Herbert Armstrong’s Feast of Tabernacles
Lonnie Hendrix
In his infamous booklet, Pagan Holidays or God’s Holy Days? Herbert Armstrong declared that the Feast of Tabernacles of Leviticus 23 represented the Millenium. He wrote: “Here are pictured those final culminating events in God's great plan: after Christ has died for our sins to redeem mankind-after He has sent us the Holy Spirit and picked out a people for His Name to become kings and priests through the thousand years-after His glorious Second Coming-after He has finally restored the redeemed by placing all the sins upon the head of Satan, their real author, and separating both him and the sins from the presence of God and His people, thus finally perfecting the at-one-ment, making us finally joined in one-then we are ready for that final series of events, the commencement of the ‘Marriage of the Lamb,’ the actual making of the New Covenant, the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth and the reaping of the great harvest of souls for a thousand years. This festival is the picture of the Millennium!”
However, an objective review of the Scriptural evidence which is available to us reveals a very different meaning for this festival from the one advocated by Mr. Armstrong. Indeed, from a Christian perspective, the festival symbolizes Jesus Christ tabernacling in human form – inhabiting the same temporary shell which all humans have inhabited – in order to make a permanent and eternal home possible for us someday! As we shall see, for Christians, this festival pictures the perfect contrast between that which is transient and terrestrial and that which is eternal and heavenly.
In Torah, the Israelites were instructed to construct booths, or temporary shelters, to live in for the duration of the festival (Leviticus 23:40-42). In this connection, it is interesting to note that Jesus Christ "tabernacled" in the flesh for a little while. We read in the Gospel of John that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." (John 1:14) Indeed, this tabernacling in the flesh was necessary for Christ to suffer the affliction and death that would result in our atonement/reconciliation to God!
This is made very plain in the epistle to the Hebrews. We read there: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (2:9-10) And, a little later, we read: "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." (Verse 14)
That Christ did this for US is at the very heart of the Gospel message! Although it is unpleasant to contemplate, each one of us has an appointment with death. (Hebrews 9:27) Somewhere in the back of our minds, all of us understand that this life that we are currently enjoying is temporary – it will not last forever (we are subject to time and chance). Paul once told the saints at Corinth, “that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.” (I Corinthians 15:50) He went on to tell them that “our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.” (I Corinthians 15:53)
Sometime later, Paul wrote another letter to the Corinthians. He told them that the light of Christ was shining in their hearts, but he described that treasure as residing in fragile clay jars. (II Corinthians 4:7) He talked about how Christians must face many trials and perils because of their association with Jesus Christ, but that this had resulted in them having the hope of eternal life. (II Corinthians 4:8-15) He continued: “That is why we never give up. Though our bodies are dying, our spirits are being renewed every day. For our present troubles are small AND WON’T LAST VERY LONG. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.” (II Corinthians 4:16-18)
In other words, Paul understood that Christians are currently living in temporary shelters (human bodies), and that they are looking forward to the time when they will be living in a permanent home (spiritual bodies). In his second letter to the saints at Corinth, we read: “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” (II Corinthians 5:1-4, KJV)
Peter also understood this concept. In addressing the saints toward the close of his ministry, he wanted to remind them about the truths which he had previously conveyed to them. He wrote: “Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.” (II Peter 1:13-14, KJV) Peter understood that this life is not permanent, and that he was going to die. He also knew that his present body could not inherit the Kingdom of God, and that he would have to shed that body and receive a new one in the resurrection.
As strangers and pilgrims in this world, Christians are looking to exchange a temporary home for a more permanent one (one that God has provided for us). Hence, for us, this is an important component of the symbolism of this Old Testament Festival.
Moreover, perhaps the most important component of this symbolism has to do with our relationship with Christ and Almighty God – the fact that Christ tabernacled with us in the past and will do so again someday with the Father! We read in the Gospel According to John that the “Word was made flesh and dwelt <tabernacled> among us.” – John 1:14, KJV Then, at the conclusion of all things, we are told in the book of Revelation: “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” - Revelation 21:1-3 I don’t know about you, but I think that this symbolism beats Armstrong’s teachings on the subject by a mile!
Finally, in the seventh chapter of the Gospel of John, we have an account of Christ’s celebration of this festival. Interestingly, Christ’s message to the people on this occasion underscored the fact that his message and mission was from God (verses 16-19). He went on to tell his fellow attendees that they didn’t really understand Torah, and that their observance of it was superficial (verses 21-24). This, of course, made Jesus a very controversial figure, and the debate raged around him. As a consequence, he told them: “I will be with you only a little longer. Then I will return to the one who sent me. You will search for me but not find me. And you cannot go where I am going.” (Verses 33-34)
Then, on the last day – that great day of the feast, Jesus told them: “Anyone who is thirsty may come to me! Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’” Although he was then dwelling in the tabernacle of a human form, Christ declared himself to be the source of eternity! As I said in the most recent post on my blog: “This is the message of the Gospel, and the message of this festival: The transient and eternal Christ has made possible eternity for us transient folk of planet earth!”
49 comments:
From the Church of God International's website regarding the Feast of Tabernacles:
"This festival metaphorically illustrates the Millennium—the 1,000 years of Christ’s reign on earth. The true harvest of mankind can now take place. Without Satan—the original source of evil finally removed—all nations can now be brought to God. For 1,000 years, a Golden Age shall reign: happiness and peace shall be reality and worldwide salvation shall be possible. This harvest of people is far larger than the first as the larger fall harvest portrays in the agricultural cycle. The Millennium shall be the time when God sets His hand to save the world. It shall be a time of rebuilding the waste areas, and forging of a new modern society under God’s laws."
The envious non successful Christians challenging the FOT was to be expected. It's like the serpent telling Adam and Eve that they will not die if they eat the forbidden fruit.
Ignore these failed Christians, and enjoy the feast folks
Anonymous 1:09,
The post challenges the Armstrong Feast of Tabernacles, and we are NOT envious of that theology. Finally, God will determine who is a success or failure.
Incisive exposition from Miller Jones. Now my two cents.
The Bible nowhere connects the Sukkot or the Feast of Tabernacles to the Millennium. I would class that as extra-Biblical Neo-Millerite interpretation. It is a harvest festival with connections to the events of the Exodus as established in the OT. It looks back to the these events, the historical exodus and the annual harvest, but is there somewhere that the Bible explicitly describes what it looks forward to? Yes, there is:
“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17)
This scripture indicates that Jesus is substance of these foreshadowing OT observations – these events look forward to him. With this understanding, there is no need to create an interpretation that gratuitously connects the FoT to a future time period such as the Millennium. If you listen carefully to Armstrongists preachers who “preach the meaning” you will discover that they preach a description of Sukkot from the OT and they will preach scriptures that describe conditions after the coming of the Messiah but there will be no scriptures that integrate these texts with the Millenium described by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelation. The connecting logic is not present because the idea of Sukkot representing the Millenium is fabricated from whole cloth.
My guess is that it is not wrong to see the abundance of harvest at Sukkot foreshadowing a time of prosperity, though when John of Patmos writes about the 1,000-year period, he is writing about the governmental reign of the Anointed. It is statement about geopolitics and not prosperity. The prosperity is an inference. The preoccupation with the Millennium can displace the true substance of the FoT which is salvation in Jesus according to Paul in Colossians.
As a Christian and an ex-Armstrongite, I will not attend the Armstrongist FoT services. I have in the past thought that this would be a good way to see old friends. But attending these services is too close to partaking in the Armstrongist theology that underpins the Feast. In a sense, my presence would become a support element to a theology I do not believe in.
Armstrongist theology puts forth the FoT as a requirement for salvation. FoT observance is like a merit badge you must earn in the process of “qualifying” for the Kingdom of God. I cannot sit in a congregation full of people who believe they are there to earn salvation. The melancholy would be to great. Although I miss very much the community of people I knew when I was an Armstrongist.
Krischan
Lonnie, while I understand much of what you write, it seems to me you are making the same claims like HWA did, except it is on your own terms and what you want to believe.
There are plenty of unanswered questions concerning the cog teachings on the FOT, such as why 7 days to picture a 1,000 period? I've never heard that answered, and certainly not from scripture. The only 'command' given to Israel concerning this feast was to rejoice in memory of God delivering them from Egypt 'with a high hand', and remember how He protected them for 40 years before they were allowed into the promised land. In scripture this festival must take place in Jerusalem, except in this age the self-proclaimed apostle came up with another way of worshiping since he had the authority to do whatever.
Another unanswered question is ---- while prophecy clearly shows that ALL nations have to observe this festival during that 1,000 years ---- why would this type, (IF indeed these seven days picture that millennium), be commanded to be observed when the REAL thing is actually being lived?? Nevertheless, this will be preached for the next several days.
While one might think the 'church' would be fully focused on the calling, the opportunity to be born into the family of God and be a part of that first and 'better' resurrection, the focus every year, and ALL year, is on an expected 1,000 year of physical life that will be awesome. It will be preached that this is the kingdom of God, but it is not. Will be 'ruled' over by the kingdom of God which is spiritual, but what is so anticipated is a physical time. The NT teaches much about that goal of attaining that spiritual, eternal change and existence, and nothing about 1,000 years except in Revelation. Why 7 days? I don't see that as picturing a millennial period .... perhaps a day of judgement for 7,000 years, but that is only speculation. Maybe we don't need to understand much beyond the meaning of Pentecost.
Actually it's not Herbert Armstrongs Feast of Tabernacles, but God's (Leviticus 23). That's all.
You forget how the wcg would get kickbacks from the hotels at feast sites. Bet you didn't know that!
My speculation, 7:50 AM PDT, Sept 30, 2023: In less than an hour, 6000 years end at sunset Jerusalem time counting from day one of Genesis one. Have you packed, Pack? Of course I don't know but will in the future the time exactly of 6000 years.
The 3 feasts (only 3-Ex 23:14-16) picture the harvest, resurrection, of Jesus Christ, the firstfruits, and everybody else. It's so simple (!!!).
Erratum for 6:58
I wrote:
"The connecting LOGIC is not present because the idea of Sukkot representing the Millenium is fabricated from whole cloth."
I should have written:
"The connecting BIBLICAL EXEGESIS is not present because the idea of Sukkot representing the Millenium is fabricated from whole cloth."
There is a logic that Armstrongists use but it is not exegetically based. It is based on an interpretation made by HWA, ostensibly. I actually do not who came up with the idea of the holy days being all about End Time events. The Armstrongist view on the FoT seems to differ from Rupert's.
Krischan,
Yes! Jesus said that he came to FULFILL Torah and the Prophets (and Psalms). He and his apostles constantly used the Hebrew Bible as the focus of their teachings about HIM and what he was doing for us. And, as you pointed out, the epistle to the Colossians clearly states that Christ is the substance/reality of these festivals!
7:13,
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis and you pose some excellent questions for the ACOGs to answer. However, unlike Herbert's interpretation, the one offered here is derived from the statements offered by Christ and his apostles associated with the symbolism of temporary dwellings/tabernacles/booths as recorded in the Judeo-Christian canon of Scripture. Once again, this post is based on the premise that everything in Torah (including the festivals) points to Jesus Christ and his work.
7:23,
Herbert Armstrong's FOT doesn't look anything like the one described in the twenty-third chapter of Leviticus, and that's all!
James said, “ You forget how the wcg would get kickbacks from the hotels at feast sites. ”
Or that WCG used to cut a $5,000 check for ministers for the Feast and then allow them to turn around a deduct all of their Feast expenses as write-offs. While members struggled to make it to sites the ministry had life rather easy.
The main point of Col 2:16-17: only let the church, the body of Jesus Christ-Col 1:24, judge you.
Because of the nature of my job, I know a lot of people. Different individuals know each other, and continuously run into one another. There are those whom I mentally distinguish as being "control units" because they are effortlessly influential and very good at their jobs. These people are often vortexes, exciting to be around, because there is a swirl of activity surrounding them. One such individual is a deeply involved Dead Head, who actually is close to the band and can obtain incredible MP3 files right off the mixing boards at the concert venues. He shares these with those of us whom he knows have a very deep appreciation of the Grateful Dead, and "get" what they are doing on multiple levels through their music.
Twenty years ago, when we were discussing on a forum the many things that HWA taught which actually damaged his followers' lives, I added to the discussion the example of Jerry Garcia, who was very conscious of the members of his audience who hung on his every word, and deliberately refrained from commenting during the space between the songs so that there was no possibility of anyone becoming damaged from anything he said. He spoke through the band's music, instead.
Every time I see one of these retrospectives on the huge Feasts of Tabernacles of the past, I always wish that the entire church could experience a Grateful Dead concert. There are those who, without knowing anything about the band or its music, will most likely respond with stereotypical, or strawman comments, but they would be missing out on a truly transformational experience. There could not have been a Dead concert at any F/T while HWA was alive, because he would have realized that he did not stand a ghost of a chance in the face of such competition, but guru types such as HWA only want their people to experience their particular brand of enlightenment or transformation, so they deprive others of their freedoms through psychological techniques, such as convincing church members that they are the gateway to eternal life. Armstrongite leaders and teachers have positioned themselves in such a way as to "replace" Jesus Christ, and take on the responsibilities of the Holy Spirit.
I was grateful to see this blog entry here this morning, because I wondered how I could share these thoughts. Driving in my Impala to get my coffee, I had the latest USB thumb drive which my friend had given to me plugged into the sound system, and had the play sequence set on alphabetic order for the entire summer concert series which Dead and Co. just completed. As I listened to several versions of "Franklin's Tower", coming through those Bose speakers, I was thinking wouldn't it be wonderful if all surviving ACOG members could hear this instead of just one Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) sermon! What a joyous sabbath that would be, indeed! I know my friend who gave me the thumb drive is most likely sitting in Temple right now, attentively listening to the Rabbi, but I know what he's going to be listening to on his drive home, because that also informs him. When I did the sabbath thingie as a WCG member, it always seemed serendipitous, the music which would come in on the FM as we drove to services. One sabbath, Dylan's "Desolation Road" was the theme song for our drive. That seemed real appropriate, but how the symbolism of the lyrics related to HWA, GTA, and the other church leaders of those days is another discussion entirely! It even mentions "the Feast"!
There is no doubt the FOT pictures many things, and whether that includes the Millennium I'm not going to argue. But I do have a question:
Acts 3:19-20 states, "and He shall send Jesus Christ, whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restitution of all the things (the millennial rule) which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets".
If, according to Colossians 2:16, the festivals are shadows of things TO COME (not just "have come"), which festival foreshadows
--the second coming (yet to come)?
--the millennial reign (yet to come)?
--the harvest occurring at the end of the age, Matthew 13:39, (yet to come)?
Are not these themes great points of truth about Jesus Christ and part of HIS Gospel message?
As one has put it, "God cannot be contained". I would say the same goes for His festivals!
The ministers needed the $5000 feast check in order to buy quality booze. The little people can buy the cheap stuff.
I wonder what fake dr. Bob gives his criminal leaders in Africa?
Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 1:09:00 AM PDT said...
"The envious non successful Christians challenging the FOT was to be expected. It's like the serpent telling Adam and Eve that they will not die if they eat the forbidden fruit. Ignore these failed Christians, and enjoy the feast folks"
Stuff your condescension and submit some photos of your sacrifices and booth. I'll bet you're just another jerk who follows only the scriptures that are convenient to follow.
As Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 8:23:00 AM PDT said,
"Herbert Armstrong's FOT doesn't look anything like the one described in the twenty-third chapter of Leviticus, and that's all!"
As Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 8:23:00 AM PDT said,
If the feasts in the Hebrew Scriptures are “Armstrongist “ why are there other assemblies keeping them that are not descended from the RCG/WCG?
Why are they not also condemned as is the WCG here?
Just asking, if anyone knows the answer.
Preaching to the choir, or at least to the sympathetic:
Looking at the tripartite formula, the beginning and its goal, we have:
Lev 26:12 And I WILL walk among you, and will BE YOUR GOD, AND YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Ex 29:45 AND I WILL DWELL AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, and will be their God.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, AND THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE, and God himself shall be with them, AND BE THEIR GOD.
Between the beginning and goal there are two dispensations:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Eze 43:4 As the glory [kabod] of the LORD entered the temple by the gate facing east, (ESV).
Eze 43:7a And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever
The two dispensations are the Church and Kingdom Administrations of the NC.
Ac 2:2b and it [the Holy Spirit, v.3] filled all the house where they were sitting.
Eze 43:5b and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house
“"The Shekinah” is the "nearest Jewish equivalent to the Holy Spirit... The glory of God (kabod in the Heb. Bible, doxa in LXX and NT) is another name for the Shekinah..." (R. A. Stewart. "Shekinah," NBD, 2nd ed. pp.1101-02).
Acts 2 and Eze 43 picture the beginnings of both the Church and Kingdom Administrations of the NC.
God through Jesus Christ will have a dwelling presence in the Millennial Temple, just as he did in the Mosaic Tabernacle and Solomonic Temple; cp. also the Church temple type.
Eze 45:25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
From the Ezekialian Torah and Zechariah both Jew and Gentile will keep the FOT in the Messianic Age; (Jew used as a synecdoche for all Israel).
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
"Isn't it a complete violation of the biblical text, which is addressed to Israel and Judah, to steal the new covenant from its rightful recipients and apply it to the (primarily) Gentile church instead? Indeed, Brueggemann is correct in quoting the simple but acute statement of Paul M. Van Buren: "What was it that was to be new about it: Surely not a change of partners!... Brueggermann continues: "Such a supersessionist reading in fact asserts the rejection rather than the reconstitution of Israel, a point not on the horizon of these oracle"; he argue that the use of these verses in the book of Hebrews "provides a basis for a Christian preemption of the promise" and thereby "misreads and misinterprets the text," even claiming that "the supersessionist case is given scriptural warrant in the book of Hebrews. "My own inclination is to say that in our time and place the reading of Hebrews is a distorted reading, and we are back to the recognition of the Jewishness of the new covenant. At best, we may say that Christians come derivatively and belatedly to share the promise newness"...” (Michael L. Brown, Jeremiah, EBC, rev. Vol.7, p.402).
Part 2
"Certainly Bruueggeman is correct in rejecting the supersessionist interpretation of Jeremiah 31:31-34, but he has missed a crucial element of great theological importance in his understanding of the NT Scriptures, namely that the new covenant was made with the house of Israel. Jesus/Yeshua came with no other mission that to fulfill what was written of him in the Hebrew Scriptures as the promised Messiah (see, e.g., Lk 24:27, 44-45), choosing with clear intentionality twelve disciples (all Jewish, of course; see also Mt 19:28; Rev 21:12) and declaring himself to be the true vine (Jn 15:1) in definite contrast to the nation as a whole, which had become a corrupt vine (see Isa 51:1-7). And as Israel's Messiah, he inaugurated the new covenant at the Passover meal with his disciples before his death, and it is these men who announced the good news to their own Jewish people — exclusively, at first — after his resurrection...
"And it is the letter to the Hebrews — not to any of the Gentile churches — that quotes Jeremiah's new covenant oracle in full, applying it to Jewish followers of the Jewish Messiah. (Is the author of Hebrews presumably Jewish as well?) How can this be taken as "a Christian preemption of the promise"? It is no more "Christian" — in the sense of not-Jewish and not Israel — than is the application of the new covenant passages to the Qumran community by the authors of the Dean Seas Scrolls...
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Jer 3:17a At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem:
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
"On the contrary, it is only through Israel's calling to be a priestly nation and a light to the world — a calling that only sees its realization through the Messiah (cf. Mt 5:13-15; 1 Pe 2:9) — that Israel's new covenant is extended to the nations (something surely implied in the Jeremianic oracle itself, since the nations are called on to celebrate Israel's salvation in 31:7, while their own blessing is tied in with the restoration of God's people in 3:14-17; 4:1-2, as well as in other messianic texts such as Isa 2:1-4; 11:1-9).
"Brueggemann is correct in stating that "Christian participation [in the new covenant] is utterly grounded in Jewish categories and claims, and can have no participation on no other terms. Moreover, this Jewish mediation of newness is left open as an act of profound grace to all who come under these commandments and allegiance to this God." But the distinction between "Christian" and "Jewish" is overstated, as though the coming of the Messiah and the establishing of his community brought disjuncture and discontinuity rather than fulfillment and continuity” (Michael L. Brown, Jeremiah, EBC, rev. Vol.7, p.403).
Part 3
Ro 11:25a For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
"Follower of Jesus, then, whether Jewish or Gentile, do well to remember Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 11:26: "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." Thus living in this transition age, this time period of already/not yet, believers look back to the sacred and costly inauguration of Yahweh's new covenant with Israel through the cross, recognizing this as the very fountainhead of their hope and salvation, while they look ahead with great anticipation to its glorious culmination, also described by Paul and ending with the people with whom it began: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins' [Isa 59:20]" (Ro 11:25b-27)" (Michael L. Brown, Jeremiah, EBC, rev. Vol.7, p.403).
"The Jewish calendar is divided into the spring and fall holidays, corresponding to Yeshua's first and second comings... The long summer break corresponds to the present period when Yeshua is not on earth" (David Stern, Messianic Jew, Jewish New Testament Commentary, p.792).
“A definite chronological progression can be traced in the Feasts of Jehovah. The Sabbath takes us back to God's rest after creation. The Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread speak to us of Calvary. Next comes the Feast of Firstfruits, pointing to the resurrection of Christ. The Feast of Pentecost typifies the coming of the Holy Spirit. Then looking to the future, the Feast of Trumpets pictures the regathering of Israel. The Day of Atonement foreshadows the time when a remnant of Israel will repent and acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. Finally the Feast of Tabernacles sees Israel enjoying the millennial reign of Christ...
“The two Sabbaths may picture the Millennium and the Eternal Rest” (William McDonald, Plymouth Brethren, Bible Believers Commentary).
(Sabbaths should be Sabbathons, the latter are less holy than the Sabbath).
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever
It is suggested that the first day of tabernacles pictures the Messianic Age and the Last Great Day pictures the goal of God as expressed in the triparte covenant formula of Rev 21:3, a time when there will no more night - one great day.
Krischan,
I am attending the Feast and you are correct. It’s good to see some people, but those are getting fewer and fewer. Even still, it is largely unbearable.
7:01
You have confirmed my expectations. I think I would find it very difficult listen to messages that I know to be wrong. I also think that my "apostasy" in becoming a Christian would have a chilling effect on old relationships. No way to really recapture the past
Krischan
mishkan or sukkah?
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling [skenoo] among us. We have seen his glory [doxa], the glory [doxa] of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full [pleres] of grace and truth.
“... full of grace and truth may be simply another way of affirming that Jesus was “full of the Holy Spirit” (J. Ramsay Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, p.82).
Ex 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent [skene, LXX] of the congregation, and the glory [doxa, LXX] of the LORD filled [pletho, LXX] the tabernacle [Heb. mishkan, skene, LXX].
"The Word "lived for a while among us." Properly the verb signifies "to pitch one's tent;"... In Jewish ears the word might arouse other associations. The place of worship during the wanderings of Israel in the wilderness, the place where God had vouchsafed his presence, was "the Tabernacle," and that noun corresponds to the verb used here. That John wants us to recall God's presence in the tabernacle in the wilderness seems clear from the immediate reference to "glory," for glory was associated with the tabernacle. When, for example, it was first set up, "the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle" (Exod. 40:34)” (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, p.91).
“The writer’s community comes alive and begins to speak for itself: We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the father. Like Isaiah in the temple (cf. 12:41) like the three disciples at the Transfiguration (cf. Luke 9:32), the writer’s community had seen the glory of God displayed in Jesus Christ...” (J. Ramsay Michaels, John, NIBC, p.23).
“As the glory of God was once present in the tabernacle, so it was now present in the Word made flesh” (Colin G. Kruse, John TNTC, rev., p.63).
“It is possible that we should see other symbolism here also. There seems to be no doubt that John saw Jesus as a new and greater Moses...
"Many authors see a reference to the Sinai theophany rather than to the setting of the tabernacle. The point of contact with Exodus 33 are especially numerous:
Ex 33:7 Now Moses used to take the tabernacle [skene, LXX].
Ex 33:9 the pillar of cloud descended
Jn 1:14a the Word became flesh and tabernacled [skenoo] among us
Ex 33:10 all the people saw the pillar of cloud
Jn 1:14b we beheld his glory
Ex 33:11 Yahweh [kurios, LXX] spoke to Moses face to face
Jn 1:17 the law was given through Moses
Ex 33:20 you cannot see my face
Jn 1:18a no one has ever seen God
Ex 33:23 you will see my back; but my face shall not be seen
Jn 1:18b the only begotten Son ... has made him known
(Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, p.92).
"It is Christ or the Spirit that reveals the glory of God in the NT era. On various occasions in the life of Christ, we read of the glory of God appearing: at Christ's birth (Luke 2:9) and transfiguration (Luke 9:31), in his miracles (John 2:11), and thus at his second coming (Matt. 16:27; 25:31).
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord [kurios] of glory [doxa].
“Christ himself is described as the glory of God (1 Cor. 2:8; John 1:14)..." (Gordon J. Wenham, The Book of Leviticus, NICOT, p.151).
I am at a UCG site with my husband who is a member. I stopped attending years ago out of sheer spiritual boredom. Sadly, things are still status quo in regards to the speaker line up. I have heard some of the most atrocious speaking imaginable. I can’t imagine seven more days of this! How can people listen to this nonsense? The only thing I find beneficial is seeing some old friends. I am so grateful to no longer being held captive by these men.
BP8 at 12:08,
Good questions. I have always believed that HWA's understanding of F.O.T and Last Great Day (also the other Holy Days) makes sense. There is hope for those called and uncalled, every man in his own time order as ordained by God. I do not find this hope in traditional Christianity which cannot answer questions regarding the fate of those who are of the non-Christian faiths/atheists/others.
I have been to a Grateful Dead concert and while it was an interesting experience it wasn't anything like the FOT. The concert we saw was when they were promoting their "Blues For Allah" album. So, it had to be "76 or early "77.
I have been to numerous Feast sites since the early 80's. Some have been better than others.
The last few years my enthusiasm to travel has waned. Most of the messages from the various organizations are boring, scripted blather. Some of the older ministers need to have the plug pulled on them, and the younger guys mainly sound like non-threatening, (almost effeminate wimps).
I believe that the FOT/Succoth looks back to the Israelite wandering in the desert to the promised land as a symbol of our own journey through the valley of the shadow of death; Christ’s birth as He “tabernacled” with us; and the future Messianic era when God will be with us.
12:43
At one time I, too, thought that the idea of the One Hundred Year period was a gracious solution for the unevangelized. When I exited Armstrongism, one of the most difficult issues I collided with in the Christian realm was the idea that only a few would be saved. The idea of the great bulk of humanity being consigned to hell is quite popular among many Western theologians. All of this seems to emanate from a fellow named Augustine.
I no longer believe in the One Hundred Year Period. It is based on some iffy scriptures. Difficult to exegete. I do believe in Jesus as a great, competent and active saviour. And I believe he will do what he needs to do in order to save humanity. And I expect that this will include some kind of post-mortem evangelism.
Unlike what you state, all theologies have a position on what happens to the unevangelized. Usually, the view is that they are consigned to hell. That is the view of the pulpit. In the pews, you find that many (50 percent, I think) Christians believe in Inclusivism - that if you are a good person in a non-Christian religion you will be saved. C.S. Lewis believed in Inclusivism. I do not believe in that. I believe salvation is in the explicit knowing of Jesus only. There is a doctrine called The Harrowing of Hell in which Jesus brought knowledge of salvation and freedom to all of mankind in Hades at the time of his death - all those who lived before Jesus. I believe there will be some ongoing form of this - what some might call purgatory. Lewis also believed in a form of purgatory.
But a solution like purgatory is only what we might imagine. The absolute God has available to him mechanisms we cannot imagine. Jesus is a powerful salvator and he can make whatever accommodations that are necessary for mankind to be saved by grace through faith with repentance.
Scout
I'm a member of Biblical Archaeology Society and am subscribed to their Biblical Archaeology Review. This is an excerpt of what is in my email from BAS today:
"This week, the Biblical Fall Feasts culminate with the most joyful holiday on God's calendar—The Feast of Tabernacles!
"Today, more Christians recognize and participate in the Feast of Tabernacles than at any time since the first century. This is not a brand new phenomenon, but a rebirth of an old practice."
This email was sponsored by "I Am Israel." Articles on the significance of the holydays for Christians at their website here: https://iamisraelfilm.com/pages/articles
Consider: YouTube is overflowing with videos about the holydays. The vast majority don't appear to have any connection with HWA or any splinter. There is growing interest in understanding them and in Hebraic roots in general. Interest in the holydays is growing among televangelists, too. Perry Stone has been covering them for decades.
I am a senior religion major in one of the top public universities in the US. The Religion Department offers MS and PhD in religion in addition to the undergraduate degree. This is a robust unit at the university, established in the 1950s. Their treatment of the Hebrew Bible and New Testament isn't from a theological/seminary approach, but rather the critical studies orientation of a secular academic institution. My apocalyptic literature class is taught by a professor who was educated and previously taught in very high-profile theological universities, specifically those with an orientation toward Methodist and Churches of Christ. His professional career spans close to two decades. He has received numerous teaching awards from the university, student groups, and professional organizations. He has been prolific in publishing in professional journals, authored books and book chapters. He has presented at national academic conferences and produced sponsored contract and grant funding for the university. He serves the larger community through social justice activities and outreach. He is accomplished in every aspect. And every week in class we have time for a chat about what we are doing in our personal lives. He ALWAYS mentions that he is looking forward to his day of rest, Friday night until Saturday night. He is not Jewish. A student mentioned for the first time this year he is observing the festivals. He is not Jewish. His major is social work, and his career goal is to be a Christian counselor. He and our professor engaged in a lively discussion during class. It was enlightening to see those outside the HWA sphere excited about God's Sabbath and festivals.
Just saying, the inconvenient truth is that hating on the festivals of God requires casting a larger net, well beyond the little pond of HWA folks.
"The Last Great Day [John 7:37] is not the 8th day but the 7th day, the last day of the feast [Tishri 21] b/c the next day [John 7:37 - John 9:14] was a sabbath [Tishri 22], an annual sabbath, and Tishri 23 is never a sabbath. Therefore the last great day is/was Tishri 21, the next day Tishri 22 is/was the [annual] sabbath.
The lunar calculations of the [Jewish] calendar are God's, fixed from creation, and given to the Jews [Romans 3] to preserve. "Feasts" in Lev 23:2 is a mistranslation, should be "fixed times" [Hebrew "moeds"] as in the Tanakh. IMHO.
7:26, wrote "...hating on the festivals of God..."
Gimme a break. I don't think you get it. Nobody hates the festivals of God. The renditions of these holy days taught in Armstrongism do have their sociological issues.
What people object to is the fact that holy day observance has been made by Armstrongism a requirement for salvation. And holy day observance was obsoleted in the NT yet some continue in them as requirements. I think they can have pedagogical value. But they should not be used to displace Jesus, even a little bit.
The holy days exist and are fine when viewed from a certain perspective (Col 2:16-17) in the NT. But if mishandled can be devastating. Paul said of circumcision (which parallels all other continuting practices of the Torah as requirements for salvation) that "you are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace." This is serious stuff. So this cannot be simply reduced to the sound bite of "hating on the festivals".
Krischan
7:26,
I acknowledge and am pleased with interest in the Sabbath and festivals among traditional Christians. Indeed, I have always thought that ALL Christians would benefit from a greater familiarity with Torah (and I have advocated that position in numerous posts). Torah has MUCH to teach us about Jesus and his work on our behalf. I am NOT a hater of the festivals, but I do think that it is important that everyone understand and acknowledge that Christians are NOT obligated to observe these features of the OLD Covenant. You are conflating two different things with each other: understanding and appreciation with misinterpretation and obligation!
8:21 Tishri wrote:
“Tishri 23 is never a sabbath”
"Popular Judaism regards Rosh Hashanah as the date of the creation of the universe by God (Talmud: Rosh Hashanah 27a), but the Midrash notes that it occurred six days earlier, on the 25th of Elul...
"The Mishnah (Sanhedrin 38b) states that Adam and Eve were created six days later on Rosh Hashanah (i.e., Tishri 1)...
"According to Jewish tradition, this first "Friday" was the first Rosh Hashanah..." (Teshuvah and Creation, hebrew4christians.com).
According to Jewish tradition then Tishri 23 can fall on a Sabbath.
So what is your supporting evidence that in the time of Christ Rosh Hashanah couldn't fall on a Friday?
8:21 also writes:
“Feasts" in Lev 23:2 is a mistranslation, should be "fixed times".”
“the next day Tishri 22 is/was the [annual] sabbath.”
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbathon, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbathon.
You like to point out the “feasts” is a mistranslation and should be “fixed times”. But you keeping referring to annual sabbathons as sabbaths.
Sabbatons are not Sabbaths, which you are aware of, but you still refer to them as Sabbaths.
By calling Sabbathons, Sabbaths, it gives the impression that shabbatons have the same holiness as the sabbath - they do not.
Do you think that it is a little hypocritical that you want people to recognize the difference between haggim ("feasts") and non-haggim moedim but you don't make the distinction between Sabbaths and Shabbatons?
We?
You most certainly are a hater of God's festivals. You claim to know Jesus yet fail to acknowledge the Christology of the festivals.
3:07,
I'm afraid you have confused me with Herbert Armstrong - HE is the one who failed to acknowledge the Christology of the festivals (with the exception of Passover). HE is the one who ignored Jesus and insisted that the festivals pictured events in God's plan. I am the one who is advocating that ALL of these festivals point to CHRIST and his work on our behalf.
BP8 writes:
“As one has put it, "God cannot be contained". I would say the same goes for His festivals!”
Some thoughts:
With the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gift of His spirit a higher standard of holiness is required under the NC. This is reflected in the NC worship system:
Eze 43:12a This is the torah of the temple
"Ezekiel introduces rigor into the separation and gradations of areas in the sanctuary precincts; moreover, his requirements are more stringent than those of the Pentateuch...
"Ezekiel's program is a revision - and up-dating and a rectification - of selected topics of existent priestly legislation and practice very similar to, if not identical with, that of the Pentateuch..." (Moshe Greenberg, "The Design and Themes of Ezekiel's Program of Restoration," pp.233-35).
Looking briefly at some aspects of the worship system:
The sacred year begins with the cleansing of the Temple from sin-generated impurities on the first and seventh days of the first month; not in the seventh month as under the OC. This is in preparation of a new year of worship and for the Passover.
Eze 45:22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a purification offering.
The Passover is now a public occasion. Also instead of a lamb/goat the sacrificial animal is a “bullock”; and instead of the sacrifice being a sacrifice of well-being it is now a purification offering. In regard to the latter:
“Thus, while the Passover, the most fundamental of all Israelite celebrations, is retained in Ezekiel's new religions order, its nature and significance has been changed... Whereas the function of the original Passover sacrifice was apotropaic (to ward off Yahweh), however, Ezekiel's is purgative” (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-28, NICOT, p.666).
The feast of Unleavened Bread is also retained. Under the OC, as specified for those days, 2 bull burnt offerings were offered each day for a total of 14. In the NC it will 7 per day, giving a total of 49.
Ezekiel refers to ‘tabernacles’ as the feast of the seventh month. Under the OC, 70 bulls were specified, diminishing in number over the seven days. In the NC ‘tabernacles’ follows UB in that are to be seven bull burnt offerings over seven days giving the total of 49.
New Covenant - ‘Renewed' Feasts - New Reality
“Hereafter there shall be a new Passover (v.21) and a new Feast of Tabernacles (v.25; Zech 14, 16-19) observed in Israel, with ceremonies vastly exceeding in glory those of the same feasts under the Old Testament. The anti-typical, perfect and external realities of Christ’s manifested kingdom shall be set forth with observances ... which shall bring out all the heretofore hidden glories and excellencies of that law, viewed in its essential spirit...” (A.R. Fausset, Ezekiel, JFB, Vol.2, Pt.2, p.373).
Suggested Additional Meaning to the Millennial Animal Sacrifices
“It is the work of the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal God the Father (John 1:18; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3) and to bring people to the Father (John 14:6). Ultimately, the Lord’s work will be to apply the teaching He received from the Father (John 5:20). The Son revealed the Father in His first-advent incarnation (John 1:18; 17:4). Accordingly, it makes sense to understand that the Son will reveal the Father with His work that follows His second advent. Simply stated, the Lord Jesus Christ has been revealing the Father since creation. Why would He stop doing that in the Millennium?...
“Whereas Old Testament animal sacrifices were shadow-Christology, millennial animal sacrifices will be shadow-Paterology” (Bob Bolender, Memorials and Shadows Animal Sacrifices of the Millennium, chafer.edu/journal/back_issues/v8n2_2.pdf).
I too visited a UCG Michigan service in 2019 and I got sick 🤢 when one guy there still tried to support Steven Allwine after the investigation & verdict were finished.
The thing is, dude with the unpronounceable name, people are no longer guided by normal propriety or paradigms. It's even worse in the splinters where the ministers have joined the kook-a-boos and are teaching their nonsense.
Honestly, I never understood the rationale behind fellowship even back when I was a member when things were relatively normal. If I wanted to know the opinions of anyone I might meet or talk to, all I had to do is read the Plain Truth, Good News, or literature, and I knew exactly what any of the brethren might have to say about any topic. They were all part of the borg. I never really had any friends in the WCG, they were all just people I tolerated. When I left, it was good riddance!
2:01
I do not base any belief on Jewish traditions [Mark 7] but hopefully scripture. Belief is only the lunar calculations of the Jewish Calendar are fixed from creation: Ps 104:19: the moon was made for fixed times [better translation than "seasons"].
You are right about sabbaths and sabbathons, will attempt to distinguish in the future.
OK about the use of shabbaton [anapausis, LXX] in the future.
From “JEWISH CALENDAR IN THE ROMAN PERIOD: IN SEARCH OF A VIABLE CALENDAR SYSTEM”:
“Because the history of the Jewish calendar is enshrouded in mystery, the Jewish sages of the Middle Ages took differing attitudes toward the significance of the calendar. In the fierce polemics about the calendar which broke out in 922 CE in the Jewish community, Babylonian Jewish leader Saadiya Gaon of Baghdad claimed that "the calendar was given to Jews at Mount Sinai" and thus is sacred, unchangeable, eternal... (p.2).
“EPILOGUE
“Anyway, in 360 or in 776 CE the "theory of others" gave way to the Molad system used in the modern Jewish calendar. This means that the Jewish calendar passed through three different phases in its development: 8 year cycle -> Epact system -> Molad. All three are principally different. The first system, the "corrected 8 year cycle," is purely empirical, whereas the second system was tied to the Roman civil calendar. Only the last, modern system dropped the goal "to conform" altogether, concentrating exclusively on the lunar part of the calendar, leaving its solar part to pay the price of the natural vicissitudes of a 19 year luni-solar cycle.
“The circumstances behind the introduction of an 8 year cycle were not unique to the period of 170-220 CE - Jews experienced the same difficulties between the two great revolts of 66-70 and 132-35 CE. At that earlier time Jewish leaders were people whom Jewish tradition venerates as the most brilliant people of Talmudic period: Rabbi Akiba and his friends. Because there are some implicit hints in Talmud about Rabbi Akiba's use of the 8 year cycle, one can conclude that this cycle was used by the Jewish community in the time of emergency and that it became usable at least 100 years earlier than Julius Africanus' remark.
“These two additional systems destroy any basis for Saadia Gaon's claim that the "Jewish calendar originates from Mount Sinai." Otherwise one is puzzled why Jewish leaders in the era after the destruction used other systems. However, this conclusion awards us much more — it brings back the calendar's history. It also changes the perception of Jewish intellectual history between the 2nd and the 10th century, which now can be seen not solely as a chain of Talmudic studies but also as a continuous search for the most viable calendar. This search often was not straightforward and — as numerous instances witness — was rich with internal conflicts and excommunications.
“Another conclusion is that the Talmud hides much more than it displays and that the final redaction by Rav Ashi resulted in the elimination of large pieces of historical data (like the use of an 8 year cycle). As we will show in subsequent papers, after the year 359 the Jewish calendar followed a long and painful path of adjustments, introducing different dekiyot (rules for postponing the new year), fixing the Molads (the points in time for counting the calendar moons), and finally choosing the first Molad -- the year of Creation. This process was slowed down by Saadia Gaon's intervention and was over by the time of Hai Gaon [939-1038]" (Ari Belenkiy, JEWISH CALENDAR IN THE ROMAN PERIOD: IN SEARCH OF A VIABLE CALENDAR SYSTEM, Mathematics Department, Bar-Ilan University, Israel), pp.27-28).
8:21 wrote:
"The Last Great Day [John 7:3] is not the 8th day but the 7th day, the last day of the feast [Tishri 21] b/c the next day [John 7:37 - John 9:1] was a sabbath [Tishri 22], an annual sabbath, and Tishri 23 is never a sabbath...”
This is somewhat confusing for me.
Jn 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
When you say that the next day was a sabbath are you linking this with Jn 9:14?
"When the sabbath is mentioned in the OT or the NT with no contextual qualifications, the weekly sabbath is intended" (F.F. Bruce, The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians, NICNT, p.115).
The sabbath in 9:14 & 16 is the seventh day of the week. The eighth day is a sabbathon.
Tishri 23 occurred before the Sabbath following the eighth day/Shemini Atzeret of the last FOT attended by Jesus, see below.
Some background:
Jn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jn 9:1 And [kai] as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth
Jn 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
"There is no time note. John does not relate this incident to others in the story, and we are left to guess at its place in the sequence. Hoskyns says that the incident took place on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, but this is pure assumption. It is likely that some time has elapsed since the attempt on Jesus' life (8:59), but more than this we cannot say" (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Rev. NICNT, p.424).
Jn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried,...
Jn 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
"Despite the efforts of copyists to link what happens next to what preceded at the Tent festival, it is best to view this chapter as a new story. The narrative is linked only very loosely to the preceding discourse by the conjunction "And" (kai, v.1). There is no way to know how long it was after the autumn Tent festival and Jesus' departure from the temple (8:59) that the events described here are supposed to have taken place. All that we are told is that by 10:22 "it was winter," and that the time of the Dedication festival (now known as Hanukkak) had come. Presumably the events of 9:1-10:21 come somewhere between the two festivals, but except for the notice that the healing of the blind man took place on a Sabbath (see 9:14), no time frame is given" (J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John, NICNT, pp.538-39).
“The opening phrase of 9:1, “as he walked along,” is vague, providing no concrete time of location for the story that is about to unfold, suggesting that the Fourth Evangelist intends the story of the blind man to be read in continuity with the preceding chapters. Jesus’ claim to be the light of the world (8:12) is repeated in 9:5, and the healing miracle in chap. 9 stands as a demonstration of this claim. In addition, the Mishnah identifies Siloam, the water in which the blind man bathes (v.7), as the source of the water of libations of the Tabernacles feast [See m. Sukka. 4:10]” (Gail R. O’Day, The Gospel of John, NIB, Vol.9, pp.652-53).
While we both agree that Christ was killed on a Friday we disagree with the year. My present understanding is AD30 and yours is AD33.
In this instance it does not matter which year it is as it relates to the preceding FOT — for me AD 29 was the year and presumably for you AD 32.
According to Herman Heine Goldstine — New and Full Moons 100BC to AD1651 — in AD 29 the new moon occurred on September 26, which was a Monday; and in AD32 it was on September 23, which was a Tuesday.
So in both years, AD 29 & 32, the next day after Shemini Atzeret was not a Sabbath. So Morris’ observation “that some time has elapsed since the attempt on Jesus' life” (8:59) is appro.
"When you say that the next day was a sabbath are you linking this with Jn 9:14?"
Yes. According to Biblehub.com the Greek for that sabbath is a sabbaton but for the sabbath of John 7:22 the Greek is sabbato (less one letter!). The two Greek words do appear different when written in Greek.
"Tishri 23 occurred before the Sabbath following the eighth day/Shemini Atzeret of the last FOT attended by Jesus..."
I agree. A Friday.
I agree Jesus died on a Friday, Nisan 14. 33 AD. [In 30 AD Nisan 14 was Wednesday.] So then I had to grapple with "3 days, 3 nights". When? After considering Mark 14:30 and that those days/nights could be part or whole I've concluded days were calendar days: part Nisan 14, all of Nisan 15, part Nisan 16. Nights: a few minutes of the darkness Friday afternoon, all of Friday night, part Sat night.
10:05 writes:
"In 30 AD Nisan 14 was Wednesday."
No it wasn't.
If you project the modern Hebrew calendar back to Jesus' days then you arrive at that date.
But the modern Hebrew calendar was not in use then.
"... unless all indications are deceitful, they did not in the time of Jesus Christ possess as yet any fixed calendar, but on the basis of a purely empirical observation, on each occasion they began a new month with the appearing of the new moon...” (Emil Schurer, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ, First Division, Vol. 2, p.366).
"The present Hebrew calendar is the product of evolution... The principles and rules were fully codified by Maimonides in the Mishneh Torah in the 12th century" (Wikipedia, Hebrew Calendar).
When one does an internet search on the calendar it is disappointing/exasperating to see the ACOGs projecting the modern Hebrew calendar on the first century AD.
The Astronomical New Moon Conjunction occurred on Wednesday, March 22 AD 30 at 8:00pm Baghdad time (so Herman Heine Goldstine).
"By way of comparison, John P. Meir agrees that for all practical purposes, the choice for the year of the death of Jesus is between A.D. 30 and 33, and he thinks that A.D. 30 is more likely, with Friday Apr 7, A.D. 30 the probable day and year; while Harold W. Hoehner, Paul L. Maier, and Paul Kerestes place death on Friday, Apr 3, A.D. 33, as we too prefer" (Jack Finegan, Handbook of Bible Chronology, p.362).
I also don't agree with your ‘count' of the three days and three nights - you read the Bible too literally.
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
"The Jews counted parts of days as whole days. Thus the three days would include part of Friday afternoon, all of Saturday, and Sunday morning. A similar way of reckoning time is seen in Jn 20:26 (lit. "after eight days," NIV "a week later"); two Sundays are implied, one at each end of the expression" (W. Harold Mare, 1 Corinthians, NIVSB, p.1755).
[Someone on this blog noted that Tuesday was “eight days later”. But not according to Hebraic inclusive reckoning, cp. the count from Pentecost].
E. G. Richards, Calendars
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/downloads/c15_usb_online.pdf:
The codified Jewish calendar as we know it today is generally considered to date from about 359, though the exact date is uncertain.
Jewish calendrical practices before that are uncertain. The earliest evidence indicates a calendar based on observations of the phases of the new moon at Jerusalem. Since the Bible mentions seasonal festivals, there were probably intercalations. There was probably an evolution of conflicting calendrical practices...
During the period of the Sanhedrin the calendar was observational; months began with sightings of the crescent of the new moon. A committee of the Sanhedrin met to evaluate reports of sightings. If sightings were not possible, the new month was begun 30 days after the beginning of the previous month. Decisions on intercalation were influenced, if not determined entirely, by the state of vegetation and animal life. Although eight-year, nineteen year, and longer-period intercalation cycles may have been instituted at various times prior to Hillel II, there is little evidence that they were employed consistently over long periods. The Sanhedrin was entrusted to run the calendar and only its members knew how to do it.
After the Diaspora, this arrangement became unworkable; by the time news of sightings at Jerusalem reach outlying Jewish communities, the start of the months was well past. The patriarch Hillel II is credited with reforming this state of affairs by disseminating codified rules, which anybody, anywhere, could follow.
The exact details of Hillel's calendar have not survived... Up to the tenth century A.D., however, there was disagreement about the proper years for intercalation and the initial epoch for reckoning years.
does anyone know if it's fun having the FOT in spring...like it is now in Brazil, Argentina, NZ, South Africa? I used to get slightly bummed out seeing leaves fall up here post-feast...but maybe it's amazing having FOT down there, when trees are budding
The lunar calculations: fixed from creation (I'm not asking any to believe this). There were maybe centuries when nobody knew them. Men of Issachar may have know them-1Chron 12:32. Abraham probably knew them. Jews today "have" them.
You think man devised a calendar, 12 months in some years, 13 months in other years in a 19 year cycle in 3rd,6,8,11,14,17,19th years, in 13 month years add a day to the 12th month, postpone a day or so based on a "molad"? Don't believe man has the brilliance, the mental capacity, to devise such a calendar.
Observe a crescent when there are clouds? After observing where are the rules in the Bible to develop a calendar based on observations? By whom? Where?
So you don’t accept these Jewish observations?
therefinersfire.org/new_moon_determination.htm:
"The astute reader will note a curious lack of scripture citation in this article! That's because there are no scriptures telling us how to determine the beginning of a new month! None! Just as there are no scriptures telling us how to determine the new year, or the day! Do not believe it if someone says "Scripture tells us the month begins with the sighted moon"! That claim is simply not true...
It was the responsibility of the body of Levites assigned the duty (and later the Great Sanhedrin)...
The great sage, Maimonides, wrote in the 12th century CE:
Each month the moon disappears and becomes invisible for about two days, or somewhat more or less - for about one day at the end of the old month, before it reaches its conjunction with the sun, and for about one day after its conjunction with the sun. Then it reappears in the evening in the west, and this night, on which it becomes visible in the west after its disappearance, is the beginning of the month. From this day on 29 days were counted, and if the new crescent appeared on the night of the 30th day, this 30th day was the first day of the new month. If, however, it did not appear on that night, the 30th day would belong to the old month and the 31st day would be the first day of the new month. And no matter whether the moon did or did not appear in the night of the 31st day, no attention was paid to it, for the lunar month never lasts longer than thirty days. (From "Sanctification of the New Moon", Maimonides, about 1175 CE).
Maimonides went on to say that it was the court which held the responsibility to establish the month and that the responsibility of the two witnesses was only to validate that the crescent was seen. The sighting of the crescent only established that the assumed 30th day of the month, just ending at that sunset, was instead the 1st day of the month. If the crescent was not seen at sunset the 30th, of course then that sunset became the 1st of the new month and the crescent would be seen at the next sunset, which began the 2nd. Therefore, the value of the witnesses was not to establish that the new month had just begun, but only to validate the new month. This was called "sanctification" of the new month.
* [Rabbi] Arnold A. Lasker and Daniel J. Lasker, Behold, A Moon Is Born! rabbinicalassembly.org:
The Mishnaic tractate Rosh Hashanah describes the way in which the calendar was determined IN THE DAYS BEFORE THERE WAS THE SET, CALCULATED CALENDAR WHICH WE HAVE TODAY. Witnesses would appear before the Sanhedrin each month to testify that they had seen the "new moon." They were carefully cross-examined and, if the judges were satisfied, the Sanhedrin proclaimed the beginning of a new month. It was a privilege and a source of joy for two Jews to bring testimony that they had seen the "new moon" in the sky and to hear the Court declare, on the basis of their report, that the old month had given way to a new one.
The rationale for the practice of declaring the new month on the basis of observation was found in the midrashic interpretation of the verse, "Ha-hodesh ha-zeh lakhem rosh hodashim." (Exodus 12:2). It was understood to mean that God showed Moses the "new moon" in the sky (Ha-hodesh ha-zeh = this "new moon") and told him that, in the future, that would be the signal to declare a new month. (Lakhem rosh hodashim = [shall be] for you [the basis for determining] the beginning of months.)10
10 See Mekhilta, Pisha, 2 (Lauterbach translation, vol. 1, pp. 15-16) and Rashi on Ex.12:2. The basic rules regarding the witnesses and the Sanhedrin are found in Mishnah Rosh Hashanah, chapter8 1-2. See also Maimonides, H. Qiddush Ha-hodesh, 1-3.
5:07PM
Yep. I’ve never experienced a FOT in the autumn and actually love having the FOT and my birthday in the spring! :-) Mind you if I could I’d be perpetually traveling chasing the sun so I’d have Passover in the northern hemisphere spring, Pentecost in the northern hemisphere summer and then Trumpets to 8th Day in the southern hemisphere spring!
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