It is so comforting to know that God has been working behind the scenes to make Bob Thiel the greatest COG leader the church has ever seen in its entire history and who is behind the most superfantabulous COG to ever exist! Our God is an awesome God!
Anyway, the Great Bwana to Africa and 299 Caucasians has a new article up trying to prove that his church and that he could possibly be the end-time Elijah and one of the two witless witnesses. Sadly, Thiel is just one more in a long line of men (and a couple women) down through the last 80 years of the Church of God movement that has claimed such mantles. Like all the others before him, he is not Elijah and not one of the two witless witnesses. Besides, Ron and Laura Weinland have already claimed that honor.
The Great Bwana and the official true dreamer of the Church of God has this to say:
Although people like the discredited Ron Weinland and David Pack have claimed to be ‘Elijah,’ neither of them are.
Yet, the Bible does show that there will be an ‘Elijah’ who is alive before Jesus returns and that it is likely that he will be one of the two witnesses. And as Jesus is likely to return within the next couple of decades, it is reasonable to consider that he must be alive today.
Could he be one who has restored information on church history, doctrine, prophecy, and the reason that God created anything? Could he be one reaching people around the world with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God in nearly 100 different languages? Or has God not chosen to have him do much at this stage?
Well, that is the $64,000 question!
Those with a WCG background might find the following quote from Herbert W. Armstrong of some assistance here as he wrote:
I have been asked “Are you the Elijah?” And I say “No.” (Armstrong, Herbert W. Congress of Leading Ministers Hears Defined and Reemphasized Spiritual Organization of Church. Worldwide News, March 6, 1981, p. 10)
Never fear though, the Great Bwana is setting us to know just who might be the end-time Elijah and one of the two witless witnesses:
HWA, himself, wrote:
Jesus shall come, SOON NOW, to RESTORE ALL THINGS! He did NOT restore all things when he first came. John the Baptist did not “restore all things.” But the one who was to “restore all things” just before the “day of the Lord” and preparing the way for Christ’s second coming, was YET to come, in the future, as Jesus said. Now what are the “all things” to be RESTORED? “Restitution” means restore to a former state or condition (Armstrong HW. Brethren & Co-Worker Letter, August 24, 1982).
Note that HWA states ONE (Elijah) comes just before the day of the Lord—an event that still has not occurred, hence some additional restoration beyond what HWA did is needed–and this has been happening in the Continuing Church of God. CCOG has restored more than any COG in the 21st century and under the human leadership of Bob Thiel it continues to do so. In time, God will make the final Elijah clear to all willing to see (this is NOT saying that he MUST be Bob Thiel–but we believe it will be a leader in CCOG).
The Great Bwana then trots out Herbert Armstrong, again...
Furthermore, it should be noted that a careful reading of another one of HWA’s articles supports the idea that the Philadelphia era will need to have something else be restored. HWA wrote:
This very WORK OF GOD for our day is foretold in the prophecy of Revelation 3:7-13. But there it is revealed that we, today, are a people of but little strength – little power (verse 8)! – within ourselves though we have faithfully KEPT GOD’S WORD! The impact of this WORK OF GOD today is going out only through the power of God! Are you having your part in this very WORK OF GOD? But – let’s face it! – WE DO NOT HAVE WITHIN OURSELVES, AS GOD’S INSTRUMENTS FOR HIS WORK TODAY, ANYWHERE NEAR THE POWER OF GOD THAT ACTIVATED THAT ORIGINAL FIRST-CENTURY CHURCH! For that very reason, the living Christ says (verse 8), He has opened to us the gigantic door of MASS COMMUNICATION! The magnified power of the microphone and the printing press. Yet that is only physical, mechanical power! The REAL POWER that makes God’s Work vital and alive is the Holy Spirit of God! (Armstrong HW. Christians Have Lost Their POWER! Plain Truth, Jun 1958).
The Greek word translated as strength, dunamis, which HWA refers to as power, is the same Greek word that is normally translated as ‘miracle’ or ‘miracles’. Thus, Revelation 3:8 shows that the Philadelphia Church will have some type of miracles, and although I agree with HWA’s position that the initial power/miracle had to do with electronic media, I also agree with him that the old WCG did not have, “ANYWHERE NEAR THE POWER OF GOD THAT ACTIVATED THAT ORIGINAL FIRST-CENTURY CHURCH.” Thus, HWA acknowledged, howbeit indirectly, that the power of God had not been fully restored to his WCG. And it should be noted that dreams and gifts of prophecy were given to the first-century church (Acts 2:17-18) and thus, according to his own writing, there should be these type of occurrences at the end. One group in the 21st century has that (see Dreams, the Bible, the Radio Church of God, and the ContinuingChurch of God and How To Determine If Someone is a True Prophet of God).
A failed prophet quoting another failed prophet. Two wrongs do not make Bwana Bob right.
The Great Bwana concludes while whining once again like a third-grade school girl that COG members continue to ignore him. Everyone's salvation is at stake for failing to acknowledge Bwana Bob as the Chosen One, the leader of the most incredible COG in human history, and that he is the most educated leader that has ever led any COG since Elijah himself walked the earth.
The Elijah’s restoring of “all things” means that he is to be restoring information that the true Church of God once understood, but later must have lost or misunderstood.
The problem is that just as many would not hear Elijah’s or John the Baptist’s messages, relatively few will pay much attention to the end time Elijah as well.
32 comments:
Herbert and Bob don’t understand. Herbert says: “But the one who was to “restore all things” just before the “day of the Lord” and preparing the way for Christ’s second coming, was YET to come, in the future, as Jesus said.” Where did Jesus say that? Mat 17:11 KJV: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Herbert missed-spoke. Bob’s missing-store. John the Baptist restored. The next restoration is after Jesus comes back to earth: Acts 3:21: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things………..
Wow…there we are then……..Dr Rabbi Bob Squarepants Elijah Amos Preacher Prophet (have I missed anything out?) Thiel……….
Possibly one of the two witnesses……..‘That Prophet’ must be spitting tacks now that he is not the’One’ but Bobby boy is.
When are ya packing for Jerusalem Bob. How’s your Hebrew?
Circumcised?
Never a dull moment in Armstrongism is there…………
“Is Crackpot Prophet The Modern Day Elijah and One of the Two Witless Witnesses?”
Nope! Bob is just a self-appointed false prophet. See the list below. Bob is at the bottom of the list. Print this list and post it on your refrigerator if you have trouble remembering. Give copies of this list to your friends who need to be warned about the evils that lurk on the so-called COG scene.
THE FALSE PROPHETS
The Satan-sent, Satan-directed false prophets:
Gerald R. Flurry: From drunken runt to Malachi's Mess. plagiarist, “new commission” gospel perverter, identity thief, That (False) Prophet, editor and changer of HWA's old writings, family wrecker, Irish dancing dunce, and arrogant old runt with a new throne stone.
David C. Pack: Bait & Switch scammer, “common” thief, false apostle, false Joshua, false Elijah, false That Prophet, false messiah, and unstable vomiting mess. Rants and raves and yells and spits and makes up endless “proofs” and prophetic date guesses and yet still gets everything all wrong.
The self-appointed false prophets:
Ronald E. Weinland: False witness, prophetic fantasy fiction writer, ex-con, unfunny clown.
Robert J. Thiel: False prophet, fascinated by demons, pagans, pagan prophecies, and Fake News on television. Seems a bit retarded.
If HWA told people he was NOT the "end-time Elijah" in 1981, why did Gerald Waterhouse keep calling him that in 1984?
"The modern-day Moses! The modern-day Elijah!! The modern-day Zerubbabel!!!" Mr. Waterhouse kept saying.
Gerald Waterhouse had mental health issues, besides sexual identity issues.
Bob certainly has been putting himself in the spotlight. Is this his vain attempt to attract potential members, or just get attention?
Well, he certainly got attention from Banned! As for attracting potential members, he seems to be keeping CCOG membership steady with no significant growth...
From the post, "Yet, the Bible does show that there will be an ‘Elijah’ who is alive before Jesus returns and that it is likely that he will be one of the two witnesses. And as Jesus is likely to return within the next couple of decades, it is reasonable to consider that he must be alive today."
Augustine believed that there would be a second Elijah. From Jesus words in the NT, it is clear that John the Baptist was the first instantiation of Elijah. Augustine saw a second Elijah coming before the Parousia. Interestingly, Augustine thought that the second Elijah would really be Elijah himself. You can understand from this that this issue has been kicked around for a long time in the Christian Movement.
But there is an exegetical problem. The august figure of Elijah is not mentioned anywhere in the Book of Revelation which is the handbook on the Eschaton. This Splinterist preacher slips in the notion that "it is likely that he (Elijah) will be one of the two witnesses."
This is a big issue that cannot just be casually mentioned and then passed over. It is deserving of, indeed requires, a thorough exegesis.
If the two witnesses are in the role of the prominent Elijah then why did John of Patmos not say so. Or, if you will, why was John not inspired to say so? And what about restoring all things? Did John the Baptist restore all things?
Of course, I have a theory. There is a second mention of Elijah in some of the Gospels. This is in the Transfiguration on the mount. Where Moses and Elijah (the real Elijah) spoke to Jesus about "his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem." And Jesus' sacrifice was the pathway that leads to the restoration of all things. I believe Elijah completed his mission of preceding the Christ at this point and, hence, he makes no appearance in the Book of Revelation which describes in its latter chapters the Eschaton. If this theory is true then those who claim to be Elijah in Splinterdom are talking malarkey. So if they want to build any pew cred, they need to shoot down this theory.
At least I have a theory that is rooted in exegesis. Many of the apocalyptic Millerite preachers who claim to be Elijah don't have even that.
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“I have been asked 'Are you the Elijah?' And I say 'No.' (Armstrong, Herbert W. Congress of Leading Ministers Hears Defined and Reemphasized Spiritual Organization of Church. Worldwide News, March 6, 1981, p. 10)”
Maybe Bob Thiel's short attention span, or intellectual dishonesty, kept him from reading, or quoting, the whole article.
Later in that very same article, Herbert W. Armstrong said the following and went on to suggest that he was the Elijah who had restored all things:
“I'm going to say something to you now that I would not have said five or six years ago under any circumstances. I don't go out trying to fulfill prophecy. But Jesus said, by their fruits you know. And sometimes you look back on fruits and you can tell some things you couldn't tell in advance before.”
Everyone in the Worldwide Church of God at the time seemed to believe that Herbert W. Armstrong was the Elijah, but nowadays all sorts of rinky-dink scoundrels are trying to make themselves out to be the Elijah.
The Great Bwana, Bob Thiel, prophet falsely so-called, wrote:
"...Note that HWA states ONE (Elijah) comes just before the day of the Lord—an event that still has not occurred, hence some additional restoration beyond what HWA did is needed..."
No, no additional restoration is needed. Jesus identified that John the Baptist was that one to come in the spirit/power of Elijah, but they, like this prophet falsely so-called, knew not that John the Baptist was "the man!"
Matthew 17:12 "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."
Bob Thiel, professing prophet, prophet falsely so-called, read and believe that Christ's disciples did "get the point" that John the Baptist was "the man!"
:13 "Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."
Does "Duh" mean anything to this prophet, Bob Thiel, falsely so-called?
Has the Day of the LORD come yet? No! Duh!
Did John the Baptist come in the spirit/power of Elijah? Yes! Duh!
This Great Bwana continues striving to be something he is NOT! This Great Bwana is continuing to put down John the Baptist, while striving to continue to exalt himSELF!
This Great "Banana" further goes on with this following lie about John the Baptist:
"...The problem is that just as many would not hear Elijah’s or John the Baptist’s messages, relatively few will pay much attention to the end time Elijah as well..."
Who would not hear John the Baptist's messages? Relatively few WHO?
Bobby makes God out to be an idiot and a waster, but God, our Father, is no such thing! This great Bwana is guilty of what he accuses John the Baptist and Elijah of. Who really wants to hear the great Bwana's messages? Nobody, well, relatively few, very few and that's it!
Neither Elijah nor John the Baptist needed to find others to come and listen to them. Look at John the Baptist as an example:
Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
So what?
The prophet falsely so-called said: "...The problem is that just as many would not hear Elijah’s or John the Baptist’s messages, relatively few will pay much attention to the end time Elijah as well..."
What did God inspire to be written?
Matthew 3:5 "Then went out to him Jerusalem,..."
Just peeps from Jerusalem, prophet falsely so-called? No, duh!
"...and all Judaea,..."
Just peeps from Jerusalem, and all Judaea, prophet falsely so-called? No, duh!
"...and all the region round about Jordan,"
Should we believe this prophet falsely so-called? No, duh! And the peeps got the message John was preaching!
:6 "And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins."
Everyone of those individuals drawn to John the Baptist will be God's witnesses, at that time perhaps called "the ancient ones," and will eventually awake in a resurrection, but could they all be witnesses to prove the great Bwana's mind was one full of vanity about himSELF, and full of foolishness regarding God's true prophets?
Time will tell...
John
Addendum:
My theory about Elijah, mentioned earlier, is maybe not unique in all its aspects. Some parts of it can be found in the SDA journal titled "Ministry Magazine: International Journal for Pastors" in the article "What Happened to Elijah?"
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1967/02/what-happened-to-elijah
This article contains a critique of Herman Hoeh's idea that what was seen at the Transfiguration was only a "vision." Interestingly, the author identifies Hoeh as a member of the Church of God, Seventh Day. My guess is that this is how the SDAs categorized the WCG - a subunit of the CoG, 7th Day. In the Millerite realm, WCG was a kind of newphew organization to the SDAs. They must of found the Armstrongist claim to be the one and only true church to be droll given its commonplace Millerite roots.
Hoeh's argument that Moses and Elijah were only hallucinations was advanced as a defense of the unprovable idea of Soul Sleep. It is unfortunate that this very significant event has been reduced by Armstrongists to an issue of Soul Sleep. In so doing, they have missed the actual significance of this appearance of Elijah which is a fulfillment of prophecy.
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HWA was universally regarded in his church as the end time Elijah. I recall sermons to that effect, and members in their service conversations affirming this. Any denial by used-car-salesman, habitual liar HWA is just a legal and moral escape hatch if pressed on the issue.
There were early traditions that in the end time both Moses and Elijah would appear. This is based on Elijah's death was never recorded, and although Moses' death was recorded, his body disappeared. Enoch's death wasn't recorded either, but the tradition went with Moses and Elijah, as in the Transfiguration.
Is Bob more of an Elijah or a Moses?
"Brethren, has ANYONE ELSE done it?"
Mal 4:4-6 "Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of YHVH. AND he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
Notice that v6 starts with a conjunction vav translated 'AND' which identifies the verse as part of v5. (Definition of conjunction from Merriam-Webster, 'occurrence together in time or space'). This condition/prophecy is still in the future.
John the Baptist was not Elijah. He did not accomplish v6, which is concurrent with v5. He even denied he was Elijah (Jn 1:21).
Mk 9:13 But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him.
Written where? Click here for all occurrences of 'Elijah' in Tanakh (71 times). The prophecy of Mal 4 does not indicate anything bad happening to Elijah. It indicates he will be successful in restoring harmony among the people - 'turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers'.
Who is the bigger crackpot? Bob, or the apostle John who wrote about the two witnesses that are long overdue and breath fire and all that other ridiculous stuff?
Rumor has it that PCG ministers have been in sexual pursuit of several female students at Armstrong college. Perhaps we need an article to investigate this.
When Gerald Flurry dies (hopefully soon) Bob can assume the mantle of Chief Windbag.
He already is, 8:09! Haven't you ever heard the flatulent noises which accompany his videos?
12.59 PM
Are you therefore saying that HWA was the Elijah? How could he have turned hearts since justice and rights was a joke while he was in charge?
Those who insist that HWA was the Elijah are forcing a square peg into a round hole. And expect others to blindly believe whatever they say.
"They [Adventists] must of found the Armstrongist claim to be the one and only true church to be droll given its commonplace Millerite roots"
Too true. Too funny.
Anonymous 12:59
"He (John the Baptist) even denied he was Elijah"
He wasn't Elijah. And he was Elijah. He was not the exact person known to be Elijah but he came in the spirit of Elijah. I think we would have to be there for the conversation containing this denial to understand why John the Baptist responded as he did. Context matters. My guess is that his interrogators were not just seeking illumination but were bent on destruction.
"... and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him. Written where?"
What exactly are you looking for? Jezebel was killing off the prophets and she had people out looking for Elijah. There are other instances of persecution. Enough to give Elijah the proverial "Elijah Complex" - that he stood by himself against overwhelming odds.
Malachi 4 does not say anything bad will happend to Elijah nor does it say anything good will happen to Elijah. It is inconclusive on that topic. I agree that John the Baptist did not accomplish the prophesied restoration. He initiated it but it is still ongoing. I believe that language is a reference to the Apokatastasis.
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Anon asked on 10/6 @4:53am, 'Are you therefore saying that HWA was the Elijah?'
No. Read what I wrote.
Neo wrote on 10/6 @6:51am, 'He wasn't Elijah. And he was Elijah. He was not the exact person known to be Elijah but he came in the spirit of Elijah.'
He could not claim he comes even in the spirit of Elijah because of Mal 4:6. Anyone can easily make bold claims of himself, or someone else, being Elijah, or coming in the spirit of Elijah; but easily fails in Mal 4:6. In addition, Mal 4:5 mentions 'the great and dreadful day of YHVH". V5 and V6 are one prophecy. I'm not aware that the Day of YHVH has already occurred. The fulfillment of Mal 4:5-6 is still in the future and verifiable.
How did John respond to the question of who he is? In Jn 1:23, he paraphrased and twisted Isa 40:3.
Isa 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of YHVH; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. ..."
Instead of saying 'The voice of one ...', he changed it to 'I am the voice of one ...'. Click on the interlinear of Jn 1:23 to see that the 'I am' is from the Greek Ego which Strong's G1473) describes as - 'I (only expressed when emphatic)'.
John didn't even dare to mention the rest of the prophecy of Isa 40:3 ...
Isa 40:4-5 "... Every valley shall be exalted and every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight and the rough places smooth; the glory of YHVH shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of YHVH has spoken.”
Was the glory of YHVH revealed then? Did all flesh see it together? How about every valley being exalted and every mountain brought low?
Nearly 4 decades after the crucifixion, the 2nd Temple was destroyed and 'the glory of YHVH departed from the threshold of the temple' (Eze 10:18).
Neo wrote, "... and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him. Written where?" What exactly are you looking for?
Was Elijah imprisoned? I don't recall he was, or that 'they did to him whatever they wished' even to the point of being beheaded. If you know the verse in Tanakh where it says that he was imprisoned, please cite the verse.
Neo wrote, There are other instances of persecution. Enough to give Elijah the proverial "Elijah Complex" - that he stood by himself against overwhelming odds.
Persecution comes with being a prophet. Jeremiah was in prison/dungeon for many days (Jer 37:16, 38:6). Daniel was in captivity and presumably made into a eunuch.
Didn't John the Baptist have disciples?
Elijah thought that he was the only prophet remaining (1 Ki 19:10) but YHVH told him that there are 7000 in Israel whose knees have not bowed to Baal (1 Ki 19:18). Prophets are humans who can make mistakes. Nathan also made an error when he thought that it was YHVH's will for David to build the Temple (2 Sam 7:1-3), only to be told otherwise in the night (2 Sam 7:4-17).
Neo wrote, I agree that John the Baptist did not accomplish the prophesied restoration.
Then, he simply was not Elijah, not even coming in the spirit of Elijah.
Herb the advertising blurb was not Elijah. The truth about BI has been explained by a Jewish historian on Myth Vision Podcast.
John the Baptist to be resurrected at Christ's return? Hmmmmm.......
Gerald Waterhouse use to speculate that the two witnesses were the Armstrongs. Are there still Armstrongites out there who believe Herbert W. and son Garner Ted will be resurrected and reunited together as the two witnesses of the Book of Revelation? Do HWA followers still trek out to HWA's gravesite annually on the anniversary of his death every January 16 believing/expecting he will be resurrected?
Richard
12.05 PM
I did read, and re read what you wrote, and still ask the same question.
Stating your point or conclusion/s is central to proper writing or public speaking.
Anon 10/6 @7:41pm,
Still my answer is no.
This is what I wrote on 10/5 @12:05pm, This condition/prophecy is still in the future. John the Baptist was not Elijah. He did not accomplish v6, which is concurrent with v5. He even denied he was Elijah (Jn 1:21).
The above was my point. Orthodox Jews would say the same thing. I'm sure you won't ask them - 'Are you therefore saying that HWA was the Elijah?'
My point may be similar with HWA but it's not the same. I'm not interested in HWA's other points. (Tanakh is the only Scripture for me. I do not consider Oral Law nor NT as Scripture.)
I'm objecting and questioning the NT's claim (and others here) that John was the Elijah to come. I even asked about Mk 9:13's source - 'Written where?'
If you haven't, you can read my comment today @12:13pm.
10.13 PM
John the Baptist denied that he was the returned Elijah of Malachi 4 which some Jews expected. Rather John said he was the forerunner of Isaiah 40. Christ in Matthew 11:14 called John the "Elijah who is to come."
In Luke 1:17 John is described as coming in the spirit and power of Elijah.
The above is the modern day Christian viewpoint. Considering the nature of this blog, I do not consider my question of HWA being a Elijah unreasonable.
As to whether NT is scripture or not, a simply reality test is to ask God. He is no respector of persons and will answer the sincere questions of those who act on the understanding that they do have.
Bob is wasting too much time trying to convince people he is a prophet and the purest proponent of the Philadelphia remnant. A better use of his time would be following the advice of his critics: just for starters - it's not a big job to make an acceptable 'studio'; get some professional assistance with making decent videos; use better props than hold books and papers in front of the camera; stick to a topic as much as possible; stick to basic 'Great Commission' teaching to make disciples; clean up his COGwriter site by not havingone overly long article after another with h u g e reference lists...
Lately, Bobs been delving into some very bizarre sources. Internet tabloids and neoNazi literature. I'm not sure why, maybe he ran out of random prophecies to read things into.
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