"My first big question for you is, do you really know what you are fighting against? The next big question would be how are you going to get around "NO MAN". The John 6:44 no man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draws (drags) him."
First, let me tackle John 6:44 so you can understand the viewpoint that I understand here. John 6:44 states:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
The proper perspective, I believe, to look at this scripture has to do with the reconciliation of man to the Father through Jesus Christ. I don't want to turn this post into a preach fest, but you asked me questions, and I have to respond by scripture:
"For if, while we were God's enemies, (speaking of the Father) we were reconciled to himthrough the death of his Son, (Jesus) how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved."
Now let's look at John 6 in context:
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you,the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” |
My understanding is as such: The Father God has been reconciled to man through Jesus Christ, who died for us and lives in us. The Spirit is what gives life (The Holy Spirit whom lives in us), and the flesh counts "for nothing". The focus that Jesus said was this: That it is a matter of who believes and who does not believe - those that believe that Jesus is the Son of God and those that would betray him. Jesus said that this is the reason He said no one can come to himself unless "the Father has enabled them" to believe.
The question is on belief. Jesus has made clear that any and all who believe in Him have life. This was proven as evidentiary by the acceptance of the Gentiles by the Holy Spirit who gave the Gentiles the same gift as the Jews - an event that absolutely rocked the hearts and minds and the worldviews of the Jewish Church. Those who did not believe were not drawn by the Father (God is never about forcing people to believe something or not, He gives choice), those who did believe did so because the Father accepted their belief even before Jesus actually died on the Cross.
Every man who believes is accepted by God. It doesn't make them perfect, it doesn't make them immune to sin - but it allows the ability of repentance through acceptance of reconciliation to the Father only provided by Jesus Christ. It is this message that Armstrongism is against - stating that reconciliation to the Father has not happened yet, is STILL A FUTURE EVENT EVEN NOW, that the world is still ruled by Satan except those few who believe in Armstrongism, and that those in the world are deceived and cut off from God, thereby not receiving or taking part in any reconciliation to the Father, whether Jew or Gentile, unless accepting of the doctrines of Armstrongism and the keeping of and bonding to the entirety of Law. This is contrary to the teachings of the New Testament, of Paul, of the Acts 15 Council decisions, and of the entirety of the reconciliation proof of God to man through the acceptance of the Gentiles without the necessity of the keeping of the Law as was mandated to the Jews in the Old Testament. This is where the "No man" difference is put to a test. So the question I have for you, then, is simply this: Did the Father reconcile man to himself - and who does that apply to? Armstrongism, or all who believe?
The other question that you pose is "do I know who I am fighting against"? Scripture answers that question in Ephesians 6:12:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.(NIV)
The bottom line to your question is this: The Father has been reconciled to man through Jesus Christ. Mankind has a choice: To believe, or not to believe. This is a personal choice, not done by force or coercion. No man can come to the Father unless drawn by the Father, to make the choice of belief. The issue is if one believes, or does not believe - in their heart, mind and soul - of who Jesus says that He is. The Father knows who does and who does not in their heart, and by their heart shall they believe. This is not a question of who is or is not accepted into Armstrongism or Armstrong's doctrines. It's a matter of belief in the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
submitted by SHT
11 comments:
My understanding is, if you read John 12:32, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" suggests that once Jesus rose from the dead, the invitation will be open to all men.
At the end, are you saying that Armstrongist churches believe that anyone who is not in the church will not get a chance when Christ returns? If so, that simply is not true. Even the PCG teaches that everyone will get a chance when Christ returns. The only thing the church does is train the future princes and princesses.
If this is not what you meant, please clarify.
11:31 -
At the end I said:
"This is not a question of who is or is not accepted into Armstrongism or Armstrong's doctrines. It's a matter of belief in the Son of God, Jesus Christ."
Every Armstrong-supporting church believes in the 2nd Resurrection as the time for all the "world" (that is, in Armstrong-Speak, the "called out ones"). I don't believe I stated that the COG's did not believe that anyone who is not in the church will "not get a chance" according to Armstrong or Armstrong's teachers. The difference I am stating is that scripture is very clear that man has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, and through grace, that all have been invited (called), something that the Churches of God simply states has not happened yet because they (incorrectly) teach that man is still cut off from God, and cannot come to Christ yet because they have not been called, or drawn, to Christ. Such a teaching is complete error. There are those who do believe, and there are also those who do not believe, then and now, and that is the point that I am stating that Christ was making in reference to the scripture in John mentioned.
Many are called through Christ, but few make the Choice of life in Christ.
Anon 11:31,
I don't see where the article suggest the COGs don't teach a second resurrection, we all know the second resurrection teaching. Yet still we all know that the COGs don't believe those outside the COGs are real Christians. Those that profess Christianity are interested in pleasing and following the Lord now. But, the COGs deny the Holy Spirit is in those that are not in the COGs and claim their lot is at best the second resurrection. This is arrogance and deception.
You state: "The only thing the church does is train the future princes and princesses." This simply pained me to read. Was that intentional?
SHT was asked: "...how are you going to get around "NO MAN". The John 6:44Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) no man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draws (drags) him."..."
SHT believes he does get around that "no man" of John 6:44 because SHT believes that: "...The question is on belief......Those who did not believe were not drawn by the Father (God is never about forcing people to believe something or not, He gives choice), those who did believe did so because the Father accepted their belief even before Jesus actually died on the Cross...."
Why is the question on belief? John 6:44 never even mentions the word "belief."
God is not waiting around looking for believers. Without His Spirit (Zech 4:6) first being involved, who is going to believe what? We are familiar with verses like Jer 10:23, 17:9; Romans 8:7! Where would that belief come from?
Belief isn't there unless God provides it: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power," Eph 1:19
That calling, and dragging, by God is by God's mighty power of His Spirit, and it is His choice; however, SHT wrote: "...God is never about forcing people to believe something or not, He gives choice..." Where is the proof for that statement?
How much choice did Saul have, while killing Christians, before God showed Saul that He had "veys to make Saul cooperate," become a believer and begin to follow God's ways?
God the Father is the initiator: not Jesus Christ or self.
Does SHT really believe God isn't about forcing people to believe? That God gives choice, and I must ask: where is the proof?
Where is the choice of self in the following scriptures?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
For those destined to become the sons of God, where is that choice of blood? Of the will of the flesh? Of the will of man? It's not there. It's the will (choice!) of God!
How about this verse?
Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"
Where is that choice of SELF in that? It isn't there. If something is going to begin/start a "good work" within an individual, it is God who will do that.
SHT, you are welcome to your thinking/reasoning about that John 6:44, but time will tell...
John
wow Gary.....
another SH*TTY post by a SH*TTY blogger....SHT.
Why do you keep letting this clown post his diatribes to "Banned"....???
What's the purpose of Banned if you turn it over to SH*T....???
I guess time will tell....
I don’t care what you think 8:15! I asked SHT to post here. You think his posts are so awful and yet they draw comments. If you don’t want to read his posts then don’t. I really don’t care. And as for Connie getting tired of them, well she is a big girl and can fight her own battles without you dragging her into it. Stop acting like a petulant spoiled brat because I stopped letting many of your vulgar posts through. You certainly don’t intimidate me.
Know what freaks me out? There are certain posters who not only disagree with the headliners, they actually campaign to silence them! Why the objection to freedom of speech?
With all the give and take here, regardless of the original position of an article writer, the truth usually comes out through debate.
Generally, it is the extremists who would silence others’ freedom of speech. We know this because of the types of sites and channels which typically refuse to allow commentary.
Connie never went away. He or she morphs from time to time. Anyone who can identify literary style knows this.
BB
Wanna take bets that it was Kevin McMillan who wrote that? Even better, if it is, he is posting anonymously. The very thing he has been throwing a temper tantrum over. You can tell the sabbath is approaching, satan is attacking his followers! LOL!
I like SHT’s blog posts so keep them coming!š
Also I actually thought the OP (WAT was it?) SHT responded to was really the person whose signature line is “time will tell...” and moniker John (who I noticed ventured to comment to this post).
I’d have to ask John if I understand you correctly you believe that God the Father is due credit for everything (eg one’s calling, being chosen, remaining faithful, eternally saved). I don’t disagree with such a premise. But, just wondering according to your view does the individual have any role to play and how so if their freedom and choice is actually God’s to determine? So either they’re granted immortality or permanently executed based on God’s will and His alone. Whatever choices the person has made in their life respecting salvation was really due to God the Father willing them to choose and act so. It’s seems like your view if I’ve understood it correctly is a form of predestination—to life or death.
JerryMay 10, 2019 at 10:41 PM asked: "...I’d have to ask John if I understand you correctly you believe that God the Father is due credit for everything (eg one’s calling, being chosen, remaining faithful, eternally saved)..."
Yes, and you went on with another question: "...does the individual have any role to play and how so if their freedom and choice is actually God’s to determine?..."
Again, no!
Then, you state: "...So either they’re granted immortality or permanently executed based on God’s will and His alone..."
God's plan of salvation for human beings is to save all (Matt 25:34; John 3:16 AND :17), and not lose one. It has been appointed humans to die once, not some second death.
If you have children, how many would you throw into the lake of fire?
You stated: "...Whatever choices the person has made in their life respecting salvation was really due to God the Father willing them to choose and act so..."
No, not solely, but where did you get choice for salvation? Enmity is still in all of our lives, without exception. Also, Satan and his Angels are in the mix as brute beasts made to later be taken and destroyed...in a lake of fire reserved for them at a time of their second death. (Matt 25:41, 46)
You commented saying: "...It’s seems like your view if I’ve understood it correctly is a form of predestination—to life or death..."
Yes, it is all part of a plan of salvation to eventually result in the salvation of every human being. That is not a universal salvation for all living beings, as the plan calls for the subsequent destruction of Satan and his Angels. So, yes, the Bible speaks if predestination (e.g. Roman's 8 and elsewhere). No human, no matter what happens in his/her life can inherently please God, nor ever glory in His presence.
Isaiah had a right view of God's plan. He was inspired to know some of our thinking, mostly to be recognized in the Great Last Day, that 8th Day, after the second resurrection occurs; there will be no need for the mythical Mickey mouse "third resurrection:"
Isaiah 64:8
"But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."
God is allowing all of us to learn to hate evil, as part of His plan. I didn't say to hate Satan, but that vile, evil, thing is in the mix.
Before all is said and done in this plan, all will agree with Paul's inspired words to the Corinthians:
2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19
Why not? Wasn't/isn't Christ our Passover sacrificed for us?
How will anything you do ever undo what a loving God, the Father, by the power of His Spirit, did/does through Christ?
Truth be known, if God gave all of us choice, we'd all end up in the lake joining hands with Satan and his buddies.
Most of us know what our hearts and our "great character" are really like, and it is not a pretty sight. If God does not save us, then who will? I already know I can't/won't, so I will be thankful, appreciative, etc., while God does His thing.
And time would tell...
John
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