Let's Pull Those Genes Down for the True Answer
Romans 1: 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
...and every other scripture he can think of
Properly read, one can conclude that the penalty for not retaining the "knowledge of God", was God giving them over to a depraved mind. So, their depravity and inability to overcome can seem to be the doing of the Deity.
However,
The Late Episcopal Priest John Spong suspects the Apostle who wrote Romans might be struggling himself with being a very conflicted gay man in First Century Palestine
Romans 7: 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Of course, Paul does not share what that heavy and unsolvable problem was just as he dithers over what the "thorn in the flesh" God gave him could have been.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[b] a slave to the law of sin.
For Bishop Spong's original chapter on this issue and from "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalim" see:
https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/2004/04/was-the-apostle-paul-gay.aspx
If really interested in a deeper historical view and cultural setting for the topic, as well as the dilemma the Apostle Paul may have faced ...
17 comments:
Why is it always the more effeminate men in the COG that have to yank the gay chain all the time?
Bob Thiel loves to blame the gays for everything and claims they are bringing about the destruction of the U.S. Yet he never opens his pathetic mouth and says anything about all of the "non-Israelite" nations that allow gay marriage or have in place anti-discrimination laws. I much prefer my gay neighbors to most COG members I've dealt with over the decades. They have been great with my children and helped take care of my elderly mother when we went on vacation. I also met them at church where they have a deep love of Christ and serve the members. How many COG members do that? Does Bob Thiel do that? No!
Wow! Bob should really stay away from that topic. Does he really have no idea of how he comes across to viewers? It's bad enough that he shows no understanding of what he is reading, but it's worse that he reads it with his odd vocal affectations and his flouncing, bouncing arms. Cringeworthy.
So, we’re now getting desperate to overturn the Bible, are we?
Just remember, it has been around thousands of years before a former disgruntled minister showed up, and will still be around after folks of our puny 100, or less years are gone.
Sorry Dennis, this doesn’t wash.
Besides, who is the guy you quote compared to the Scriptures. I’ve read his human nonsense. And, that’s all its worth, nonsense.
Bob Thiel is not a prophet, never will be, so he doesn’t run my life. Why should he ron yours?
I admired the late John Shelby Spong, but I am in disagreement with his theory on the Apostle Paul being a "homo".
Identical twins do not always share the same sexual orientations, even though they share identical genes.
However, where there are identical twins , where one of them is homosexual, the odds that the other one is increases
in likelihood by a far greater likelihood than chance.
Obviously, the nature vs. nurture balance plays a huge part in this, and is a complex subjective indeed. It is important
to remember that we are indeed free moral agents, and do possess free will, and non of us are compelled to always have to "turn out" a certain way, without any personal say so over the issue.
All Imma say about this topic is: go tell a straight woman she has a "natural use" for a man, and see how long you survive.
As anyone who has watched one of Bob's videos knows, he needs work on his presentation skills. Was Bob born with an incoherent speaking gene?
To his credit, in Bob's most recent sermon, he was satisfactory, as long as he followed the script of the late Richard Close. I think his coherence is proportional to preparation - but this is only my hypothesis. A test would be his Spokesman's Club performance: I'm supposing satisfactory on delivering prepared speeches, but poor on Impromptu and Table Topics.
The argument over the relative roles of nature vs nurture in determining sexual orientation continues. The fact that it is NOT a conscious decision/choice should be self-evident to all of us. We need only to ask the heterosexuals among us if they ever had to decide whether pecs were more attractive than breasts to underscore the truth of this.
As for the Apostle Paul, it is pure speculation as to whether or not he was gay - maybe/maybe not. However, Paul's personal struggle with some issue is evident from the scriptures which Dennis quoted from the seventh chapter of his letter to the Romans. Whatever caused this turmoil/struggle/pain, it was the spiritual equivalent of ANY moral issue which each of us must confront in our own lives (like fidelity, homosexuality, addiction, truthfulness, anger, etc.). I have serious reservations about the quality of anyone's Christianity who feels anything other than compassion for someone who is experiencing such inner turmoil (and Almighty God is ALWAYS more compassionate than we are)!
It's good to know that I'm not the only one to suspect that Paul may have struggled with homosexual tendencies.
Bob would make a perfect drag queen. He could make his outfit out of his pretty pink curtains, ala Carol Burnette.
Miller Jones noted: "As for the Apostle Paul, it is pure speculation as to whether or not he was gay - maybe/maybe not. However, Paul's personal struggle with some issue is evident from the scriptures which Dennis quoted from the seventh chapter of his letter to the Romans. Whatever caused this turmoil/struggle/pain, it was the spiritual equivalent of ANY moral issue which each of us must confront in our own lives (like fidelity, homosexuality, addiction, truthfulness, anger, etc.)."
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I could not agree more. Paul's admission of the depth of his struggle with whatever it was was deeply honest and would ring a bell to with any real human being who has ever struggled with any issue. His not saying what it was is also very telling in itself as whatever it was, perhaps he just could not come to terms with actually writing it down. He documented the struggle, not the topic and assigned the cause to his perception and conceptin of "sin".
For all my person suspicion about Paul's role and conflicts with the Jerusalem Apostles and his his role as author of Christianity etc, I have always found this admission on his part of "the things that I do..." to be profoundly honest and human.
The other, somewhat surprising example of a Paul that perhaps has been forced to stop and look at his own life and issues is found in I Corinthians 13. Though I have the "gift of prophecy and have not love..." A beautiful portion of scripture and one which, at times, I wondered if a Paul was even capable of writing and perhaps someone else did and inserted it in the text of I Corinthians. I believe he wrote it in a moment of more clarity than his typical bluster and warnings about the imminent return of Jesus etc, almost like Dave Pack is doing today. Of course, he was just as mistaken about that and had to face that too in the end.
Paul, a man who said, "I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified." I Cor 9:27, was a disciplined and conflicted man.
Is Bob aware that Zechariah 13:3 instructs to put to death anyone who falsely claims that a prophesy is from God? Yet he goes even further by claiming that he is a prophet sent by God.
What's the matter with these fruitcakes? Where's their fear of God?
Bob is a Non-Profit Non-Prophet
The idea that Paul was gay is simply rank speculation. Absent any real evidence, we could speculate that anyone is gay. Just think for a moment. James and Peter did not mention Paul having gay proclivities even though they were originally standoffish about some of his ideas including grace and were faithful to Old Testament concepts - concepts that are decidedly anti-gay.
But if the atheist brother wants to lay the topic on the table that should be fine.
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NeoT. I have a tendency to read between the lines, as do others of course. It can only lead to speculation based on beliefs shared and personal struggles mentioned without definition. Paul had a habit of sharing grand things but not telling one what the specific outcome or issue was.
Paul saw things in the third heaven no man can see or hear - Don't ask
Paul had a thorn in the flesh-Don't ask
Paul did what he hated doing-Don't ask
Paul beat and kept himself in subjection lest after preaching to others he mucked up-Don't ask
His views on marriage as just to avoid fornication and it being better to be like him etc doesn't help.
Of course, it matters not a bit and falls into the category of "Since men aren't really born of virgins, what were Jesus's birth circumstances?" Bastard? Joseph's Son? Pantera? or when he pestered mom too much she just said "God is your father!" and he went with that. :)
I knew AC faculty members who were gay and no one mentioned that either when they fell out. I had gay faculty members as clients from Bob Jones University, as well as students. No one one either knew or cared. I'd say didn't know because at BJU, out you would go big time save for the lawsuit that might follow.
PS I had one gay client who, when traveling, would set up a "counseling" appointment with a local priest and from which he would find his gay partners in the areas he traveled to. "Gay proclivities" can be well masked, denied even when suspected.
I just had lunch with an AC attendee who was confronted by a couple of well-known faculty ministers. They asked him outright. He was not and is not. He just "seemed gay" to these well-known types. When he said no and had a regular girlfriend, which proves nothing I know, he was asked if he believed that "we are God's ministers" which I assume meant that he might not be wise to question their almighty discernment, which was wrong.
Dennis:
This issue of Paul possibly being gay seems poorly supported by scripture. Those scriptures used to buttress the claim also have a heterosexual interpretation. And the heterosexual view is the predominant one. The idea that he was normal but a little different has better support, I think. Paul was also heavily influenced in his thinking by his belief that the Parousia was imminent. For instance, he may have given marriage short shrift because he expected such an issue to be overtaken by end time events. In fact, the NT in general does not have much of a discussion of the nuclear family. We know nothing of what happened to Joseph, for instance. And Jesus stated that his followers were his true family.
I look on Paul as a great champion of Christianity as it pertained to the Gentiles. Since I am a Gentile, I resonate. But he does seem somewhat idiosyncratic. In particular, he seems a little left-brain. Peter apparently did not like his writing. But then Paul and I come from two different cultures and two different eras and misperceptions can happen.
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