Anonymous 3:24 PM said...
“My personal observation is that those who worked long and hard in school, do well in their Christian walk. Those who didn't study and do their homework, continue the pattern for the rest of their lives. ..... or they will become spiritual failures. Then they will come to Banned, posting that there is no God and that the bible is not His inspired word.”
Spong was born in Charlotte, North Carolina, and educated in public schools there. He attended the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he was elected to the Phi Beta Kappa honor society and graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1952. He received his Master of Divinity degree from the Virginia Theological Seminary in 1955. He has had honorary Doctor of Divinity degrees conferred on him by Virginia Theological Seminary and Saint Paul's College, Virginia, as well as an honorary Doctor of Humane Letters conferred by Muhlenberg College in Pennsylvania.
In 2005, he wrote: "[I have] immerse[d] myself in contemporary Biblical scholarship at such places as Union Theological Seminary in New York City, Yale Divinity School, Harvard Divinity School and the storied universities in Edinburgh, Oxford and Cambridge."[2]
Spong served as rector of St. Joseph's Church in Durham, North Carolina, from 1955 to 1957; rector of Calvary Parish, Tarboro, North Carolina, from 1957 to 1965; rector of St. John's Church in Lynchburg, Virginia, from 1965 to 1969; and rector of St. Paul's Church in Richmond, Virginia, from 1969 to 1976. He has held visiting positions and given lectures at major American theological institutions, most prominently at Harvard Divinity School. He retired in 2000. As a retired bishop, he is a member of the Episcopal Church's House of Bishops.[3] During his tenure as Bishop of Newark, confirmed communicants in the diocese virtually halved, from 44,423 in 1978, to 23,073 in 1996.
Spong describes his own life as a journey from the literalism and conservative theology of his childhood to an expansive view of Christianity.
Book Overview
A global and pioneering leader of progressive Christianity and the bestselling author of Why Christianity Must Change or Die and Eternal Life explains why a literal reading of the Gospels is actually heretical, and how this mistaken notion only entered the church once Gentiles had pushed out all the Jewish followers of Jesus. A man who has consciously and deliberately walked the path of Christ, John Shelby Spong has lived his entire life inside the Christian Church. In this profound and considered work, he offers a radical new way to look at the gospels today as he shows just how deeply Jewish the Christian Gospels are and how much they reflect the Jewish scriptures, history, and patterns of worship. Pulling back the layers of a long-standing Gentile ignorance, he reveals how the church's literal reading of the Bible is so far removed from these original Jewish authors' intent that it is an act of heresy. Using the Gospel of Matthew as a guide, Spong explores the Bible's literary and liturgical rootsits grounding in Jewish culture, symbols, icons, and storytelling traditionto explain how the events of Jesus' life, including the virgin birth, the miracles, the details of the passion story, and the resurrection and ascension, would have been understood by both the Jewish authors of the various gospels and by the Jewish audiences for which they were originally written. Spong makes clear that it was only after the church became fully Gentile that readers of the Gospels took these stories to be factual, distorting their original meaning. In Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy, Spong illuminates the gospels as never before and provides a better blueprint for the future than where the church's leaden and heretical reading of the story of Jesus has led usone that allows the faithful to live inside the Christian story in the modern world.
"As far as the evolutionary debate is concerned, it is really over, and if the religious community does not know that Darwin has already won, they are simply not abreast of the times. Only in the South do I still hear people debating for Creationism."
"I wish you well. However, survival rate in that context, please know, is not high"
21 comments:
For those who want a peek into Dennis's life that he probably didn't intend, go to your favorite real estate website and type in his Greenville address. Take a look at the house. Now compare it to the housing your favorite church bigwig has chosen.
Spong?
seriously?
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
For anyone who thinks that Dennis might have lived a privileged, entitled life as a WCG pastor, I would encourage you to Google 101 Leyswood Drive. 1996 was most likely his personal peak economically. The home is nice, but 20 years old and very modest compared to the Armstrongite ministerial homes we have regularly seen here.
BB
Dennis, we arrived at different destinations, but we have much in common. In addition to our shared past in Armstrongism, our journey out of Fundamentalism started with the same book. And I still believe that ALL Christians would do well to consult the Bishop's book about Biblical Fundamentalism.
Dennis, I have been reading the first book you mentioned (Rescuing the Bible …) and the second looks interesting, so I may get it too.
As far as evolution having won, that is correct, which is unfortunate, since it seems completely improbable.
Most of the intelligent design "scientists" are idiots, but not all.
I have been reading Stephen Meyer's Darwin's Doubt and he makes a strong scientific and mathematical case for the improbability of evolution.
Now he does not prove God is the creator - just that there had to be creation - this could be God or one or more creators - the book is not a theological book.
Can you recommend one or two books on evolution that you feel scientifically and mathematically explain evolution (so I can study why evolution scientists believe differently)?
Thanks,
TLA
BB It was also rented. I have "owned" two homes in my life. BOTH were with the help of my parents and neither from the Church. When they moved me to SC, they paid for the mortgage on the NY house until it sold and then I had to repay them for doing that. You can Google 2609 Eton Place in Findlay, Ohio if you wish to see my first home that, in hindsight, I wish I'd never left , quit the church back then and had a different story to tell. It cost 16,000 and my parents gave me the down payment. I sold it for 23,000 eight years later and thought I was king of the roost. lol.
I have never owned a home since no ever will. I rented in SC and now, in Portland, live rather simply in a rented room in a lovely home with amazingly nice people.
And too...I drove by Hinson Baptist Church recently, where HWA was Baptised and had a good chuckle as to the irony of my being here. My Pic on this sight was taken at the Portland Public Library in the Theology section (You know, HWA location for "6 months of intensive Bible study") and , while it is cropped out, I am holding a copy of Mystery of the Ages upside down. :)
As you say, Dennis, everyone has their story to tell. My setbacks came from paying less attention in choosing wives than most people exercise in adopting a pet at the humane society. Two divorces, child support and day care expenses were the result, and I wasn’t able to purchase a home until 1993. That’s when I began to be able to catch up with my peers who had married their high school sweethearts, and had created stable, lasting families.
But, live and learn!
BB
ARE WE SPECIAL?
In WCG, we were the specially called by God - the only ones who could understand the truth - in the only true church.
There are many other cults who feel the same way about their church. And they all have "inspired" leaders.
If you subscribe to Hulu, watch the series about cults. JWs are the second episode. The series show how people get sucked in and believe the leadership's strange ideas, and put up with sexual abuse.
In a new group I go to, I was expecting to get kicked out when I told them I doubted some of the Bible. Instead they told me they welcomed questions and welcomed me to their church. I am so used to my way or the highway, that I was not sure how they would take my questions.
They gave some thought about my questions and gave some possible answers. No opinion on Genesis 49 - if you believe it applies to the Jews, it either is for a far future fulfillment or no fulfillment.
They believe the return of Jews to Israel fulfills the prophecy about God returning Israel from all over the world to their original home. Seems more logical than squeezing 60 million people into a tiny country.
BB "But, live and learn!"
May I suggest "live and burn"? lol
Is it possible to be humble while telling others how humble you are?
Deciding what path you will follow in life is everyone's perogotive. But just because you decided you don't believe in God or the bible doesn't mean you're right because the journey was hard or long.
Being a believer is now considered the underdog, we are the oppressed now and it will only get worse from here. Athesits have no moral requirement to fulfil or higher power to held accountable too. They will attack without conscience or mercy with the full weight of the majority behind them.
Belivers will be accused of being backwoods barbarians and simpletons so low on the life spectrum they might as well be animals and require higher understanding atheists to rule over them.
This is how prophecy in the bible is playing out today.
Yeah, live and learn, as BB writes. I'm still learning and never expect to know It all, but there are some things I know for sure. One is that hormones tend to get us all into trouble. It's a necessary "evil" for species preservation, but does it ever lead to some dumb decisions and actions. Again, I fall back on the old "so soon oldt undt so late schmart."
Anonymous said...
Is it possible to be humble while telling others how humble you are?
Sure! The Apostle Paul did it all the time.
I Cor 15: 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth. 9For I am the least of the apostles AND AM UNWORTHY TO BE CALLED AN APOSTLE, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I WORKED HARDER THAN THEM—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.…"
Sometimes Paul told us how humble he was yet really great and sometimes really great but totally humble. Of the 24 times in the NT he is referred to as an Apostle, he refers to himself as one. Luke, his side kick, said it twice.
Philippians 3:If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I HAVE MORE, 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, FAULTLESS.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage," (BUT I HAD TO TELL YOU ABOUT THEM)
2 Cor 5 I do not think I am IN THE LEAST to those “super-apostles.” (THIS WOULD BE PETER,JAMES and JOHN from whom he said he learned nothing and were "reputed to be pillars)] 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me TO LOWER MYSELF in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?
2 Cor 11:18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I TOO WILL BOAST (. 19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that! (Even though in other places he wanted to "cut the ground out from under them," and "Hoped they cut their dicks off in circumcising)
Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I AM MORE I have worked MUCH HARDER, been in prison MORE FREQUENTLY, been flogged, MORE SEVERELY, (There must be degrees of flogging) and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?
30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness."
All in all, Paul tends to talk like Dave Pack at times boasting of his credentials and trials to show how humble he is. He had a temper and hated being considered a Johnny Come Lately. The Ephesian Church in Revelation did catch on to him however and kicked out those who claimed to be Apostles but were not. (Long story)
So yes, evidently it is very possible to be humble by telling everyone how humble you are
3:24
What you say is simply not true.
The list of happiest nations on earth most pleasurable to live is led by 10 nations where almost nobody believes in a God.
I would agree with you that these nations in the past were the birthplace of protestantism. But their falling away of professing religion was not followed by rampant murdering.
The only mistake they made is allowing american culture pollute their quest for short term economic gain with 3 month reporting and bonusses for selling financial crap. And allowing in many believers from muslim countries.
The communists failed, not because hating religion, since everyone is in awe of the chinese rise, but because of denying innovation through individual freedom and ANY god must be an agile working god through sprints, feedbackloops, improvements and crreativity as proven by evolution.
The real barbarians as of late have operated under a cloak of religion.
If one claims, that these people are not truly religious, than what is? The millions of millenials working toward sustainable energy and waste solutions or smart cities as the 4th industrial revolution requires of them as a moral standard to improve the world from Gods eternal headquarters on the West Coast? (silicon valley)
Of course there is a higher Code behind the code.
Nck
Aethesists are seeking a world without god. They will get what they ask for.
Using someone boasting as an example of being humble seems to imply you don't know what humility is.
Anonymous said...
Is it possible to be humble while telling others how humble you are?
You better hope so...
let's not forget Jesus saying "Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, FOR I AM GENTLE AND HUMBLE OF HEART, and you will find rest for your souls.
Exactly anon 3:24. To be a true believer within the COG movement is slowly but surely becoming dangerous ground too.
You have to swim against the majority both in society and the churches of God.
False allegations and straw men are set up everywhere. True believers are not considered to be happy, pleasant or honest. To tell the truth is to unleash hatred upon yourself. Believers are falsely accused of theft and all sorts of evil when they have done nothing of the sort.
Jesus Christ warned of perilous times. It will get worse.
What minister hasn't lived a privileged, entitled life. They are treated with kid gloves and regarded as royalty by members. All my ministers had gyrated to bully perks such as dominating conversations, demanding others don't disagree with them, belittling those who do, being intolerant, etc. I always felt I was in the presence of a teenager when I had dealings with ministers. I've seen this in work bosses, but to a lesser degree.
7.24 AM
Amen. I once complained to my minister about abusive church members. I even toned down my complaint. The result? A slanderous accusation that resulted in members being afraid to be seen next to me, least it harm their social standing.
Did you ever have a minister walk up to you, and ask you to pull his index finger? I had a boss who used to do that!
BB
Dennis C. Diehl, you blew a great opportunity to enlighten John S. Spong, the author of the book called Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism.
Maybe you can still help him. Send him old WCG booklets like The Plain Truth about Christmas, The Plain Truth about Easter, The Crucifixion Was Not On Friday, The Resurrection Was Not On Sunday, Pagan Holdiays--or God's Holy Days--Which?, etc. He probably never knew about these things.
Maybe you can still save him even if you yourself seem to be lost.
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