understand what it is like to be called? Ok I do remember there was an explanation for this group of people -- unpardonable sin, back to their vomit etc..... Do you believe in that too?
God who?
The worst thing the Satan-called Armstrongs did was create a bunch of PKs with mental problems that can't be cured.
"It is called thinking for yourself."
Actually, 90% of the zombies out there let the fake media and fake academic system do their thinking and lying for them.
8:32, you write, "anti-Church blogs like this simply harden the hearts of those involved, which could make it harder for them in the future when the truth is revealed..." Even the late anti-theist Christopher Hitchens acknowledged that if a god actually showed up, and revealed itself, then he would believe and accept whatever that god demanded. So nobody's heart is hardened here, unbelievers simply have no evidence to believe, but IF evidence ever arrived, any atheist or anti-theist would be happy to accept and "believe." That subtle flutter of a feeling you believers have inside is a psychological wish being fulfilled - it makes you warm and fuzzy to believe that someone divine is looking out for you and that your life has a purpose and a meaning that makes you special and loved and all the warm gooey stuff you want to believe is true. Without skepticism your heart has no gate, it's open to suggestion and persuaded by feelings that you attribute to a god because you want to. Skeptics, atheist and anti-theists are simply 'believers' who are awaiting the proof of your claims beyond the daydreams of your imagination.
8.32 AM is correct. Those who were called know what he is talking about but choose to deny it. It is called the "Denial Syndrome". Yes, HWA may look like putting others' Biblical knowledge plus his understanding and called it revealed knowledge from God to him but you cannot deny the fact that HWA departed from his original teachings, hence the many splinters and wannabes like Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, Fluffy, etc. Te proof is the departure from the truth. Some will argue that if this is the case, then the Catholic is the true church. Not so because the Catholics themselves departed from the original teachings of the early church founded by Christ.
I stand by God's divine revelation to HWA through His word. WCG is wrong on Prophecy and Administration but not on the Truth. Keep to the original teachings (Radio Church of God) like D&R, Monday Pentecost, Human Nature, BI, Holy Days, Sabbath, Clean and Unclean meat,Plan of God, etc minus the prophecy and administartion (meddling in individuals'life).
Since when has man believe and obey God from the beginning? Man is hard-wired to disobey God. Only the called will be given spiritual understanding to discern spiritual things. Even this understanding is lost by most of ex-WCG people. Sad.
Thanks, SHT for this and the other topics you bring up. While most of us who are no longer part of the church don't worry about some of these topics, these are very important ideas that drive the various COG's and how they maintain followers. I appreciate the thought you put into them. It is nice to discuss something other than the latest trouble in the church.
Grittyman
Yes, believing in God makes me "warm and fuzzy inside." It definitely makes me feel "special and loved and all the warm gooey stuff." I love these feelings, and you can't take them from me.
But is that why I believe in God? No, I believe in Him because He answers my prayers. God is no respecter of persons, so if people put away their recreational drugs, keep it in their pants, live by Gods laws, and pray regularly for mankind's well being, God will answer their prayers. Then they too can enjoy feeling warm, fuzzy, special, loved, and all the warm gooey stuff. It feels great. A natural high. Join me Grittyman.
I appreciate these postings. I find them thought provoking. When I read the posts and comments I find myself looking at how people use words. "Calling" is one that is prominate in this posting and comments. There are varying usages that seems to be a source of conflict. Each one has a definition that suits a purpose that supports their point of view. But someone else's usage doesn't. Then there is a debate about who has the more correct usage.
I'm not sure that I have any conclusions about this as yet but I do find it interesting to consider:)
It is my understanding that people will often see what they want to see (as with ghost hunters) and hear what they want to hear. Sometimes the "call of God" is nothing more than your own inner wishes or the wishes of others (Granddad was a preacher, dad was a preacher and you are expected to follow in their footsteps). Perhaps the sense of calling by God is similar to determining one's gift. If you have a passion for a certain ministry, if you try it and are very good at it, and others say that you are good at it, then perhaps that activity is your gift. Doesn't I Tim 3 say, "If anyone desires to be an elder, he desires a good thing?" Of course, that desire might not be from God, but from a desire for position, power, money, influence and status. Some churches don't appoint someone to be an elder or pastor, but recognize them as one as they have demonstrated to others that he already is doing the work of an elder, for the right reasons, etc. I suspect that in the WCG the qualifications for leadership have little to do with I Tim 3, but more with unquestioned loyalty to ONE man, HWA. How else can you explain some of the "leading evangelists" those who qualify for a lovely home on Waverly Drive in Pasadena?
SHT's post cites his big dilemma: "...Where is God in the appalling (that's putting it mildly) conduct of their leaders?...When one focuses on Jesus, totally and with pure focus, then God will be within them and work through them and make change from the inside out..."
Is one's pure focus on Jesus, BEFORE God makes changes, really the answer? No! That would put you, self, in charge of your salvation. That would be making God unable to do anything until He could find sufficient Jesus focus someplace within human beings.
Leaders in the former WCG taught that. It kind of makes God out to be some unknowing dummy. If God is God, why would He wait upon any human being before doing something?
Once upon a time, May 1998, a transcript of a sermon titled "Can You Work Out Your Own Salvation," Part 3, exposes that WCG thinking:
******
"...I started this example and it just happened to be a flashback, because this is what the old Worldwide Church of God used to say. And I’ve heard it many times. See, I know all these “buzz words,” and I say them myself, and it brings back all these memories.
And they used to say that as people came along, and as you came into existence, God and Christ, the angels, they would be up there. You know, maybe they’d be viewing mankind, and they would see a particular individual that had the attitude, and maybe they were a little humble, and maybe they were this. And they had all of these wonderful qualities, and God and Christ kind of sat there, and said, “Well, you know, if we expose, and if we call this person now to this mighty truth, they seem to be in, in a situation in which they would be able to accept this.” And that’s what was taught!..."
******
But, what might be more of the actual reality? Again, from the transcript:
******
"...We were the weak and base! Do you know what happened when one of us came along?
God and Jesus Christ, if you put it in the same scenario, you know, God kind of leaned over and bumped Christ and said, “Whoa! There’s a base one! Wow! There’s a weak one over there! Hey, why don’t we pull that one in?”
See? If you’re going to stay in that scenario, then you’d have to go that way, because at least the Bible backs that up..."
******
Of course, obviously, the speaker had the following in mind:
I Cor 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Of course, God would have to drag (John 6:44) those individuals, b/c who would ever want to go God's ways? The Sabbath is not a "test commandment," b/c without God's Spirit one isn't going to properly observe God's Sabbath.
God makes the choice as to who is called to be sealed into His Church; He isn't waiting for somebody to have some "Jesus focus," or He'd be very lonely!
And time will tell...
John
The terms “calling” and “second generation” Christian had been coined and misapplied apparently long before I arrived at AC in Fall of ‘66. We heard them first in Uncle Roddy’s Bible Class probably the first week of classes.
Early freshman year, during ice breakers in our dorm, the main topic of the evening was “How did you come to be here at “God’s College”? There were three of us freshmen who had been raised in long term church families, one of whom I had known for years. The fourth and remaining freshman had been in the US Air Force. We were blown away by the icebreakers of the upper classmen, because there had been “miraculous” circumstances leading to most of their arrivals at the college.
Looking for a calling, or thinking you had a calling (of course, directly-related to Armstrongism and the end times) was another one of those activities fancied by all members, just as was finding that very important Jew in your family background, experiencing some sort of major healing, or an example of supernatural protection.
Back in the ‘50s, my parents were looking for new answers following a family tragedy, and had begun listening to HWA, and also Billy Graham. That was the state of one’s ability to “prove all things” in those pre-internet days. The parents ruled out Billy Graham because they bought into the idea that HWA had “the truth” about the sabbath. I found this out one Saturday night as we watched a Billy Graham campaign on TV, and were amazed at the response to his altar call.
Myself and a younger brother watched in fear as the parental units morphed from
loving, strong normal parents, into the worst imaginable zero tolerance, extreme all the time punishing tyrants one could possibly imagine. The anger which accompanied this constant punishment made a good case for the non-presence of the Holy Spirit within them. But, the all-knowing church didn’t see it that way, and my dad ended up being ordained as a local elder (my frosh year at AC), and continuing the harshness with the younger siblings long after I had escaped to Pasadena. I remember pep-talking myself during summer of ‘66, as I walked the lawn mower through the neighborhood looking for lawn mowing jobs amongst the neighbors. I told myself “Bob, you can’t blame God’s Church for this horrible abuse, you just have messed up parents.” Problem is, I was not being honest with myself, because having church friends both locally and through SEP, I knew what the other kids were going through, and many were undergoing the same sorts of experiences. This deviated sharply from what our peers at school and cousins were experiencing. We’re not talking normal Americana here.
We were also taught at home that there was a secondary calling attributing itself to us kids, that there was something great and special for our family and its role in the church. The problem was, no spiritual entity ever got in contact with any of us children to reconfirm this. Not only did this cast doubt on our own “callings”, but also raised serious questions about the callings out parents seemed to think they had. Remember, the church had not yet revised, backpedalled, and spun the failure and disappointment 1972-75, reprogramming many of the members to the constant revisions we have witnessed so many times over the decades since.
BB (to be cont’d)
(Continued from above)
I believe that the types of callings experienced in Armstrongism were a hyper-imagined event. People are capable of working themselves into a frenzy over these sorts of things, to the extent that they often seem real. The ministers exploited them, without a doubt, but ever vigilant about their own stature and authority, they also taught that God did not speak audibly and directly to church members, nor did He speak to them in dreams. Now we couldn’t have a “mandate” superceding the authority of the ministry, could we?
Over the past several decades, I’ve become aware of any number of church members who eventually realized that they had simply become caught up in group-think, vividly imagining that they had or were participating in a special calling. There are others, who in spite of all developing information, and their own advanced age, still do. People from both of these groups have died over the years, no special purpose having ever come into play.
I personally believe that my own special purpose is related to my gifts with the types of industrial and office machinery which people use to generate wealth, to put food upon their tables, and the tables of their employees. I believe this includes the responsibility to impact the culture in which this takes place in a positive way, to infuse my industry with honesty and integrity. It’s meaningful, it’s contemporary, and it’s what keeps me engaged and energized in life, getting up every morning to face the day’s adventures. Any profession worth having eventually does become a calling. That, to me, is the most real thing in my life, something that I’ve never betrayed, and it’s the one thing that has never betrayed me.
BB
Well SHT, you have gone and done it. You took the bait and ran with it. First it is questioning the founder's baptism and by extension questioning the validity of everyone's baptism under him. Then it is castigating the congregants as a mirror reflection of their founder - nothing but power and status seekers. Then you call the church organization they have spent the majority of their lives in NOT CHRISTIAN and that would make the poor lay member ...... what? And now you are going to become a scientist and try and research and look for evidence, so that you can factually deduce and determine the actual reason why God determined a person to be called into the WCG. So now it is questioning the calling from God only because for some unbelievable reason, it is related to HWA and the WCG.
That is a slightly exaggerated opinion - you have been sharp and spot on in detailing many of the abuses, the craziness, the evil and there are not enough descriptions to describe what has been and is the character of the leaders of the corporate COGs. But with that said, my impression of you is that if you got a hold of the keys to a CAT D8 bulldozer with all of what you call "Armstrongism" right in front of you, you would push ALL of it into the sea.
You asked the question "why" in your previous post. I put forth a plausible explanation based upon many years of asking hundreds of people about how they arrived in the WCG. As others have commented, there is a myriad of reasons. Some of the stories are basic such as I initially went with a friend. Others were actually seeking and found what they were looking for. Some came into the WCG from very tragic circumstances and the radio pitch from HWA soothed their pain. There were numerous "no matter what I thought and no matter what I did contrary, there was a strong urge to come here". The last category were the "road to Damascus" type of calling - many miraculous events leading the person to make a dramatic life changing decision.
That you are willing to tackle the legitimacy of the calling from God concerning anyone associated with the WCG is interesting to me. My first big question for you is, do you really know what you are fighting against? The next big question would be how are you going to get around "NO MAN". The John 6:44 no man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draws (drags) him. This scripture alone when applied to a good percentage of the people I talked to through the years who had either no or only once or twice a year religious affiliation and entered a conversion process in the WCG based upon a convincing calling is as legitimate as it gets. You can't de-legitimatize any steps of the conversion process (regardless of where) because it fights against Christ's own words. But you can de-legitimatize after the start of conversion because the bible is replete with example after example whether by parable or direct statement of people doing nothing in the Christian walk and even worse apostatizing.
The people I fellowshiped with in the COGs never talked about becoming actual God or how many cities they would rule or how many planets they would colonize. These people are appreciative of the forgiveness, the earnestness of salvation, the chance for eternal life with their very savior and even maybe their extended family from the beginning of time. They continue to forge a relationship with God through the keeping of the commandments and identify themselves as the disciples of Jesus Christ because they have love for one another.
That these people sit in such a tainted environment perplexed me for a long time. But I came to see as others have commented, the Church of God has been a tainted institution almost from the very beginning.
Continued:
Continued:
Continued:
Armstrongism in part is an un-Christian organization. Strip apart a few categories such as the idol leaders and some ministers and then chuck the Ezekiel warning disguised as the gospel and then get rid of some of the false and evil doctrines as well as the faulty government and you will have left something pretty close to what started in the 1st century.
Everybody is looking for proof based upon scientific or human reasoning concerning spiritual things. If you have the time to post about the Godly calling, or the validity of the Holy Spirit or even the proof of the existence of God have at it. In the least it brings about interesting discourse.
There are other church groups that also firmly believe they have a special calling. For example the Jehovah’s Witnessed an the Mormons.
Believing HWA was the only one who had it right is just our opinion or former opinion.
WATT,
Why are you talking about someone taking the bait?
It seems you are ignoring callings that do not lead to WCG or the COGs. The accounts you heard about how WCGers came into WCG are of no greater impact than many millions of others who started going to the baptist church or other "mainstream" churches. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
I think you are saying that God calls who He may. I agree (but not flippantly). SHT said that he believed their were Christians in the COGs. But, do they thrive the way they should to increase 100 fold? Many are called few are chosen..
Does being called and winding up in WCG make one less likely to be chosen? If not, why not? You concede that there were many wrongs in the WCG. It seemed like the WCG lacked many of the fruits of the spirit, particularly in leadership. Is that a good environment in which to thrive? Do you believe that matters? Do you support the Jehovah Witnesses or other COG groups in the same manner?
Associating with Judaizers or gnostics was warned against in the 1st century. Why is a corrupt organization like WCG okay in the 20th century? Control groups like WCG, JW, etc. have a lot of people that feel damaged and victimized at a much higher rate than the mainstream religions. Whether you believe they were or not, these people have their stories and they now far outnumber those currently in the COGs. You say the Church of God has been tainted for centuries. I disagree, the church is individual people and each has been cleansed through Christ's sacrifice and faith in Him. It is damaging to the Christian faith to believe that God calls who He will and that he will place them in a corrupt organization that separates themselves as the elect in contrast to other Christians that are in organizations that do not have these issues with the same rapid regularity. The judging and separation of family, Christians, and other churches and congregations cannot just be washed over with "it's outside human understanding", but somehow you have this spiritual discernment by reason of ....
2.14 I would gladly "join you" in your enjoyment of your "natural high." I'm serious when I say that if the Christian claims of "answered prayer" etc. were true, I would wish to access those promises as much as anyone else. All of my natural highs are found in the mountains and rivers and forests of my home but I would be quick to add the surge of "joy" and holy spirit "comfort" etc. if those things existed. After 30 years of WCG and GCI ministry I can honestly say that I never saw a miracle, no-one that I anointed every got healed (other than the natural restorative processes of the body), and I never met a minister or a member who could prove that they or anyone else ever got supernaturally healed (verifiable by a medical expert). I met many who ATTRIBUTED whatever happened in a circumstance to divine intervention but there was always another, non-divine explanation for what happened.
It's actually a little sad, to me, that the hospitals are full of sick and dying humans while there are religious individuals through whom god supposedly heals - why are those agents of healing not walking the corridors of the hospitals restoring the suffering children and the lepers and cancer patients...like Jesus did? If the answer is, "that's not god's plan at this time..." then could that argument not be also used by Muslims who also can't heal and by Buddhists who can't heal etc. etc.
GrittyMan wrote:
After 30 years of WCG and GCI ministry I can honestly say that I never saw a miracle, no-one that I anointed every got healed (other than the natural restorative processes of the body), and I never met a minister or a member who could prove that they or anyone else ever got supernaturally healed (verifiable by a medical expert).
How do religious people explain the fact that God will heal cancer, heart disease, and fibromyalgia, but he will NEVER heal an amputee? He will let a feeble arm grow bigger and stronger, but he will NEVER restore a lost limb. Is God's healing power limited, or is the truth simply that GOD HATES AMPUTEES ?
GrittyMan@ 3.17 PM,
Exactly my experience. After 44 years with WCG/Armstrongism ( still am,initially fellowshipping with them, later alone) I never had "natural high" of these lucky Christians who seeem to strike it rich as in a jackpot. All of my natural highs are found in my favourite music/songs,trees and moutains, beautiful sunsets ( I have never seen a dull or depressing sunset} and dark, beautiful clouds just before a thunderstorm, reading some beautiful poetry (e.g John Keats' A Thing of Beauty Is a Joy Forever or Robert frost's The Road Not Taken).
My burning question that has haunted me all these years in Armstronism ( our calling is now and if we reject, we reject eternal life) is why I do not experience natural highs of love, joy, peace, and other fruits promised after repentance and being baptized? What am I missing? Yes, I really would like to join 2.14AM now if at all possible.
Gritty Man. I also notice that Psychics don't win the lottery very much either and always have to advertise where they are meeting for their conventions.
Jim
Great insight and view into this subject ~ an extremely complicated subject.
Spiritual discernment would be grouped right in with any other gift from God. What gift or talent a person possesses is as individual as it gets and is explained clearly in the bible. I am not claiming any spiritual gift or insight. I am more walking the slippery slope into oblivion than you would know.
All the years I was in the WCG I always felt that the many people that I interacted with outside the church were much better than me and us religiously speaking. When HWA said the only reason we were called was to do the work and that 90 percent of you don't get it, I was perplexed. I (we) didn't seem to be progressing towards the two great commandments as a church.
As for other churches, I personally have not seen one church that is doctrinal pure. I have never asked a person affiliated with another religion how they got there. The example I gave is what I was engrossed in.
Why would God call people into a corrupt organization is exactly something I would have said even just a few years ago. Nothing has been pure since the beginning of time. From Adam to Cain to the kingdoms of Israel to John the Baptist to the whole of the early churches to Christ's message to the 7 churches and even the beginning of the kingdom will be filled with tares.It is problem after problem after big problem.
Personally I have grown more in the worst of a religious condition. There comes a time when a person has to ask themself, do I care more about the truth than following an error filled idol? The words we are given is there is going to be a trial by fire and much tribulations before entering the kingdom of God. So why would God call a person into a corrupt organization?
Who is called where and why is going to be an ongoing question with no clear answer.
You hit the core or essence of the matter, WATT. Since every organized church group has a mixture of truth and error (including all of the ACOGs), then there is NO doctrinal purity. No “one true”. They are all contaminated, and there is a lot of pot and kettle calling. Therefore, the only intelligent course of action is to follow the real primary indicator, the fruits! Go where there is the best exemplification of good fruits. It’s a simple matter of Matt. 7:16! False teachers and prophets (ahem! 1975? 3 - 5 years???) are incapable of faking the good fruits that automatically develop in the believers in Jesus Christ. Is it any wonder why Armstrongism is such a confusing hot mess?
BB
RB,
Though we’re all unique in our thinking, I’ve had similar thoughts as those you expressed. Not to beat a dead horse, but I believe Armstrongism as a whole is not conducive to the work of the Holy Spirit. Yet, some with certain personality and emotional traits seemingly are happy in the COGs. Generally they have a good social network with shared beliefs. But, if you aren’t as socially adroit or if you begin questioning some of those shared beliefs, it’s a different ballgame.
Armstrongism simply didn’t teach Christ living in us, and hey, that is critical for a Christian. The Lord shows His love for us in that He was a sacrifice for our sins and also removed our sins from us. If we believe and accept the law of faith we are saved ...now. Jesus Christ is our King and we enter His Kingdom now. And we look forward to His future expanded kingdom in whatever form that takes.
If this isn’t emphasized we are indeed most miserable. The work of the Holy Spirit in the cogs was largely about having your mind opened to their “truth”, their organization, and being better able to keep the law. At least those were the objective measures. Christ changing our heart by living in us in a new covenant with better promises that does not focus on the law is rejuvenating. That understanding is what brought me joy that 30+ years in the COGs did not. No physical miracles needed. That’s at least my experience.
Actually, HWA and the WCG, in becoming spiritual policemen and authoritarians, made themselves into a cheap imitation of the Holy Spirit. In presuming that their gnosticism and legalism could transform members as the Holy Spirit does if left to do that work, they grieved the Holy Spirit, and kept all of the members in the baby stage or milk stage.
BB
I should be more careful saying Armstrongism didn't teach this or that. I suppose they did teach CHrist living in us though the larger COGs seem to have moved from mentioning that as much. So, yes, the WCG taught a lot of things but the application and focus is different. Most often we were taught that we are the temple (so keep it pure and in shape!). Christ is our High Priest that lets us pray directly to the Father. But, again, it misses the emphasis that Christ is now living in us having cleansed us and reconciling us to the Father. That is where the joy is. We are a new creation.
When they do address it, the COG focus is seemingly on a temporary forgiveness (now get your act together, don't blow this, and if you do sin, repent and get your act together, etc.), but, on a practical level that is similar to the old covenant and the sin sacrifices.
Instead, Christ promises to give us rest and that He is our rest. We are human and make mistakes, but faith in the sacrifice of Christ counts as righteousness. He will live in us now and make us a new creation and probably enjoy Keats and Frost even more...
Watt,
We've been locked into the organization mind-set: Somehow it seems, as goes some organization, so too goes the church. But, the "church" consists of those that the Lord gives His spirit. It is highly unlikely an organization will ever be pure as there are too many pulls on it and too many individuals that have not fully accepted Christ's sacrifice and do not have a proper humility that allows for repentance and faith. But, each individual can do this and that is what the church is made of -- those who accept the Sacrifice and desire the Lord living in them. Thus, they may falter at times but their faith is as righteousness and they are yet clean. And as they say, they can rise and rise again.
Grittyman
When I started attending services, and put out effort to act upon what I understood, my prayers started to be answered. It was self evident.
I'II add two qualifications. First, I worked very hard. Second I determined to walk the narrow gate, not giving myself exemptions from Gods laws. This is in sharp contrast to what I witnessed at services. Members and ministers mistreating others was common. So God not answering the prayers of even long time members is not surprising.
A trait of God that I love is that as a expression of the preciousness of human life, He never lowers His standards.
It's a common reaction to blame God for human suffering. But it's not His intervention that causes the sick and dying. After all, He does compare Himself to a nobleman going to a far country.
4.40 PM
'God hates amputees.' You are being silly. If ordinary people react with pity and compassion toward amputees, God must react with greater compassion. Christ healed ALL that were brought before Him. God obviously has the advanced technology to restore limbs.
Anon 9:08 AM said:
I worked very hard. Second I determined to walk the narrow gate, not giving myself exemptions from Gods laws. This is in sharp contrast to what I witnessed at services. Members and ministers mistreating others was common. So God not answering the prayers of even long time members is not surprising.
This Anon didn't learn a couple of the most basic lessons. God sends rain upon the just and unjust alike. Judging your brethren and presuming to know why some had their prayers answered, and some didn't, tells me that this Anon had his focus in all the wrong places.
12.37 PM
God is kind to the unjust only within certain limits. Otherwise God is not a God of justice. There is a firm God created reality. If a person plants a certain type of seed, at a certain depth, in a certain type of soil, at a certain temperatures/season, the seeds will germinate and grow. Likewise the conditions for answered prayer are set.
If a person never experiences answered prayer, the sins of commission and omission are the reason. Simple cause and effect.
And I didn't say that God doesn't have the right to say no to a certain request.
12:37 But I thought our sins were washed away by the blood of Jesus, how can they still have the power to prevent god from answering my prayers? This makes god out to be such an abusive "Father" we kids are never quite good enough, never quite making the grade for him to bless/heal/provide for his kids. Whatever happened to "unconditional love"? Why does this god make it so hard for us to get it right? It's like we're set up for failure...unless...we have the right heavenly password and can present a clean bill of spiritual and emotional and moral health - I guess, narrow is the way and very, very, very few there be that find it??
Of course, this is all just a Straw Man to avoid having to admit that answered prayer is nothing more than coincidence or attributing something to god because you choose to, and the answer "no" to prayer is just another way of saying that the prayer wasn't answered, right?
Whatever happened to John 14:12-14? "Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.…" Even if the context is whatever you ask in the name of Jesus...as it relates to doing the work of Jesus, when did this ever work?
And when did this ever work? Matthew 7:7-8 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." For the 'believers' go ahead, "ask" and see if it is given to you, "knock" and see if the door is opened. Ah, you might say, that's 'testing god' and he doesn't work like that...but that's exactly what the scriptures ARE saying, this is a setup for you to put god to the test.
And when did this ever work? James 5:14-15? "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick." It doesn't say "might" restore the one who is sick, it says "will". Would anyone dare suggest that of the millions of people who have been anointed and have had no divine intervention that they all simply lacked faith?
Anon 4:40 PM observes that God "will NEVER restore a lost limb. Is God's healing power limited, or is the truth simply that GOD HATES AMPUTEES ?"
But he LOVES amputees if they are salamanders. starfish, certain lizards (as long as it's their tail they lost), planarian worms, octopuses (as long as it's the arm they use for transferring sperm), and some other animals. They get the privilege of regenerating amputated body parts. We mammals don't.
Hard to see why, but it must be an integral part of the great plan of salvation. If humans had been given the capacity to regenerate severed limbs, God could save us only with great difficulty. Apparently salvation comes with great ease to planarians, salamanders, etc., and they can do fine with less stringent physical restrictions.
Grittyman
Try a thought experiment. Imagine going to church with a mindset of I will not abuse or mistreat another member. One feels clean as a consequence. Next image going to church with the attitude if I will mistreat others by putting them down etc. The natural consequence is one of experiencing dark, foul emotions. God requires the first for answered prayer. If people will not make the resolution to live by His laws, He will not heed peoples requests. God does not answer the prayers of unrepentant sinners.
We both know that all the relevant scriptures need to be applied to heeling. People slant scriptures to the effect of "but you promises daddy, you promised to heal." Where is Gods right to say no? Where is respect for ownership of His healing service? This attempted enslavement of God is despicable. Paul and Barnabas were regarded as Gods when they healed at Lystra in the book of Acts. I believe that this is the motivation of those who constantly try to manipulate God to heal. God sits on a great thrown. Instead of this being respected, people try to pull Him down from His thrown with a "but you promised daddy." That ministers take this approach is unsurprising.
Jim @ 6.54AM and 8.32AM,
Thank you for such spiritual insight. You have already given me a shot in the arm natural high. A refreshing head start: a glimmer of hope and light at the end of my dark spiritual tunnel. I will remember Frost's stopping by the woods on a journey with these beautiful words, "The woods are lovely, dark and deep/But I have promises to keep/And miles to go before I sleep/And miles to go before I sleep." Yes, I have miles to go before I sleep. Hopefully the promises to keep with Christ is met before I sleep.
Retired Prof
Nice to hear from you. With the advanced age of many of the posters, one wonders whether they have crocked it if not heard from for awhile.
Anon at 8:06 AM, you can relax. My doctor says considering my age, family history, and state of health, there is a good chance I will survive till the end of my life.
Anon 3:32,
Friend I've not read where the man without sin has his prayers answered, but many times I've read a lack of faith hindered the prayer.
I think you are putting too much credit on your asserted diligence to stay on the narrow path (rom 9). Certainly, let's live good lives. Does your definition of the narrow path consist primarily of the Fruits of the Spirit? Faith is what the Lord is looking most for. Again, our faith is counted as righteousness and the prayers of the righteous man avail much. I believe our Lord is more interested in our Faith than many forms of diligence I have seen. Perhaps your diligence is of the Fruits of the Spirit type. If not, our "righteousness" is as filthy rags.
I like that you mentioned the Lord is not beholden to answer our prayers, but consider that faith is what is generally lacking not perfect law keeping.
I will tell my story, and let the readers be the judge as to whether my calling was from God, or if it was something else.
I was born while my parents were attending the WWCG in the late '60s, early '70s. They left the WWCG in the mid-'70s and started attending church with a group that had recently split from WWCG.
I grew up in this splinter group and left it at around 18 years of age to go out and sow my wild oats so to speak. I spent the next 13 years doing whatever it was I wanted. I slept with many women, did some drugs, and then did it all over again along with a host of other things that I am truly ashamed of.
Somewhere around the age of 31, I was taking a walk one day with my mother and my now deceased brother-in-law, and we began to talk about religion, God, etc... I remember clearly telling both of them that I would never go back to the church that I had left as a teenager, let alone practice those things that I had learned and practiced then.
This is where it began to get interesting. It was not a year from the time I had made that statement, that I started to get a nagging feeling about the debauched life I was living. It was as if something, or someone, was telling me that what I was doing, was unprofitable. From that point on, I started to read the Bible again, and then as if God was twisting my arm behind my back, I found my way back to that very splinter church I had left back when I was 18. And this is where it got interesting again.
I spent the next 8 years roughly back with this church organization, and then through a series of events brought on by its current Pastor Director (go figure), I had my faith in what I believe God was doing back at the age of 31-32 with me, sorely tested. My family and I left this group, but what I came to understand in that aftermath, is that I believe God was not calling me back to an organization that taught "their" version of the Bible, but He was calling me back to a way of life. A way that leads to something better than the garbage I had myself steeped in. Pleasurable for the moment, but with no reward beyond the present.
That is why I believe I was called to live a life he expected of me so that I have hope for something better in the future. The fact that I said that I would never go back to practicing those things outlined in the Bible and attend another church assembly, was almost as if I pronounced my own path in the future. How else do I explain to myself a nagging feeling that comes on almost a year later? I truly believe it was as if when I made that statement out loud, God said: "oh yeah, really?"
So today, I still practice almost all of those things that I grew up learning because I have been able to go to the Bible and prove them. The things that I could not prove, I have basically left behind. My family and I attend "loosely" with an organized Sabbath-keeping group, but we do not call ourselves members of these groups like so many want to do. I believe that is where their mistake lies...trust in a man.
So that's my story. You be the judge.
I was a leader of my people, waging battle all over the northern seas. Our lives were uncertain but we boldly and confidently faced death in a world that was bound to disapppear in Ragnarok.
Then one day one of our irish slaves started talking about a better world, a world to come a world of peace AFTER Ragnarok.
He did miraculous things like painting, writing and administration. I forced my people to be baptized like him. HOWEVER the eventual decision to trade the Hammer of Thor for the Cross of the suffering God of Ireland I left an INDIVIDUAL decision.
Today we flood the world with easy constructable furniture and hand out prizes to champions of peace.
You be the judge if God had any hand in all of this.
Nck Forkbeard Godson
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